People who don't have preorders with BFL should not be QQ on these forums.
Exactly what i've been saying on other bfl related threads. If you don't have business with them STFU. If you do have an order, feel free to whine. Everything has already been said in regards to sony, delays, waht josh ate for breakfast, etc. Stop rehashing it on every thread, everyone knows and has made thier decision to stay or get refunds. If the BFL sockpuppets would stop posting misinformation, I think most people would stop responding. However, I can understand you begging people to stop giving BFL bad press. 2 days ago, there was not a single thread on the front page of Custom Hardware about BFL. As it should be IMHO. But customers keep complaining about not having the product they ordered 11 months ago... At this point BFL has such a tiny piece of the overall hashing rate and is showing few signs of being able to catch up to ASICMiner & Avalon. BFL's customers have paid such enormous opportunity costs already, I just don't see BFL being relevant to Bitcoin hashing for much longer. If KNCMiner delivers, that would be the nail in the coffin. P.S. Miners who are looking out for their wallet should encourage BFL investors to not refund. Refunded capital would go to Avalon or ASICMiner and result in more actual hashing power deployed sooner than BFL can deliver. |
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I find it disgustingly hypocritical that in a community of libertarian anarcho-capitalists some of you want to run to government agencies and ask them to attack a company that will make mining more competitive.
If you are encouraging government involvement, and you don't even have an order in with BFL, you are scum, and a disgrace to this community.
I am not a libertarian anarcho-capitalist. I am math geek, computer science geek, and security nerd. I know quite a few Bitcoiners like me. I don't believe your characterization of the Bitcoin community to be correct. But your broad point of libertarians running to the government as soon as shit lands on their doorstep is correct. |
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Clearly, Dogie is biased against BFL.
BFL has started delivering which is very evident, all the major costs have now been covered.
The biggest costs has always been with the ASICs the initial design and prefab (masking and what not), once these are done the individual chip cost is extremely low.
Somehow i bet their per chip cost is in the 5$ ballpark now.
That would be Avalon's chip cost because: it is a much simpler chip it using a much larger fab process they did their own mask and design they order 100,000+ of chips BFL's chip cost is much more because: they use a small process (45nm according to some sources) they have a larger and more complex chip they are ordering in hundreds of units which means a multi-project wafer multi-project wafers mean $30-$60 per chip depending on die size Add rest of the HW -> casing, pcb, caps, regs, resistors etc etc. bought in bulk you have something like this cost breakdown:
case 5$
fan 1$
pcb 2$
connectors 5$
on board components: 10$
Total: 23$
fan + heatsink alone will run them $10, $15 if it is copper, not $1 you forgot the power brick cord which is at least $5 and packaging which is another $5 so your COGs is $50, not $23 Assembly + testing: 20$ per unit.
43$ + chips = 53$ per jalapeno unit. So realisticially 50 to 100$ to mfg single unit.
Using the actual values for COGs we get: $50 for non-BFL ASIC chip components $60-$120 for ASIC chips in a Jalapeno (2 chips) Assembly + testing $20 (total WAG since it depends on salaries, rent, and time spent per unit) So realistically, total COGs is $130 to $190 per unit which means they are probably hemorrhaging money on early pre-orders. This is why BFL is so touchy about bad press and hostile forum posts. They need more pre-orders because they have burned through 11 months of salaries and rent (at $400K a month for 20 people, that adds up). That is why they jacked the price up on their Jalapeno's by $100 as soon as they had a working prototype, to re-establish their margins. |
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THEY ARE NOT INVESTORS! THEY ARE CUSTOMERS. Why is this such a difficult concept for people?
Customers require a product. BFL did not have them (and is still trying to develop all but one). The people who put money into BFL were investors just like a kickstarter project. Their money was used to design and prototype the products. The investors didn't get equity, they only got promises. |
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...
I'm very sure they've collected over a million dollars in the past few days. I'd venture to say that they are more than "Barely" Functioning.
...
Agreed. I'd estimate that they've received several million dollars: - over 1000 orders - assume at least 500 are paid Even with just single Saturn orders, this comes out to $1.9m. With Jupiter or multiple orders, it could be 2-5x that much. They've got plenty of incentive to not screw up and risk cancellations (or at least CC disputes). B.F.L. A few good things about KNCMiner: KNCMiner seems to have a way better relationship with the community than BFL has. They are partnered with an actual ASIC design firm with real talent. They developed a prototype (based on FPGAs) without taking customer money. They are developing the ASIC chip(s) in parallel (according to KNC) without taking customer money. I am skeptical, but I am also hopeful and optimistic. |
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If they're serious they should dump the cash into a trust controlled by people outside BFL. Or they should make sure to give a few BIG chunks of that cash out immediately to worthwhile causes like zerocoin. Charity in my mind was like cancer treatment or hospitals or something...
+1 This. They should use an escrow to prove they have 1000 BTC to donate and have that escrow donate it on behalf of them publicly so there is no funny business. John could do it. Likely BFL doesn't want to do this because it involves an honest 3rd party to keep things transparent. Oh. No escrow? Not real. Not news. All BFL news must contain escrow. |
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I am amazed they built enough units to mine 1000 coins. I always figured they would be donating to the Homes for Hooks and Beer or some such.
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I got BFL's inform mail that my order was shipped. But I cannot find any tracking information on USPS's website.
There was another case of an email inadvertently sent to SgtSpike notifying him that his order had shipped. BFL later informed him the email was in error. This was discussed about a dozen posts earlier in this thread. It may be that more than one erroneous email went out. What a shit! I will keep tracking the status. But my status is a little different that I asked BFL to correct my contact phone# before. And 1 day before I received the inform mail, I got mail from BFL Jody said my phone# is corrected and my order is ready to ship. Do you think in this case they still made mistake? Hard to say. Check the USPS again tomorrow and if they still don't have it, try contacting BFL. |
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I got BFL's inform mail that my order was shipped. But I cannot find any tracking information on USPS's website.
There was another case of an email inadvertently sent to SgtSpike notifying him that his order had shipped. BFL later informed him the email was in error. This was discussed about a dozen posts earlier in this thread. It may be that more than one erroneous email went out. |
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Agreed, that post was ridiculous and ignored or glossed over BFL's role in this this whole business association breakdown while casting the investor in the worst possible light.
First off, I'm not glossing over BFL's role. They're late with a product, it's frustrating, emotions are high, yadda, yadda, yadda, we all get it. There are 1000 people beating that dead horse, I don't need to beat it further. But the OP wants to have his cake and eat it too. He decided to go out and trash the company, they decided they didn't want to do business with him anymore if he was going to treat them that way, and refunded his money. He can't admit any wrongdoing here. He thinks he had full license to go around trashing them. His "Apologies" always consist of more back-handed name calling and threats (that's not an apology). The OP has gone and manipulated his posting history to gloss over his role in baiting them into canceling his order. Think what you will of BFL, and their mishandling of orders/launch/PR, etc. But that's not what this thread is about. This thread is about the OP showing his ass, and getting it spanked, and then going around and manipulating things to make himself appear to be a victim more than an instigator. And for the love of god, quit calling him an "investor" he's not an investor, he's a customer (ex-customer now). There's a WORLD of difference, even if you might not know the difference yourself. Getting a bit tired of the whole thing myself. But a "pre-order" that stretches over a year's time should be viewed as an inadverdent investment. I disagree. It should be viewed as a pre-order that inadvertently didn't ship when anticipated. You don't get the option of a refund on investments if they go bad. If there were no refund available, you might be able to argue that it had become an inadvertent "investment" in the company, and I'd be right there screaming "bullshit" with everybody else if that was the case. But it's not the case. The case is simple. People have pre-ordered a product. It's been MASSIVELY delayed, more than once. Yet, everybody still has the option to request a refund if they decide the wait is too long. Ergo, it's not an "investment" in BFL. BFL sold a product to be delivered in the future. Xian upheld his part of the contract by paying the agreed upon funds. That product has increased in value and is difficult for BFL to deliver. That is the risk BFL took. BFL had no obligation to do further business with Xian. They do however still owe Xian the goods they contracted to deliver to him when they took his money. If they can't or won't deliver the goods, they owe him comparable goods or the market value of what they failed to deliver. They cannot just back out of a contract because they don't want to pay up. All contract law depends on this. You can read a lawyer's analysis of it here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=217036.msg2290818#msg2290818I am sure we will hear about Xian's case as it grinds through the courts. |
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It was real but: No, SgtSpike wasn't suppose to get an email for that shipment, it went out accidentally. (Josh in the Shoutbox) So no shipment. Nope, you can hang on to your smug smile for a while longer... BFL already put a ton of cash into my pocket by siphoning off millions of dollars that would have been spent on raising the network hash rate. I get to keep my smug little smile forever.  Now that the Avalon and ASICMiner waves are here, it does't really matter what BFL promises anymore. Even if BFL ships 50 Jala's every single day (unlikely), that is only 1.25TH a week which isn't enough to move the difficulty needle anymore now that there is 100TH currently and another 100TH due in the next 2 months. BFL failed to capitalize while Avalon and ASICMiner continue to deliver the hash rate. You sound just like PuertoLibre - are you it? You still have nothing eh? Do your best to keep these last couple of BFL threads on the front page so people who Google Butterfly Labs can see what the bitcoin community thinks of them. Un-ignored out of curiosity, and indeed, ignored was better. Bitcoin community? Do you call the rant-o-rama club including yourself, Smoothie, Puertolibre and Frizz23 and his pile of accounts the bitcoin community? The anti bfl-squad posts are even attracting customers to BFL, you must be doing something wrong. You should put me back on ignore. You BFL folks do much better while ignoring the rest of the world and patting each other on the backs. I call the Bitcoin community those which seem to have embraced ASICMiner and Avalon chip offerings. They organize group buys of chips together and design PCBs to accommodate them. BFL however has lost all traction, their latest attempt at squeezing out more revenue was soundly ridiculed here. Even John K was loathe to act as an escrow for the terms BFL was offering. I know I know, it is all a great conspiracy by the mods of bitcointalk and the Illuminati, so put us back on ignore and enjoy your echo chamber. |
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I think this strikes a nerve...
I used 'struck a nerve' first - thanks You forgot to change accounts before you posted that. |
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You still have nothing eh?
What exactly do you have? To be so defensive of this guy who shouts his mouth off and tells people to FO when he doesn't like what they say? I have thousands of angry BFL customers. I have BFL who admits they purposefully insult and denigrate the Bitcoin community because they believe it inflates their pre-orders with noobs. I have alternatives to BFL mining products that have similar or better bang for the buck. What else do I need? Popcorn. BTW, you should bump the other two BFL threads that fell off the front page too. Otherwise it might look like BFL has become irrelevant to the Bitcoin mining scene. The Custom Hardware forum is awash in a sea of ASICMiner and Avalon threads... |
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<snip> desperation and walls of text </snip>
You should format that wall of text nicely and highlight all the really juicy parts so potential customers of BFL will get a feeling for how angry they will be 7 months from now when they still don't have the product they ordered.  |
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It was real but: No, SgtSpike wasn't suppose to get an email for that shipment, it went out accidentally. (Josh in the Shoutbox) So no shipment. Nope, you can hang on to your smug smile for a while longer... BFL already put a ton of cash into my pocket by siphoning off millions of dollars that would have been spent on raising the network hash rate. I get to keep my smug little smile forever. Now that the Avalon and ASICMiner waves are here, it does't really matter what BFL promises anymore. Even if BFL ships 50 Jala's every single day (unlikely), that is only 1.25TH a week which isn't enough to move the difficulty needle anymore now that there is 100TH currently and another 100TH due in the next 2 months. BFL failed to capitalize while Avalon and ASICMiner continue to deliver the hash rate. You sound just like PuertoLibre - are you it? You still have nothing eh? Do your best to keep these last couple of BFL threads on the front page so people who Google Butterfly Labs can see what the bitcoin community thinks of them. You certainly have your work cut out for you with all the Avalon and ASICMiner group buy threads churning like crazy. |
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how much did it cost for council to read this thread alone?
Not relevant to the case. oscar pistorius will say this too I bet... Xian: Look how desperate the sockpuppets are to derail your case. Over one thousand replies in this thread. Brand new accounts with hundreds of posts only in this thread. You really struck a nerve. Keep us posted on how things progress. |
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Xian, look back what you wrote, what did you expect....
<snip> tons of stuff </snip>
Xian expected BFL to honor their contract. This is what taking the money and not delivering opens BFL up to. Lawsuits. Even if Xian slandered them, they still could not breach their contract with him. BFL could sue him for slander. It does not give them the right to break the contract unless that was part of the termination clauses, which it was not. Maybe BFL should add a "don't say mean things about us on the internet" clause to their sales contract. |
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Never at any point have you discontinued your constant stream of diarrhea of the mouth.
Oh the irony. Wrenchmonkey complaining about diarrhea of the mouth. BFL clearly pays by the shill. Hey k9 - how's your hash rate doing since all thes bfl jala's have been coming online? I didn't really notice the ~250GH/s coming online over the course of 2 months from BFL. I did however notice the ~40,000GH/s from ASICMiner and Avalon over the last 2 months. |
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Never at any point have you discontinued your constant stream of diarrhea of the mouth.
Oh the irony. Wrenchmonkey complaining about diarrhea of the mouth. BFL clearly pays by the shill. |
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