Powell
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 Offline
Activity: 486
Merit: 262
rm -rf stupidity
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March 08, 2014, 06:05:32 PM |
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Dude its China its rip off designs everywhere. Look at performance parts... Cheap and stolen ideas because the parts were sent there to be manufactured but when it isn't being produced for the company all the knock offs were cheap.
Hell Top Gear did an episode and talk about how copyright laws don't exist there. Well they do but its just overlooked by most.
No matter what there will always be Chinese knock offs on anything. They do produce quality pieces for companies that send over there, but when they clone their own they half ass most of the work and it ends up sucking.
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E.exchanger
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March 08, 2014, 06:10:12 PM |
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just checked your website it is currently saying that the only machine is out of stock and please provide some detailed information about your miner on your site its nothing there and also would love to see your machine in action like a video on your website or pictures of your rigs mining !! i'll be highly interested then !
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Aexcu
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March 08, 2014, 08:57:39 PM |
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What is actually Innosilicon's current position on this matter is this, and I quote from their web :
"Innosilicon Announce its 28nm Bitcoin Mining IP core in Production
Innosilicon is proudly announcing that BitMine AG, a leading bitcoin mining system supplier, has licensed its ultra low power Hash IP Core for production at GF 28nm HPP process. This IP is designed from scratch using patent pending, customized VLSI computational Marco cells developed to squeeze the best possible power efficiency in 28nm. Its ultra high power efficiency and thermal reliability allows BitMine AG to pack just the right amount of innovative hash horse power inside a A1 CoinCraft ASIC. The availability of this 28nm hardened IP core instantly raised the bar in a crowded 28nm bitcoin mining ASIC field."
This quite clearly and in very good English states that BitMine AG has actually licensed the product from Innosilicon. This means Innosilicon owns the rights to sell their product (A1) to anyone and whoever they please. Case closed. |
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Easy2Mine
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March 08, 2014, 08:59:03 PM |
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Does Jing Tian miner means "Today's miner" ?
I am interessted in your miners, but 8000 dollar is way too high.
For example, a november KnC was priced at $ 5,585.24 ships to The Netherlands.
They were doing average 670 GH/s, with the new firmware they a doing 700+.
For example I use 670 GH/s.
$ 5,585.24/670 GH/s=8,336179104477612 $ per GH/s delivered end november and begin december.
Your miners are 8 dollars per GH/s delivered at mid March.
You called your competitors copycats, but why are their websites registered before yours and launched before yours?
They also start to bulk ship at mid March, but at 19999 renminbi (Yuan), which is $ 3266,22 and on par or a bit cheaper than BITMAIN Antminer S1 per Dollar per GH/s.
Your product doesn't have any advantage over the other manufacturers.
I am not attacking you, but I am stuck wit questions.
Can you please answer them?
It is simple. Our first 1300 systems are being purchased by the mining facility. You can see the video on Youtube posted here. That is why we act late for sell publicly. And the website stuff. Also the price is no longer 8K, but around 5.5K now. About the 19999 RMB, that is a market trick, the true story is whatever system you bought from them, they will mine freely for first 10 days before ship to you. But even that, they barely make even at that price level (even considering cheap components). But why they do that? 1. They want to kill all competitors off. 2. If they can do that, they will be the only A1 system maker in China so they can go back to push the chip prices down. But so far, they didn't sell too much, and chip makers are not back down. So every interesting ahead... You claimed that your competitors use cheap components and that it is a marketing trick to sell at 19999 yuan with losses, even if they use the miners to mine for 10 days before they sending it out they will not break even. The only purpose is to kill competitors and become the only A1 system maker in China, which I find strange, because all your competitors lowers the prices.
So they are killing each others, so that 1 company will left to be profitable. This story is really hard to believe. Even using inexpensive components, the production costs and other costs will not exceed 19999 yuan. 5 Antminers use more parts than 1 miners from your competitors, and BITMAIN don't really use cheap parts. Beside that, BITMAIN has to pay 5 times shipping fees to ship out 1 Terahash of 5 OC 200 GH/s Antminers and still be able to make profit. BITMAIN can still lower their prices further and still be profitable. To be honest, I believe you disagree with your competitors to lower their prices to stay competitive and still be profitable. You want to sell your product at a PREMIUM. I think this will not work anymore, you have way too many competition now. The BFL, AVALON and Hashlast era is long gone. People won't be easy to be fooled for a second or third time. |
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nexus99
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Activity: 910
Merit: 1000
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March 08, 2014, 09:15:03 PM |
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That's good news about the 28 nm chips. In the next 3 months we should see the fall of the antminer and the rise of the cheap 28 nm miners. By end of the year everything will be 28 nm or smaller and most miners will have 2+ th running.
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Burninj
Legendary
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Activity: 1148
Merit: 1000
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March 09, 2014, 12:05:08 AM |
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Does Jing Tian miner means "Today's miner" ?
I am interessted in your miners, but 8000 dollar is way too high.
For example, a november KnC was priced at $ 5,585.24 ships to The Netherlands.
They were doing average 670 GH/s, with the new firmware they a doing 700+.
For example I use 670 GH/s.
$ 5,585.24/670 GH/s=8,336179104477612 $ per GH/s delivered end november and begin december.
Your miners are 8 dollars per GH/s delivered at mid March.
You called your competitors copycats, but why are their websites registered before yours and launched before yours?
They also start to bulk ship at mid March, but at 19999 renminbi (Yuan), which is $ 3266,22 and on par or a bit cheaper than BITMAIN Antminer S1 per Dollar per GH/s.
Your product doesn't have any advantage over the other manufacturers.
I am not attacking you, but I am stuck wit questions.
Can you please answer them?
It is simple. Our first 1300 systems are being purchased by the mining facility. You can see the video on Youtube posted here. That is why we act late for sell publicly. And the website stuff. Also the price is no longer 8K, but around 5.5K now. About the 19999 RMB, that is a market trick, the true story is whatever system you bought from them, they will mine freely for first 10 days before ship to you. But even that, they barely make even at that price level (even considering cheap components). But why they do that? 1. They want to kill all competitors off. 2. If they can do that, they will be the only A1 system maker in China so they can go back to push the chip prices down. But so far, they didn't sell too much, and chip makers are not back down. So every interesting ahead... You claimed that your competitors use cheap components and that it is a marketing trick to sell at 19999 yuan with losses, even if they use the miners to mine for 10 days before they sending it out they will not break even. The only purpose is to kill competitors and become the only A1 system maker in China, which I find strange, because all your competitors lowers the prices.
So they are killing each others, so that 1 company will left to be profitable. This story is really hard to believe. Even using inexpensive components, the production costs and other costs will not exceed 19999 yuan. 5 Antminers use more parts than 1 miners from your competitors, and BITMAIN don't really use cheap parts. Beside that, BITMAIN has to pay 5 times shipping fees to ship out 1 Terahash of 5 OC 200 GH/s Antminers and still be able to make profit. BITMAIN can still lower their prices further and still be profitable. To be honest, I believe you disagree with your competitors to lower their prices to stay competitive and still be profitable. You want to sell your product at a PREMIUM. I think this will not work anymore, you have way too many competition now. The BFL, AVALON and Hashlast era is long gone. People won't be easy to be fooled for a second or third time. Yup, love all those greedy asic producers compete each others, maybe miners that will roi will finally hit market once again... |
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skyfromwell
Member
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Activity: 84
Merit: 10
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March 09, 2014, 01:27:39 AM |
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Does Jing Tian miner means "Today's miner" ?
I am interessted in your miners, but 8000 dollar is way too high.
For example, a november KnC was priced at $ 5,585.24 ships to The Netherlands.
They were doing average 670 GH/s, with the new firmware they a doing 700+.
For example I use 670 GH/s.
$ 5,585.24/670 GH/s=8,336179104477612 $ per GH/s delivered end november and begin december.
Your miners are 8 dollars per GH/s delivered at mid March.
You called your competitors copycats, but why are their websites registered before yours and launched before yours?
They also start to bulk ship at mid March, but at 19999 renminbi (Yuan), which is $ 3266,22 and on par or a bit cheaper than BITMAIN Antminer S1 per Dollar per GH/s.
Your product doesn't have any advantage over the other manufacturers.
I am not attacking you, but I am stuck wit questions.
Can you please answer them?
It is simple. Our first 1300 systems are being purchased by the mining facility. You can see the video on Youtube posted here. That is why we act late for sell publicly. And the website stuff. Also the price is no longer 8K, but around 5.5K now. About the 19999 RMB, that is a market trick, the true story is whatever system you bought from them, they will mine freely for first 10 days before ship to you. But even that, they barely make even at that price level (even considering cheap components). But why they do that? 1. They want to kill all competitors off. 2. If they can do that, they will be the only A1 system maker in China so they can go back to push the chip prices down. But so far, they didn't sell too much, and chip makers are not back down. So every interesting ahead... You claimed that your competitors use cheap components and that it is a marketing trick to sell at 19999 yuan with losses, even if they use the miners to mine for 10 days before they sending it out they will not break even. The only purpose is to kill competitors and become the only A1 system maker in China, which I find strange, because all your competitors lowers the prices.
So they are killing each others, so that 1 company will left to be profitable. This story is really hard to believe. Even using inexpensive components, the production costs and other costs will not exceed 19999 yuan. 5 Antminers use more parts than 1 miners from your competitors, and BITMAIN don't really use cheap parts. Beside that, BITMAIN has to pay 5 times shipping fees to ship out 1 Terahash of 5 OC 200 GH/s Antminers and still be able to make profit. BITMAIN can still lower their prices further and still be profitable. To be honest, I believe you disagree with your competitors to lower their prices to stay competitive and still be profitable. You want to sell your product at a PREMIUM. I think this will not work anymore, you have way too many competition now. The BFL, AVALON and Hashlast era is long gone. People won't be easy to be fooled for a second or third time. You see the knock offs from different sellers, but produced by one company. And that company is well known in China by the way they are doing business. |
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Xian01
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Activity: 1652
Merit: 1067
Christian Antkow
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March 09, 2014, 01:35:21 AM |
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3000 is the sweet spot for device.
Yeah, that's what I'm thinking myself with the 20nm KNC stuff coming online in the (hopefully) not-too-distant-future. Once these 1THs miners hit near $3k USD, I'll consider ordering one. As tempting as it is to pick one up for $5k, really having trouble pulling the trigger until we hear more reports from the field. The fact that they apparently sound like jet engines is a huge negative for me; the Antminers are "just right" in terms of db output IMO. Very nice to see higher horsepower system becoming available in relatively short order. |
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skyfromwell
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Activity: 84
Merit: 10
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March 09, 2014, 01:41:40 AM |
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3000 is the sweet spot for device.
Yeah, that's what I'm thinking myself with the 20nm KNC stuff coming online in the (hopefully) not-too-distant-future. Once these 1THs miners hit near $3k USD, I'll consider ordering one. As tempting as it is to pick one up for $5k, really having trouble pulling the trigger until we hear more reports from the field. The fact that they apparently sound like jet engines is a huge negative for me; the Antminers are "just right" in terms of db output IMO. Very nice to see higher horsepower system becoming available in relatively short order. Xian01, I totally agree with you on the price. But remember the A1 chips just come up not too long ago, and as system maker, the profit margin is pretty thin. To hit your ideal price, there is the need for chip makers to drop the price at least by half. But PLEASE distinguish different systems. The one sounds like a jet engine is NOT my system. My system is very quite. https://ip.bitcointalk.org/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FKWgODgb.jpg&t=537&c=eQyZI8paYKMSVAThis is my system. |
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QuestionTime
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Activity: 42
Merit: 0
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March 09, 2014, 02:00:38 AM |
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Your miner is not from us and it is not the same as JTminer. Basically, the JTminer with smaller size is much stable and can do overclock. Please ask the suggestion from who you bought it if you want to do overclock. We are not responsible for what is not from us. Thanks. Recent summary: Advantage and difference from other miner: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=470386.msg5571215#msg5571215https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=470386.msg5580260#msg5580260https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=470386.msg5580260#msg5580260--------------------------------------------- https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=470386.msg5572959#msg5572959Bitmine and Innosilicon worked together to produce the chips, so both of them have rights to produce/resell the chips. for @QuestionTime : We reserve our right to take legal action for your libel!https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=470386.msg5579060#msg5579060I´m a little bit confused.... how many representatives for the JingTian miner is on bitcointalk?
(Seeksilence, skyfromwell and JT miner)
Yes. Those are from my company. Alright, thanks for making that official  How about the pictures from the demonstration you held, will they be uploaded soon? I will let someone put more pictures here. I need to pick up my system now. LOL. I will try to do a good over clock then report to your guys. Im looking forward to the OC guide- Do you think a EVGA 1300W g2 is enough to overclock, or should we get something higher? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817438011Bob, it is not problem of the power. It is the problem with the system you got. LOL. Don't over-clock it. The one who sell to you using cheap components in the board, so over-clock is NOT going to work there. Please stop telling me what I do or dont have. These are not knockoffs- I have been running them OC for weeks now, and they also look identical to all the other units me and my assosiates purchased. Same design, PCBs chips, etc as the legitimate ones. Oh, and and the PCBs + parts numbers match up with the ones your selling directly. JT, it seems like a Chinese manufacturer has ripped off your designs and is selling them as their own. Wait.. where have I seen that before  Libel? It sounds like you have a statement from Innosillicon contradicting bitmine's claims. Please do share. What is actually Innosilicon's current position on this matter is this, and I quote from their web : "Innosilicon Announce its 28nm Bitcoin Mining IP core in Production Innosilicon is proudly announcing that BitMine AG, a leading bitcoin mining system supplier, has licensed its ultra low power Hash IP Core for production at GF 28nm HPP process. This IP is designed from scratch using patent pending, customized VLSI computational Marco cells developed to squeeze the best possible power efficiency in 28nm. Its ultra high power efficiency and thermal reliability allows BitMine AG to pack just the right amount of innovative hash horse power inside a A1 CoinCraft ASIC. The availability of this 28nm hardened IP core instantly raised the bar in a crowded 28nm bitcoin mining ASIC field." This might mean, that : a) Bitmine.ch has patented (patent pending), their HPP proces (sublicenced from GF and forked), based on their Bitcoin Mining IP core b) Innosilicon has given permission to Bitmine.ch to use their ultra-low-power Hash IP core for 28 nm DIE for chips produced by Innosilicon for Bitmine, and probably given only to Bitmine and nobody else. c) Who did customized VLSI computational Marco cell (power train in 28 nm) - Synapse, Verisilicon, Innosilicon, Bitmine or GlobalFoundries is not known to me at this point. Also not known if this customized VLSI method is patented by someone. Even though somebody could obtain licence from Innosilicon for power layer, other layers are still not Innosilicon property, so without Bitmine's sublicence on final design, full tapeout of cloned chips is not [legally] possible. It has nothing to do with BRANDNAME - "COINCRAFT A1" as s BRAND, but with TOPOGRAPHIC DESIGN OF INTEGRATED CIRCUITS, which is SEPARATE LEVEL OF INTELECTUAL PROPERTY PROTECTION FROM BRAND(NAME) PROTECTION, patent pending according to Madrid Convention of the World Intelectual property organisation. Patents are accesible from WIPO portal, and they are many, and non of which are the property JingTian. Exactly. |
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Xian01
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Activity: 1652
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Christian Antkow
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March 09, 2014, 02:02:42 AM |
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But PLEASE distinguish different systems.
The one sounds like a jet engine is NOT my system. My system is very quite.
Fair point and thank you for the correction; I'm not fully aware of the competitive differences of the two different systems. It might be informative and helpful to possibly post a brief YouTube video recording the noise your particular product creates. |
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skyfromwell
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March 09, 2014, 02:10:57 AM |
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But PLEASE distinguish different systems.
The one sounds like a jet engine is NOT my system. My system is very quite.
Fair point and thank you for the correction; I'm not fully aware of the competitive differences of the two different systems. It might be informative and helpful to possibly post a brief YouTube video recording the noise your particular product creates. I have a system just delivered from Shanghai to my home (Berkeley area). But I am in Yuba City now, and will get home Sunday. I need to get system up and hear the noise by myself (and also do an over-clock), then I will report to you and others. Thanks for understanding. |
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QuestionTime
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Activity: 42
Merit: 0
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March 09, 2014, 02:13:53 AM |
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I think the that the typical consumer is really only going to care about:
1) When can I get it?
2) How much does it cost?
3) Will it do what I need it to?
4) Will my unit perform as well as the demo unit 5) Will my order be fulfilled before they run out of stolen chips 6) Will I get in trouble with the police by having this unit, if it makes it past customs 7) Will I need to justify to the police why my other mining hardware are legitimate and should not be seized |
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nexus99
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Activity: 910
Merit: 1000
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March 09, 2014, 02:53:26 AM |
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OMG ... I inadvertently fed the troll!
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-ck
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Activity: 4284
Merit: 1645
Ruu \o/
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March 09, 2014, 11:01:58 AM |
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Put the discussion on hold for the time being. I'm asking bitmine directly for I certainly do not want to be put in the middle of such controversy. I can easily see a number of possibilities for how it has ended in this stalemate, and it is not clear to me that there is incontrovertible evidence saying that JT produced these illegally, nor that any stealing was involved. A statement from bitmine is the only thing that can clear this up one way or another. If bitmine do not respond then I have to assume Innosilicon do indeed have the right to produce exact copies and sell these chips.
I've had official confirmation from bitmine directly that, while they do have ongoing dispute with a Chinese company, that I am free to develop for this device without fear of legal recourse provided the driver does not use the bitmine or coincraft name to reference any aspect of these devices or drivers. They have also said they will only release an official statement once the issue has been resolved. While this more or less confirms my own suspicions with respect to what's going on, I don't feel the need to speculate further on the matter and will return to concentrate purely on the software matters irrespective of what other people have to say on the issue. |
Developer/maintainer for cgminer, ckpool/ckproxy, and the -ck kernel
2% Fee Solo mining at solo.ckpool.org
-ck
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loshia
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Activity: 1610
Merit: 1000
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March 09, 2014, 11:39:36 AM |
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Put the discussion on hold for the time being. I'm asking bitmine directly for I certainly do not want to be put in the middle of such controversy. I can easily see a number of possibilities for how it has ended in this stalemate, and it is not clear to me that there is incontrovertible evidence saying that JT produced these illegally, nor that any stealing was involved. A statement from bitmine is the only thing that can clear this up one way or another. If bitmine do not respond then I have to assume Innosilicon do indeed have the right to produce exact copies and sell these chips.
I've had official confirmation from bitmine directly that, while they do have ongoing dispute with a Chinese company, that I am free to develop for this device without fear of legal recourse provided the driver does not use the bitmine or coincraft name to reference any aspect of these devices or drivers. They have also said they will only release an official statement once the issue has been resolved. While this more or less confirms my own suspicions with respect to what's going on, I don't feel the need to speculate further on the matter and will return to concentrate purely on the software matters irrespective of what other people have to say on the issue. Con, Are you going to review their miner at the end? Or you will wait until legal issues are resolved. I saw your pictures but that was all, I am interested to see your review though |
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-ck
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Activity: 4284
Merit: 1645
Ruu \o/
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March 09, 2014, 11:59:54 AM |
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Are you going to review their miner at the end? Or you will wait until legal issues are resolved. I saw your pictures but that was all, I am interested to see your review though
I'm waiting for someone here to sort out the power supply issues for me and I'll probably get it mining tomorrow, followed by a brief review. There are no legal issues affecting me, nor have I signed any agreement (In fact I refuse to be involved in any projects that require me to sign an NDA). |
Developer/maintainer for cgminer, ckpool/ckproxy, and the -ck kernel
2% Fee Solo mining at solo.ckpool.org
-ck
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loshia
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Activity: 1610
Merit: 1000
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March 09, 2014, 12:17:08 PM |
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Are you going to review their miner at the end? Or you will wait until legal issues are resolved. I saw your pictures but that was all, I am interested to see your review though
I'm waiting for someone here to sort out the power supply issues for me and I'll probably get it mining tomorrow, followed by a brief review. There are no legal issues affecting me, nor have I signed any agreement (In fact I refuse to be involved in any projects that require me to sign an NDA). super Thank you! |
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