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1881  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Solving Selfish/Colluding Mining on: September 04, 2018, 08:48:26 PM
@HeReTiK you have good points, but it still doesn't show that these attacks are not possible, and what if suddenly we find ourselves operating at 50% the hashrate of peak hashrate of the year, what do we do? Wouldn't that be suspicious that not all miners are making use of their resources and there is some spare mining power ready to deploy an attack at any time. If your hypothesis is right that miners are always mining close to peak, then we wouldn't have to worry about the effects of such a protocol change because it would only take effect if hashpower is significantly less than peak. So I think it's worth an analysis.

Anyone willing to waste their resources on mounting a 51% attack on Bitcoin will do so regardless of whether we try to tweak the incentive structure in one way or another. Assuming such an adversary exists, selfish mining or covertly aggregating (unused) reserve hashing power would be the least of our worries.

It is also worth noting that covertly aggregating (unused) reserve hashing power would not even be the most effective strategy in this case. Given Moore's Law an adversary able to attain enough hashing power to successfully mount a 51% attack would want to do so as soon as possible, lest their hardware becomes obsolete before they even scratched the blockchain.

Either way it all breaks down to: If someone is able to gain Bitcoin's majority hashrate and is willing to attack it, Bitcoin's fucked. But that's neither something new, nor something that can be easily fixed with currency issuance tweaks.


My feeling is that without such a rule the pressures miners to stay at peak hashrate, they will get a bit lazy, use less of their energy on Bitcoin, and provide an opening for selfish mining or (33%) or 51% attacks. And it can take just one such attack to damage the reputation of bitcoin, and that would be a snowball effect that lowers the hashrate more (because of lower price) and makes more such attacks possible. Better to close those holes in my view, but I can post it to the list to see what others think.

Obviously one possible outcome is the one you describe -- miners try to keep the hashrate at current levels or above.

Another imaginable outcome however would be a negative feedback loop, with miners either leaving Bitcoin for a competing blockchain or being taken offline as profitability plummets.

With the current system, as soon as Bitcoin becomes less profitable to mine, miners drop off and difficulty is reduced, with the hashrate finding a new equilibrium. If the mining reward is reduced with a drop in difficulty, Bitcoin becomes even less profitable to mine, with more and more miners leaving as block reward is further and further dynamically reduced, creating the very pool of "spare" hashing power that the difficulty-dependent-block-reward is trying to avert.

From what we've seen so far, miners already have the implicit incentive to keep adding hashrate. Adding complexity to a system that works just as good, if not better, with simpler rules, rarely works out well. Especially if it depends on miners working together for the common good (ie. "let's keep the hashrate growing or else the block reward gets reduced") rather than doing what is most profitable for them.
1882  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: [ADVICE] What type of Market is the best? on: September 04, 2018, 05:39:58 PM
Unless you live in a country with an extraordinarily bad local currency I'd stay out of the forex market.
Could you say that our local currency is bad because it usually has a much higher level of imports compared to the numbers of exports in a country? Also, the monetary value of our currency fluctuates that causes fewer items may be bought at a given time. This is a very alarming situation in our country, and as time goes by the inflation rate of goods and services are now increasing.


1) Stocks appreciate because the underlying company does well and earns money by selling goods and services.

2) Cryptos appreciate because they stand to disrupt and potentially supersede private and governmental infrastructures.

3) Foreign currencies appreciate because your local government fucked up their monetary policy worse than the corresponding foreign government.


(1) is putting money to work, (2) is hoping for growth of a currently small market and (3) is assuming your government fucks up.

To some extend however (1) (when trading a foreign company) and (2) also work assuming your government fucks up so the reasons for resorting to (3) are rather limited.

(That is, without knowing your individual circumstances and which country you reside in. If you're within the US or the Eurozone, dabbling in Forex is needlessly risky for what little there is to gain. If you're from Venezuela or Turkey things are less clear cut.)

1883  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Solving Selfish/Colluding Mining on: September 04, 2018, 05:29:48 PM
Another possibility all miners (like 95%) agreeing to mine at a lower hashrate since that way they get the same reward per block at a lower energy cost. Isn't this the classical game theory strategy where the best long term solution is to work together to make things easier?

Cooperation is only a viable strategy if no one defects.

Looking at PoW, anyone who agrees to not increase their hashrate further will get fucked over by those that are either (a) not part of the agreement or (b) part of the agreement but decide to increase their hashrate covertly.

PoW, pretty much by design, does not reward cooperation. It rewards putting as much hashpower as possible on the network, especially as economics of scale kicks in. It rewards securing the blockchain instead of attacking it, by means of opportunity cost.

The optimal strategy gets a bit wonky in systems with increased block reward variance (eg. post-block-subsidy Bitcoin), but that's a different discussion altogether.


It can also be non-voluntary and due to pressure such as governments increasing the cost of electricity, as is happening in Washington State right now. If all governments double electricity costs, wouldn't that in principle cause the potential hashrate to halve, and then suddenly the centralized governments use their extra capacity to carry out a quick 51% attack?

Global markets don't work that way though. Price fixing barely works under totalitarian communism on a national scale, let alone within a capitalistic free market on an international scale.

Governments are barely able to figure out trade agreements. Fiat currencies fluctuate in relation to one another. Many -- if not most -- power plants are privately owned.

Even if 99% of governments would manage to arbitrarily increase electricity cost, the remaining 1% of governments would simply get rich by all the mining operations moving there.


With lower rewards for less than peak hashrate, there is incentive to keep pushing for the peak hashrate to make sure there is no "spare" hashrate just waiting to be deployed for a 51% attack.

Peak hashrate is being pushed as is, because keeping "spare" hashrate is simply wasted capital that could be put to work instead.
1884  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Changing the supply parameters on: September 04, 2018, 10:36:38 AM
Code:
static const CAmount MAX_MONEY = 21000000 * COIN;

I heard that Bitcoin is limited to 64 bits internally, which limits the number of supply. 21000000 is a lot more when stored in satoshi. Is there a technical limit in the number of supply if I clone Bitcoin core and for example change chainparams.cpp to deliver 10x time more coin than the original bitcoin?

That's the technical limit for the maximum amount of the smallest unit you could reliably transfer:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/9,223,372,036,854,775,807

Beyond this number you'll get an overflow. Bitcoin having a max final supply of roughly 2,100,000,000,000,000 Satoshis leaves some wiggle room for increasing the coin supply on clones (alternatively one could also increase the perceived coin supply by reducing the number of digits).
1885  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Solving Selfish/Colluding Mining on: September 03, 2018, 11:57:01 AM
[...]

How big? Probably at least 50% of hashrate, which is why it was never observed in practice and possibly never will. BTW selfish mining can be easily detected by the increased number of orphaned blocks.

With 50% of the hashrate you're not Selfish Mining anymore; you're effectively able to take over the network since you now can outrun the other miners indefinitely.

Selfish Mining only requires you to outrun your competitors, say, 2-3 blocks at a time. For that you don't need quite as much hashing power. By itself it's not really much of a threat though (apart from causing low-confirmation-count transactions to be unreliable); it's when used as part of a larger plot to either bankrupt your competitors or force them to collusion that Selfish Mining becomes dangerous.
1886  Other / Beginners & Help / Re: [ADVICE] What type of Market is the best? on: September 03, 2018, 10:06:26 AM
Unless you live in a country with an extraordinarily bad local currency I'd stay out of the forex market. There's little to be gained outside of daytrading with leverage, which is also an excellent way to lose money unless you're lucky and know what you're doing. The crypto market is obviously a very interesting one (otherwise we wouldn't be on this forum), however I wouldn't underestimate the stock market as a hedge against crypto market downturns (and vice versa, although this still needs to prove itself).

In short, I'd stay away from forex and find a mix of stocks and cryptos that I'm comfortable with. Don't forget to do your homework though!
1887  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Changing the supply parameters on: September 03, 2018, 09:42:55 AM
Start by searching Bitcoin's repository for the term "subsidy" and go from there:

https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/search?p=1&q=subsidy&unscoped_q=subsidy


If necessary, adjust MAX_MONEY accordingly (does not change money supply, used for sanity checks only)

https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/search?q=max_money&unscoped_q=max_money
1888  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Solving Selfish/Colluding Mining on: September 03, 2018, 09:09:33 AM
As already described by ranochigo, selfish mining is about wasting other miner's resources by working on the longest chain in secret, causing competing miner's blocks to be orphaned upon broadcasting said blocks.

What would be the point of colluding to merely mine at a lower hashrate?
1889  Economy / Economics / Re: Bitcoin after several years? on: August 30, 2018, 02:34:07 PM
The longer Bitcoin survives the more trust it will gain and the wider its usage will become. The tricky question being -- what will Bitcoin's usage look like. Will it serve as a store of wealth, potentially becoming a globally used reserve currency further down the road or will it become an everyday means of payment, both as the native currency of the internet and in the physical world?

Either seems to be a possibility; whether these use cases will be compatible with one another is a different question though. I'd love to see Bitcoin as a viable store of wealth, however I'd also hate to miss out on the internet getting a native currency.
1890  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Technical Support / Re: [overview] Recover Bitcoin from any old storage format on: August 30, 2018, 11:08:58 AM
Encoding the whole private key + checksum in Base58 is not the same as encoding both separately and then concatenating the result.


For example let's use the (hashed) private key from the Bitcoin wiki [1] and encode it in Base58 [2]:

Private key + checksum in hex:
Code:
800c28fca386c7a227600b2fe50b7cae11ec86d3bf1fbe471be89827e19d72aa1d507a5b8d

Private key + checksum in Base58:
Code:
5HueCGU8rMjxEXxiPuD5BDku4MkFqeZyd4dZ1jvhTVqvbTLvyTJ


Private key without checksum in hex:
Code:
800c28fca386c7a227600b2fe50b7cae11ec86d3bf1fbe471be89827e19d72aa1d

Private key without checksum in Base58:
Code:
f3D1ajXzk1biCdNP195jhLiN1jbZzpUigRkeJUqt2tTvC


Checksum only in hex:
Code:
507a5b8d

Checksum only in Base58:
Code:
34K7GG


You see the difference?


In hex 2 characters equal 1 byte (e.g. 0xFF = 0b11111111, i.e. 8 bits). In Base58 2 characters equal something like 1.375 byte (e.g. ZZ = 0x0760 = 0b11101100000, ie. 11 bits but then again not really). Hence when trying to remove the checksum by truncating the string of a Base58 encoded private key you lose a few more (or less) bits than intended.


[1] https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Wallet_import_format
[2] https://incoherency.co.uk/base58/
1891  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: A new consensus that promises high levels of security (PoH) on: August 29, 2018, 02:32:38 PM
Any distributed p2p, digital currency which relies on trust to make it work is nothing more than a horrible mistake a best, and at worst it's a scam.

As soon as you make that trust sacrifice, you might as well throw it all in the bin and use VISA, which has none of the drawbacks associated with crypto, and is already accepted everywhere.

If you think it is better to use VISA it feels like you see more drawbacks in crypto rather than benefits. Maybe you don't want mass crypto adoption and use it for your everyday payments.

I think monsterer2 is pointing out the absurdity of centralized cryptocurrencies rather than claiming that decentralized cryptocurrencies are non-viable.


I'm not saying that people are not fond of federated trust. I'm just saying it's a regressive and naive approach at cryptocurrencies.

I can see many cryptocurrencies that try to be more decentralized as being centralized in the beginning so this may be a direction that it is perceived in a later stage of a centralized strategy.

There's no hint of a later decentralized stage though. Even if such a stage would be advertised, its feasability would be rather questionable seeing how centralization lies at the very heart of this project. Centralized token issuance, centralized consensus... heck, even the name "Proof of Honesty" is trademarked apparently.
1892  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: A new consensus that promises high levels of security (PoH) on: August 29, 2018, 08:33:34 AM
My opinion is that an authority on the blockchain should be present in order to avoid fraudelent and malicious actions. See what's it going on right now on the Ethereum blockchain and ERC20 tokens which is full of scams.

Alt coin and token scams are what makes it all the more important to call out questionable buzzwords such as Proof of Honesty. Dressing up federated trust as a trademarked term called "Proof of Honesty" is borderline deceptive. Selling a centralized solution as "100% Byzantine Fault Tolerant" is like selling asbestos free milk -- it's good to know but the least that I would expect.


And also, if people are not so much in fond of federated trust, how is it possible that Ripple has so much support by users making it 3rd regarding Market Cap?

I'm not saying that people are not fond of federated trust. I'm just saying it's a regressive and naive approach at cryptocurrencies.


It can work to make things better, this is the reason why none works in the shadows. And I believe that there is a great exchanges of ideas in this thread that can lead to a positive outcome.

So we do agree after all that even in the conceptional phase valid criticism is productive Smiley


Reading the whitepaper, I can understand the point of Honest and Dishonest game theory and it seems very exciting. Many corners are still shady because we don't have the code and check it.

Many corners are still shady because the whitepaper claims to solve various problems without proposing concrete solutions. The implementation is irrelevant if the very concept is flawed.


Personally, I am fed up with the other projects that try to refine their chains that many times leading to forks and community confusion that lowers the value of the tokens.

If GeeqCorp can give an end to that I will definitely support them from the start till the end of the development.

The problem of hard forks is effectively ignored on the protocol level.

If one or more forks exist, the user is able to inspect them and then decide which one he wishes to use for his transactions. The CDM places the responsibility of choosing between forks in the hands of users who hold tokens on the chain and who would therefore be harmed if false transactions were written into “verified” blocks.


Authority exists in every blockchain. Do you think there is not high volumes of authority in Bitcoin, when Satoshi holds a huge amount of BTC and mining pools the majority of the hashing power? They get the rewards of the transactions so the value is accumulated on them and coins are spread among few users.

Owning large amounts of currency does not equate authority. Large amount of hashing power do not equate authority.

Anyone can participate in the network. No one can block or censor transactions. Block subsidy is not something that gets handed out by a central authority but is what pays for electricity, hardware and infrastructure, keeping the network's security autonomous without external oversight.

Falling back on a centralized authority just because PoW based cryptocurrencies have mining pools is throwing the baby out with the bath water.
1893  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: A new consensus that promises high levels of security (PoH) on: August 28, 2018, 07:58:36 PM
The mentioned consensus seems to be very interesting especially when it comes to who users have the authority in the validation process.

Federated trust as decribed by GeeqCorp is precisely how humanity has done monetary transactions for centuries. Merely throwing in a blockchain for good measure doesn't change anything. Getting rid of federated trust is what made Bitcoin so revolutionary. Returning to it seems rather regressive.


[...] but I think we should not criticize the project as it is still in the beginning of developing and we haven't seen proof of Honesty in practice.

That's how public discourse works though. Otherwise they should have just worked in the shadows and presented the world with a finished product.
1894  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Superspace: Scaling Bitcoin Beyond SegWit on: August 28, 2018, 06:08:00 PM
Interesting whitepaper!

I wonder though, are you (a) pessimistic on how long LN will take until it reaches more widespread adoption or are you (b) optimistic regarding how quickly one could implement and deploy Superspace?

Seeing how LN already hit mainnet earlier this year and how long it took for SegWit to reach maturity starting from its conceptional phase I believe that either must be the case; at least considering that we are looking at "a short-term proposal, intended to provide a temporary ease from scalability issues". Or would you see Superblocks as part of a long-term scaling approach, with temporary ease being a mere side-effect?
1895  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: A new consensus that promises high levels of security (PoH) on: August 28, 2018, 03:52:37 PM
Facing the problem of hard forks by simply ignoring it is... brave, I guess?

I would not agree to this point. I can see it as a democratic option and people can decide where to put their money depending on their fork preferences.

There's a difference between hard forks as a democratic option (see blocksize debate) and chain splits as a regular occurance. A blockchain that hard forks regularly without internal consistency becomes unreliable as users end up on different forks and transactions get "lost" due to users following different chains.




Centralized it is, then.

It may defined as Centralized, but it will guarantee that blockchain is running smooth and with the same features as any other in the ecosystem.


GBBs are unfortunately never explained, neither in their whitepaper, nor on their website.

I'm going out on a limb here, but I assume it's something you'd have to purchase from GeeqCorp? If so, that means: First you buy a genesis block, then you buy consensus access? Is that what it would look like if EA created a cryptocurrency?

I want to see more on GBBs as well. I don't think that you have to purchase something but maybe you have to gain access to that somehow and It could be limited to a specific number of users.

Why use a blockchain then? If the network is centralized and permissioned one might as well just the classical banking system and the likes of VISA and PayPal. Same difference.
1896  Bitcoin / Legal / Re: Determinations of KYC and AML on: August 28, 2018, 03:41:41 PM
Thanks for the information everyone. Why do some ICOs restrict the US and certain territories?

Because in some territories ICOs are either illegal or legal grey areas.

For example as soon as founders allow US citizens to take part in an ICO, without actively seeking out the SEC's approval or abiding its regulation, the SEC will have a close eye on them; legal problems being almost assured regardless of the founder's country of origin or operation.
Is there a document that has a list of countries  and regulations required?

There's a short overview of the regulatory status of ICOs in various jurisdictions on Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Initial_coin_offering

However it's rather incomplete and doesn't do the complexity of the issue justice. International law is no joke. It gets bad when finance is involved and even worse when looking at unprecedented asset classes such as cryptocurrencies and ICO tokens.


It looks like I will reach out to a crypto lawyer.

If you plan on starting on ICO, professional legal support will be indispensable. Whether it's worth the money when merely investing depends on the size of your investment though, I guess.
1897  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: rent power hashing / how???? on: August 28, 2018, 03:24:12 PM
HOW
ARE YOU MEAN THAT ALL PEOPLE RENT IN NICE HASH LOSE THEIR MONEY?

Yes.

Well, sometimes people make money in USD / EUR terms due to rising crypto prices, however simply buying and holding said crypto would have usually yielded higher profits.

For the most part you're likely to get less money out than you initially invested. Problem being that even mining contracts that may look profitable at first will suffer from quickly diminishing returns as network difficulty increases.
1898  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: A new consensus that promises high levels of security (PoH) on: August 28, 2018, 01:44:41 PM
I was navigating through different projects and a new consensus called "Proof of Honesty" (PoH).

[...]

The idea is that users do not select the "dishonest" nodes as they let only the "honest" validators to validate the transactions, resulting to nearly 100% BFT.

[...]

Sounds pretty much like Ripple's and ByteBall's consensus algorithm, which suffer from either centralization, vulnerability to Sybil attacks or both.



Let's look at their whitepaper.

Genesis blocks are created by GeeqCorp at the request of other companies who wish to build applications.

Centralized it is, then.

If one or more forks exist, the user is able to inspect them and then decide which one he wishes to use for his transactions. The CDM places the responsibility of choosing between forks in the hands of users who hold tokens on the chain and who would therefore be harmed if false transactions were written into “verified” blocks.

Facing the problem of hard forks by simply ignoring it is... brave, I guess?


If a user or node detects any dishonesty, he can send an audit request to the network. If dishonesty is verified, misbehaving nodes are ejected from the validation network and Good Behavior Bonds (GBBs), previously posted in order to join the network, are forfeited and used to pay rewards to the agents who called for the audit.

GBBs are unfortunately never explained, neither in their whitepaper, nor on their website.

I'm going out on a limb here, but I assume it's something you'd have to purchase from GeeqCorp? If so, that means: First you buy a genesis block, then you buy consensus access? Is that what it would look like if EA created a cryptocurrency?
1899  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: rent power hashing / how???? on: August 28, 2018, 12:33:55 PM
I have a very important query
I want you to explain it to me
How People Win From Renting hashing power???

They don't.


When I did a study on this subject on the NiceHash site
I found I would pay more than I get through mining
Thus I will lose and will not win

Exactly.


So how do people win from this site?Huh
They rent the power of the hashing and gain from them Huh?
how?Huh

They don't.


What you are referring to is commonly known as cloud mining. The only ones profiting from cloud mining are the companies providing the hashrate. The only way to profitably mine is by physically setting up a mining operation yourself, with hardware you own, infrastructure you can use and cheap electricity.
1900  Bitcoin / Legal / Re: Determinations of KYC and AML on: August 28, 2018, 12:04:35 PM
Thanks for the information everyone. Why do some ICOs restrict the US and certain territories?

Because in some territories ICOs are either illegal or legal grey areas.

For example as soon as founders allow US citizens to take part in an ICO, without actively seeking out the SEC's approval or abiding its regulation, the SEC will have a close eye on them; legal problems being almost assured regardless of the founder's country of origin or operation.
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