P.S. We appreciate the work done by those who can legitimately claim bounties, but to come here whining about BS is certainly not appreciated. |
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Just stop it, you look so desperate begging for some token.
You participate not even one week.
Im bought BNT in ico and i dont care the bounty because its not even one week for me to get paid.
In logic its good for them to stop the bounty program because people will just spam/publish shit stuff just to get their share after this bounty hunter know how much this ico collected already, the % bounty will be huge.
I bought BNT in the ICO too despite the fiasco of it. All I'm asking for is fairness, it seems you do not wish for fairness but instead to insult me as a desperate whiner. The facts are very clear they have selectively chosen what terms to follow, have made unclear terms from the start and have been open to changing them when it suits them. I guess you are one of those who doesn't believe in projects needing accountability. It is not rocket science. Did you contribute for a full week? If not, then FUCK OFF. We're tired of your whiny ass! |
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Thank you. I have used the "Request Form" at the bottom of CoinMarketCap to send through a request.
The in and out numbers for the contract are transfers, the circulating supply is 1,948,938.05539709. Also my sig will track the median price on etherdelta, with lower and upper hinges. Since etherdelta is an distributed exchange, you can take any offer you want. Someone is putting outrageous high and low orders. Thank you. Hopefully they will see it. I've sent them a link to this thread. Unfortunately their request form leaves very little room for details. I encourage you and others here to also contact them. |
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CAn someone post here all the indo about this?
It does sound very interesting and would like to get more involved in to this project now but do not know how exactly to go abouts doing this.
Firstly I would like to be able to obtain some coins of it to "experiment with" so I know how to go thru the process of this smart contract thing I had seen about it yesterday.
Only way I can think of achieving this is to get a bounty from the campaigns most alt coins run on here.
Is there any available?
If so, link please.
Much grateful for the pointing me in the proper direction veritaseum community!
If only there was a website with all of this information.... |
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The only thing that's missing in the listing of Veritaseum on coinmarketcap.com is the number of circulating supply: http://coinmarketcap.com/assets/veritaseum/Without this number, the market cap cannot be calculated. According to this site, there are 2,558,654 VERI total in and out: https://ethplorer.io/address/0x8f3470a7388c05ee4e7af3d01d8c722b0ff52374#pageSize=100&tab=tab-holdersIf this number represents the actual circulating supply (in contrast to the total supply of 100,000,000 VERI), then the market cap would be ca. $ 128 million at current price levels (ca. $ 50 USD). This would catapult VERI immediately into the top 40 coins at coinmarketcap.com. Can anyone tell coinmarketcap the actual number of circulating supply of VERI so that they can correctly calculate the market cap and list it in the top40 range? This would also raise awareness of Veritaseum as the top 100 frontpage list is frequently visited by lots of people that may not have heard of Veritaseum yet. Thank you. I have used the "Request Form" at the bottom of CoinMarketCap to send through a request. P.S. Reggie, I supplied your Veritaseum email address as contact address. I trust it is in order. |
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...and buy VERI tokens.  |
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I will just start boldly. The Bancor business model is pretty close to a scam. I am sure you will not take my word for it, because this is my first post. In fact, I made this account because I find it bizarre that no one is talking about this. Let's be honest, which one of you truly tried to comprehend their mathematical proof? Not a single person who invested at least, because otherwise they would not have wasted their money. I will try to explain a little. They collected pretty close to 400k ether. Essentially what they do, is keep .8*400k ETH = 320k ETH to themselves, and call the remaining 80k reserves. They will express this 80k in a different coin, called BNT. They assign 100 BNT to 1ETH that they received. That means there is 500BNT for every 1ETH in the reserves. Essentially, if everyone would want to convert their BNT back to ETH, they would get 1/500 ETH per BNT. Wait you say, in the white paper it says that the starting price of 100BNT will equal 1 ETH! This is true, this is where the mathematics uses a trick to hide what is going on. Their pricing formula, P=R/(S*F) ensures that the first BNT sold will be sold at a 'fair' value, namely equal to the amount of ETH you spent to buy it in the first place. After the first sell, things get worse rather quickly. Let's illustrate this by a little example: Lets say that 10% of people who own BNT sell it back to ETH via the smart contract. For the initial price we get: P = 80k/(40m*.2) = 0.01. All looks fair. Then after the sell we get 40m*10%*0.01 = 40k, P = 80k-40k/((40m-4m)*0.20) = 0,00556. Ouch, the price almost dropped to half value from the 10% sell-off (this is different if there are many small transactions but I will get to that later). If people buy the same amount of BNT, this is what happens: P = 120k/(44m*0.20) = 0.01364. The increase in price is not nearly as interesting for the next person. But again, this will be lower for many small transactions. I created a plot assuming transactions are made in small batches of BNT coins. We find that the BNT value drop VERY quickly when people start selling, and does not rise nearly as fast. Essentially this just makes BNT an undesirable coin. Another weird thing about their system is that it does not consider convexity. This means that big transactions will get very different prices than many small ones. This just does not make sense, but they don't care as they simply took your money. http://imgur.com/a/f9yLyIf you are still not convinced, consider this. They literally admit to taking 80% of your money. All they give back is some mathematical trick based on 20% of the ether that you gave them. Do you really believe they just generated x5 value out of thin air? Sorry, but math does not work that way. I would recommend getting rid of your BNT asap, or you end up all the way on the left side of the graph. I am sorry that this news comes a bit late for some of you... I didn't read their methodology until last night Sad Maybe now you can start to add up why the ICO was strange in various ways. As final words, don't just believe whatever I say. Think about it for yourself. I gain nothing by convincing you of whatever I write here, I am simply sharing thoughts. We bought into BNT not ETH. If we wanted to buy into ETH, we would have simply kept our money in ETH. It is no secret that 80% of the ETH will go towards the BNT project’s development and 20% will be kept as a reserve to ensure a minimum value per BNT. This doesn’t automatically make BNT worthless or the business model a scam, because we’re buying into Bancor’s potential (good or bad). "Essentially, if everyone would want to convert their BNT back to ETH" - Why would we all want to convert our BNT back into ETH, especially at this stage? i dont need complicated formulas, i payed 1 eth that is around 350 euro for 100 bnt, so i need 1 bnt to have a worth of 3.50 to breakeven, everything above is my profit, this coin will go to 10$ faster than you can say money so im all good plus its a revulotionary project that i SUPPORT plus i make profit. some people think theyre so smart but they dont see the obvious Exactly my sentiment.  |
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Just as I thought. What you initially stated is patently false: "Well, 20% of your funds bought into it. The other 80% goes to capitalising the balance sheet of Bitcoin Suisse AG of which you receive no share, at least as far as I understand. Happy to be corrected on that if wrong." It isn't false. Money doesn't just disappear into thin air. It's "owned" at all times. If you currently own 20% of the book value of your investment, then somebody else "owns" the other 80%. It is therefore currently sitting on the balance sheet of a private corporate entity which I presume to be the ICO issuer. I'm also assuming it's manifesting as an asset, not a liability, otherwise you'd be waving share certificates at me in your response instead of empty rebuttals. I am not going to repeat myself. Folks can read and make up their own minds. |
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Now kindly provide a quote out of that source that even remotely states or convey the idea that "80% goes to capitalising the balance sheet of Bitcoin Suisse AG of which you receive no share."
Maybe you should be looking into that since you invested. It's on someone's balance sheet and it sure isn't yours  Just as I thought. What you initially stated is patently false: "Well, 20% of your funds bought into it. The other 80% goes to capitalising the balance sheet of Bitcoin Suisse AG of which you receive no share, at least as far as I understand. Happy to be corrected on that if wrong." |
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"80% goes to capitalising the balance sheet of Bitcoin Suisse AG of which you receive no share" - How did you come to this conclusion? Please explain and state your sources.
My source is here: https://bancor.network/fundraiserOnly 20% of your investment goes into the token reserve. That's what you now hold (20% of what you originally put in at opening book value). So you've effectively paid an 80% premium on your Ether for it to be turned into BNT tokens. The other 80% of what you put in (approx $120 Million) now sits on the balance sheet of the ICO issuer either explicitly (in the form of fiat balances at bank) or implicitly (in the form of crypto currency holdings). Investors no longer have any stake in this part. As I understand it, the issuer is Bitcoin Suisse AG but have not looked too much into the corporate structures behind the issue so could be wrong. Like I say, that's just my understanding of the current equity balance of the ICO. I'm happy to be corrected if wrong. Now kindly provide a quote out of that source that even remotely states or convey the idea that "80% goes to capitalising the balance sheet of Bitcoin Suisse AG of which you receive no share." |
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Yeah, I don't want to give away cliff's report findings but .... imagine Noah's Ark as the rain starts coming down (actually the canopy of water in the sky around earth at the time is released) ... The water is rising to knee deep then waist deep and the people begin to clamor and bang on the outside of the ark to get in .... That's basically what people will be doing to "get in" on Veritaseum ... that's the "pop" that was discussed above See you Veritas holders later ... on the Forbes List in about 5 years ... https://www.halfpasthuman.comI didn't buy or read the report, but it seems my prediction of "I can see VERI going to a $1000 before the end of the year" might become true. |
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I will just start boldly. The Bancor business model is pretty close to a scam. We bought into BNT not ETH....This doesn’t automatically make BNT worthless or the business model a scam, because we’re buying into Bancor’s potential (good or bad). Well, 20% of your funds bought into it. The other 80% goes to capitalising the balance sheet of Bitcoin Suisse AG of which you receive no share, at least as far as I understand. Happy to be corrected on that if wrong "80% goes to capitalising the balance sheet of Bitcoin Suisse AG of which you receive no share" - How did you come to this conclusion? Please explain and state your sources. |
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so many haters, I believed most of them missed the ICO? I agree with that, but I understand them, I would be mad if I would miss this nice ICO  I would probably be mad too, but I wouldn't come here trying to score points at any cost. Some are taking it too far. |
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so many haters, I believed most of them missed the ICO? It must be the case. Either that or the wall is too high. lol P.S. Even if BNT goes to zero, you've got to love the entertainment value here. |
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I will just start boldly. The Bancor business model is pretty close to a scam. I am sure you will not take my word for it, because this is my first post. In fact, I made this account because I find it bizarre that no one is talking about this. Let's be honest, which one of you truly tried to comprehend their mathematical proof? Not a single person who invested at least, because otherwise they would not have wasted their money. I will try to explain a little. They collected pretty close to 400k ether. Essentially what they do, is keep .8*400k ETH = 320k ETH to themselves, and call the remaining 80k reserves. They will express this 80k in a different coin, called BNT. They assign 100 BNT to 1ETH that they received. That means there is 500BNT for every 1ETH in the reserves. Essentially, if everyone would want to convert their BNT back to ETH, they would get 1/500 ETH per BNT. Wait you say, in the white paper it says that the starting price of 100BNT will equal 1 ETH! This is true, this is where the mathematics uses a trick to hide what is going on. Their pricing formula, P=R/(S*F) ensures that the first BNT sold will be sold at a 'fair' value, namely equal to the amount of ETH you spent to buy it in the first place. After the first sell, things get worse rather quickly. Let's illustrate this by a little example: Lets say that 10% of people who own BNT sell it back to ETH via the smart contract. For the initial price we get: P = 80k/(40m*.2) = 0.01. All looks fair. Then after the sell we get 40m*10%*0.01 = 40k, P = 80k-40k/((40m-4m)*0.20) = 0,00556. Ouch, the price almost dropped to half value from the 10% sell-off (this is different if there are many small transactions but I will get to that later). If people buy the same amount of BNT, this is what happens: P = 120k/(44m*0.20) = 0.01364. The increase in price is not nearly as interesting for the next person. But again, this will be lower for many small transactions. I created a plot assuming transactions are made in small batches of BNT coins. We find that the BNT value drop VERY quickly when people start selling, and does not rise nearly as fast. Essentially this just makes BNT an undesirable coin. Another weird thing about their system is that it does not consider convexity. This means that big transactions will get very different prices than many small ones. This just does not make sense, but they don't care as they simply took your money. http://imgur.com/a/f9yLyIf you are still not convinced, consider this. They literally admit to taking 80% of your money. All they give back is some mathematical trick based on 20% of the ether that you gave them. Do you really believe they just generated x5 value out of thin air? Sorry, but math does not work that way. I would recommend getting rid of your BNT asap, or you end up all the way on the left side of the graph. I am sorry that this news comes a bit late for some of you... I didn't read their methodology until last night Sad Maybe now you can start to add up why the ICO was strange in various ways. As final words, don't just believe whatever I say. Think about it for yourself. I gain nothing by convincing you of whatever I write here, I am simply sharing thoughts. We bought into BNT not ETH. If we wanted to buy into ETH, we would have simply kept our money in ETH. It is no secret that 80% of the ETH will go towards the BNT project’s development and 20% will be kept as a reserve to ensure a minimum value per BNT. This doesn’t automatically make BNT worthless or the business model a scam, because we’re buying into Bancor’s potential (good or bad). "Essentially, if everyone would want to convert their BNT back to ETH" - Why would we all want to convert our BNT back into ETH, especially at this stage? |
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so meaning the reason why im not able to see my balance in mew yesterday beacause of too much investment entering in bancor.  Did you add BNT as a custom token? If you did and didn't see any balance (assuming there is supposed to be a balance), it is because the node(s) you used at MEW to access the ETH network were down or out of action at the time. no I didnt add it because my tx got cancelled. at first I couldnt get a response on the MEW node so changed the node to etherscan.io at the 1 hour marker that went through but disappeared then showed up about 10 minutes later as pending by about the 2 hour marker it just cancelled the tx and the eth was returned to my MEW, now the tx says it doesnt exist though my MEW says it was a failed tx to the Bancorcrowdsale and the reason given in tx is "cancelled" In other words, beyond the gas spent, you're still sitting with most of your ETH. |
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By the way, have fun trolling. I can't understand why people are doing this without getting paid See you at the exchanges  |
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Ughhh i dont know why that guy try so hard here. This is bancor thread of course ppl in here believe in bancor.
I written there 'even if the transaction not get clogged'
What the team done after the clogged transaction happen, they extend the time limit to 3 hour( that not wrong at all for me becaus the cap not even reach yet at this time) and then they need to find a way to send stop order through the clogged transaction whic fail btw. So?
Any investor that dont like with that can liquidate after this.
They have decided to allocate any proceeds collected in the minimum hour which exceed the hidden cap as follows:
20% will be allocated to the BNT Ether Reserve, to further improve the liquidity of BNT, which increases stability while reducing conversion costs (price slippage) for all.
80% will be locked for two years in a smart contract that will buy back BNT for 0.01 ETH (the initial price) whenever it is available, according to its calculated price. The purchased BNT will be added to the Foundation’s long-term budget, and after a 2-year period, any remaining ETH will be allocated pro-rata according to the “Use of Proceeds” chart in our Token Creation Terms.
Thats a 120k eth buy back wall at ico price.
Idk why this guy so bitter bout this.
Proud with his reddit peers, but in the fud thread about bancor there all making stupid accusation, didnot even read whitepaper and grasp concept., just listen to hearsay. Lol
The team react according to situation. He salty this ico can get huge amount. Lol
That might not be wrong for you, but it is for pre-ico investors and investors < 1hour. Rules are rules. A buddy of a friend of mine has invested close to a million USD and he's not happy with this ico launch and we are not alone. If you broaden your horizon and google, you see a lot of people don't like such ico launch at all, especially extending the time and those are prominent players in the crypto scene. If you don't know why this buyback contract is bad, I can't help you. It's financially not in your interest vs liquidity, nor in risk assessment. One of the first thing you learn in college and business school... Yeah, exactly just what you've said you prove my point... you just follow what others say... One day, you'll pay the bill and they don't. Maybe that's the day you decide to live your life on your own terms I only read till the part that you say they should stop at 1 hour. Coz at this point you clearly dont read properly. Why waste my time reading the fud. They have no reasons to stop in 1 hour even if there no attack and no clogged transaction because the cap not even reach yet at that time. Duration: The fundraiser will run for 14 days or until the hidden cap is reached, with a 1 hour minimum time. https://blog.bancor.network/bancor-network-token-bnt-contribution-token-creation-terms-48cc85a63812You're proven me correct that most of you are a bunch of idiotic sheeple without intelligence. Reading is hard, huh? And no arguments given, again, no surprise. The fact that you say it yourself that "Coz at this point you clearly dont read properly" means you don't understand anything what you read, which may be a sign of a mental attention disorder. Quote: "Clause 14: Initial creation period is either one hour or until the hidden cap has been reached. It must be at least one hour, but when the hidden cap has not been reached, it will be longer. Clause 15: Here it clearly states the minimal initial creation period is 1 hour long. Not more. Not less.Clause 16: "After the Minimal Initial Creation Period, the Initial Creation Period automatically ends once the Hidden Cap as implemented in the SCS has been reached." So, the "Minimal Initial Creation" period is one hour long. After that time is up, we're into the Initial Creation Period, which terminates once the hidden cap has been reached. The hidden cap was 250k ETH. 250k ETH was reached at 2 hours, which is after the "Minimal Creation Period" that is very clearly stated to be 1 hour long. Because the hidden cap was reached after the "Minimal Creation Period", the hard cap ends the ICO." Clearly, you talk non-sense, because it went longer than 2 hours up to 3 hours. Again, where are your arguments? They're clearly in violation of their own T&C, yet you keep defending with ZERO arguments, pathetic!Just as DigitalNinja is shilling and acting like a clown, by spouting bullshit and opinions, which his posts show only activity in this thread @ https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=1008945;sa=showPosts;start=60
Contract law (crying laughing face) you do know that a contract has to be signed in wet ink by all parties to stand in law? I sure didnt sign any contract hahaha. I stopped reading there because i know that
See this intelligence of @ DigitalNinja. Contracts don't have to be signed in "wet ink by all parties". You must be blind that one of the other terms was that you're not a US citizen/resident and by contributing, you have given consensus to this case, which is enough to be used in court against you. You clearly don't understand law at all. For example: Clicking on the terms and agreements at Paypal account creation, you're already binded by the terms in court. I'm getting tired of stupid people like you. Ok and how exactly does a court prove it was you the (human being) that clicked those terms? If you study common law you will soon realise you are very wrong. This account has a low post count my other does not. edit - Cryptodude is 1 salty as fk troll. ive seen so many of these types eat their words its unreal. have fun cryptodude while it lasts meanwhile the rest of us will carry on supporting this project. go and pick the toys up you have thrown out of your pram child. Clearly, you talk from out of your ass, once again. That's why this forum needs moderation like Reddit and Steem, to keep stupid people in their place. They just clutter meaningful discussions on purpose. You talk as if you know law, which clearly you don't. The plaintiff need to provide evidence, not the other way around. That's why bank accounts require your personal information to link and that's why governments, eu and un don't want privacy in the blockchain, because they cannot identify who the transaction holder is. Your question is rhetoric and I don't know if it's legit or just plain stupid. In either way, that doesn't bring legitimacy to your claim that others don't know the law, when in fact you don't know jackshit about contracts, but act like you do with plain lies. It ceases to amaze me that people that are so wrong never admit they're and keeping going without any shame or guilt. Again, refering to a possible solution how to mitigate that in my first paragraph, possibly with a permanent rating system coupled to passports and passed history in work and education for in the next blockchain solution, that would be nice. I only read till the part that you say they should stop at 1 hour. Coz at this point you clearly dont read properly. Why waste my time reading the fud. They have no reasons to stop in 1 hour even if there no attack and no clogged transaction because the cap not even reach yet at that time. Duration: The fundraiser will run for 14 days or until the hidden cap is reached, with a 1 hour minimum time. https://blog.bancor.network/bancor-network-token-bnt-contribution-token-creation-terms-48cc85a63812You're proven me correct that most of you are a bunch of idiotic sheeple without intelligence. Reading is hard, huh? And no arguments given, again, no surprise. The fact that you say it yourself that "Coz at this point you clearly dont read properly" means you don't understand anything what you read, which may be a sign of a mental attention disorder. Quote: "Clause 14: Initial creation period is either one hour or until the hidden cap has been reached. It must be at least one hour, but when the hidden cap has not been reached, it will be longer. Clause 15: Here it clearly states the minimal initial creation period is 1 hour long. Not more. Not less.Clause 16: "After the Minimal Initial Creation Period, the Initial Creation Period automatically ends once the Hidden Cap as implemented in the SCS has been reached." So, the "Minimal Initial Creation" period is one hour long. After that time is up, we're into the Initial Creation Period, which terminates once the hidden cap has been reached. The hidden cap was 250k ETH. 250k ETH was reached at 2 hours, which is after the "Minimal Creation Period" that is very clearly stated to be 1 hour long. Because the hidden cap was reached after the "Minimal Creation Period", the hard cap ends the ICO." Clearly, you talk non-sense, because it went longer than 2 hours up to 3 hours. Again, where are your arguments? They're clearly in violation of their own T&C, yet you keep defending with ZERO arguments, pathetic!Just as DigitalNinja is shilling and acting like a clown, by spouting bullshit and opinions, which his posts show only activity in this thread @ https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=1008945;sa=showPosts;start=60
Contract law (crying laughing face) you do know that a contract has to be signed in wet ink by all parties to stand in law? I sure didnt sign any contract hahaha. I stopped reading there because i know that
See this intelligence of @ DigitalNinja. Contracts don't have to be signed in "wet ink by all parties". You must be blind that one of the other terms was that you're not a US citizen/resident and by contributing, you have given consensus to this case, which is enough to be used in court against you. You clearly don't understand law at all. For example: Clicking on the terms and agreements at Paypal account creation, you're already binded by the terms in court. I'm getting tired of stupid people like you. "most of you are a bunch of idiotic sheeple without intelligence" - Thanks for the compliment! You falsely quote: “Clause 14: Initial creation period is either one hour or until the hidden cap has been reached. It must be at least one hour, but when the hidden cap has not been reached, it will be longer.” This while the BNT Creation and Bprotocol Foundation Contribution Terms and Explanatory Note ( https://bancor.network/static/BNT_Creation_and_Bprotocol_Foundation_Contribution_Terms.pdf) clear state: “Initial Creation Period: The Initial Creation Period starts on June 12, 2017, at 14:00 GMT and lasts for a maximal duration of 14 days (“Duration of Initial Creation Period”) or until a hidden cap implemented in the SCS (“Hidden Cap”) has been reached, whichever is earlier. In any event, the Initial Creation Period will last for a minimum of 1 (one) hour” In other words: The minimum duration is 1 hour and the maximum 14 days. You falsely quote: “Clause 15: Here it clearly states the minimal initial creation period is 1 hour long. Not more. Not less.” It is clearly stated in the Terms and Explanatory note: “Minimal Initial Creation Period: Independent of the Hidden Cap, the Initial Creation Period will in any event last for 1 (one) hour” In other words: The initial creation period must at a minimum be 1 hour long. Common sense dictates, according to what’s stated, that they were well within their rights to go over 1 hour. Furthermore, you state: “Clause 16: "After the Minimal Initial Creation Period, the Initial Creation Period automatically ends once the Hidden Cap as implemented in the SCS has been reached." “Hidden Cap: After the Minimal Initial Creation Period, the Initial Creation Period automatically ends once the Hidden Cap as implemented in the SCS has been reached. The amount of the Hidden Cap will be communicated once contributions amounting to 80% of the Hidden Cap have been recorded in the SCS. In case Contributions during the Minimal Initial Creation Period exceed the Hidden Cap, 20% of the exceeding Contributions will be allocated to the ETH Reserve Balance. The remaining 80% of the exceeding Contributions will be locked for two years in a smart contract serving the purpose of stabilizing the BProtocol ecosystem by purchasing BNT (at the price of 0.01 ETH). After the two-year lock-up period, remaining ETH will be allocated to the Foundation to be used in accordance to para 33” So nice you spend time entertain this kind of ppl He did not even understand what the 2 year contract do. I've already explained how this shitty 2 year contract reduces roi, carries high risk or even a loss. You stupid people just don't read, because "I'm too lazy" and "my opionion is fact". You are not investors, but little fish wannabe investors. So what are you trying to prove? It clearly is in my advantage, because these changes in words of terms are effectively the same as in the unedited version. Good riddance. Can you understand what the meaning is of my critique? Or do you need a teacher to explain what you read, because you are not able to on your own? Difference between idiots and successful intelligent people: The former read, the latter understand. In real life, this manifests in employees vs entrepreneurs and venture capitalists. That's a golden nugget for you, you know who you're. Please defend yourself how both these terms does not violate their own terms. Cap is reached, yet going for another 1 hour. That's right, nobody defends this. Bunch of pathetic clowns. Trying to steer attention away from the main issue. Why nobody of you 4 clowns are talking about this. You don't even have an opinion? Why you have an opinion of everything else? Fools these mortals be. This is just critique and people (again, this shows enough who these 3-4 people are) think I'm attacking the project or bancor, which I'm not at all. I support this project and team, it's interesting and could hedge against volatility.  |
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I don't think trusty people trust them anymore.
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