Bitcoin Forum

1. The chips out of Foundry at last Dec. 28, and our sample system came out at Jan, 5.

2. Around Jan 23, we started first batch of the sample systems (totally 70) manufacturing  and before Chinese New Year, 60 of them went up online.

3. Our first order is 1300 systems, so we were not daring to do mass production BEFORE the stability test finish. Otherwise if any defect on the PCB boards, then you have to dump a large amount to PCBs (that was what Bitmine did).

4. After things proved to be right and long Chinese New Year holiday was over, we started the big production.

5. During this time, some guys were able to get our original designs ( this is China, LOL), and begun producing their sample units.

6. So since our current production were already paid for, so the next available units will come around March 15/25 time frame.

7. Even thought Bob contacted with me first, but apparently someone tricked him into what he believed the system were from us.

8 .Those systems were sample units made by copycats and NOT from us. Period.

9. Friendly advise: Bob, DO NOT attempt to over clock, you will burn the chips.

10. We will give a production presentation in next Weds. day (Shanghai time), and one thing is for sure, those sample units you received never went longer period of testing. Neither some parts on their board are up to the standards you like to see, so I have to say "Good luck".

11. If you are lucky enough by chance and those parts turn out ok, the max you can go probably around 1T. But the max our system can go is around 1.3T.

Price? Availability? Shipping dates? Website?  So Many questions!

But 8000$ is too much....

true

Escrow?

For pre-order, I means the company does not have the miner in production. Instead they start to sale when the miner is in concept or design or testing phase.

For Jingtian miner, you pay the money and then the company buy the chip, materials and put it in the factory and doing some testing. That is my guess. Or they could estimate the demand and keep producing the miner and this way you pay the money and then the miner is shipped in a few business days. Not sure how they will handle the shipping to the US right now.

The chip is developed by themselves and I am not sure if this information could be disclosed. I will try to get some feedback with payment/shipping information from the company later.  

papamoi, Do you have the chip parameters from bitmine.ch? Is there any miner runnning their chips?

It seems to me that there are already 60T Jingtian miner running for testing and they are running very stable. They already have 1200T waiting in the line.

Time is everything here. It sounds a sweet deal to me if it can be shipped by the end of March.

It seems there is another post talking about this miner. Here is the link https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=466254.0

papamoi, Do you have the chip parameters from bitmine.ch? Is there any miner runnning their chips?

It seems to me that there are already 60T Jingtian miner running for testing and they are running very stable. They already have 1200T waiting in the line.

Time is everything here. It sounds a sweet deal to me if it can be shipped by the end of March.

It seems there is another post talking about this miner. Here is the link https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=466254.0

Don't waste your time with Papamoi, he's an idiot.  Just take a look at his posting history.

Be gentle. And Papamoi, please do not advertise other miner in this thread. Thanks.

Don t take in account what this bastard of dropt and his gayfriend loshia are babling around

they just do like waste their time and others


but as i said it s better to warn people about costs and returns and make them know that there is other cheaper alternative


because if they pay their miners at this price and with the hashrate skyroacketting there is more than big chances that they will never make any money with it

so it s a friendly advice to any forumers and nothing against u

papamoi, thanks for your input, I checked it. It sounds to me a little fishy. I did not find their testing data which is very important. If they have product ready for orders, they should have the miners running for testing. Jingtian miners are running in a pool for about 2 weeks up to now and I found it's running very stable, very promising. Until I can see more, I would put my trust in Jingtian Miners, at lease you see something real there.

Just talked with the chip maker and they confirmed that they don't know that UK company.

If they bought the chips from bitmine, then price will NOT make this price work.

Also this chip by design is perfect for 1T system. It is NOT to be smart to make 1.5T system, and it impossible to make 3T system.

Asking them to show a REAL system that is running.

You've still to actually verify your products as well, or respond to my PM or email. Giving you support is a lot different from giving you buckets of our money. We want to give you our buckets of money, but you need to meet up half way and make us feel comfortable enough for us to give you our buckets of money.

Buckets of money.

Lots of buckets of money.
But no safety, no money!

this guys also promise to deliver before end of march and half the price

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=469943.0 for 3 ths

so u choose

It will have favorite terms for the customers. Wait to see...

Unfortunately Avalon and BFL as well as others use that as a company motto and their expected shipping date. If this unit ships then all is good.

Cheers! 
All time total payout: 224.63144793 BTC + Unpaid Balance 5.23307419 BTC
http://eligius.st/~wizkid057/newstats/userstats.php/1swrtyBsp9odruX65upeyubAVSAyggh78

And why are you selling these miners???

OH, you are "testing" them and when all "testing" is done then they are good to go right?

This is a very good question and could take a long time to answer since there is a very very interesting story behind this. Unfortunately, I could not share the story with you. The testing should be considered closed since the 60T miners are very stable now and we are in mass production for the first 1200T order. The official website will be launched in a few days. Then you could make your order for this super powerful miner if you want.

Update some new info.

Rather busy with all productions.

1. A large amount of chips are on hand. Everybody knows if you cannot secure the chips ...

2 Boards are in good shape.

By the way, extra 28nm chips I can resale.

Can you post some board pictures ?

https://www.flickr.com/photos/117611338@N03/with/12716629744/

Are gerbers open-source or copyrighted ?

We have copyright but we can license to partner.

1. A large amount of chips are on hand. Everybody knows if you cannot secure the chips ...

  ;D

Without a good PCB it's useless, it's better to fry them in WOK = less damage :)

Since the story is not on the air, I will keep my mouth tight.  :D

I have 2 of these from 2 different vendors enroute to me, should be interesting.

We have copyright but we can license to partner.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=482921.0

It seems a lot of people just focus on the price instead of other important factors like stability. The quality is the last thing they will consider. Interesting.

Have to point this out
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=291141.msg5332118#msg5332118

Just say you're building miners based on bitmine A1 chip.
A1 sign is visible on chips on the pcb photo you posted.

Then we will ask bitmine.ch if they are in bussiness with you. Things solved.

Did skyfromwell make it clear in his post:
----------------------
1. Anyone needs to pay 15 BTCs to bad mouth Bitmine? Seriously.

2. The CoinCraft chip that Bitmine claimed are NOT their products. They buought form a Chinese chip company.
----------------------

You give the wrong assumption since the answer for your question is always No. Trick does not work. We do not have any business with bitmine.ch. Let me ask you some simple questions: If bitmine.ch had all the chips and could build their own miner, will they sell the chips in the market? Which way is more profitable for them?

Have to point this out
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=291141.msg5332118#msg5332118

Are these coming from same place as asiabtc Jacks miners.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=482921.msg5340791#msg5340791

Note: It is just a story！

Let's talk a story, as in Hollywood movies and this story is all fiction and but based on true fact. LOL.

So it is just a story and people should not link their names with it.

At Wonderland, there is a guy named Good Digger who wish to have a powerful tool, so he can have a go on Gold Mountain. But he has no ability to make the core for this magic tool to work. So he looks around, far and away, in a place there is someone who actually have the ability to help him out.

So with hard cash on the hand, he found this guy named Good Maker to work out a deal. So he paid up front for some development costs and also for some portions of making the tool. As return, Good Digger will get his portion of finish product and of course Good Maker has the right on the tool and also keep a bigger portion of the magic stuff.

Of course, for Good Digger, he got some wonderful stuff and he can use them to make his powerful system. As a good marketing talker, he can also bloating around the miners community to show off his "invention".

But for Good Maker as a great skilled but low-profiled guy, he wants to make sure he really did a great job.

So he found his good friend the Good Worker to help up, by designing a cool system as proof to test his core is indeed a great one.

Then the design is come out very quick and successful. They put together 60 systems and let them to run a longer test.

At this point, Good Worker as a new comer to the community decide to let their design to go public, and at same time helping Good Maker to sell their great stuff.

So end of story.

1. Do you think Good Maker's own mining core is "owned" by Good Digger? The agreement pointed out both guys can named their stuff and can digging themselves or resell their systems.

2. Do you think Good Worker have Good Digger's core? Even both of them are coming from same design? So if Good Digger named their core with brand-name "My Magic", then of course, stuff from other sources are NOT "My Magic".

WARNING about counterfeit, scam or lower grade A1 ASICs from unauthorized distributors
Posted on February 12, 2014 by Giorgio Massarotto in Coincraft series, News
We received several reports about unauthorized individuals or companies claiming to be selling CoinCraft-based products, please pay extreme attention when purchasing from an unauthorized distributor because most probably they’re a scam or a reseller of lower-grade, non-working or counterfeit ASICs.

To ensure you get only the best quality, guaranteed and supported CoinCraft A1-based products, please make sure to purchase either directly from our website or from one of the Authorized distributors from this updated list page.
http://bitmine.ch/?page_id=5204

@ujka  Could you please take your time to read the story? I am really curious about your real purpose here since you have followed our topic for a few days. We have already declared that we have no business with bitmine.

SeekSilence,  
I think many of the forum members are curious about your real purpose here too.  Questions have been asked and you have provided some information; but have not been totally forthcoming.... slowly the story comes out. Why are you evasive concerning UJKA’s questions? Provide a legitimate answer concerning the chips.  Be honest and upfront, none of this story time Bullsh**.  You have to understand that Scams are widespread in Bitcoin right now. So, the more open and transparent you are the quicker the skepticism will disperse. This is business; proof is required. Otherwise you could be one of the most honest people in the world and no one will believe you. And because you have not established trust with potential customers, you will not be successful in business. What’s the hang up with providing a miner to someone for validation and verification of what you claim? The longer you wait, the less palatable your miners will be. Price is too high at this juncture and as time passes it will be increasingly MORE DIFFICULT to get ROI for your miner.  So reasonably, consider this; WHY would one invest in your miner (even if it were the best ever made) if they could not make ROI, much less make a profit?  You boys need to get your act together!

What company, and what chip? We like detailed info, and pictures, you know, post some.

This is how A1looks
http://i44.tinypic.com/20kozye.jpg
http://i39.tinypic.com/mx2d02.jpg

And this is from your flicker photo, seems to me that there is A1 written on chips.

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7434/12716629744_912c494449_b_d.jpg

Yes, that's A1.

I've been speaking with Winston from JT and I did give my concerns about the questions not being answered as well as the fact others have these miners with a different name.

Before someone bank wires you money it is hard to justify exactly what is going on.  Not that it is a scam but more so we have no clue if we are buying a clone of a clone.

Why do you speak in riddles and or stories.  This is not Family Feud where we just have to guess the top 10 answers for your company.

You have no 1TH in the public according to your post.  You said it yourself there are no demo units shipped yet.

So here is a clue:
1. If you consider your datacenter as public then you guys are behind KNC running 6 Modules per controller in their datacenter, Hashfast and plenty of others.
2. You run 4 boards per box so nothing to revolutionary on design.
3. You blatantly have posted pictures with boards that have the A1 logo on the chips.
4. You speak in riddles
5. Nobody cares about your Hollywood story esp if they are buying 15-20k in miners.  Sadly even the huge scams have at least some info.
6. There are no secret ninjas that can look at your PCB and steal the design by just a picture.

I was very interested in becoming a reseller but no information other than cost and bank wire come out!

Just food for thought...

Minersource is selling these too.

They are NOT selling our products and they are not our authorized distributor. Please show some respect and do your own ad post. Thanks.

From my understanding Minersource is selling the JTMiner.  Bobsag3 has posted pics in you all's threads of his miner being delivered.

Also my comment in regards to post sounding like a riddle or guessing game was not about the grammar itself more so just you bullet the list and the post seem to just be a story not an answer.

I don't think the product is a scam at all but mainly the marketing for a new product is not helping.  As you know bitcoin technology moves fast and the dodging of questions does scare new customers, esp ones who have been on long long waiting list in the past.  That's why people have questions they want answered.

Bobsag3, that one is not from me but a copycat who brought sample chips. He bascially somehow get some info of my early design that has a main defect in it.

From my understanding Minersource is selling the JTMiner.  Bobsag3 has posted pics in you all's threads of his miner being delivered.

Also my comment in regards to post sounding like a riddle or guessing game was not about the grammar itself more so just you bullet the list and the post seem to just be a story not an answer.

I don't think the product is a scam at all but mainly the marketing for a new product is not helping.  As you know bitcoin technology moves fast and the dodging of questions does scare new customers, esp ones who have been on long long waiting list in the past.  That's why people have questions they want answered.

JTMiner and JiangTian Miner are the same. But Minersource got a different brand miner. We have already warned him about it.

Warned him about what?

Are these two products sourced from the same design/production company? They look very similar.   JTMiner vs JiangTian Miner?  The name is almost the same too.

I have this exact miner- looks and runs well.

I have tons of pics of my own, as well as a full dump of the Pi. The language it came with was Chinese, but we have already translated it, and changed out the PHP files in the image to change to English.

http://imgur.com/a/tcimG

https://i.imgur.com/aE5SuXg.jpg?1

As i know, the chip is A1 indeed, they buy it directly from the factory who produce them. bitmine is not the only company who have the right to sell A1, the factory of china who produce it also have the right to sell them, that is what happened now.

I don't want to spend too much time on that steal issue, i have confidence that my miner are bought from one professional factory, i don't think they can steal so much chips to built more than 1000 unit. We have the deal with factory and they will offer us 600 unit before 10 March, if he cannot hand the miner to us by then, he will pay us a large huge of money for compensate, do you still think that this person built the miner by stealing the chip?

Well if anyone wants to check... I have a dump of the rPI image it came with... should be easy to see what CGminer driver it uses right?

Unfortunately, you are NOT our authorized distributor. The miners you sell are NOT made by us.

Bobsag3, that one is not from me but a copycat who brought sample chips. He bascially somehow get some info of my early design that has a main defect in it.

Yet all 3 boxes I have gotten from 3 different sellers all are the same exact box, down to firmware + pi image and case PSU and blades.

You either have some SERIOUS leaks going on, or are not the originating factory to begin with.

That's our old design. The new design is Only in JTminer now and not being cloned.

If you check the news http://bitmine.ch/?page_id=863, you should know bitmine is just in co-operation with some Chinese company. They just bought the chip from the Chinese company and name it as "Coincraft A1" chip. The Chinese company can also sell the A1 chip. They can call it any name they want like "ABC A1" chip. So the question comes: Does the "Coincraft A1" chip means "A1" chip？I don't think so. This is something like Mcdonalds can make their hamburger and KFC can make their own too.

We do NOT buy chips from bitmine and have no business with them.

Designed from scratch, Bitmine’s Coincraft A1 is a third generation Bitcoin Mining IC developed by Bitmine in co-operation with a team of expert engineers from Innosilicon.

1. The chips out of Foundry at last Dec. 28, and our sample system came out at Jan, 5.

I'm assuming that the R&D funds came from bitmine and it's customers and that Innosilicon was contracted by bitmine for R&D, ergo, bitmine retains IP rights of the A1 chip. Unless the use of the A1 chip in these Chinese 28nm miners has been authorised by bitmine, what we're seeing here is corporate theft and entities being in possession of or receiving these miners, liable for a criminal offence.

11. ......  the max our system can go is around 1.3T.

Is there anyone other than bobsag3 that has verified the existence of these devices ?

I'm very interested in acquiring one, have been speaking with seeksilence in PM's to order one, but my gut is telling me to exercise restraint for the time being and not buy one before more members verify these things; I don't want to be a Guinea Pig and take the risk right now - Have been burned too many times in the past.

Where are you in States? I already have a system sent out to me and it will arrive within days. But I am in SF, CA.

That's a mighty big assumption that you are basing your ergo on. Just because they worked with Innosilicon, doesn't necessarily mean they own the rights to the chip.

Precisely, we are the owner of the IP inside the A1 chip and the major contributor to the know-how of the inner workings that led to its development. We are aware of things like the one happening here and we even made a press release news concerning this matter:

http://bitmine.ch/?p=5178

Whoever purchases these does that on its own risk and may be liable in its own country since we hold IP on that.

Yes, that's China.

Precisely, we are the owner of the IP inside the A1 chip and the major contributor to the know-how of the inner workings that led to its development. We are aware of things like the one happening here and we even made a press release news concerning this matter:

http://bitmine.ch/?p=5178

Whoever purchases these does that on its own risk and may be liable in its own country since we hold IP on that.

Yes, that's China.

Giorgio，please clarify in legal term:

Does Innosilicon have right to sell the chips or not?

10. We will give a production presentation in next Weds. day (Shanghai time), and one thing is for sure, those sample units you received never went longer period of testing. Neither some parts on their board are up to the standards you like to see, so I have to say "Good luck".

I have a tracking number, so *something* is being sent to me, for what it's worth.

The *something* is a JTminer. Can't wait for your review.   :)

Why would ckolivas incriminate himself?

Why would he be incriminating himself?

Precisely, we are the owner of the IP inside the A1 chip and the major contributor to the know-how of the inner workings that led to its development. We are aware of things like the one happening here and we even made a press release news concerning this matter:

http://bitmine.ch/?p=5178

Whoever purchases these does that on its own risk and may be liable in its own country since we hold IP on that.

Yes, that's China.

Giorgio，please clarify in legal term:

Does Innosilicon have right to sell the chips or not?

QuestionTime, for all we know Bitmine was out of cash and had dud chips, I know my first batch A1s I got won't come alive until 850mv, so how do we know they didn't do an IP deal with the chip manufacturer to produce a more efficient 2nd batch? Until someone gets a court judgment banning the import of Chinese A1's it's not a crime.

QuestionTime, for all we know Bitmine was out of cash and had dud chips, I know my first batch A1s I got won't come alive until 850mv, so how do we know they didn't do an IP deal with the chip manufacturer to produce a more efficient 2nd batch? Until someone gets a court judgment banning the import of Chinese A1's it's not a crime.

Don't need a court judgement for Customs / Border Protection to seize counterfeit or pirated goods. In some jurisdictions, importing and/or possession of such goods is considered a criminal offence.

On another note, potential customers should consider if there could be issues with their supply of the ASIC chip. GlobalFoundries and similar would be very hesitant to produce product where there is ambiguity regarding IP rights. Sure, the Chinese assemblers may be able to deliver initially, but when they run out of chips a lot of customers are going to be left holding the bag if they don't have their own supply of chips.

Don't need a court judgement for Customs / Border Protection to seize counterfeit or pirated goods. In some jurisdictions, importing and/or possession of such goods is considered a criminal offence.

On another note, potential customers should consider if there could be issues with their supply of the ASIC chip. GlobalFoundries and similar would be very hesitant to produce product where there is ambiguity regarding IP rights. Sure, the Chinese assemblers may be able to deliver initially, but when they run out of chips a lot of customers are going to be left holding the bag if they don't have their own supply of chips.

Why would ckolivas incriminate himself?

They asked me to review it I said I would not, as I am not in the business of reviewing hardware or supporting any manufacturer. They then offered to send me hardware, to which I said I would graciously accept it - to make it possible for them to submit their driver code for inclusion to master cgminer and have me help them. When the hardware arrives I will gladly validate that it exists, hashes etc, but I cannot vouch for the company's business in any other way since I am not a customer as such.

They asked me to review it I said I would not, as I am not in the business of reviewing hardware or supporting any manufacturer. They then offered to send me hardware, to which I said I would graciously accept it - to make it possible for them to submit their driver code for inclusion to master cgminer and have me help them. When the hardware arrives I will gladly validate that it exists, hashes etc, but I cannot vouch for the company's business in any other way since I am not a customer as such.

I have a tracking number, so *something* is being sent to me, for what it's worth.

Bullshit someone would have to win a court judgement before that happened. Otherwise the same could just be done to Bitmine. They have to PROVE that there are fake/Stolen/counterfeit versions of their proprietary protected IP. He'll they have to prove they actually have any Ip claim First!

Until this happens its game on.

Got it. It's a monstrosity with 3 external power supplies that I have to wire in myself... however even the power side needs to be screwed in with bare wires, and that's basically illegal to do in my country unless you're a certified A grade electrician... so I'm not sure exactly what to do with it yet  :-\

They asked me to review it I said I would not, as I am not in the business of reviewing hardware or supporting any manufacturer. They then offered to send me hardware, to which I said I would graciously accept it - to make it possible for them to submit their driver code for inclusion to master cgminer and have me help them. When the hardware arrives I will gladly validate that it exists, hashes etc, but I cannot vouch for the company's business in any other way since I am not a customer as such.

This may be relevant for you ckolivas: http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/legis/vic/consol_act/ca195882/s88.html

As there seems to be a demand for these Chinese miners based on the 28nm CoinCraft A1 in Australia, I've referred this and other threads on similar machines to the Australian Federal Police for some clarification as to whether it would be lawful to import and be in possession of these machines.

More vendors means more competition which is always good for customers. However customers should be able to confidently make purchases in good faith that the machines are 100% legitimately manufactured and not have to potentially face legal sanctions later on after parting with their hard earned money.

It seems giorgiomassa from bitmine could not answer this simple question: Does Innosilicon have right to sell the chips or not?

Also I just found out giorgiomassa deleted his post here.

Seems I have to repeat this: There is no legal issue for JTminer.  

Got it. It's a monstrosity with 3 external power supplies that I have to wire in myself... however even the power side needs to be screwed in with bare wires, and that's basically illegal to do in my country unless you're a certified A grade electrician... so I'm not sure exactly what to do with it yet  :-\

External power supplies??  Got a picture?

@QuestionTime: I suggest you to open a new thread to ask giorgiomassa from bitmine to answer the question:
--------------------------------
Giorgio，please clarify in legal term:

Does Innosilicon have right to sell the chips or not?
--------------------------------

Don't act like a child.

Giorgio deleted his own post in this thread, sound strange?

It's as per the opening post, but with one extra power supply (presumably a spare/redundancy). Here's some photos, including a baseball cap for size comparison:

http://ck.kolivas.org/pictures/JTMiner/

Or was his post "moderated"?

Uggh.. wouldn't be an issue for me to wire it up here in the UK but I thought it was gonna look more like the Dragon miners (massive black box with two ATX PSUs) like bobsag got. That one looks half finished, mind you if it works I could grow to love it :)

Uggh.. wouldn't be an issue for me to wire it up here in the UK but I thought it was gonna look more like the Dragon miners (massive black box with two ATX PSUs) like bobsag got.

I was not aware there was anything claiming these were stolen apart from some questionable post on an unrelated forum with machine translation? If you can point me to reasonable suspicion these are stolen goods I'd of course have no interest in reviewing or promoting them - heck it would make handling them and not trying to wire them up much easier, just give them to the AFP. I'm very open about all my actions and put my real name to my actions here at all times and have never tried to hide my identity so of course I wouldn't go incriminating myself knowingly.

Precisely, we are the owner of the IP inside the A1 chip and the major contributor to the know-how of the inner workings that led to its development. We are aware of things like the one happening here and we even made a press release news concerning this matter:

http://bitmine.ch/?p=5178

Whoever purchases these does that on its own risk and may be liable in its own country since we hold IP on that.

Yes, that's China.

+1

Precisely, we are the owner of the IP inside the A1 chip and the major contributor to the know-how of the inner workings that led to its development. We are aware of things like the one happening here and we even made a press release news concerning this matter:

http://bitmine.ch/?p=5178

Whoever purchases these does that on its own risk and may be liable in its own country since we hold IP on that.

when purchasing from an unauthorized distributor because most probably they’re a scam or a reseller of lower-grade, non-working or counterfeit ASICs

Sure it's easy to wire up. But it's also illegal to do mains wiring yourself here. PSUs would have been much simpler, but in fact these are much higher quality and more expensive than regular PSUs.

@QuestionTime: Why are you feared to ask simple question to Giorgio from Bitmine? You should question everyone if you have doubt or you have some purpose for the misleading information. We do not have any business with Bitmine. Also Bitmine could not even put the answer in legal term to the question:
Does Innosilicon have right to sell the chips or not?

Do you see Innosilicon on this list: http://bitmine.ch/?page_id=5204

@QuestionTime: Why are you feared to ask simple question to Giorgio from Bitmine? You should question everyone if you have doubt or you have some purpose for the misleading information. We do not have any business with Bitmine. Also Bitmine could not even put the answer in legal term to the question:
Does Innosilicon have right to sell the chips or not?

Is this the post you're saying was removed?


Feh this is ugly and I'd seen none of it cos there's too much forum activity to keep track of.

The website caution is:

Where does it say anything about stolen goods?

Sure it's easy to wire up. But it's also illegal to do mains wiring yourself here. PSUs would have been much simpler, but in fact these are much higher quality and more expensive than regular PSUs.

http://bitmine.ch/?page_id=863
Designed from scratch, Bitmine’s Coincraft A1 is a third generation Bitcoin Mining IC developed by Bitmine in co-operation with a team of expert engineers from Innosilicon. Targeting the highest possible power efficiency, the A1 is made to be deployed in huge binary trees structures within large scale private or public mining pools.

@QuestionTime : everyone knows they are in cooperation!

You are always avoiding to answer the question:

http://bitmine.ch/?page_id=863
Designed from scratch, Bitmine’s Coincraft A1 is a third generation Bitcoin Mining IC developed by Bitmine in co-operation with a team of expert engineers from Innosilicon. Targeting the highest possible power efficiency, the A1 is made to be deployed in huge binary trees structures within large scale private or public mining pools.

@QuestionTime : everyone knows they are in cooperation!

It would not be a simple matter of calling an electrician to wire the machine to mains if there are no compliance marks.

The bitmine CoinCraft A1 chips used in these Chinese 28nm miners were not legally obtained from bitmine or its authorised distributors.

http://bitmine.ch/?page_id=863
Designed from scratch, Bitmine’s Coincraft A1 is a third generation Bitcoin Mining IC developed by Bitmine in co-operation with a team of expert engineers from Innosilicon. Targeting the highest possible power efficiency, the A1 is made to be deployed in huge binary trees structures within large scale private or public mining pools.

@QuestionTime : everyone knows they are in cooperation!

You are always avoiding to answer the question:

Precisely, we are the owner of the IP inside the A1 chip and the major contributor to the know-how of the inner workings that led to its development. We are aware of things like the one happening here and we even made a press release news concerning this matter:

http://bitmine.ch/?p=5178

Whoever purchases these does that on its own risk and may be liable in its own country since we hold IP on that.

Yes, that's China.

yes, I know our company  has arrange someone  to pick it up, wire it up ,and send it back to CK.

Also , i like to point out. JT miner spend lot's of effort in the firmware and Pi side. they use the ST MCU. the firmware is written from 0. after JTminer use the ST MCU. some vendors' solution seems to have interests in ST MCU too:)

The Pi board can drive up to 8 boards (in lab we do), and each MCU to control the two SPI high speed chain. in this way, give the whole system more flexibility and scalability. it's not a small job can be done in a very short time, actually they spend one month in hardware and software with 3 high profile engineers.  

so please show some respect, JTminer are the firmware author and some Pi's controller code talking to the ASIC boards

Put the discussion on hold for the time being. I'm asking bitmine directly for I certainly do not want to be put in the middle of such controversy. I can certainly see a number of possibilities for how it has ended in this stalemate, and it is not clear to me that there is incontrovertible evidence saying that JT produced these illegally, nor that any stealing was involved. A statement from bitmine is the only thing that can clear this up one way or another. If bitmine do not respond then I have to assume Innosilicon do indeed have the right to produce exact copies and sell these chips.

Precisely, we are the owner of the IP inside the A1 chip and the major contributor to the know-how of the inner workings that led to its development. We are aware of things like the one happening here and we even made a press release news concerning this matter:

http://bitmine.ch/?p=5178

Whoever purchases these does that on its own risk and may be liable in its own country since we hold IP on that.

Yes, that's China.

Bitmine have already put up a list of authorised distributors: http://bitmine.ch/?page_id=5204. If the hardware has been originally acquired from an entity not on that list, it's most likely counterfeit or stolen.


You may assume all you want, but we have yet to see a statement from Innosilicon about this issue whereas bitmine have already made their position quite clear. On the current balance of probabilities it would appear these Chinese machines based on the 28nm CoinCraft A1 are indeed manufactured from stolen tech.

The message you keep quoting was removed which is why I said it raises a number of possibilities. While I appreciate your suspicions bringing to light these allegations, you are unable to conclusively say anything. I've made no assumptions, I just want a clear statement from bitmine regarding this manufacturer. The claims regarding stealing or counterfeiting are as you are no doubt aware very serious allegations and if they do not come forth with these allegations and stick to only non-specific cautions on their site, then I have to give JTminer the benefit of the doubt. So depending on how (and if) they respond, I will be getting the hardware working with an alternative power source and continue down the software path which is all I was originally interested in - or - I will hand the hardware over the AFP.

Precisely, we are the owner of the IP inside the A1 chip and the major contributor to the know-how of the inner workings that led to its development. We are aware of things like the one happening here and we even made a press release news concerning this matter:

http://bitmine.ch/?p=5178

Whoever purchases these does that on its own risk and may be liable in its own country since we hold IP on that.

Yes, that's China.

It's as per the opening post, but with one extra power supply (presumably a spare/redundancy). Here's some photos, including a baseball cap for size comparison:

http://ck.kolivas.org/pictures/JTMiner/

The possibilities raised regarding the removal of that message should come second to conclusively identifying who removed the message.

Based on that quote from the CEO of bitmine (source of R&D funds and owner of chip IP) and the fact that Innosillicon (contracted design house with no foundry), JianTian, JT, Dragon, LA1THS, etc (assemblers) are not on the authorised distributors list, I can conclusively say that these Chinese machines based on the 28nm CoinCraft A1 chip have not been manufactured from hardware legitimately obtained from the owners of the chip IP, bitmine.

Bitmine can not be expected to issue a statement for every manufacturer that pops up with hardware with bitmine tech inside. I assume, therefore, that's why they've put up a list of authorised distributors of bitmine tech http://bitmine.ch/?page_id=5204. However, further confirmation can only be a good thing. For the sake of everyone involved I wish you all the best in this endeavour and encourage you to publish the request for clarification from bitmine and any associated correspondence here in the public domain ideally in another thread.

It's as per the opening post, but with one extra power supply (presumably a spare/redundancy). Here's some photos, including a baseball cap for size comparison:

http://ck.kolivas.org/pictures/JTMiner/

Sorry for off but  :-* STI.

"I can conclusively say that these Chinese machines based on the 28nm CoinCraft A1 chip have not been manufactured from hardware legitimately obtained from the owners of the chip IP, bit mine."


A few things i'd like to point out:

1) Bitmine said they were the owner of the ip inside the chip, it doesn't mean only Bitmine can sell the chip. IP inside doesn't mean a lot. you need a bunch of money to turn into a real chip.
2) Bitmine said they are the vendor of "Coincraft A1", and they own the trademark "CoinCraft" , so only Bitmine and his authorized channel can sell "CoinCraft" A1, right?
3) JTminer never said they use "CoinCraft" A1.
4) while JTMiner are day and night busy producing their 1000+ machines, someone are wasting time on nonsense issues
5) i happen to know, there is a video showing their mining facility. it's serious business, and large investment. bitcoins world has lot's scam. but this time, give some respect before you are 100% percent sure, and mind your language.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86hZGZAMUHQ‍

The possibilities raised regarding the removal of that message should come second to conclusively identifying who removed the message.

Based on that quote from the CEO of bitmine (source of R&D funds and owner of chip IP) and the fact that Innosillicon (contracted design house with no foundry), JianTian, JT, Dragon, LA1THS, etc (assemblers) are not on the authorised distributors list, I can conclusively say that these Chinese machines based on the 28nm CoinCraft A1 chip have not been manufactured from hardware legitimately obtained from the owners of the chip IP, bitmine.

Bitmine can not be expected to issue a statement for every manufacturer that pops up with hardware with bitmine tech inside. I assume, therefore, that's why they've put up a list of authorised distributors of bitmine tech http://bitmine.ch/?page_id=5204. However, further confirmation can only be a good thing. For the sake of everyone involved I wish you all the best in this endeavour and encourage you to publish the request for clarification from bitmine and any associated correspondence here in the public domain ideally in another thread.

A few things i'd like to point out:

1) Bitmine said they were the owner of the ip inside the chip, it doesn't mean only Bitmine can sell the chip. IP inside doesn't mean a lot. you need a bunch of money to turn into a real chip.
2) Bitmine said they are the vendor of "Coincraft A1", and they own the trademark "CoinCraft" , so only Bitmine and his authorized channel can sell "CoinCraft" A1, right?
3) JTminer never said they use "CoinCraft" A1.
4) while JTMiner are day and night busy producing their 1000+ machines, someone are wasting time on nonsense issues
5) i happen to know, there is a video showing their mining facility. it's serious business, and large investment. bitcoins world has lot's scam. but this time, give some respect before you are 100% percent sure, and mind your language.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86hZGZAMUHQ‍

Exactly, the web page with the "list of authorised resellers" is a load of old cack. Technobit is making miners using the chips, as are bitcoinultra, neither of which is listed as authorised resllers.

In fact the main authorised reseller are also being hauled over the coals because they are months late delivering as are bitmine themselves! Sounds alot like sour grapes to me.

The main point is bitmine themselves can't be trusted, they screwed all their preorder customers, and at the end of the day its just one persons (Giorgio) word against another, if bitmine are so sure that they are being ripped off then they should put some of those preorder millions where their mouth is and sue someone.

Until that happens, and they win, then all bets are off, and as a consumer I don't think it matters a whit what you buy, unless your an idiot and start shouting about all your kit all over the net no-one is going to know.

"I can conclusively say that these Chinese machines based on the 28nm CoinCraft A1 chip have not been manufactured from hardware legitimately obtained from the owners of the chip IP, bit mine."


A few things i'd like to point out:

1) Bitmine said they were the owner of the ip inside the chip, it doesn't mean only Bitmine can sell the chip. IP inside doesn't mean a lot. you need a bunch of money to turn into a real chip.
2) Bitmine said they are the vendor of "Coincraft A1", and they own the trademark "CoinCraft" , so only Bitmine and his authorized channel can sell "CoinCraft" A1, right?
3) JTminer never said they use "CoinCraft" A1.
4) while JTMiner are day and night busy producing their 1000+ machines, someone are wasting time on nonsense issues
5) i happen to know, there is a video showing their mining facility. it's serious business, and large investment. bitcoins world has lot's scam. but this time, give some respect before you are 100% percent sure, and mind your language.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86hZGZAMUHQ‍

I guess the reason THAT POST was removed because I posted it to the bosses of innosilicion, and they disputed the claim.

Technobit and others got their chips from zefir or direct from bitmine, nothing wrong there.

You cant have it both ways. They aren't on the page so according to you they can't be trusted.

I guess the reason THAT POST was removed because I posted it to the bosses of innosilicion, and they disputed the claim.

A few things i'd like to point out:

1) Bitmine said they were the owner of the ip inside the chip, it doesn't mean only Bitmine can sell the chip. IP inside doesn't mean a lot. you need a bunch of money to turn into a real chip.
2) Bitmine said they are the vendor of "Coincraft A1", and they own the trademark "CoinCraft" , so only Bitmine and his authorized channel can sell "CoinCraft" A1, right?
3) JTminer never said they use "CoinCraft" A1.
4) while JTMiner are day and night busy producing their 1000+ machines, someone are wasting time on nonsense issues
5) i happen to know, there is a video showing their mining facility. it's serious business, and large investment. bitcoins world has lot's scam. but this time, give some respect before you are 100% percent sure, and mind your language.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86hZGZAMUHQ‍

You keep quoting a 'retracted' statement and the owner of that statement is yet to reply to a few people to explain fully if his statement is legit, if it was deleted/moderated, he can come and let everyone know what happened and expose it all for everyone to see, it's really easy to do, but still nothing...

Take a walz over to the bitmine thread and you'll notice what a complete mess they are in, scam accusations, locked thread and all and it seems as though Giorgio is quite comfortable with deleting statements, even on their website. By what is going on there I don't believe anything that has been said so far and I doubt they secured anything in the rush to amass money... it's starting to look more and more like a BFL every day.

Precisely, we are the owner of the IP inside the A1 chip and the major contributor to the know-how of the inner workings that led to its development. We are aware of things like the one happening here and we even made a press release news concerning this matter:

http://bitmine.ch/?p=5178

Whoever purchases these does that on its own risk and may be liable in its own country since we hold IP on that.

Yes, that's China.

Thanks for reasonable people's support and also thanks QuestionTime for a debate to make things clear. BTW, QuestionTime made a big mistake to challenge us instead of other agent to sell copycatted miner since JTminer is the original :).

A lot of information come out, let's do a summary:
1. dimension: 426*380*200, smaller size than other miners.
2. Can do overclock.
   i. extra power supply can give you the ability to over clock. The boards are equipped with 32+A current capacity power supply per chip:), in 25G/s mode, it only consume 20A per chip. so it has room to do the over clock.
   ii. Linear Tech power supply + careful design gives the ripple only at 20mv:), it will stabilize chips using the higher clock without too much HW error
  
   Kind reminder: For those who bought a copycatted miner from other reseller, please be very cautious to do overclock, it will burn the chip and board.
3.  JT miner spend lot's of effort in the firmware and Pi side. they use the ST MCU. the firmware is written from 0. after JTminer use the ST MCU. some vendors' solution seems to have interests in ST MCU too:)
4. The Pi board can drive up to 8 boards (in lab we do), and each MCU to control the two SPI high speed chain. in this way, give the whole system more flexibility and scalability.
5. We do not have authorized distributor now. Only a few sample units are being sent out.
6. The order for 1200T is to be completed soon. We also have chips in stock for future business.
7. Video link http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86hZGZAMUHQ‍

Related posts:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=470386.msg5564356#msg5564356
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=470386.msg5561528#msg5561528

Technobit and others got their chips from zefir or direct from bitmine, nothing wrong there.

8. Manufactured with stolen chips - good chance of criminal liability if in possession outside China

It is as simple as that.

Bitmine and Innosilicon worked together to produce the chips, so both of them have rights to produce/resell the chips.

But even as Bitmine had an early start on availability of chips and great cheap costs, they FAILED to deliver their system successfuly and on time.

So AFTER my systems of 60T RUNNING over 1 month, and start to sell to public, Bitmine's system still NOT seeying anywhere.

From pespective of marketing strategy, this accusation is just a tactic to slow down our sales.

I´m a little bit confused.... how many representatives for the JingTian miner is on bitcointalk?

(Seeksilence, skyfromwell and JT miner)

It is confusing, but I think at least three different Chinese companies are currently offering similar 1TH products that all seem to be using the Bitmine A1 chips.

There´s more like 4+ different companies selling these 1TH miners. They´re all using the same blade design, A1 chips, raspberries, etc... the only difference between them is the casing and the color of the cables (From what have been revealed so far).

Yes,... and pricing from $5000 to $8000

Generally funny, I have ordered miners from Bitmine, already two months late. Now i can get faster from Chinese manufacturers than directly from Bitminy. Crazy.

I´m a little bit confused.... how many representatives for the JingTian miner is on bitcointalk?

(Seeksilence, skyfromwell and JT miner)

Yes. Those are from my company.

There´s more like 4+ different companies selling these 1TH miners. They´re all using the same blade design, A1 chips, raspberries, etc... the only difference between them is the casing and the color of the cables (From what have been revealed so far).

Alright, thanks for making that official  :)
How about the pictures from the demonstration you held, will they be uploaded soon?

I will let someone put more pictures here.

I need to pick up my system now. LOL. I will try to do a good over clock then report to your guys.

I agree. Both Bitmine and Bitmine and Innosilicon worked together to develop the chips, and no-one has posted any proof as to exactly what legal rights Innosilicon has to resell the chips, but it's certainly plausible that they do have some resale agreement based on the contract between the two companies. Innosilicon could have paid for part of the development in order to be able to retain some ownership of the IP.

It sounds like QuestionTime is simply spreading FUD to try to show down a potential competitor to Bitmine. Either post proof to back up your claims of IP theft or STFU.

Precisely, we are the owner of the IP inside the A1 chip and the major contributor to the know-how of the inner workings that led to its development. We are aware of things like the one happening here and we even made a press release news concerning this matter:

http://bitmine.ch/?p=5178

Whoever purchases these does that on its own risk and may be liable in its own country since we hold IP on that.

Yes, that's China.

I want one of these but don't have enough BTC left, spent it all on Ants!

All time total payout: 321.92650637 BTC + 24.80077329 BTC Unpaid Balance   ;D

--------------------------------------------------------
Recent summary:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=470386.msg5571215#msg5571215
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=470386.msg5572959#msg5572959

for @QuestionTime
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=470386.msg5579060#msg5579060

Bitmine and Innosilicon worked together to produce the chips, so both of them have rights to produce/resell the chips.

Precisely, we are the owner of the IP inside the A1 chip and the major contributor to the know-how of the inner workings that led to its development. We are aware of things like the one happening here and we even made a press release news concerning this matter:

http://bitmine.ch/?p=5178

Whoever purchases these does that on its own risk and may be liable in its own country since we hold IP on that.

Yes, that's China.

Im looking forward to the OC guide- Do you think a EVGA 1300W g2 is enough to overclock, or should we get something higher?

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817438011

Does Jing Tian miner means "Today's miner" ?

I am interessted in your miners, but 8000 dollar is way too high.
For example, a november KnC was priced at $ 5,585.24 ships to The Netherlands.
They were doing average 670 GH/s, with the new firmware they a doing 700+.
For example I use 670 GH/s.
$ 5,585.24/670 GH/s=8,336179104477612 $ per GH/s delivered end november and begin december.
Your miners are 8 dollars per GH/s delivered at mid March.

You called your competitors copycats, but why are their websites registered before yours and launched before yours?
They also start to bulk ship at mid March, but at 19999 renminbi (Yuan), which is  $ 3266,22 and on par or a bit cheaper than BITMAIN Antminer S1 per Dollar per GH/s.

Your product doesn't have any advantage  over the other manufacturers.
I am not attacking you, but I am stuck wit questions.
Can you please answer them?

Bob, it is not problem of the power. It is the problem with the system you got. LOL.

Don't over-clock it. The one who sell to you using cheap components in the board, so over-clock is NOT going to work there.

It is simple.

Our first 1300 systems are being purchased by the mining facility. You can see the video on Youtube posted here. That is why we act late for sell publicly. And the website stuff.
Also the price is no longer 8K, but around 5.5K now.
About the 19999 RMB, that is a market trick, the true story is whatever system you bought from them, they will mine freely for first 10 days before ship to you. But even that, they barely make even at that price level (even considering cheap components).
But why they do that?

1. They want to kill all competitors off.

2. If they can do that, they will be the only A1 system maker in China so they can go back to push the chip prices down.

But so far, they didn't sell too much, and chip makers are not back down. So every interesting ahead...

Please stop telling me what I do or dont have. These are not knockoffs- I have been running them OC for weeks now, and they also look identical to all the other units me and my assosiates purchased. Same design, PCBs chips, etc as the legitimate ones. Oh, and and the PCBs + parts numbers match up with the ones your selling directly.

Your miner is not from us and it is not the same as JTminer. Basically, the JTminer with smaller size is much stable and can do overclock. Please ask the suggestion from who you bought it if you want to do overclock. We are not responsible for what is not from us. Thanks.

Recent summary:
Advantage and difference from other miner:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=470386.msg5571215#msg5571215
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=470386.msg5580260#msg5580260
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=470386.msg5580260#msg5580260

---------------------------------------------
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=470386.msg5572959#msg5572959
Bitmine and Innosilicon worked together to produce the chips, so both of them have rights to produce/resell the chips.

for @QuestionTime : We reserve our right to take legal action for your libel!
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=470386.msg5579060#msg5579060

JT, it seems like a Chinese manufacturer has ripped off your designs and is selling them as their own. Wait.. where have I seen that before  ;D

Libel? It sounds like you have a statement from Innosillicon contradicting bitmine's claims. Please do share.

just checked your website it is currently saying that the only machine is out of stock and please provide  some detailed information about your miner on your site its nothing there and also would love to see your machine in action like a video on your website or pictures of your rigs mining !! i'll be highly interested then !

What is actually Innosilicon's current position on this matter is this, and I quote from their web :
"Innosilicon Announce its 28nm Bitcoin Mining IP core in Production
Innosilicon is proudly announcing that BitMine AG, a leading bitcoin mining system supplier, has licensed its ultra low power Hash IP Core for production at GF 28nm HPP process. This IP is designed from scratch using patent pending, customized VLSI computational Marco cells developed to squeeze the best possible power efficiency in 28nm. Its ultra high power efficiency and thermal reliability allows BitMine AG to pack just the right amount of innovative hash horse power inside a A1 CoinCraft ASIC. The availability of this 28nm hardened IP core instantly raised the bar in a crowded 28nm bitcoin mining ASIC field."

It is simple.

Our first 1300 systems are being purchased by the mining facility. You can see the video on Youtube posted here. That is why we act late for sell publicly. And the website stuff.
Also the price is no longer 8K, but around 5.5K now.
About the 19999 RMB, that is a market trick, the true story is whatever system you bought from them, they will mine freely for first 10 days before ship to you. But even that, they barely make even at that price level (even considering cheap components).
But why they do that?

1. They want to kill all competitors off.

2. If they can do that, they will be the only A1 system maker in China so they can go back to push the chip prices down.

But so far, they didn't sell too much, and chip makers are not back down. So every interesting ahead...

You claimed that your competitors use cheap components and that it is a marketing trick to sell at 19999 yuan with losses, even if they use the miners to mine for 10 days before they sending it out they will not break even.
The only purpose is to kill competitors and become the only A1 system maker in China, which I find strange, because all your competitors lowers the prices.
So they are killing each others, so that 1 company will left to be profitable.

This story is really hard to believe.
Even using inexpensive components, the production costs and other costs will not exceed 19999 yuan.
5 Antminers use more parts than 1 miners from your competitors, and BITMAIN don't really use cheap parts.
Beside that, BITMAIN has to pay 5 times shipping fees to ship out 1 Terahash of 5 OC 200 GH/s Antminers and still be able to make profit.
BITMAIN can still lower their prices further and still be profitable.

To be honest, I believe you disagree with your competitors to lower their prices to stay competitive and still be profitable.
You want to sell your product at a PREMIUM.
I think this will not work anymore, you have way too many competition now.
The BFL, AVALON and Hashlast era is long gone.
People won't be easy to be fooled for a second or third time.

You claimed that your competitors use cheap components and that it is a marketing trick to sell at 19999 yuan with losses, even if they use the miners to mine for 10 days before they sending it out they will not break even.
The only purpose is to kill competitors and become the only A1 system maker in China, which I find strange, because all your competitors lowers the prices.
So they are killing each others, so that 1 company will left to be profitable.

This story is really hard to believe.
Even using inexpensive components, the production costs and other costs will not exceed 19999 yuan.
5 Antminers use more parts than 1 miners from your competitors, and BITMAIN don't really use cheap parts.
Beside that, BITMAIN has to pay 5 times shipping fees to ship out 1 Terahash of 5 OC 200 GH/s Antminers and still be able to make profit.
BITMAIN can still lower their prices further and still be profitable.

To be honest, I believe you disagree with your competitors to lower their prices to stay competitive and still be profitable.
You want to sell your product at a PREMIUM.
I think this will not work anymore, you have way too many competition now.
The BFL, AVALON and Hashlast era is long gone.
People won't be easy to be fooled for a second or third time.

3000 is the sweet spot for device.

 Yeah, that's what I'm thinking myself with the 20nm KNC stuff coming online in the (hopefully) not-too-distant-future.

 Once these 1THs miners hit near $3k USD, I'll consider ordering one. As tempting as it is to pick one up for $5k, really having trouble pulling the trigger until we hear more reports from the field.

 The fact that they apparently sound like jet engines is a huge negative for me; the Antminers are "just right" in terms of db output IMO.

 Very nice to see higher horsepower system becoming available in relatively short order.

What is actually Innosilicon's current position on this matter is this, and I quote from their web :
"Innosilicon Announce its 28nm Bitcoin Mining IP core in Production
Innosilicon is proudly announcing that BitMine AG, a leading bitcoin mining system supplier, has licensed its ultra low power Hash IP Core for production at GF 28nm HPP process. This IP is designed from scratch using patent pending, customized VLSI computational Marco cells developed to squeeze the best possible power efficiency in 28nm. Its ultra high power efficiency and thermal reliability allows BitMine AG to pack just the right amount of innovative hash horse power inside a A1 CoinCraft ASIC. The availability of this 28nm hardened IP core instantly raised the bar in a crowded 28nm bitcoin mining ASIC field."

This might mean, that :

a) Bitmine.ch has patented (patent pending), their HPP proces (sublicenced from GF and forked), based on their Bitcoin Mining IP core
b) Innosilicon has given permission to Bitmine.ch to use their ultra-low-power Hash IP core for 28 nm DIE for chips produced by Innosilicon for Bitmine, and probably given only to Bitmine and nobody else.
c) Who did customized VLSI computational Marco cell (power train in 28 nm) - Synapse, Verisilicon, Innosilicon, Bitmine or GlobalFoundries is not known to me at this point. Also not known if this customized VLSI method is patented by someone.

Even though somebody could obtain licence from Innosilicon for power layer, other layers are still not Innosilicon property, so without Bitmine's sublicence on final design, full tapeout of cloned chips is not [legally] possible.

It has nothing to do with BRANDNAME - "COINCRAFT A1" as s BRAND, but with TOPOGRAPHIC DESIGN OF INTEGRATED CIRCUITS, which is SEPARATE LEVEL OF INTELECTUAL PROPERTY PROTECTION FROM BRAND(NAME) PROTECTION, patent pending according to Madrid Convention of the World Intelectual property organisation. Patents are accesible from WIPO portal, and they are many, and non of which are the property JingTian.

But PLEASE distinguish different systems.
The one sounds like a jet engine is NOT my system. My system is very quite.

 Fair point and thank you for the correction; I'm not fully aware of the competitive differences of the two different systems. It might be informative and helpful to possibly post a brief YouTube video recording the noise your particular product creates.

I think the that the typical consumer is really only going to care about:

1) When can I get it?
2) How much does it cost?
3) Will it do what I need it to?

Put the discussion on hold for the time being. I'm asking bitmine directly for I certainly do not want to be put in the middle of such controversy. I can easily see a number of possibilities for how it has ended in this stalemate, and it is not clear to me that there is incontrovertible evidence saying that JT produced these illegally, nor that any stealing was involved. A statement from bitmine is the only thing that can clear this up one way or another. If bitmine do not respond then I have to assume Innosilicon do indeed have the right to produce exact copies and sell these chips.

I've had official confirmation from bitmine directly that, while they do have ongoing dispute with a Chinese company, that I am free to develop for this device without fear of legal recourse provided the driver does not use the bitmine or coincraft name to reference any aspect of these devices or drivers. They have also said they will only release an official statement once the issue has been resolved. While this more or less confirms my own suspicions with respect to what's going on, I don't feel the need to speculate further on the matter and will return to concentrate purely on the software matters irrespective of what other people have to say on the issue.

Are you going to review their miner at the end? Or you will wait until legal issues are resolved. I saw your pictures but that was all, I am interested to see your review though

I'm waiting for someone here to sort out the power supply issues for me and I'll probably get it mining tomorrow, followed by a brief review. There are no legal issues affecting me, nor have I signed any agreement (In fact I refuse to be involved in any projects that require me to sign an NDA).

I have been in contact with skyfromwell and seeksilence for a few weeks now.

They have been very evasive on disclosing chips, pcb, and now even an evaluation unit.   Every single time a question came up...they have been very evasive.

And those answers actually led to more questions.


Here is my take:

From the sounds of it and the 1 on 1 dialogue with skyfromwell and seeksilence on QQ.

They probably have stolen or infringed on the Bitmine 28nm chip IP.   The demo unit they told me they would send 7 days ago has not arrived.   They came back and asked for $6000 USD.

If I am to be a distributor of their product I am not dropping $6000 on a unit that is worth $3000.

I work in the chip packaging industry as well...stuff like stealing chip IP happens a lot in China.

While, I do not doubt they do have a working miner, I would advise great caution until a trusted Bitcointalk member can verify they are running an entirely legitimate business.

Very Respectfully,

GreaterNinja

I have been in contact with skyfromwell and seeksilence for a few weeks now.

They have been very evasive on disclosing chips, pcb, and now even an evaluation unit.   Every single time a question came up...they have been very evasive.

And those answers actually led to more questions.


Here is my take:

From the sounds of it and the 1 on 1 dialogue with skyfromwell and seeksilence on QQ.

They probably have stolen or infringed on the Bitmine 28nm chip IP.   The demo unit they told me they would send 7 days ago has not arrived.   They came back and asked for $6000 USD.

If I am to be a distributor of their product I am not dropping $6000 on a unit that is worth $3000.

I work in the chip packaging industry as well...stuff like stealing chip IP happens a lot in China.

While, I do not doubt they do have a working miner, I would advise great caution until a trusted Bitcointalk member can verify they are running an entirely legitimate business.

Very Respectfully,

GreaterNinja

I've had official confirmation from bitmine directly that, while they do have ongoing dispute with a Chinese company, that I am free to develop for this device without fear of legal recourse provided the driver does not use the bitmine or coincraft name to reference any aspect of these devices or drivers. They have also said they will only release an official statement once the issue has been resolved. While this more or less confirms my own suspicions with respect to what's going on, I don't feel the need to speculate further on the matter and will return to concentrate purely on the software matters irrespective of what other people have to say on the issue.

Sour grapes. LOL.

I don't sell my system for $3K. Period.

Sour grapes. LOL.

I don't sell my system for $3K. Period.

You don't sell it for $6,000 either because you're priced out of the market.

6 g's is a ripoff fellas, I'd recommend sitting on your hands for the S2 announcement later this month.

Because if the S2 is priced around half of these $5k and $6k miners, you best believe everyone will buy out the stock as soon as Bitmain puts it online.

That would be money well spent, imo.

Price is NOT that high. And anyone wants to wait for Bitmine's NEVER coming system, then that's his/her choice.

Haha good one.  Bitmain, not Bitmine.  Bitmain is killing everyone right now.  They're redefining the pre-order model for the whole industry.

I think everybody should calm down a notch  ::)
The A1 drama here on Bitcointalk need to stop, it´s not productive anywhere.

From Innosilicons website:

Innosilicon Announce its 28nm Bitcoin Mining IP core in Production
Innosilicon is proudly announcing that BitMine AG, a leading bitcoin mining system supplier, has licensed its ultra low power Hash IP Core for production at GF 28nm HPP process. This IP is designed from scratch using patent pending, customized VLSI computational Marco cells developed to squeeze the best possible power efficiency in 28nm. Its ultra high power efficiency and thermal reliability allows BitMine AG to pack just the right amount of innovative hash horse power inside a A1 CoinCraft ASIC. The availability of this 28nm hardened IP core instantly raised the bar in a crowded 28nm bitcoin mining ASIC field.

No patent, no copyright.
Simple as that.

On the unit i have it looks linked to Innosilicon.

Footer on the index page is "<div id="footer">Copyright www.innosilicon.com.cn</div>"

Although that is a second index page that isn't displayed when connecting to the web admin. More delving to do.

What is actually Innosilicon's current position on this matter is this, and I quote from their web :
"Innosilicon Announce its 28nm Bitcoin Mining IP core in Production
Innosilicon is proudly announcing that BitMine AG, a leading bitcoin mining system supplier, has licensed its ultra low power Hash IP Core for production at GF 28nm HPP process. This IP is designed from scratch using patent pending, customized VLSI computational Marco cells developed to squeeze the best possible power efficiency in 28nm. Its ultra high power efficiency and thermal reliability allows BitMine AG to pack just the right amount of innovative hash horse power inside a A1 CoinCraft ASIC. The availability of this 28nm hardened IP core instantly raised the bar in a crowded 28nm bitcoin mining ASIC field."

This might mean, that :

a) Bitmine.ch has patented (patent pending), their HPP proces (sublicenced from GF and forked), based on their Bitcoin Mining IP core
b) Innosilicon has given permission to Bitmine.ch to use their ultra-low-power Hash IP core for 28 nm DIE for chips produced by Innosilicon for Bitmine, and probably given only to Bitmine and nobody else.
c) Who did customized VLSI computational Marco cell (power train in 28 nm) - Synapse, Verisilicon, Innosilicon, Bitmine or GlobalFoundries is not known to me at this point. Also not known if this customized VLSI method is patented by someone.

Even though somebody could obtain licence from Innosilicon for power layer, other layers are still not Innosilicon property, so without Bitmine's sublicence on final design, full tapeout of cloned chips is not [legally] possible.

It has nothing to do with BRANDNAME - "COINCRAFT A1" as s BRAND, but with TOPOGRAPHIC DESIGN OF INTEGRATED CIRCUITS, which is SEPARATE LEVEL OF INTELECTUAL PROPERTY PROTECTION FROM BRAND(NAME) PROTECTION, patent pending according to Madrid Convention of the World Intelectual property organisation. Patents are accesible from WIPO portal, and they are many, and non of which are the property JingTian.

I've also referred this and similar threads regarding the importation and possession of these Chinese A1 miners to the FBI for potential North American customers for further legal clarification.

Wow way to go...
A seller who wants to sue before doing even a single transaction.
I would be nervous to buy anything from jingtian not only more expensive than competitor he may even sue you if the miner got defective and your asking for warranty claiming i am libel LOL. ::)
Epic failll..

I've had official confirmation from bitmine directly that, while they do have ongoing dispute with a Chinese company, that I am free to develop for this device without fear of legal recourse provided the driver does not use the bitmine or coincraft name to reference any aspect of these devices or drivers. They have also said they will only release an official statement once the issue has been resolved. While this more or less confirms my own suspicions with respect to what's going on, I don't feel the need to speculate further on the matter and will return to concentrate purely on the software matters irrespective of what other people have to say on the issue.

Just becareful. We may sue you for defarmation.

I've also referred this and similar threads regarding the importation and possession of these Chinese A1 miners to the FBI for potential North American customers for further legal clarification.

Wow way to go...
A seller who wants to sue before doing even a single transaction.
I would be nervous to buy anything from jingtian not only more expensive than competitor he may even sue you if the miner got defective and your asking for warranty claiming i am libel LOL. ::)
Epic failll..

so if I understand - a forum member wants to get it clarified whether your product may be stolen physical/intellectual property, and you start throwing around words like libel, defamation, and threaten to sue?

I am walking away from this now - my trust in your product just went down dramatically.

this is too reminiscent of BFL_Josh...

Klondike_bar, I do not agree with you. Asking for a clarification and Calling FBI are totally different issues. You cannot call FBI to involve until you have valid proof, or else you could be sued for defamation.  Both JT Miner and Bitmine seems use the same A1 chip from a Chinese suppliers and as I understand, Bitmine do not have the patent of the chip. And it seems that Bitmine does not deny it. This seems a fact.

I am tracking new generation of 20nm ASIC miners which is available for US miners currently, JT miners is one of them. Even though JT Miner is not in US market yet, they do have real miners running very stably and they has more than 1000 miners order which are waiting in line.  It is a promising supplier which our US consumers should expect. Therefore we should focus on the fact not the rumor or emotional assertion. We do not want a scam and at the same time we do encourage the good 28nm miner suppliers to join to compete so we have more choice, especially the promising miner suppliers.

Klondike_bar, I do not agree with you. Asking for a clarification and Calling FBI are totally different issues. You cannot call FBI to involve until you have valid proof, or else you could be sued for defamation.  Both JT Miner and Bitmine seems use the same A1 chip from a Chinese suppliers and as I understand, Bitmine do not have the patent of the chip. And it seems that Bitmine does not deny it. This seems a fact.

I am tracking new generation of 20nm ASIC miners which is available for US miners currently, JT miners is one of them. Even though JT Miner is not in US market yet, they do have real miners running very stably and they has more than 1000 miners order which are waiting in line.  It is a promising supplier which our US consumers should expect. Therefore we should focus on the fact not the rumor or emotional assertion. We do not want a scam and at the same time we do encourage the good 28nm miner suppliers to join to compete so we have more choice, especially the promising miner suppliers.

For whoever interested:

Here is my board.

http://s161.photobucket.com/user/skyfromwell/media/skywellboard_zpsee2a6560.jpg.html?sort=3&o=0

If you look on the Left top, there will show you a label saying:

Skywell & Innosilicon

So Skywell is JianTian in English that is my company.

Everyone knows who Innosilicon is now.

So if Bitmine plays this dirty game, then pulls Innosilicon into it. Let's see if you can see one more A1 chip in the future.

so if I understand - a forum member wants to get it clarified whether your product may be stolen physical/intellectual property, and you start throwing around words like libel, defamation, and threaten to sue?

I am walking away from this now - my trust in your product just went down dramatically.

this is too reminiscent of BFL_Josh...

Skyfromwell wrote " So Skywell is JianTian in English that is my company"
The thread is titled "JingTian"...
Just to clarify; Is it JianTian or is it JingTian?  Wanting to make sure I am referencing the right entity when I pose my question below.
Guessing that it was just typoed in the post or the title....

And now to my question:
Are JointDoctor and jayson001 affiliated in any way with JianTian/JingTian)?

Nope, i´m just a prospective buyer.  8)

what on earth are you talking about? You use the word defamation like you know what it means, but I really don't think you actually understand the legal definition. Suggesting the product might be slightly illegitimate for many questionable reasons brought up in this thread is not defamatory. It is very different from something like saying you had a unit in your hands and making false claims about it when that isnt true.

I've also referred this and similar threads regarding the importation and possession of these Chinese A1 miners to the FBI for potential North American customers for further legal clarification.

Re: Official BITMINE CoinCraft series 28nm ASIC miners thread
January 20, 2014, 10:43:50 AM

Latest updates about the CoinCraft development:

Dear all,

These weeks were even crazier than the past ones. In just 3 weeks we did 3 revisions of the desk's hashing unit in order to achieve the expected performances, you can check the below pictures to see the work that was done on the various revisions. Everybody in the EE industry knows how long it takes to manufacture 4 layers board prototype, have them assembled and do research and measures on each board revision to find issues, we were able to do this only thanks to the efforts of our engineering team that worked overnight and during weekends.

What happened is that we had a condition where the single chips (or a pair of them) were working without problems at the expected performances, but when put on longer chains, performances were not stable for longer times. At a first revision of the board, we identified an issue with the reference clock, the oscillator wasn't powerful enough to drive all the 8 chips' reference clock inputs, so we had to add a clock divider. Plus, we had the need to drive an external reset, so we added that too.

On the second revision on the board, the clock divider was fixed but the next issues popped up with the decoupling of the power supply. Additionally, we removed the resistor dividers for the SPI signals and added level shifters.

On the third board yet another issue appeared due to parasitic interferences created by the high switching currents of the DCDC, this time requiring a more radical re-routing of the board layout. A team of 5 engineers worked on it these last days and we're awaiting the final revision for mid this week, where we don't expect to have additional issues anymore. Assuming that everything will be fine, production will be able to start during next week.

We are really trying to squeeze out every possible minute of delay but some things like the production of a 4 layers board cannot be accelerated that much due to physical constraints.

As soon as there will be more news I'll let you all know.

Thank you for your patience,

Giorgio

https://i.imgur.com/CZg7nRa.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/1plAQ5p.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/zmPe8nO.jpg

Simple answer to the question "Does Innosilicon have right to sell the chips or not?" will resolve the double.

So you purchased/licensed your chips from Innosilicon? Can you post a picture of the bare chips you use?

Of course not, what a FUD.

Bitmine has the right for exclusiv (speculation) distribution in Europe and the USA (speculation) and bought the license to produce the chip, which was produced at innosilicon for bitmine (facts). Whats innosilicon rights for distribution are in irrelevant as they are the producer, who selling licences. Bitmine claim, its their work has been stolen and I guess its up to the courts to decide whats going on, BUT i looks like that Bitmine is a bunch of amateurs, with 3 months delays and not able to drive the production to a level that can satisfy customers at all.

Of course not, what a FUD.

Bitmine has the right for exclusiv (speculation) distribution in Europe and the USA (speculation) and bought the license to produce the chip, which was produced at innosilicon for bitmine (facts). Whats innosilicon rights for distribution are in irrelevant as they are the producer, who selling licences. Bitmine claim, its their work has been stolen and I guess its up to the courts to decide whats going on, BUT i looks like that Bitmine is a bunch of amateurs, with 3 months delays and not able to drive the production to a level that can satisfy customers at all.

When Bitmine's first board design came up, my engineers are laughing and rolling on the floor. That was halirous. It was bound to fail.

After three reversions, we gave them the help by telling them using MTU. So their 4th reversion fnally works. But they are still not deliver a workable solution right now.

show us the mail or what ever

Pretty much everyone uisng a MCU solution is a copy from us.

Still, this does not change the fact that Innosilicon does not have the rights to produce and distribute the A1 chips without bitmine's permission.

Doubtful. Innosilicon was the one who actually engineered the chip.

What is actually Innosilicon's current position on this matter is this, and I quote from their web :
"Innosilicon Announce its 28nm Bitcoin Mining IP core in Production
Innosilicon is proudly announcing that BitMine AG, a leading bitcoin mining system supplier, has licensed its ultra low power Hash IP Core for production at GF 28nm HPP process. This IP is designed from scratch using patent pending, customized VLSI computational Marco cells developed to squeeze the best possible power efficiency in 28nm. Its ultra high power efficiency and thermal reliability allows BitMine AG to pack just the right amount of innovative hash horse power inside a A1 CoinCraft ASIC. The availability of this 28nm hardened IP core instantly raised the bar in a crowded 28nm bitcoin mining ASIC field."

This might mean, that :

a) Bitmine.ch has patented (patent pending), their HPP proces (sublicenced from GF and forked), based on their Bitcoin Mining IP core
b) Innosilicon has given permission to Bitmine.ch to use their ultra-low-power Hash IP core for 28 nm DIE for chips produced by Innosilicon for Bitmine, and probably given only to Bitmine and nobody else.
c) Who did customized VLSI computational Marco cell (power train in 28 nm) - Synapse, Verisilicon, Innosilicon, Bitmine or GlobalFoundries is not known to me at this point. Also not known if this customized VLSI method is patented by someone.

Even though somebody could obtain licence from Innosilicon for power layer, other layers are still not Innosilicon property, so without Bitmine's sublicence on final design, full tapeout of cloned chips is not [legally] possible.

It has nothing to do with BRANDNAME - "COINCRAFT A1" as s BRAND, but with TOPOGRAPHIC DESIGN OF INTEGRATED CIRCUITS, which is SEPARATE LEVEL OF INTELECTUAL PROPERTY PROTECTION FROM BRAND(NAME) PROTECTION, patent pending according to Madrid Convention of the World Intelectual property organisation. Patents are accesible from WIPO portal, and they are many, and non of which are the property JingTian.

Authorised distributors of bitmine tech: http://bitmine.ch/?page_id=5204 - unless the chips were sourced from one of these guys or bitmine themselves it's corporate theft.

Bitmine have already made themselves quite clear on the issue and until they've made a statement retracting the previous statement it's much more likely the the statement was deleted/moderated rather than retracted. Furthermore, we have yet to hear anything from Innosilicon to suggest that they have obtained the rights from bitmine to produce these chips for sale.

Certainly it's plausible Innosillion also have the rights to sell the chip, but it is also certainly plausible Innosilicon does not have the rights to sell the chip. In the absence of an official statement from Innosilicon contradicting the official statement from bitmine and the presence of the well known culture of rampant IP theft that goes on in China, on the balance of probabilities, it is much more likely the Chinese machines using 28nm A1 chips from Innosilicon are the product of stolen property and therefore illegal to receive and/or possess in most common law jurisdictions.

Customers have the right to purchase goods that are 100% legitimately manufactured. I would not want to buy a car that has been assembled from stolen parts.

Innosilicon is proudly announcing that BitMine AG, a leading bitcoin mining system supplier, has licensed its ultra low power Hash IP Core for production

Engineering contracted and paid for by bitmine.

---

Exacly thats the point. I have seen contracts which are giving to both parties (producer and developer) the same rights. Thats good for both, because the developer thinks, the producer will do alot of affort to go on a fast and good production level and the producer will do alot of affort, because he can sell the chips by himself. Also the developer of the chip can negotiate  lower costs. Then all of this is contracted with licenses and exclusiv licensing of territories. The most probably situation is (speculation) that innosilicon and all distributers of the chips in machines is forbidden to export the good to Europe and USA (exclusiv licenses) but not in Asia. So if you buy a Miner a keep it running in Europe/USA than it could be illigal (speculation). I guess, we will see high technology products from bitmine.ch as from Jin Tian. Both are doing excellent work. I see Bitmines, Innosilicon is very good on ASIC design, Jin Tian very much more as just competitive on PCBs. Congratulation to both parties.

When we dont see the contracts we cant know who is right, neither innosilicon nor bitminie. Certainly plausible, as what we see, is that innosilicon is in right (he thinks he is) and bitmine changed his cooperation partner, what make possible that they are angry, but maybe its because innosilicon technology level is limited. They want to work with Intel next, which is having a brand new Asics 14nm fab. Giorgiomassa, can you give us a copy of your contract with innosilicon, so we can review the point here?