Bitcoin Forum

During the last few months I've been tagging people who sell illegally obtained (stolen/hacked) gift cards. Until recently I had been doing so only to people who explicitly admit so or when there's no doubt about it. However most sellers won't just admit it, they say "don't worry, they're legit" and that's it. But it's clear selling cards for half the price smells like fraud. I've asked some of them to contact a very trusted member and prove to them (not to me) the cards are legal by presenting some evidence or explaining the method to them after getting their word they won't disclose anything except whether or not it's legal; of course I haven't got any results.

I strongly believe people who sell these illegal cards are hurting bitcoin by making it look like it works only/mainly for illegal purposes. Even if users here don't get scammed, someone else was before in order to make the whole business possible. There could be exceptions like people taking advantage of a promo code known only by a few, or similar; people who sell only one or two cards they got as a gift would be safe too. But those who sell an apparent endless supply of several kind of cards with a big discount and refuse to explain to anybody how they got them must be stopped.

Please let me know what you think. If most trusted users disagree with me or if I get valid arguments against it then I'll stop my campaign against them. Otherwise I'd ask other users -mainly DT members- to help.

You should join the "HateLeague" , which at the moment has 3 DT members , me , Lutpin and sho along with james and whywefight[QS is supposed to be in it too, but haven't recieved any confirmation from him, but pretty sure he's in with the "Tag the money launderers"as well]. I for one would be willing to tag them

I agree with whywefight on that topic (one of the reasons why he is in my trustlist). He's got a rather radical take on cleaning the digital goods section.
For what it's worth, you got my support in your campaign.

Im all green with the campaign as well. Those cards are definitely illegal (mostly carded) so most of them opt to selling them off half price. Thing is, many people buy em as well, till they get scammed that is. Previously, the half priced starbucks gift card populated the digital goods section. If this shit goes on, theymos might as well rename this forum to hackforums2.org.

This is starting great, I just got the retaliation even before leaving my due negative on that account. ;D

There is no effective way of stopping only those that sell such cards. This is where the problem lies. Either we ban all gift card sales or we continue with the endless fight (from the staffs perspective).

I guess a coordinated effort from DT members should have an effect. However, the name is awful.

Blame MonetaCoin :D

So every one will be under investigation by the new forum gestapo or just active sellers?
Be careful that you do not become the issue of the forum by doling out your brand of justice here.
Its a slippery slope and I know a lot of the ole folk use multiple accounts to push things and make people feel stupid for saying contrary.

Having to prove legitimacy is a interesting issue. If I was questioned out of the blue by pm by some one that is not in the transaction,I would tell them to piss off! Its one thing to ask but another to neg rep a person because they do not play your brand of baseball.
Would it not be fair to list all alt accounts and business you transact in as well if you want clarity?

+1 goodwin point, well done. Reply 7 and the discussion is already over. Its a joke, but it was probably unreasonable to assume that it would not be used as an argument esp. since there is an austrian involved.

I personally will not actively hunt down carders, but when I see things I think deserve a warning I will issue one. Most recent example would be closed thread sales.

Since I myself sell gift cards, I wouldn't agree with banning the sale of git cards on the forum. However, there are some obvious users who trade illegal gift cards as well as keys that are bought from stolen credit cards and they sell it at 20-25% face value. I would like that it should stop but still there is no way to prove they are illegit unless the websites are contacted and informed about the same. Also, there are many members who buy these illegally obtained gift cards. Don't get what they get out of it.

I don't agree that it will hurt bitcoins as mainly CC's are used for the purchase of these gift cards and not bitcoins. Don't get what's hurting bitcoins in all this.

Don't care about the name, don't care if people selling legit cards have a hard time.  At least something worthwhile is being done to combat this.  Let the folks selling gift cards sell them on another forum is what I would argue.  There's waaaaay too much potential for abuse.  There are too many carders and crackers running about and they're quite obviously not going to tell the truth about their cards' provenance.

Personally I do think banning the sell of giftcards would help a lot but it's very arguable I guess. But at least coordinated effort from DT members against clearly illegal carders will help.

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Only those who actively sell illegal goods would be "under investigation". As I said in OP selling several kinds of giftcards for 50% off or similar clearly seems illegal so sellers need to prove it's not. It's not like I'm proposing considering everyone guilty until proven otherwise. If you run a business that clearly looks illegal then you can't just ignore any PM asking about it. If you don't want to be bothered by that kind of PMs then just don't a run any business that clearly seems illegal.

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I think it hurts BTC's reputation because if someone new to bitcoin comes here and sees most goods being sold seem illegal then that will reinforce the stereotype "bitcoin is only for illegal stuff".

Oh well. Bitcoins too are used for money laundering and is still not considered legal in any country. What's your argument for this? Doesn't it have potential for abuse? Aren't there way too many scammers out here? What about account sales? Aren't people scamming by buying accounts with reputation? Forget about signature campaigns and spammers. There are numerous ways of money laundering on this forum and too much to say about all of them.

The obviously illegal products are already banned on the forum and users who were selling illegal methods/guides were warned about the same. Red trust is the best way to get rid of such sellers.


Even when I came to this forum, I was asked if my cards are bought via illegal methods and I never knew that people could buy these cards via hacked cards. I never blamed bitcoins for it but rather the users who are buying/selling such gift cards. No currency is bad if it's used for illegal purposes but instead we should only blame the people misusing it. Scammers would scam using any method and not only make use of bitcoins.

I think so too. But if you really think about it. This just cant be helped. People would almost always find away to get things their way. Even if that would mean going through the illegal stuff.

I think the discount is a strong way of detecting these carded gift cards.  When you see GiftCards at 75 percent... there is a reason on most there are very few people are normally willing to let go for 3/4 of value.  Another good way is asking to see receipt of paying with cash... but arguably this could be defeated.     

Sadly I think this is a moot point as some are obviously ok with buying carded CG... which is honestly sad.  It should catch up with them eventually companies do track addresses of where carded items were sent to.

True but tagging them would at least make it more difficult to them and/or slow their illegal business and/or at least push their business to another site, protecting somehow bitcoin's reputation.

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I don't think it's a moot point. If most non-GC-seller trusted users agree it should be stopped then we can reach an agreement and try to stop them. Of course not everyone will agree.

Great move! I am in!

Think you where already mentioned in OPs open address. ;)

If this is about bitcoins reputation around the web,there are a lot of other areas I would target as well.
Racism,sexism and homophobia are great places to work on if you want to change bitcoin into more of a mainstream tool.

Lending is also a predatory business that mostly goes after the people that are going through a rough patch or are stuck there.
So if we want to eliminate giftcard scammers,we should also be looking to wipe that aspect clean.
If thats the case maybe the transacting in accounts as well,because that to leads to scamming and misleading posts.
Maybe limit one account per person and be done with it.
Create a peon system where only the anointed few at the top can select one lucky account to move from Junior to member where he must suck hole for 2 years to become full member.
If shady business is the real issue wipe the whole aspect out,not just something that detracts from other business ventures.

When you create this it will turn off more people then you think. Already a bit of a issue with a closed shop mentality on some sides of the forum.
Add a lynch mob with powers and its a quick ride to the bottom. But I know I am in the few on this thinking and will let others speak.


Also suffer from paranoia ;D

It's mainly with Amazon and Starbucks (most of the gift cards are from starbucks) and these websites should be able to detect these gift cards when they are redeemed and take immediate action. Amazon is quicker in cancelling these illegal cards but some are just too fast in getting their product. Selling at 75% off and mentioning that cards will expire does help in detecting such scammers as Amazon and Starbucks cards never expire.


It's not about non-GC-sellers or those who sell gift cards agreeing or disagreeing. The point here is why punish those who are selling their legit gift cards due to scammers/illegal card dealers. When Amazon/Starbucks have not removed the option to pay with a CC even though many use stolen cards, it doesn't seem logical for the forum to stop all the sales. When people suggested that newbies should not be allowed to post in Digital Goods/Currency Exchange sections, I too opposed that as not all newbies are scammers. Stopping all sales/exchanges doesn't make illegal sales/exchanges stop.

It seems both of you are somewhat off-topic:

@Zeke2345, let's focus on stopping giftcard money laundering for the moment. We can leave the rest for other threads. Feel free to create them if you think they're required.

@erikalui, while I do think we should ban selling gift cards and you clearly do not this is not the subject of this thread. I do agree it's arguable and I don't want to even get into that.
As stated on OP the subject here is stopping the sellers who clearly sell illegally obtained cards. It seems to me you agree on that.

I already posted what i think here https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1338474.0 and i still stand for it. The forums policy "benefit of the doubt" is just stupid. Looking at meta when the administration thinks we have an issue with activity points makes me scream.

I stopped reporting single threads and switched to bulk report threads with clear evidence. Maybe you guys remember the two big wipeouts. Currently i am collecting urls.

I switched to "find some proof mode" but in the last days i headed over to: if i have a doubt ill -ve them. This thread just makes me think: i should do it to everything that seems shady.

Sadly i did not have a lot of time the last days, i think i will review the sections in a few hours. There are plenty of places who ppl are welcomed to sell their stolen, cracked, carded and hacked stuff, but not here!

Thx EcuaMobi!

Yes, I too agree such sales should be stopped and users selling such gift cards should be warned and negated so that they stop such sales. Also, buyers should be given some kind of warning so that they too refrain from supporting these sales.

I applaud you if you and others can get the carded GC's out of here somehow.  My meaning was it is a moot point as there are sadly obviously buyers out there for it.  Willing to take a cheap GC knowing it's carded.   

But if you are able to get even some of them off the market I do think it is a good cause.   It's not something we want people to associate forum with.

OP tagged me a scammer when I wanted to do a PayPal transaction. No worries, I only deal with LocalBitcoin now. To point, yes I know that GC reselling is a problem and they are scammers out there, but there really isn't anything that can be done. This forum is pretty far down the hill.

'MonetaLeague' would have been more fitting in this case.

You don't.

I understand that, but I don't make the rules. Some people like to give legit sellers a chance.

Even though I'd support such a ban, it is not up to me nor do I see this happening in the foreseeable future.

Agreed with you, all of this kind of thing must be stopped. But the thing is, how to stop people from doing that? It's impossible if we just telling them not do it, they certainly will do it again. If we just give them a red trust, they can still make another account or buy another one.

That one guy is having a hard time here...

I've seen your trust rating left on this user (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=248833), to me, your actions are ridiculous, I've seen people give 20% discounts on things before without you or anyone else taking any action, but, if it is giftcards, you suspect it is fraud?
You literally have no evidence against these people
I'm sorry that people from third world countries work hard to gain these giftcards then sell them at a discount to turn their money quickly
I also see other people following you, giving negs without any evidence whatsoever

But hey, if you think what you think should alter everyone's perception, then go ahead, make ratings without having ground to stand on

Excellent point (pun intended)

I was in Brazil where there were no Canadian banks. Only way to convert Paypal to Bitcoin was through this forum, and EucaMobi left negative feedback. Guilty before proven innocent, is how OP sees things.

The only argument is always: other do it or have it done before. Whyyyy not them???

Well its a start. Feel free to call out those user who are doing shady stuff in your opinion.

He would have just said so when asked. That's clearly not the case. Do you honestly think he buys/gets cards and sells them at a loss instead of avoid getting them in the first place? Granted everything at all is possible but extremely unlikely!

In any case as I said before it's not like I'm assuming guilty until proven otherwise nor am I asking others to do so. I'm targeting only those who seem extremely suspicious. And it'd be easy for them to explain how they're getting the codes. They can explain it to an escrow or other very trusted member and be clean.

But of course most users won't be able to explain it clearly.

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I left feedback on your profile not because you tried to deal with paypal. You being in Brazil has nothing to do with anything. I did it because you tried to buy trust ("Want to buy Bitcoin with PayPal and earn positive trust (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1258856.0)")  and it was just neutral!
Several times people get negative trust for trust farming.

A couple things that you should keep in mind when deciding if someone is actually laundering money (or being an accomplice thereof) via gift cards:

*Gift cards are not as fungible as cash is. With an Amazon gift card, I can only buy something that is sold by Amazon, and I have to pay shipping if my order is not large enough and/or if I don't have prime. With cash on the other hand, I can buy anything from anywhere provided that I have enough money
*Because of the above fact anyone considering to buy a gift card is going to want to pay less then the face value for gift cards. The value that buyers are willing to pay is going to depend on the reputation of the seller as well as the store the gift card is for. A $100 gift card to Amazon is probably going to sell for more then a $100 gift card to Home Depot because there is a much wider variety of products that can be purchased with the Amazon gift card then the Home Depot GC.
*I believe there to be a number of websites that facilitate the trade of various gift cards that "guarantee" each trade and have certain safeguards in place to prevent sellers from selling stolen gift cards and/or gift cards purchased with stolen  credit cards and/or other forms of fraud
*There are a number of examples of when I may have a gift card that I am willing to sell a gift card for less then face value that does not involve any kind of fraud/money laundering:

• I received a $50 Amazon Gift card from my Aunt/Uncle/ect. for Christmas/my Birthday/ect.
• I just purchased $x thousand dollars worth of appliances/supplies from Home Depot for a new patio and was given a $500 Home Depot gift card to entice me to come back for my next project
• As an incentive for me renewing my contract with AT&T, I was given a $100 gift card to Target
• I participated in a promotion at Walmart in which I receive a $25 Gift card after spending $x dollars in one trip
• ect.

In addition to the above, I may have purchased a gift card at a discount from a site that offers buyer protections/guarantees against gift cards that are purchased with stolen Credit Cards (and other fraud) and I am attempting to flip them for a profit.

When leaving negative trust for someone who is potentially laundering money via stolen Gift Cards, good judgment should be used. If I just had a birthday then I might have $200-$300 worth of gift cards for sale in varying amounts. I also might be purchasing gift cards on an above mentioned site attempting to flip/resell gift cards that I have good reason to believe are not purchased with stolen funds (note: this is very different then outright not knowing where the gift cards came from and/or saying "I don't know" if stolen credit cards(/ect) were used to purchase the gift cards).

It is also possible that, even though I know that a gift card was purchased with legit funds that I want to limit the amount of time that I am liable in the off-chance that something does go wrong with the gift card. From what I have seen, many sellers call this the "warranty period". A gift card with a 3 day warranty is obviously purchased with stolen funds, the same is true for a one week warranty or a 10 day warranty. A warranty closer to a month would have a better indication that the GC are not stolen/laundered, and a warranty that can be measured in multiple months (and is being sold by someone with a strong trading reputation) would make me more certain that stolen funds are not being used to purchase the gift cards. The actual threshold of when a GC is laundered or not is going to be a judgment call.

Regardless of the above, more or less anyone selling Starbucks Gift Cards is laundering money, period.

I am not able to vouch for any Gift Card sellers, however I don't think that anonymous22 is laundering money via Gift Cards.

kashish948 on the other hand has long been on my radar, and TC even left him a negative several months ago, although it was mostly based on speculation and was removed after a week or so.

I generally agree with you Quickseller. Of course this is not exact science, but the "benefit of the doubt" has exonerated too many untrustworthy users here.

None of these examples covers having a seemingly unlimited supply of several kind of cards. As I said on OP that's a big red flag. anonymous22 is selling 14 kinds (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1321834.0) of cards and offers to get a lot of others too. It's very hard to believe they are obtained by legal means.

I've applied my best judgement here and of course I could be wrong. Fortunately removing a feedback is even easier than adding it. I've asked him to prove the origin of their cards to any very trusted user asking him not to disclose the method itself. I added the negative trust only after he refused. However the offer is still opened and I'll remove the feedback as soon as a very trusted member confirms the method is legal.

We disagree on this point but I recognize I can't be 100% sure. But he, you and everyone else must recognize how easy it would be for him to prove he's not doing anything wrong, right?

anonymous22 has a shady past. He was reselling bad cards and made a fuss over refunding. Negative feedback was removed as he paid back. I'm 99% sure his cards are fraudulently obtained and he will troll you with the I didn't nothing wrong as I'm just reselling excuse.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=729896.0

Yes I honestly think he earns these giftcards and sells them at a loss, if he has no use for these cards then he must get the cards exchanged for something that is actually of use to him (ex. bitcoin)

The point is, some people ( some from third world countries) use legal methods to get these giftcards and then sell them at less than face value as 80% in bitcoin is better than 100% giftcard that you cant use,

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Also, if i were using a method to get these cards, i wouldnt tell anyone, if you have been on the forum for the last year or so, you would see that no-one here is trusted

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Also I find the coordinated trust abuse from you and your friends interesting 

In the very unlikely case you're right then he'll just have to explain it to a trusted user as stated.

Yes, unfortunately nobody is 100% trusted. But whom do you trust more: anonymous22 or the best-rated users on this forum?
It's definitely healthier for the forum that he trusts one of the most trusted users here than we all trust anonymous22, don't you think?

For you "trust abuse" means "trying to stop the selling of illegal items", right?
I really don't think the fact they agree selling illegal goods is wrong is interesting or strange.

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TBH I didn't know about that, thanks. I agree that's an extra reason to believe it's extremely probable their cards are not legal.

For what job does one get paid in bulk with gcs??

Why dont you guys do your research?
There are apps that pay you in giftcards for downloading other apps
Do some research before next question

I think you should do yours. With the amount they're selling you would need an army to earn that much from apps. Stop being naive.

Stop being an idiot, anyone with a relatively small amount of investment can buy about 50 vps in bulk, install an android emulator and run their method in mass
Not everyone is narrow minded and wont go the extra mile to make a decent amount of money

When you are from certain countries, you have to go the extra mile when making money online, you wouldn't know

Dude, listen to yourself. Even with 50 emulators it would be impossible. You practically earn cents from each downloaded app, also keep in mind that you have to run multiple emulators on one machine and then you got to run hundreds of those, almost botnet like. Seemingly impossible. Those cards are for high amounts. No downloaded app gives you $100 voucher. Accept the fact that those cards are obtained illegitimately. As your handle states, "Your Point Is Invalid" .

You are adapting the american attitude of - If it seems unfeasible, it probably is
Why do you have to runn all the emulators on one machine? do you understand my post? let me make it clearer

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Buy 50 vps, install emulators on each vps, run the program, if you keep at this for hours a day then getting these cards would be easy
You are right, no downloaded app gives you $100 voucher, it all comes down to hard work and dedication

What evidence do you have?

Read back my post, you need hundreds of VPS , not only that, you would also need hundreds of email accounts as 1 email is linked to 1 play store account(assuming he's using playstore), and definitely a redemption(if it exist) would only allow once per account. Processes would also need to be automated ie botting. Highly unlikely that this is the method used as they are doing bulk sales not a one time small deal.

If it's a one time thing then people would understand, but selling in bulk and also you can request for other cards? Doesn't that show you something ?

Like I said, it is possible that he is buying gift cards from a website (or other reputable source). Doing a google search for "buy gift cards cheap" comes back with the first result being "Buy Gift Cards: 83,831 Discount Gift Cards - Save up to 35% (http://www.giftcardgranny.com/buy-gift-cards/)" I would find someone who is claiming to be able to sell large amounts of gift cards at one time to be more suspicious, as I would think it would be more difficult to get $500 worth of 1-800-flowers gift cards at one time (obtained legitimately), while someone buying on one of these kinds of sites might be able to get a single ~$50 gift card for any random store every week.

I am not 100% sure either. I have a $50 gift card from him from over a year ago that I have not had a chance to use that I just checked the balance on and it still has $50 on it.

I don't think I would consider your offer to be unfair, nor unreasonable. 

I was not aware of this. It looks like this was regarding Starbucks GC, which are known for being a money launder's heaven. I might be less willing to believe he is legit in light of this information/thread.

So it should be possible to proof all is legit to a trusted user. I dont see it happen

This sounds like something that tspacepilot would do lol. Are you tspacepilot?

May you suggest a trusted member, up to a few months ago quickseller was a good trusted member, so was that other escrow and then there was escrow.ms who was trusted up to a few days ago

If i had a method, i wouldnt release it, not because some people are forcing me to because of their trust ratings and their position on DT, the coordinated trust ratings by you and your set of friends is nothing short of disgusting

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Also, why did you avoid the question?
I will ask again,

What evidence do you have?

So this is where it all started.Genius Plan.DT member forms a group publicly and attack innocent victims.You know what is common in all such jobless posters ? Their knowledge about bitcoins.

Again,add only Bitcoin experts to the Trust Networks.

Knowledge does not necessarily have to do anything with trust. I don't see the system properly functioning in that way, nor do I see 'Bitcoin experts' wasting their time with trust ratings.

Because we have passed the authority to noobs who don't understand what are they doing and why they're doing it.If a seller wants to get rid of Giftcards let them be,they have buyers to purchase who really don't care how it comes from.Why a third party has to interfere without being asked to ?

I know Bitcoin experts won't be interested in such a ambiguous system.The point was, add people with Brains to the Network .

Anything that restricts the sale of stolen, counterfeit or goods obtained by fraud or deception is good.

The problem isn't that people want to buy carded gift cards. The problem is that people are buying these gift cards believing they are legit, using them and are then running into problems when these cards are found to be illegitimate. The people selling this lose nothing from this, however the people buying them not fully understanding what they are getting into have the possibility of having their account on the service which the gift card corresponds to closed.

People are greedy and ignorant. Unless people specifically say that there will be repercussions to using stolen gift cards, people will buy them simply because they see '70% DISCOUNT'.

"I don't understand the problem with selling illegal goods, so I'm going to insult everyone that does". If you dislike the people in the default trust network then remove them from your trust list (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=trust).

You don't have to waste much of your time on this person, and actually you shouldn't. This is a new account used to complain about DT and now about people wanting to stop trades of illegal goods. It is quite probable that he's among the sellers whose threads got removed/got banned.

Besides, trading of illegal goods is forbidden also by the rules of this forum.

Please no.

1. Any evidence that they arent legit, i agree that in some cases where people are offering 70% discounts the cards are probably carded but in the case of anonymous22, people can easily sell giftcards at those discounts

2. Agreed

3. But do you throw around these accusations without proof? (like the hatesquad)

Selling a gc with 50% off or more is not legit. You wouldnt sell me your brand new smartphone at a rate like thia just because you dont want to use it.

Selling a netflix acc for 2$ account is not legit if the price for it is officially much higher.

When it comes to my feedbacks i leave a reference so people can look up why i left a feedback and decide if its usefull or not. I am trying to get rock solid proofs, when i get them i report those threads.

We are not talking about people selling like 3 gcs they got on christmas and they dont want it. We are talking about people bulk selling cards for rates that are off the limits. Have a look on legit sites that sell those cards you wont find rates like this there. For a reason.

Saying you must have contributed to bitcoin or the network to be able to leave usefull ratings is like saying you need to contribute to the development of the worldwideweb in order to use it.

If everything is so cheesy, why do we have a scam accusation section. All made up?

1. If you have no use for the giftcard and want to get it off your hnds quickly then 50% is better than nothing
2. I doubt you are trying to get any rock solid proof, how about you change the rating to neutral untill you get the proof that you need, you should only leave negative feedback and the fact that you are asking for evidence makes it obvious that you you arent sure.

I just dont understand how you guys do stuff like this, you spoil the guy's reputation and none of you are sure, even OP clearly has doubts about his feedback, you guys should change the feedback to neutral until you have evidence.

People are innocent until proven guilty
How do you expect the shoot first ask questions later approach to work if the person you shot is dead

No, however it is not needed. As I said in another thread, the 'innocent until proven guilty' mantra doesn't work on this forum. All it takes is one successful con by someone to have the buyer down $100 with nothing in return. Personally, I think any steps against this are steps in the right direction.

I'll also reply to this since it's on a similar topic:
This is over exaggerating. Negative trust does not label an account as dead, and things similar to this can easily be worked out so long as some sort of reform takes place which the DT member can see. My account was tagged previously, I would not consider it to be dead by any stretch of the word.

I don't, but I can understand why some do.

ok, so all you are saying is that there is no evidence and no evidence is needed
lol, this forum makes a mockery of bitcoin, it as centralized as the government

I cant believe a member like you is saying that no evidence is needed, I chuckle just thinking about it

1. No one, absolutly no one has GCs lying around in high number he dont use. Did you read i stated i understand it when it comes to a few?
2. I do, because i want the threads removed. To get them removed i need proof. Until i got it, i leave a feedback to warn others. I decided to do so after a few sellers finally did scmas while i was looking after them.
The negative trust is described by: Negative - You were scammed or you strongly believe that this person is a scammer. and personal i strongly belive those sellers are scamers. Therefor i use the system by the way it was designed. If you give me a tool to use, dont complain when i use it.
3. This is not the real world where you end up in jail. -ve'ing throw away accounts that will vanish sooner or later anyways doesnt kill people. They will simply open up a new account. Again, if all is cool just proof it. Like i state in the thread linked in my sig, i review my feedbacks and i follow people after -veing.

Last but not least, i am not on DT anyways. Most people will see my feedback as untrusted and they can add me to their list with ~whywefight. In addition they can ignore all my posts. The forum has a feature for it.

1. How do you know this? what country are you from?

2. Who did he scam? or are you leaving negative rep because his cards are discounted?

3. If you get negative rep here your account is worthless and people do nothing about it, thats why i trade on other forums where people care and look into things

Mobi, I think this is over the top.I myself have PMed you some threads like those but that doesn't means you can force someone to prove you anything unless you are the buyer/seller(or if one of them asks you to) or are the owner of the place where the trade is going on,getting into personal lives is no way a good idea.

I would like to stop the scam or save someone from losing money over it but not by forcing anyone(I don't care who that anyone is) and particularly when I am a third party.It is Definitely Wrong.

Bitcoin does not has any reputation.Only a troll could say that for a decentralized currency or publicly controlled/developed currency.

Show me one currency which has not been used for illegal means ,show me one currency which was only used to buy/sell/trade Bible or other holy books.If there is buyer and a seller then you can even buy God's.

In reality Bitcoin is not wanting or dependent on motherfuckers.Thinkers ,creative minds & talents are required.If a fuckhead is going to judge or assume what Bitcoin or crypto currency is just by reading a fucking thread on a forum then i am sorry,i don't care bout them,I wont start movements or boycotts for them.

It is the only issue..lol

Forum drama is not authority and it only effects idiots or trolls.Why should i see Red or Green when there is trusted escrow of my choice ?

Yes they do and good brains completely SUCK at that stuff...

If you have had 5 million bitcoins ,wouldn't you try to promote it ?

Yes, and they will get satisfied by tagging someone on here ? If they were then there wouldn't be Apple,Microsoft,bitcoin etc etc...today.

@ Heutenamos

That first quote is in response to some one that used image as a excuse to go full out on giftcard merchants here.
Just a way to bring the discussion back around because the thinking being used to me felt faulty.

You first have a group empowering themselves as sheriff and that is never a good thing in any community.
Power usually becomes corrupted after a few successful take downs and it gets to the persons head.
The one aspect that keeps bugging me is how we have to answer to them or get painted as a person that is working on a
shady side of the street. Its harassment of the membership as they are going beyond forum norm and it to me is a abuse of power.
The aspect of power comes from being trusted and those that have it act like it does not exsist yet if they had negative trust they would realize it has sway in the forum. Its also interesting that they leave negative trust but state their trust should not sway me in any way! This is some messed up thinking and not seeing things for what they are.

Never big on people taking on a position that was not bestowed to them and going hog wild on the community because of a sense of entitlement.

Sorry Heutenamos the first bit was to you the rest was a rant not geared at you at all. :)

who wants to think all that ? how many people actually think before making a fucking post ? This will go on because the lower level people are eagerly waiting to get to a position where they can control more and more people or simply not reply a PM and show their Pride....Lmfao.The solution is when the community stops the Power Hunt and be what they are,so that they don't support any abusers hoping they will get to that position some day.

If Mobi's Logic is true then why don't we reverse the transactions of scammers ? why don't we reverse the coins from cryptsy , TF ,Gox and how many ? why don't we force them ? Because you don't have a fucking right to control anyone.

1. I agree, this type of coordinated trust abuses is bad for the community as a whole, one guy said jump and the others said how hign, if you ask them for evidence that the cards arent legit they cant give you an nswer but they think its fine to leave negative rep without having any evidence to defend their arguments

2. I dont know who gave them the authority but i will be contacting the persons that have these users on their trust list,

Why would they care ?

1) Well then, you probably haven't followed the discussion. If one has been given an unfair neg, they are free to prove otherwise(that they have got their GCs from a legitimate source) and the neg will be removed. Its not like a neg once given destroys one's reputation, KWH once gave me a neg just to prove a point and now he has me under his trust list(which he once explicitly excluded me from)
Also, it doesn't go "Innocent until proven guilty" , just think of the scammers going bonkers with offering deals with a payment method , going for hugely (very attractive) less than market rate(lets say 20% for example). Now I don't see how one can prove him guilty if the individual just ignores the concerns over the proof of the amount claimed
2) Please don't. If you're talking about me and Lutpin, we are under Blazed's list and he is already near to being pissed off with the number of PMs he gets asking for us to be removed. Also fun fact, you have me under your trust list. If you feel my ratings aren't accurate , feel free to exclude me using "~" before my name

I'm sick and tired of this, how will they prove this? send the method to a trusted member like quickseller a few months ago ar escrow.ms a few months ago

No-one here can be trusted are you new here, do you not know this?

I know how to exclude you from my list idiot, its the fact that everyone sees these ratings that bothers me

If you are from a country where you cant use these giftcards, would you keep these cards doing nothing or sell them, even if it is less thn face value

do you prefer 100% giftcard you cant use or 80% cash?
You guys are so simple minded sometimes it surprises me, can you not think from another point of view?

So you think it's better to let people sell obviously illegal cards? I'm only going against those who obviously seem to be selling illegal goods. I'm not assuming everyone is guilty until proven otherwise, only those who clearly show a lot of red flags. Only those cases very unprobable to be legal.
Do you think it's better to let them keep doing their illegal business because it doesn't affect me directly?

Unfortunately you're wrong. In case you haven't noticed the stereotype "I won't touch bitcoin, it's only good for illegal trading" is very popular.

That doesn't have anything to do with anything. You can't just say "If Mobi's Logic is true" and then say anything ridiculous and unrelated to try and affect my arguments.

You should try to understand the situation better before posting.

---

Probably you're getting sick of this because you're just repeating the same and the same and the same:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1375545.msg14000635#msg14000635

1. You keep saying the giftcards are illegal but you dont have any evidence, i have a question for you though, what makes it obvious that a giftcard is acquired in an illegal manner?

2. Yes, among ignorant uneducated people that we dont need involved in the first place anyways

3. I agree, more explanation needed

(Answering para by para)

Well that got too offending , for someone who manually has included me on his trust list. Also, ever heard of "distrust DT, start your own trust list" , yeah , its a thing most people don't seem to get even after a number of posts on the subject.

Yeah I obviously can see myself selling my extra shoes at less value just because I have no use for them, instead of waiting a day or two and selling it at the price such shoes normally go for. At any rate, I'm not tagging individuals selling only a few, totally understandable that they are obtained as a gift or something, number of GCs, if I appear to be let me know I might reconsider. I'm tagging guys who are selling so many of them, at a very low rate that its obvious that they want to quickly get rid of those illegal cards.

I'd go for the third option, sell at a loss which is not a huge loss at all

1. Read again (or by the first time) OP and the other posts. For example: this (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1375545.msg14000521#msg14000521) (...is selling 14 kinds of cards...) and this (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1375545.msg14000562#msg14000562) (anonymous22 has a shady past...) among others. I really don't like writing the same thing so many times! Just read the thread please.

2. Unfortunately the more people use bitcoin the better for everyone, even if they're "ignorant". They don't need to know how bitcoin works in order to use it. Bitcoin is meant for everyone, not just the ones who fully understand it, not just the more informed or intelligent ones. Bitcoin's reputation affects the news and the mainstream.

---

Read again.

ok, i will ask this question again since you have not given me a clear answer, what makes it obvious that a giftcard is acquired in an illegal manner?

Bitcoin has many years to develop, people need to get smart enough to understand how to use bitcoin, bitcoin doesnt need to be dummed down for them

1. I am from germany but please tell me where do i have to move to end up with hundreds of cards worth between 10-1000$. I will just stopp working and move there.

2. There is no "he" in this topic. its in general. You might want to look at the trust pages again it says:


Do you want me to post a screen of it? Again, as stated numerous times before, those dicounts dont seem legit in my eyes that is why i belive those people (speaking about hose i left feeback for) are scammers.

My GC related feedbacks say:


3. QS is one of the best examples that is not the case. Also a lot of -ved people still trade. I am glad you trade on other forums it is my personal point of view that all sellers that do or might do shady stuff should go there. Actually i care about other people, thats why i -ve people that seem shady to me.

I don't think resellers like anonymous are really selling illegal gift cards as the user is offering merely 20-30% discount. PRoving that they buy it for cheap is like exposing their source which doesn't seem right even though I can understand they are buying bulk GCs which seems suspicious.

I know many websites who sell gift cards at 70-80% discount as users sell their own GCs to such websites for cheap. These websites verify the card and pay the seller and then they sell it to us. They also get these gift cards for cheap like bulk buyers on this forum. I know a website myself who sells GCs of Dominos, Pizza Hut and so on for 30-50% discount so it's not that the website is itself buying illegal gift cards.


I somewhere feel that almost all the bulk sellers are getting targeted for offering a reasonable rate of 20-30% discount while I do agree that Starbucks sellers are selling carded gift cards. Other companies verify the cards being bought much faster than SB.

May be giving a neutral to anonymous can work here till he is able to prove himself. Not defending the user but since I don't find him selling illegal GCs, I gave my opinion.

1. You dont need to be from a specific country but being from some countries forces you to become more industrious

2. I am talking about anonymous22 , he is selling giftcards at ~20-30% discounts but people think this is money laundering

3. Quicksell is a household name i trust him because i've read and seen alot about him hence, i have something other than his trust ratings to reach at a point where i know whether he is trusted or not, What about less popular members? All that people judge them by is their trust rtings

---

agreed, everyone sees this except the people that left the feedback, removing the feedback will make them look weak nd i think thats what they are afraid of

Who are you to LET THEM ? who am i to LET YOU ? who are WE to LET HIM ? who is theymos to LET US ? oh fuck he is the land owner,yes he can LET or NOT LET US.

what affects you ? people losing thousands of coins on cryptsy doesn't affects you ? people dying in wars doesn't affects you ? what are you doing for it ,don't LET that happen ?

they are not reputation.They don't define anything,they are part of typical population/Workers.Since when have stereotype become the foundation of your philosophy ?

It is Scam,No ? We have the 51% attack then why don't we use it to stop them is my question.Lets stop and reverse the transactions.

You are skipping the Logic here.If you use your DT position to stop anything and for once i assume you caught them red handed, then why do the people don't use 51% position to reverse the coins to the victims ? or why not ask theymos to do some glitch in the software and reverse the coins ?

Let me tell you,even if 1 btc transaction gets reversed for a GOOD CAUSE then only mental retards will be using the bitcoin.The coin will collapse under 20 minutes.Let the cause be good or bad,one cannot force the other.It will become a vulnerable environment.

asking why someone decides to go after this and not after that doesnt make any sense. if someone decides to pick something its his choice. you could choose to work on helping people that lost coins on cryptsy, why dont you?

Do you see him going after people selling giftcards without  any proof??

1. You avoid to answer to my question about how to end up with a ton of cards, hence i think you claim its possible but you even dont know how this could happen. otherwise you would have told me when i first asked it.
2. I am not talking about him.
3. Look at the DS, ~50% -ved sellers, all still selling.

I'm anyone who cares. If you see something clearly wrong and it's in your hands to help without causing a bigger harm then do it.

Nothing of that affects me directly but of course I'd like to stop it because it affects others, unfortunately I can't. So what's your point? Because I can't magically fix the world then I should do nothing about anything?

First, I can't do anything about that. Secondly, it would most probably cause more harm (to bitcoin) than good. So no, I do not think we should do that.
But as I said before this has nothing to do with anything. Stay on focus!

Of course it would be a bad idea. Don't post nonsense.

---

I'm stopping replying to you unless you start posting on topic.

1. But you have said multiple times in this thread that you are not sure hence you're not this person

You still didnt look at the trustpage, did you? Let me post a pic of it:

https://i.imgur.com/CQLT4vR.jpg

i left a small hint where to look at... try to explain what you see, just to make sure you actually read it.

If Heutenamos decides to do so, i am fine with it. Also if he brings back cryptsy lost funds or if he starts to push whales back into the sea. I am cool with all of it.

Bro, im not talking to you, im arguing the case of anonymous22, you didnt leave any rating for him and it would be stupid if you did

Guys it's good,the efforts ,the spirit.But I will NEVER EVER agree to use my position or something that is in my control to force anyone for a good or bad cause.You all know it is wrong.

@Mobi, you actually proved my point in your own post,Thanks.

Edit:

Daniel, nobody cares and what makes you think i am responsible for the losses of the grown up adults trading on that exchange ? they know all the loop holes and they are solely responsible for that and yes i will help if i could but not by forcing the scammer....lol It doesn't works that way.

I strongly believe forcing untrustworthy users to stop being untrustworthy is right. And clearly most people agree on that. It's clearly right.
That's why the police forces criminals to stop and go to jail, or even just drivers not to go too fast. (Just an example).

I have no idea what point you consider proved but sure, whatever you say.

---

Anyway regarding anonymous22, he's said he presented the proof to Ognasty. If he confirms everything is legal then of course I'll remove my feedback. If he doesn't then that would prove his cards are not legally obtained.  

Unfortunately this thread is going off topic. I hoped to have a valuable discussion here. Anyway I won't lock it, people may still post really valuable opinions.

lol, look at the logic

1. How do you go about knowing if a user is untrustworthy? if he offers 30% discounts?

2. Yes, police fore criminals into jail but they must first get evidence to arrest them, they dont arrest people on gut feelings

When were you appointed by theymos as they guy that decided if someone is untrustworthy?

i am talking in genral (yeah and for my self) if someone thinks someone is a scammer he can just use the system.


i think you didnt read the post correct. It was about picking up soemthing you want to change. YPII took you as example, so did i

Not again! Really?!
If it obviously looks untrustworthy then most probably it is. And it's OK to act especially when it's so easy to prove he's not untrustworthy. Please re-read the thread once more. If you still don't get it then read again and again until you get it. Don't quit!
Nobody is police here, so we all need to work together!

---

More completely unrelated nonsense!  ::)

Believes,right ?

If that is reported with proper evidence then the Cop goes inn for some years or even a decade.You cannot touch the criminal before you present him to the court.It is abuse which is what you agree to do.

Yes, but not by forcing anybody but by helping.There is a difference.

---

What you people are saying is ,Raping a bitch is good because she is scamming, hurting many people.Sorry,I don't agree to that, Sir.

So if someone offers a 30% discount then he is untrustworthy?
give me a yes or no answer

Sad you take extreme approaches at certain things, it has been repeated by EcuaMobi that he considers many factors before being suspicious of an individual. If the discount was given for
1) Unlimited period of time
2) For more than 5 GC
3) The user has a shady history

I would consider the individual to be untrustworthy if two of the criteria fit him, he always has the option of explaining .

Also at this point I'm wondering you're just making this comments for the paid sig, I know its quite douche-baggy of me to retaliate like this, but you've repeated that point with EcuaMobi replying the same thing over and over again

we dont rape people, we leave feedbacks on them. thats two pairs of shoes. i dont tell them to stop something, sometime i suggest it in other topics. while they are tagged i try to get their threads deleted. worked fine so far.

and btw: bitches are not scamming... they are just bitches

If only you guys had given clear answers then this thread wouldnt be as long

Also, im offended that you think i am posting in this thread to get sig money

also, define unlimited period of time, and also, what if someone offers 6 giftcards, then they are more untrustworthy than someone who offers 5?

---

Also why dont you acknowledge the fact that acquiring giftcards and then selling in bulk at a loss is feasible

What you are saying is, when someone is "raping a bitch" you stand aside and do nothing, because you do not force anyone. That does not make you neutral, it makes you inhumane.

If you are neutral in situations of injustice, you have chosen the side of the oppressor.[1]

Those on DT can not actually act, they can only issue a warning that is easily seen. Issuing it is not abusive and opinion is commonly used in absence of proof. This is nothing new, its just a new area that is targeted.

[1] https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Desmond_Tutu

PS: With that being said I dont think the effort a few here put in this will be rewarded. Same with the ponzi section, people will ignore the warnings anyway, so let them make their own mistakes.

please explain how one can buy GCs in bulk so he gets awesome discounts like 80%

You dont have to buy them, skip back a few pages, and an 80% discount is probably not legit, in talking about people giving discounts in the  20-30% region

i know there are websites out there, and i think i posted it before, that enables reselling with that rates. i didnt check anonymous22 cards against public offers, but i know a few sellers that use that as their source.

so basicly your fighting for anonymous22 because this might be his source while we talking about hardcore discounts. so we talking in different directions. BUT if OgNasty confirms the source is fine, anons feedback will be removed. So the system works.

The system doesnt work if there doesnt need to be proof for the feedback to be left but there needs to be proof for it to be removed

if something looks like fish, smells like fish people might think it is fish. that is how it goes

Think I understand now! You two are very similar in thinking where the world is black & white. The above statement and lack of understanding to the issue prove this.
Think you are going to continue disrespecting people and trying to bend them to your might. This thread and the others show you will do what you want and the forum be damned.
Hopefully others with will come here and show this is not just a few that worry about the tact.

Enough from me, I disagree strongly and hope this aspect is thought about more.

Not true.Yes, I agree i don't go around forum's 24x7 searching who is scamming and who is losing but ,but whenever i notice something shady then I definitely make sure that i PM any of the active DT guy,with proper evidence so that no one loses their money.

That makes me a Rough or not very King guy.This now gets complicated because the third party has to face the retaliation from the criminal or accuser.
In simple words I will be helping or taking risks for them until the problem or revenge of their's(victim and accused) is significantly bigger than what is between the third party(me) and them.

Exactly.You cannot help or explain everything to everyone and every single time.

Well the metaphor was bad anyway. They do go around, is that in itself bad? Your critique seems to be the lack of evidence. Why is it a problem here, but not when ponzis are tagged? There is lack of evidence as well. Why are the two a problem, but I am not?


What?


Lutpin and mexxer-2 do get messages from scammers and they are not always nice. Why does that make things more complicated?


No, but why attack those that are still willing to try?

In that case are you going to leave a positive feedback? Since you've verified their source and are convinced they're actually honest and fair.

If you're going to work this system of "vetting" sellers, it should work both ways, right?

Yup,If i find any evidence i will try to stop the scammer but not just tagging and saying hey you motherfucker come and strip right now or else enjoy the rating.


I i remember right then i have opened a thread for that some months ago ? also both are different stories.

What do you mean ? Nobody is problem to me ,anyways.

Keep them aside.We are not discussing bout them or any individual.

I have seen people not getting any jobs for years cause one google search for their name leads to nude photos of their's or relatives.Its a lot more complicated when it gets serious.

If you people are going to say attack,target to every post of mine then what should i say so that you guys understand that i am speaking bout the problem and not to individual persons.

---

Shorena,I am not attacking or targeting anyone and there is no one who can or will forcefully remove your opinions from your own mind ,you are the master of your life but because the specialty of human's is communication and i thought we could actually discuss something but if this ends on IMO's then i am not interested,you win ,I lose.Thank You.

Like Mobi said "I strongly believe forcing untrustworthy users to stop being untrustworthy is right".So how many bitches should i force to not be a bitch? and if Mobi is going to save me from the law ? because the rape was for good cause and i should not be in a jail.

You also only have your opinion. If its opinions what are we even talking about?

I bring up mexxer-2 and lutpin here, because this discussion directly lead to the "save the trust system" thread where its asked to remove them from the system.

If someone does shady shit on the internet and later fails to get a job I have no problem with that.

OK, So to force someone is opinion ? nice knowledge then.I am learning a lot.

I don't know what these kids are up to and in simple words THEY NEED TIME.

No, their doxes were posted while they were trying to "force" the so called untrustworthy and not publicly available info but paid doxes.Like suchmos's.

How did anyone force anyone to stop trading gift cards paid with stolen credit cards? DT does not have that power, its just a warning nothing more.


I dont know how old they are, but they will adapt.


link?

Tagging and trolling their thread and business unless they reveal you the method is not forcing ?

Evidence ?

I am not going to make anything public but anyways some public info might of help.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1334378.msg13621674#msg13621674

The rating says "or belive..." so if i belive someone is a scammer whos job is it to proof my thoughts are wrong?

Your Own cause you are the accuser.

Did it stop the trades?


Opinion is commonly used when evidence is absent. I think it was already established in this thread that its difficult to find the line between someone selling legit cards at a discount and someone not. Is it 50% discount or 48.7548%? Still a rating from DT is not a sentence to jail, its just a warning nothing more. It hardly stops anyone from selling what they sold before. See Vods crusade against MS keys. If anything it makes those wondering whether they should buy think. Which is the whole reason the ratings are left, to make the possible buyers think "can this be legit?".


How is this relevant here? I dont see anything related to (potentially) stolen gift cards.

nope. i dont have to proof what i think or belive. also again for you what the neg option states:


It doesnt say something about having evidence. In most of the cases we present one by leaving a correct reference. Just because i think someone is a scammer doesnt make him one, thats why most of the people -veing take their feedbacks back when proven wrong. I know it should be the other way around BUT no one dies, no one goes to jail because he has a feedback.

Lets do it the other way around and lets stick with GCs. What evidence would you like to see if we say: "Those GCs are not legit"?

It will never but the Thinking to force them as far as you can just because "forcing for a good cause is Right" is what i am talking about.

Those are the risks for a third party interference and i linked that because you said i am "inhumane".

Strange,cause i don't believe anything unless it has some sense in it and is mostly based on facts rather than my likes and fucking opinions.And if i do then i make sure that i am believing it because i like it but there is a high possibility that it could be wrong.

There is none and i am not going to observe how a user is treating his wife and tag them here on forum.Fuck it's their personal life and how they get them is impossible to know and is also not my job, because i could post a fully functional s7 in Auctions and sell it for half the price and it would be impossible to know if i stole that or actually bought that.

I check if the user is avoiding Escrow,insisting others to go first(If new account),convincing users to trade somewhere on skype etc..

So td;lr: you dont have a clue how it should be handled but you think everything what others do is wrong? If you dont care about it i am cool with but i care.

Ps: (sticking at your s7) it would be possible thats what emais are made for... i think your counter examples are somehow horrible...

Im still not entirely sure how to handle the gift cards, but I dont like the idea of letting carders just be for a lack of evidence.


Because you brought up the rape example.

here is another seller
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1378550.0
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=45380

It means that whatever you do could be wrong,cause its based on ?

I don't have a problem with what you call me and i need 3 seconds to know why the guy is abusing and ignore it,but yes that doesn't makes me inhumane,it's complicated.


I think that is also a hacked account ?

Says a guy who is a account re seller at this forum.We are in short of logical individuals here .Selling a third party gift card which belongs outside of this forum validates for being a negative tagged crime but selling of the forum accounts which are main cause of even bigger scams are totally fine here. There is something wrong with the system.Not for long .Let's see what I have for you.

i am sad you dont know how lending works. maybe you should ask those who are more established than me and doing the same. uh oh, might be some of your friends as well... in addition it seems you can read but you have a lack of understaning how i handle acc sales, when and what my terms are. well let me make one step towards you so everyone can see i accept suggestions, not like you. i will eat the loss i made with defaulted loans and will get rid of only one more. after that, i am done. you want me to change it? you are welcome i will do so.

And again, my master, i didnt sell "accounts" i sold one account. it will be "accounts" with my final sale.

Thanks for bringing my wrong doings to my attention and make me think about it. :)

Opinions should not be used when deciding to leave negative trust, as for the majority of people a single negative rating can essentially torpedo one's ability to conduct business around here. If you can't cite specific facts and if you cannot speak to why you left a negative rating then it is probably not a good idea to leave such negative rating in the first place.

I would argue Vod leaving negative ratings for MSDN key sellers will have the opposite effect. Potential MSDN key sellers know that all MSDN key sellers will have negative trust so they do not bother checking their trust profile and ignore their trust score. This has allowed multiple people to continue to scam even after having negative trust by selling MSDN keys that do not exist. There have been a number of scam accusations opened against people who received payment for MSDN keys and sent nothing in return and who previously had multiple trust reports saying they had scammed previously at the time payment was received. Normally, when someone starts a business they will initially have difficulty conducting business because they have no reputation, however as they have been in business longer, they will build up a reputation of trading honestly and if they want to maintain that reputation then they will need to not (try to) scam the people they do business with, however when everyone has negative trust ratings this is not possible.

A ponzi is essentially a promise which is mathematically impossible to be kept. A ponzi is essentially a promise that if you give me $1 today, then I will give you $2 tomorrow with no limits as to how much total money I will accept. If I claim to somehow use this $1 and "invest" it for a day that somehow gives me >$1 in returns in that one day, then it is your responsibility to ask questions to debunk my claims if you wish to leave me a negative rating. Take these two threads for example (one (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=906261.0;all), two (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=920192.0)), they were claiming to "invest" in altcoins/ect. so they were initially given the benefit of the doubt, however after questions were asked and research was done, it was determined they were in fact lying about not being a ponzi and were left negative trust.

Another good example is this (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1236976.0;all) in which the OP of this thread was offering ponzi-like returns, however was claiming that he was "investing" money sent to him by "investors" and when he was questioned about how he makes the money that he uses to pay the returns, he provided evidence (not proof) of legitimacy, and without significant evidence that would prove otherwise a negative rating is inappropriate in this case.   

I would say a possible way to prevent money laundering via Gift Cards on this forum would be to apply (and enforce) this (https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=134779.0) rule to sellers of gift cards.

If prior reputation is required before someone can start selling Gift Cards then gift card sellers will have an incentive to not sell laundered/stolen gift cards because doing so would damage their reputation.

And yes , thanks for linking.

There is always room for error.

---

So the solution is to just accept the fact that illegal goods are traded here and be done with it? I know I argued that MS keys are legal to sell in some circumstances/juristictions and that the seller should not be flagged without a closer look. In the end though, even the "legit" (following your definition of "not scamming a user here") ones are breaking the law (at least in some countries). Same goes for gift cards[1]:


The question is how liberal this forum wants to be and there are different views. That is why this topic is discussed here. Im perfectly fine with that. What I find troubling is the "abuse!" crys and the attacks against those newly added to DT. What am to think of this other than someone sees their business in danger and not someone that has good arguments and can defend with them, but someone that needs to use every possibily venue. I know that amazon gift cards or often the only way very poor people can earn. They do mechanical turk work, earn amazon points, trade them for gift cards and sell them at a discount for money that lets them buy food. Those will hardly sell them here directly.


This may be a good solution and it might be the first compromise I have read in this regard. With account trades it would at the very least give gift card sellers the incentive to work honestly until they have paid off the account needed to conduct the sales in the first place. Its one rule that is rarely enforced by staff though and just because of that its probably not a solution at all. It would require staff to interfere with trades.

[1] https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html%3FnodeId=3122091


I didnt know about "Delta Investment", they have a negative rating though.

This is not a rule, I've never seen this being enforced, also the points are too vague, who will be responsible for deciding if someone has enough history to trade here or even to trade in bulk?

Think connecting who can sell giftcards to trust would be a mistake,turning trust into a currency.
Not something that is earned but something that opens doors to you and even paid for.

Want to be clear I have no issues with people that have opposing views and its great to get the lumps out of the pillows from time to time.
Often I suffer from wanting to stand up for people I feel may be getting a raw deal or are going to get it down the road. Something about this irks me to see people hunting people down. Know its for the better of the community but I wish there was a better way and more balanced approach.

Really scared that this forum will become a closed shop where backdoor deals are made and lower members are treated as peons.
If we force giftcarders into the back we also expose more new accounts to being scammed in private message land. Its clear new accounts are used
for selling giftcards now to protect established accounts from exposure.

It is not about forcing gift cards to be sold via backroom PM deals, it is about making it more difficult to sell carded/stolen gift cards in the first place.

First of all, if negative trust is left for users who are selling what is clearly carded/stolen gift cards, then such deals will be done via PM/backrooms anyway.

Forcing users to first have some reputation prior to being able to create a [wts] thread that contains gift cards for sale will make it more difficult for people to sell a stolen/carded gift card because doing so will then risk the reputation of their existing reputation. If you assume that stolen/carded gift cards will eventually start to go "bad" then once there are credible reports of gift cards going bad that were sold by a particular seller, then that seller will lose his reputation and would likely be labeled a scammer.

In other words, my proposed rule would prevent people from creating accounts specifically for the reason to sell stolen gift cards. Gift Cards will still be sold/traded on the forum, it is just that they will be sold by reputable users who have more to lose when problems arise from such cards.

So the plan is more about the seller than the buyer.
Seems more in line with what a seller would want.

Basically we just stated the samething but used it for different angles. There will always be a market for cheap cards and eventually trust will mean little or actually help advertise a established carder. People will continue to sell because people are buying.
Just do not see it helping in the long run, unless you are moving towards full out ban.
You have more experience in this aspect though and maybe I am looking at it wrong. Maybe a poor job of making my point. :-D

There are no laws (afaik) against (re)selling MSDN keys, nor gift cards. It is my understanding this is the case in the US and most of the "1st world" countries. The sale of gift cards and/or MSDN keys is against the TOS of various companies (eg of MSFT and of the issuers of the gift cards), and the forum does not view TOS as something that is enforceable as per the liberation views of theymos.

The violation of TOS is a civil issue and would likely be litigated as a "breach of contract". There are some situations in which the courts will not enforce a TOS (or a contract) for a variety of reasons, including, but not limited to, it is impossible to comply with the terms of the TOS, the TOS are too vague, the TOS conflicts with (most often) state law (could be federal and/or local law as well), the TOS attempts to compel a party to do something illegal, enforcing the TOS would be against public policy. (note: this also applies to contracts as well).

I believe that some state legislatures have passed legislation regarding gift cards, which may or may not include giving consumers the right to resell gift cards, and if this is the case then the section of the TOS that prohibits the resale of the gift card would be null and void (or the entire TOS if it does not have a clause that keeps the rest of the TOS in force if certain section(s) are found to be unenforceable).

There is also the point that MSFT (in the case of MSDN keys) and the issuers of the gift cards (in the case of gift cards) are the only ones who have standing to bring any kind of suit against people violating the TOS they entered into. It is very well possible that these entities would decide to ignore a TOS violation due to the cost of litigation is greater then what they can expect to recover, because brining this kind of litigation would create a negative public image or another reason.  This point does not apply to sellers of stolen/carded gift cards because this practice hurts the community (and society) as a while.

See the above quote from theymos, the forum will not enforce terms of service

I think this is off topic here, however some could argue that they are leaving negative trust for things that do not actually include things that would truly make someone a scammer, and some may think that if you were to get on their bad side then these new people in the DT network will look at your business dealings and will say that some part of your dealings does not fully comply with the law, is somehow wrong even though there was no claim of money being stolen, or some other made up reason to leave negative trust. One of the most ridiculous reasons I have seen them leave negative trust is because someone "tried to cheat a twitter campaign".


It would not solve the problem, but it would put a large dent into the problem, maybe a large enough of a dent that the rest of the problem can work itself out. The rule should not be that people cannot sell gift cards without reputation, it should be that people cannot create threads advertising the sale of gift cards without reputation. I would say this rule would be less about interfering with trades, and more with enforcing what kinds of threads are allowed. The staff (under this rule) would trashcan a thread by a user with no reputation that is attempting to sell gift cards the same way they would trashcan a thread that is trying to sell cocaine.


The negative rating that Delta has been given has been criticized by a number of at least semi-reputable people. Also the person who left then a negative rating is not a reasonable person, nor does he know how to use logic. I believe my point remains.

Please link 3 trusted gc sellers that offer at least 50% discount...  ::)

Why?
You never responded the last time I responded to your curse laden post . Whats going to change this time. Keep trolling me, not wasting time on you till you read and respond to something I actually say.

Besides it has nothing to do with my post.

If I receive a $50 gift card to Applebees for my birthday and I do not like eating at applebees then I will probably want to sell this gift card. I know the person who gave it to me is not involved in any kind of fraud, so I know the gift card will continue to be honored until the issuer starts charging inactivity fees and/or the balance gets zeroed out due to the balance being sent to the state's abandoned property department. I might first try to sell it for $45, but if after a week when I get no offers, I might lower it to $40, and so on until I offer it for $24.50 and get an offer. The fact that I was selling it for $45 does not make it legit, and the fact that I was selling it for $25.50 does not make it carded/stolen (it was the same card at both price points). The reason that I sold it at the price I did was because of supply and demand (eg because of market forces). Granted, some sellers of carded/stolen gift cards may underprice their cards in order to attempt to sell them more quickly, however this can be addressed by preventing throwaway accounts from being able to advertise their gift cards for sale. 

I never said that because i didn't had any company and they would say i am supporting scammers or derailing the thread etc etc... LOL and the second most ridiculous was with the LBC account seller.Lutpin trolled him to death.

Love is blind.You are not seeing the simple abuse or bullying. Imagine a situation where you are a newbie and trading something but some old motherfucker comes and destroys your sale ,trolls your thread and wastes your time.Just because he doesn't likes it.

I cannot accept that,I am not against any new members or old members but I am questioning the behavior.This is no personal attack,at least not from my side.

Tagging is simply not the solution and particularly when theymos himself said there is no enforcement.

I was away for awhile of the forum and i got back and saw this thread by chance and in which i saw my name again. Look guys "Who are accusing me for no proof" I do not know why you are attacking me like that? because i am simply trying to earn few bucks to live? You are accusing me to sell few cards that i am doing money laundering?

Now you will ask me for the proof of what i am talking about because you are " paranoid guys " and i want to remind you that i already messaged Ognasty and i revealed my way to get the cards to him and he said that :
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1376014.msg14024403#msg14024403
So I am not ready nor obligated to inform anybody else about my way although i am not getting nor selling any more cards.

About my "SHADY PAST" , I was a new on this forum and I did not know how it is going on with the starbucks cards, i just dealt with some guy:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=641824.0
and once i sold his cards for few bucks as a commission , the cards went bad and i had to refund the buyer and i already did:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=729896.msg9110056#msg9110056

Again, i was new on here and I was a victim of a fraudster and i had to refund the guys from my pocket so you can not forgive it for me or what guys??!!

I am not saying that i am against fighting scammers and fraudsters because i have been scammed too many times and i was a victim for many scammers here on bitcointalk and this does not mean that i can be like them because i know the feeling of getting scammed/ fooled. I am totally with you guys but I wish i can help you and i wish i can help this forum as it helped me before to earn some money but you have to be 100% sure before you judge someone else and ruin his business for nothing.
And btw if i am a money launderer or a scammer, i would vanish from this forum after i am done with my job but i am still here guys because i feel that i belong to this forum and because this forum helped me a lot before to make some money before. And do not forget that if you are using the power that you have to force me to tell you or anybody else about my way to earn money is a sort of blackmail but anyways I am done of this because this brings me headache more than the money i could get.

I would like to thank anyone who defended me while i was not online although i do not know you or you do not know me. Thanks again.

lets have a look for another trusted member.

You did not see this? I hate repeating what i said over and over again.

if you are having a legit way i would be glad if someone confirms it.

I have read it, i thought i will ask for it again anyways.