You want the forum mods to be the police, and that has been discussed countless times before and they've made it clear they have no intention of becoming that. I've offered a solution within their framework. You want to resuscitate those discussions yet again? Fine, but I'm not arguing that one out with you.
The mods already move threads around based on topic. Adding subforums and changing the topics that can be discussed in them would not be asking the mods to do anything they are not doing already. For instance: Conversations involving speculation about future products doesn't really belong with modding/overclocking/debugging existing ones. That is a clear topical boundary that could be easily enforced by mods using their existing activities. |
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Somehow even THIS thread has turned to the same shit. Do something about it now.
Maybe the problem isn't the threads. Had you considered that? When people ask about bitcoin, I send them to this thread first: List of Major Bitcoin Heists, Thefts, Hacks, Scams, and LossesThat way, they get a feeling for just how often people get ripped off around here. It could be that enough people are finally tired of watching the revolving door of scams and thefts. Absent any intervention by the mods, the response from these people is fragmented and ad hoc. There really needs to be a higher bar to post content on the custom hardware forum. Perhaps there needs to be custom hardware in existence before you can discuss it here, otherwise it is just speculation about mining. A separate DIY forum would be useful as well, so that community projects can do their thing in relatively calm waters. Hiving off group buys worked well for that forum. We don't need to solve everything with some sweeping overhaul. A simple rule change about eligibility of threads for this forum combined with re-education of the ignore button would be a good start. If it is insufficient, the mods can continue to tinker. |
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<SIGH> RoI = Return on investment. If you invest $100 and get $1 in return, that $1 IS a return on investment, albeit a very POOR return. You use the term to indicate a 100% RoI without specifying that. Maybe you need to modify HOW you refer to things... FULL RoI, 100%+ RoI, etc. Buying a CPU/GPU/FPGA/ASIC and mining with it = RoI. Whether you PROFIT or not is another matter.
No. You're confused. Because you're an idiot. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_on_investmentFor a single-period review divide the return (net profit) by the resources that were committed (investment):[2]
return on investment (%) = (Net profit / Investment) × 100
or
return on investment = gain from investment/ cost of investment[1]
Let's do the math, since it seems like you're not capable of it yourself. If you spend $100, and you earn back $1 Then your net profit is $-99. $-99/$100 * 100% = -99% Seriously, how fucking stupid are you? This is a commonly used, mathematically defined, investment term with a specific meaning. Yes, every miner has an ROI. But in some cases, those ROIs are NEGATIVE. and yet it is STILL RoI. Returns refer to profit. Returns on investment refers to the profit on that investment. Postive ROI means there was some profit on that investment and that is what people mean by generating ROI. A negative number quanitifies the absence of returns, how far away from profit were you. Just like on a balance sheet, a negative number designates the absence of money. |
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<SIGH> RoI = Return on investment. If you invest $100 and get $1 in return, that $1 IS a return on investment, albeit a very POOR return. You use the term to indicate a 100% RoI without specifying that. Maybe you need to modify HOW you refer to things... FULL RoI, 100%+ RoI, etc. Buying a CPU/GPU/FPGA/ASIC and mining with it = RoI. Whether you PROFIT or not is another matter.
Here is the formula for ROI: ROI = (gain from investment - cost of investment) / (cost of investment) http://www.investopedia.com/terms/r/returnoninvestment.aspROI is a measure of profit, not revenue. " In the above formula "gains from investment", refers to the proceeds obtained from selling the investment of interest. Return on investment is a very popular metric because of its versatility and simplicity. That is, if an investment does not have a positive ROI, or if there are other opportunities with a higher ROI, then the investment should be not be undertaken." So your example would yield a -99% ROI. |
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You speak of change, and that's great. But the cost of that change is the insolvency at worst or severely deteriorating business. There is no business in this market that can operate in the altruistic manner you appear to want. BFL is not a charity or a non-profit organization, it's a for profit business. Acting against that would be nonsensicle and once people finally come to accept and understand that bitcoin is now a business and not some pie-in-the-sky dream of libertarians (much to their chagrin, I'm sure), perhaps the fervor and irrationality may die down a bit, but that day is probably a long way off.
I suspected the costs of doing business properly would drive BFL onto the rocks, at best crippling them. But just because the world isn't the way you want the world to be (I'm using the royal "you" here, not you specifically) is not an excuse for you to be an asshat on the internet. It's those people I do not care for or respect.
I think it is for precisely that reason that nobody respects you and so many believe that you are running a long-con at BFL. More posts like the previous one (with content and a point about the BFL business) and less of the "monumental assholes" & "douchbags" posts would perhaps undo some of that reasoning. |
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How can you compare the returns achievable from $1 million worth of GPUs, versus a $30k ASIC?
The are incomparable. The GPUs would have: been paid for by, shipped to, received by, unboxed by, plugged in by, and mined for you. The $30K ASIC pre-order is most likely only a piece of paper. A few have been delivered, most have not. At this point, it is uncertain that it will ever be more than that. I would rather have 1 GPU with cgminer on August 29th, 2010 than a $30K ASIC today. |
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Moderate nothing. Let the ignore button do it's job.
Make a new sub-forum for each of the major manufacturers and 1 more for any new entrants to the bitcoin mining marketspace. They can be promoted to their own new sub-forum if they make it bigger and appear not to be a scam. +1. -1 It's not the forum mods' job to legitimise one manufacturer over another by giving them their own subforum. Given the amount of frauds and outright fakes that have collected funds and vanished by announcing their wares on bitcointalk.org, it might be time for the mods to at least differentiate between vetted and unvetted products and services. Perhaps such scrutiny might avert a future Pirateat40 or two. As it stands now, as long as someone doesn't anger the community, they are free to emulate Bernie Madoff to their hearts content. |
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I think just a basic minimal amount of moderation would solve 99% of the problems.
#1) Posting anyone anywhere's contact information = ACCOUNT BAN
#2) Accusing anyone anywhere of criminal activity = ACCOUNT BAN
#3) Threatening anyone anywhere with violence = ACCOUNT BAN
#4) Multiple accounts = ACCOUNT BAN
I mean, lets be serious. These are basic forum rules pretty much anywhere. How hard can it be? If you can't abide some basic rules of civilization you can always start a blog somewhere and say whatever you like. Some people actually come here for useful information, not endless repeated diatribes of half-truths and accusations that really help no one. We get it. You are upset. But this forum was not designed for therapy, at least I don't think it was.
No. Scammers and would be scammers would eat this up like some yummy, sugary snack. Not surprised that he wouldn't want anyone accused of criminal activity. |
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Not sure if you know but there were at least 1800 new paid invoices (not just unpaid for orders) placed within 48 hours from the moment they posted the pre-order on the page.
So you are a little late.
According to whom? Could you provide a link to a list of orders made? AFAIK BFL does not publish their numbers. There is anecdotal evidence of a few people upgrading their 2013 Singes orders. Other than that, it is just inferring that order number = paid order. |
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To which the attorney might ask "so, when did you order? October? And they were offering refunds no questions asked up until May or June? And despite all their missed targets, you never once requested a refund during the first 8 months that your order was outstanding? Only started demanding one after they had given notice that they wouldn't be providing refunds any longer? None of that is relevant and no competent attorney would even allow that line of questioning to happen. No sale has occurred because BFL has not delivered. By the UCC they have no legal standing to refuse a refund on a contract they have failed to fulfill. All "sales are final" is certainly legal but it requires a sale. A "sale" consists in the passing of title from the seller to the buyer for a price (Section 2-401). http://www.law.cornell.edu/ucc/2/2-106For all orders which haven't shipped not sale has occurred. It doesn't even really matter if BFL is in breach although their numerous false statements would make it likely the court would find them so. It doesn't matter if BFL made those statements in good faith. One can act in good faith and still be in breech of a contract. Still the entire issue of a breach is moot as it relates to a refund as there is no "sale" only a "sale contract" and a sale contract can be ended by either party by termination even in the absence of a breech. BFL has had to retreat from their "all sales are final" several times already (for the reasons you mention here), yet they still tell their customers they can't have refunds. |
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Good to hear! Could you share the process you went through in more detail so that others can benefit from it? |
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To me this says you are the asshole. Why go after a company before they can provide products to the other customers that ordered? If your crusade manages to damage their operation before I and the folks who ordered around me are able to receive our hardware, that makes you the POS who kept whining until the company had to respond.
I don't think it is very fair of you to ask that others put their money into a Ponzi scheme so that you can get your money out. |
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Actually the real problem is that people turn many threads into a pointless wastes of time ... and then keep posting the same thing over and over for months ... like some mind numbingly stupid belief that no one knows or understands that a certain company is completely unable to deliver hardware on time  Only they can see this and thus they must post this same information a hundred times in each thread ... and make themselves look like some sort of psychotic stalker ... and then start posting falsehoods since they themselves have realised there's no point posting the same thing over and over again ... so why not make something up ... Bottom line, I see no real problem with posting negative stuff about companies, however, there are a small number of accounts on bitcointalk that if they were deleted, that would get rid of most of the "OMG I gotta post it again today coz no body knows what I know and I must educate all these fools who read this forum ... who didn't read it yesterday" crap these threads are full of. wow I couldn't agree more with this one This is proven by the fact that there are noobs (plenty of them) who don't know any better and pop into the forum wondering "what is going on here?!" In effect, disproving Kano's vision of reality. (Go to BFL forums for a perfect example; they tend to import alot of BitCoinTalk talking points over there...slow but steady.) I am sure affiliates of certain companies would rather the noobs be informed by the ads displayed, rather than by people who have been through mybitcoin.com, pirateat40, mooncoin, Zhou Tong, and others. Every day, somebody posts on the forums "I ordered, but I can't get a refund". This is untrue, but there is a convoluted process for obtaining one. The same questions being asked over and over can be addressed by sticky threads. Making a specific forum for vaporware product announcements (no working prototype verified by a trusted third party) would cut out 90% of the nonsense. Or just put all those threads in Mining Speculation. Also, for people who complain about content from a "small group of users" should be introduced to the IGNORE button. Press it 5 times and the forums are magically cleaned up!  |
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That's NOT their mandate. You have to inform yourself, and take responsibility for your decisions. If BFL have wronged you in some way feel free to join the people currently planning a lawsuit against BFL...
Actually preventing serious black-eyes that harm the adoption of Bitcoin is or should be part of their mandate. Actually if they DID do something it would lend them a ton of credibility with a core group that has been slow to embrace the foundation. Yeah, I'm sure a core group of rabid, psychotic, tin-foil hat wearing conspiracy nuts with personality disorders are real high on their priority list. You do realize that the "core" group you're referring to are looked at as nutjobs by everyone but themselves, right? The core group is 790 strong and growing. Should Butterfly Labs (BFL) get a Scammer tag? |
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TL;DNR
Firstly, this is the Custom Hardware Forum, I envision seeing posts about people modding hardware, or developing their own. Once something is in production, it is no longer Custom.
Secondly, Manufacturers are not Hardware. I expect to see discussions about how the hardware works, or doesn't work. etc.
if there isn't already someplace to complain about manufacturers/resellers, make one?
Thirdly, i really hate seeing the same people saying effectively the same things in multiple threads. I'd pick one to leave open, make the last post in the others a reference to the open one and then lock them.
I think your definition of "custom" differs from the moderators. They mean hardware customized to mine bitcoin, as opposed to general purpose hardware with software to mine bitcoin on. |
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He could't care less. You're not important as a consumer.
Sorry.
Yeah this is the PM I just got from him in response to my request to answer the OP. "Sorry, it's impossible to conduct any sort of business on these forums. You should contact customer service, they are the ones that could better answer your question. I really can't answer questions like that." Nice..  It sounds like he could have just put the answer in the Private Message but chose not to, or he had no clue what the answer was. Either way, if the Chief Operations Officer (BFL_Josh/Inaba) has no idea when your product will ship or why it is delayed, you should probably seek a refund. |
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Can I pre-order a copy of the paper?  |
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You guys have some kind of sick obsession with BFL and Josh himself.
Can you not tell he doesn't give two fucks about what anyone here says? You are basically getting trolled by even responding to him.
Why not just do the lawsuit instead of the endless banter?
It's like the special Olympics in here.
Nut up or shut up.
QFMFT! Josh makes mistakes. When he gets angry or has to post a lot, he makes mistakes. That is why most of his posts contain little more than insults. If they contained actual content then it might contradict something he said earlier. The stakes are a little higher now (judging from BFL_Josh/Inaba's prolonged presence in this thread) so they are trying extra hard to derail the thread and bury any actual information about the lawsuit. That is why these sorts of threads need to be in self-moderated threads so that the organizer can delete off topic posts. |
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Putting thread back on track due to BFL fanboi derailing. If you have ordered from ButterFly Labs and have not yet received your product, you are entitled to a refund whenever you request one (per FTC rules). First ask ButterFly Labs for a refund, they will probably say no but you might get lucky. If you ordered via PayPal you can file a complaint with them even if you are outside the 45 day window. Multiple customers have already gotten a refund from PayPal that was outside the 45 days. If you ordered via Bitcoin or Bank wire, you can fill out a complaint with the FTC at http://www.ftc.gov/complaint and they will advocate for you with ButterFly Labs to get your refund. You can also contact the office of the Kansas Attorney General and inform them that you have had your money taken with no product delivered for months, just more promises. You can also do a paper filing with the DA here: http://da.jocogov.org/complaint-formsThere are also several threads on how to get a refund from ButterFly Labs, here are two: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=266945.0https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=272585.0 |
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Hi Josh -
I ordered a 5GH/s Miner on the 6th of May.
When I ordered I was assured it would be delivered by July.
On August the 8th I asked for a refund and on August the 15th I was told this would not be possible.
So can you please tell me, simply, when my order will finally ship and what possible reason there could be for orders taking so long?
I am tired of reading through pages and pages of abuse and conspiracy theories - can you simply answer my question?
Thank you.
If you have ordered from ButterFly Labs and have not yet received your product, you are entitled to a refund whenever you request one (per FTC rules). First ask ButterFly Labs for a refund, they will probably say no but you might get lucky. If you ordered via PayPal you can file a complaint with them even if you are outside the 45 day window. Multiple customers have already gotten a refund from PayPal that was outside the 45 days. If you ordered via Bitcoin or Bank wire, you can fill out a complaint with the FTC at http://www.ftc.gov/complaint and they will advocate for you with ButterFly Labs to get your refund. You can also contact the office of the Kansas Attorney General and inform them that you have had your money taken with no product delivered for months, just more promises. You can also do a paper filing with the DA here: http://da.jocogov.org/complaint-formsThere are also several threads on how to get a refund from ButterFly Labs, here are two: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=266945.0https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=272585.0 |
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