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681  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Avalon stable @ 98,986Mhash/sec on: June 25, 2013, 02:18:58 AM
Have anyone tried to completely submerge Avalon into mineral oil? That works very well for desktop computers.

Fluid would be too viscous for the fanz...Wink

I wonder if there is a water block out there that would fit...
100GH/s with good cooling, might be worthwhile.  Wink
682  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Avalon stable @ 98,986Mhash/sec on: June 25, 2013, 12:02:02 AM
Wow, that really changes the bang for the buck equation.
What does that do to the temps and power draw?
683  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Recieved 50GH BFL Single Today! on: June 24, 2013, 09:09:05 PM
I can't believe Josh can even show his face around here these days... his company is such an abortion.

This thread is an abortion.

That said, it was the most entertaining abortion I've ever seen!!

No, abortions generally don't spill this much blood.

Usually in an abortion, the fetus dies and is discarded, but Josh is still flopping around in the tray.

Wow, dude, that's cold even for you. lol

I was just pointing out the flaws in the analogy.  Grin
Calling Josh an aborted fetus would be an insult to aborted fetuses in jars of formaldehyde everywhere.  Cheesy
684  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Recieved 50GH BFL Single Today! on: June 24, 2013, 07:30:07 PM
I can't believe Josh can even show his face around here these days... his company is such an abortion.

This thread is an abortion.

That said, it was the most entertaining abortion I've ever seen!!

No, abortions generally don't spill this much blood.

Usually in an abortion, the fetus dies and is discarded, but Josh is still flopping around in the tray.
685  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: How many THs delivered & deployed by KnCminer this year? on: June 24, 2013, 07:25:32 PM
I've heard very little about KNC. Are they using 28nm FPGAs, and then selling hardcopys later next year? How do we know they're 100% legit? When I first heard about them, I thought they were another BitcoinTalk-scam-of-the-week.
>make up ASIC
>promise next gen performance at lower price
>get hype (like special 'golden ticket' wait list)
>Huh
>profit!

If you thought BFL was bad, wait until you see KNC.

So far KNC has had reasonable answers to every question asked of them.
We know exactly who is involved in their engineering efforts.  https://www.kncminer.com/pages/aboutus
KNC met their first milestone early and with higher performance than the target.
They are partnered with a real ASIC design company that has a proven track record.

These are not guarantees of success, but at least we know what we are dealing with. IMO If they fail it will be due to engineering mistakes, not from scamming their customers.
686  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Should you Cancel your Jalapeno Order? - This might help to decide on: June 24, 2013, 07:29:04 AM
All the calculations I've seen about rate of return on Bitcoin mining tend to assume that $/BTC will remain stable. Is that a valid assumption?  I'd think that given the decrease in coins produced per person mining, that would effectively act as a reduced supply in economic terms, sending the dollar value of a Bitcoin upwards.

Any purchase in mining equipment is a bullish bet on the future exchange rate of BTC.
Litmus test:
One compares the amount of Bitcoin that could be bought instead at the time of the purchase to the amount of Bitcoin that the mining equipment could generate over the foreseeable future. That way, exchange rates are irrelevant. If the you can buy more BTC than the equipment will likely produce, you should not buy the equipment.

Most Jalapeno purchases fail this test (unless you got one for free).
687  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: KNC Miner - Jupiter device: which PSU are you guys planning on using? on: June 24, 2013, 05:08:21 AM
We will have a large Technical announcement coming next week. Where we will give even more accurate Power figures and GH/s.

It will be a significant announcement which I hope will make all of our customers happy. and no before you ask I wont reveal any details before that newsletter goes out Smiley
Waiting to hear, when does the newsletter go out?
Wait, when did KNC become legit? I always thought they were another start-up-scam-of-the-week.
If you spend all your time in BFL threads, you miss things.  Shocked
688  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: [ANN] First 500Gh/s BFL unit up and running! on: June 23, 2013, 09:38:46 PM
I do not understand how only sent 3 of 21. I may be wrong, but doesn't have enough chips to send the entire order. Or their chain assembly are not efficient.

Production is still ramping up on all fronts including chip packaging, board assembly and final assembly / testing.

less than 300 Jalapenos(600chips), less than 10 singles(100chips) and 3 minirigs (300chips)
Total 1000 chips

It is likely that the first order was only 1000chips. Now made ​​another batch, this request will take between 8 and 12 weeks


What makes you think that gigavps is the only one who had received the new Mini Rig devices?

BFL said they shipped one. Gigavps ordered 7.5TH/s of mini-rigs and got 1.5TH/s so far. Nobody else that I know of has said their mini-rig has arrived.
If you know of a second mini-rig delivery, please link to it.
689  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Recieved 50GH BFL Single Today! on: June 23, 2013, 09:18:39 PM
Who are BFL's investors? BFL claimed they have a Venture Capital firm backing them, but won't say from which VC firm.
What they said is "It's a secret". It is a "secret" because there is none. BFL customers are investors without the rights investors have.

Being a private company (as opposed to a publicly listed one), what requirement is there that they say who their backers are? You say there aren't any backers, but provide zero proof of that too. Saying what you wish to be the case to justify your feelings towards them?

The only requirement is to dispel uncertainty. BFL is under no legal obligation to do so.
BFL issied a press release saying they had a Venture Captial firm backing them.
No Venture Capital firm has ever come forward admitting they are backing BFL (venture firms maintain portfolio lists of the firms they back).
BFL did not name the firm.
BFL has never to my knowledge mentioned receiving funding from a Venture Capital firm since that press release.
When pressed about where their funds came from, Inaba said it was from their FPGA profits not customer pre-orders.
If BFL said they have funding from a VC firm (when they do not) and then solicited business based on that, that is fraud.

If you want to see what an actual bitcoin company funded by VC's looks like, look here: https://coinbase.com/about
You can see that Coinbase claimed that Union Square Ventures invested in them, you can verify that USV put Coinbase on their portfolio page here: http://www.usv.com/investments/
You can see that Fred Ehrsam, Olaf Carlsen-Wee, Brian Armstrong, and Craig Hammel are the founders of Coinbase. You can see what they have done in the past because they are not hiding from you. They are proud to attach their full names and reputations to their work.
690  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: People are overspeculating potential profits for bitcoin Mining on: June 23, 2013, 07:05:35 PM
Ok if that first link is truly  reflective of bitcoin mining then mining is still worth it, thanks for the reply.

Mining is worth it as long as your costs to accomplish the mining are less than the value of the amount you will mine.
691  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Should you Cancel your Jalapeno Order? - This might help to decide on: June 23, 2013, 04:22:14 PM
There's a point where the exponential growth will taper off. Because right now people are putting 60gh/s and 500gh/s units online and blowing out the competition running FPGA and GPUs at 10x slower speeds.
When the majority of these BFLs ship the majority of people who want Asics will have Asics. Yes there will be people who say I want MORE asics but that will be a slower growth than the jump from FPGA/GPU to Asics. It will be more linear as we saw with people who had GPUs and FPGAs ordering more of those... the rate will rise linearly and not exponentially.

When will that happen is the question... I suspect once production catches up to demand and you can go online and order an Asic and have it ship out within 2-3 days.

Incidently we saw the same growth from CPU to GPU mining, it grew exponentially and leveled off once the market was able to move to the newer hardware. Right now the bottleneck is GETTING the hardware so the few people who get them ahead of the rest, get to make 10x the profit revenue.

A lot of people will not make a profit on the ASICs they bought. They would have been better off getting their BTC from Mt. Gox.
692  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: [UPDATE] Butterfly Labs - June 22 2013 on: June 23, 2013, 04:18:38 PM
I don't believe for a second that their current backlog will be cleared in September. For a while, they were shipping a decent number of Jalapeno's, but even those have slowed down to a trickle in the last week or two so I cancelled all of my BFL orders.

It seems like they are having trouble keeping all the parts they need in stock to assemble and ship units.

I strongly suspect there will be much better options available from other companies by the time BFL clears their current backlog. 

Just think. BFL could have had Foxconn or Quanta assemble these things and they all would have been done in a day.  Cheesy
Oops.
693  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: Is mining worth it at this point? on: June 23, 2013, 04:09:34 PM
Right now, it is much cheaper to buy Bitcoin than to buy hardware to mine Bitcoin.
694  Bitcoin / Mining speculation / Re: Estimated long-term costs of owning and running different ASICs on: June 23, 2013, 04:06:43 PM
The image isn't loading.
If it is a spreadsheet, you could put it in google docs.
695  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Recieved 50GH BFL Single Today! on: June 23, 2013, 03:57:53 PM

As I've said before, and will say again, BFL is not operating in a scammy fashion. It would be far too unprofitable a scam to run things the way they have. They are however operating in a fashion that shows poor project and PR management. Heck, Avalon put precious little out in public information releases, including actual delivery dates, yet there are plenty of people who praise them yet rubbish BFL, which puts out plenty of information. The key difference is the information being put out is not what you want to see. You get angry because the news is bad, and blame like no tomorrow about it.


The information I want to see:
Who works at BFL? Most startups & companies tell you who is running it so you can check for yourself if they have the skill to succeed. With BFL we just get first names.
Who are BFL's investors? BFL claimed they have a Venture Capital firm backing them, but won't say from which VC firm. Highly unusual.
Who are BFL's suppliers? Companies usually (in tech especially) make their large suppliers & partnerships known.  BFL has not said who did the chip design for them or who is making their chips for them.
BFL does not discuss that sort of thing.

If you have the answers to these questions, by all means share them or point them out if they have already been shared.
Until BFL starts acting like a real company, one always has to worry "Will they be there tomorrow?"
696  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: 150k USD startup budget. Help needed! on: June 23, 2013, 03:39:58 PM
Please dont mistake this thread for ignorance on how this community works in terms of pre-orders. This isn't to say that some of the operations in play are not legit. But I will certainly not line the pockets of anyone until such time they have a proven working model in hand. This is just for a startup mining operation. If it is successful I will be ramping up to a much larger scale. I need to validate the project first before going forward. Waiting for sept/oct may prove to be a far better idea. But will 150k still yield any profits with the difficulty at that time?

If no profits can be had after September due to difficulty, you are better off not starting the operation until that changes.
697  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Recieved 50GH BFL Single Today! on: June 22, 2013, 06:20:07 PM
Don't you think it's at least a little odd that both BitInstant and Gox stopped dollar exchange at the same time. I wonder if anyone has checked BitPay to see what they are doing for their customers today?

Yes I think it is odd.
However, I do not automatically assume that Gox = bad because the Department of Homeland Security doesn't like them.
Could Gox be shady? It is possible.
But they are a japanese company that so far complies with all japanese regulations and laws.
Time will tell, unless the US indictments are sealed and the proceedings take place in a secret FISA court.  Cheesy

Well this answers my question about what BitPay is doing: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=240706.0

That sounds sensible. One flash crash from Gox would torque their exchange rates.
698  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: KNCMiner and their 'magic' SHA256 alogorithm on: June 22, 2013, 06:12:03 PM
I mean, no chip testing methodology - just solder them to a board and see if they work?
Please prove that OrSoc & KNCMiner have no chip testing methodology. Links to posts where they say they are "employing no chip testing" would be sufficient.
Please provide citations for your statements in the future.

Since I've made several posts pointing this out, I'll help out here ...

Q&A


ChipGeek


3) Are you doing pre-package wafer test?

Marcus: No.

4) Are you doing post-packaging testing on a real production tester (Teradyne or similar)?

Marcus: No. We...and...and...I..I..I need to say a little bit about why; ah because we will have a self built in test that will automaically test...the...because the chips are so large, so that we can compensate for any losses in the Bitcoin engines. If there are any failing ones then we can compensate for that.

Me: Physically large?

Marcus: The...the die size of the...the?

Me: Yeah

Marcus: The die size will be...very large.

Me: But does that...ummm...

Marcus: That, that means that some of the parts in the ASIC might work and some will not, but we can compensate for that.

Another member: We can compensate for that.

Me: So does that mean you yield less per wafer?

Marcus: So yeah, you will always have a yield problem, and when you increase the die size, the yield problem becomes larger of course.

Me: ok

Possibly my post here was the origin of the "just solder chips on board" claim https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=231739.msg2468261#msg2468261

And ChipGeek (who seems pretty knowledgeable on chip design) made the following observation https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=232852.msg2474760#msg2474760

I don't want to get too trollsome on this point, just pointing out the source of the rumour.


Excellent. I wanted the source of the material, not brontosaurus' warped view of it. Thank you for providing it.   Wink

It sounds like KNC are not doing binning. They are confident that the yields will result in a low number of completely dead chips.
If they were making products with 1 or 2 chips on them, one completely dead chip would prevent that unit from being shipped as product.
Since there are a large number of chips per device, it is unlikely that 1 dead chip would make the device undeliverable.
Even 2-3 completely dead chips would still result in a partially functional product, it might not meet spec but it could sit in the corner at KNC and mine, it could serve as a test bed for firmware, etc.

Obviously, chip binning would increase the quality of the product but by how much we don't know. Perhaps spending time and money to get a 5% increase in quality is not worthwhile if they are beating their specs by 30%.
Time will tell.

Chip binning can be done post hoc, to screen out dead chips of there is an unforeseen yield problem.
699  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: BFL Little Single on: June 22, 2013, 05:25:58 PM
"I'm surrounded by assholes"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3YElLVMjEs



Great movie.
700  Bitcoin / Hardware / Re: Recieved 50GH BFL Single Today! on: June 22, 2013, 05:23:29 PM
Don't you think it's at least a little odd that both BitInstant and Gox stopped dollar exchange at the same time. I wonder if anyone has checked BitPay to see what they are doing for their customers today?

Yes I think it is odd.
However, I do not automatically assume that Gox = bad because the Department of Homeland Security doesn't like them.
Could Gox be shady? It is possible.
But they are a japanese company that so far complies with all japanese regulations and laws.
Time will tell, unless the US indictments are sealed and the proceedings take place in a secret FISA court.  Cheesy
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