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201  Economy / Gambling / Re: Poll: Pick your favorite bitcoin Dice game on: September 22, 2013, 11:14:33 PM
Thanks for including ggdice there. It's suprising that it has more than my own vote considering the current tiny bankroll.
No problem - I think a lot of people don't even know it exists.  Besides a small bankroll fine - trust me, being a Just-Dice investor, having whales stop by not for the faint of heart.
202  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Service Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: Just-Dice.com : Invest in 1% House Edge Dice Game on: September 22, 2013, 10:58:56 PM
Has a stop-loss feature been discussed before? Surely I'm not the only investor who has doubts about being exposed to this kind of variance, especially just after big losses. Why not have a user-settable investment threshold, and if a user's investment falls below that level they'd be auto-divested?

mechs placed a 7 BTC bounty on anyone who makes a script that does this.

Link? Sounds like easy money to me.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=263522.0

"easy money"
I actually have one written with python.  Wish I had been using it.
203  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Service Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: Just-Dice.com : Invest in 1% House Edge Dice Game on: September 22, 2013, 10:55:14 PM
Quote
But why do many investors try to lower the risk by changing the rules instead of just lowering their invested amount?

Lowering the invested amount reduces risk and reward at the same time.  It doesn't change the risk/reward ratio.

Changing the max bet policy might reduce the risk a lot, while lowering the reward a little.  In other words, it might make the risk/reward ratio more favorable.


That is how I see it
204  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Service Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: Just-Dice.com : Invest in 1% House Edge Dice Game on: September 22, 2013, 04:36:16 PM
@usagi

That being said my rates are exceedingly cheap.

what is cheap? as I want to open an online casino I would be interested in Your opinion. I know what is wrong with JD. lets say I think I know and as I want to be sure I really would be interested in Your opinion. so how much  Huh

cheers
I think the answer is to simply put in a hard cap for the max profit.  So it can be 1% of the bankroll up until X.  X can be 50 BTC or 100 BTC or whatever.  This would decrease variance significantly. At the same time, Just-Dice would still have the highest max profit of any site.  I mean, when put nearest competitors have a max profit of 20BTC and we were over 550 BTC, something is maybe wrong.
Then simply multi-accounting would bypass the limit.
I think the issues is the cap is so high that martingales are highly probably to work for those with extremely large bankrolls.  A more sane limit would decrease the effectiveness of that strategy.  We just need to be a better deal than the competition (which as I said has a max profit of 20 BTC per bet).  Having a straight 1% max profit is extreme.  

I would also be interested in determining if the results we have seen are statisically probable but I do not have the statistics background to do so confidently.  I do not think Dooglus is cheating or the server is compromised (meaning is playing under alt names are giving out server seed).  In that case, if the results turn out to be statistically improbable, is there any explanation as to why beyond a compromised server seed?

The results we've seen aren't statistically probable - in that they aren't a likely outcome.  But what valid math I've seen indicates that they aren't so unlikely as to suggest a problem.  If something has a 1 in 10 or 1 in 20 chance of happening then is there a problem if it happens?  Is it (your phrase) "statistically probable"?

If there is a problem then, ignoring server compromise/dooglus cheating, then the obvious issue would be if the RNG had a (even small) flaw in it.  For example if the odds of a high number after 2 low rolls was different than the odds of a high number after 2 high rolls.  Any flaw such as that could potentially make an otherwise normal (i.e. losing) strategy into a winning one (one with a positive expectation) - either through blind luck or as the result of careful analysis.
That should be easy to check since Dooglus has a datafile with all  bets ever rolled.
205  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Service Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: Just-Dice.com : Invest in 1% House Edge Dice Game on: September 22, 2013, 04:27:57 PM
I think all the fancy math and assumptions unneeded.  Variance is extreme due to a very small # of very large bets.  The answer is to lessen the max bet size while still staying significantly bigger than competition so as not to lose players.  Nearest competition is 20BTC max profit.  We were as high as 550 BTC.
206  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Service Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: Just-Dice.com : Invest in 1% House Edge Dice Game on: September 22, 2013, 04:17:27 PM
The Kelly Criterion derives from a model that differs from JD's real situation in a couple of important ways.

First, in the Kelly model, the player with the edge controls the betting.  Since he has an edge, he keeps on betting.  In contrast, with JD the house has the edge but must wait passively for the whales to bet.  Since the whales don't have an edge, they can and should stop when they're ahead.

Second, the Kelly model runs on "bet time", where the unit of time is one bet.  The Kelly Criterion maximizes the return over the number of bets.  In contrast, JD runs on "calendar time".  Investors count their return in percent per day or month or year, and count their opportunity cost the same way.

Because of these differences, it does not follow that setting the maximum bet based on the Kelly Criterion will maximize JD's return in calendar time.  

The maximum bet policy has been questioned before, and it's always been answered by an appeal to the Kelly Criterion, or to simulations based on the Kelly model.  I'm suggesting that the model doesn't match the reality, so it's time for a fresh look.


You are correct. But the problem is much much deeper than this. Let me begin by asking the simple question; since the KC maximizes profit over number of bets, and since variance decreases with bet size, how many max bets would we need to make in order to decrease variance to get, say, 0.9% < profit < 1.1% assuming all bets were max bets? Going with a set max bet size, say 500 BTC, guarantees we will find a sample size more than sufficient to limit profit in this way. Let's further simplify by going after the RNG and not the house edge.

So now we have simplified the problem into determining how many coin flips we need to make to show whether or not a coin is fair. Which is actually a well known problem. If we calculate this number, and determine that actually, just-dice has "flipped the coin" more times, we have then proven that just-dice is not a fair coin. It does not matter that we are not using the actual formulas for just-dice's statistics; our results are a superset of theirs. In short, if just-dice's numbers are within the sample size we require it may or may not be fair (we won't know) but if their numbers lie outside of ours we have proven that they are unfair. This proves using actual just-dice statistical formulas will merely create numbers x and y such that our figures bracket them as such; 0.9% < x < profit < y < 1.1%.

I'll even draw a picture. We will end up with a number (sample size) which will appear in one of the following places: A, B or C:
Code:
0 ...======================================================================... infinity
        (A)       JUST-DICE-STATS    (B)   OUR-SIMPLE-STATS         (C)
   

If our number shows up as A or B, we will not know which one it is (since we are calculating a simplified version of the statistics). In the case of A and B all we know is that just dice has not yet achieved the sample size we require to limit profit to 0.9% < profit < 1.1%. If, however, just dice has a sample size which falls at (C) -- which is greater than what we require -- we have guaranteed that profit should be limited to 0.9% < profit < 1.1%.

The formula for required sample size is (Z*Z)/(4*E*E), where E is the desired error (ex. 0.01 for 1%) and Z is how many standard deviations you want. 3 standard deviations gives a 99.7% level of confidence, which is less frequently broken than 1/300. A quick glance at a chart which shows how likely you are to die from various causes shows that it is far more probable that you will die by falling down (1:246) if you don't first die from committing suicide (1:121).

n = (3 * 3 ) / (4 * 0.01 * 0.01)
n = 9 / 0.0004
n = 22,500

In short, as long as we bet 500 bitcoins 22,500 times, we are guaranteed that the error will be no more than 1%. But the house edge is 1%, so this just states profit will be between 0% and 2%. (house edge +/- 1% is 0% to 2%.). That doesn't help us.

To get +/- 0.1%  or 0.9% < profit < 1.1%, we need to set E to be 0.001 not 0.01:

n = (3 * 3 ) / (4 * 0.001 * 0.001)
n = 9 / 0.000004
n = 2,250,000

There we go. How convenient. As you can see, we have just rolled over 2.4 million bets at 500 max bet. Therefore we arrive at the following connundrum:

1. 2,250,000 bets at 500 BTC is enough to guarantee variance within 0.9% < profit < 1.1%.
2. Actual sample size is a minimum of 2,400,000 because not all bets were made at max kelly bet.
3. Actual site profit is less than 0.2%.

0.2% < 0.9% < profit < 1.1%

This is a serious problem.

I am not merely suggesting something is wrong, I am proving it.

If Dooglus is interested in hiring me as a consultant I will help him fix this problem. Then again, the solution is obvious, but I think Dooglus needs someone to tell him. And no I will not advise anyone for free. You get what you pay for in life. That does not mean I am greedy it means I want Dooglus to listen to me, pay attention to what I say, and do it, or I will not waste my time. If he cannot value my advice then it has no value to him. It's that simple. That being said my rates are exceedingly cheap.

Chat soon~
You seem to be suggesting the RNG is not random and there is a pattern that can be ascertained?
207  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Service Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: Just-Dice.com : Invest in 1% House Edge Dice Game on: September 22, 2013, 04:15:08 PM
@usagi

That being said my rates are exceedingly cheap.

what is cheap? as I want to open an online casino I would be interested in Your opinion. I know what is wrong with JD. lets say I think I know and as I want to be sure I really would be interested in Your opinion. so how much  Huh

cheers
I think the answer is to simply put in a hard cap for the max profit.  So it can be 1% of the bankroll up until X.  X can be 50 BTC or 100 BTC or whatever.  This would decrease variance significantly. At the same time, Just-Dice would still have the highest max profit of any site.  I mean, when put nearest competitors have a max profit of 20BTC and we were over 550 BTC, something is maybe wrong.
Then simply multi-accounting would bypass the limit.
I think the issues is the cap is so high that martingales are highly probably to work for those with extremely large bankrolls.  A more sane limit would decrease the effectiveness of that strategy.  We just need to be a better deal than the competition (which as I said has a max profit of 20 BTC per bet).  Having a straight 1% max profit is extreme.  

I would also be interested in determining if the results we have seen are statisically probable but I do not have the statistics background to do so confidently.  I do not think Dooglus is cheating or the server is compromised (meaning is playing under alt names are giving out server seed).  In that case, if the results turn out to be statistically improbable, is there any explanation as to why beyond a compromised server seed?
208  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Service Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: Just-Dice.com : Invest in 1% House Edge Dice Game on: September 22, 2013, 04:05:02 PM
@usagi

That being said my rates are exceedingly cheap.

what is cheap? as I want to open an online casino I would be interested in Your opinion. I know what is wrong with JD. lets say I think I know and as I want to be sure I really would be interested in Your opinion. so how much  Huh

cheers
I think the answer is to simply put in a hard cap for the max profit.  So it can be 1% of the bankroll up until X.  X can be 50 BTC or 100 BTC or whatever.  This would decrease variance significantly. At the same time, Just-Dice would still have the highest max profit of any site.  I mean, when put nearest competitors have a max profit of 20BTC and we were over 550 BTC, something is probably wrong. If the OP cannot stay invested in his own site, that means something is wrong.  There is a reason other sites do not have a similar system in play.

I will take Devil's advocate - if we were up double the expected (instead of on 0.15% of expected), due to the same high variance conditions, noone would be complaining.  However, such high variance and risk of ruin is not compatible with long-term sustainability. 
209  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Service Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: Just-Dice.com : Play or Invest : 1% House Edge : Banter++ on: September 22, 2013, 04:36:16 AM
Are withdrawals being processed?
Hot wallet is empty and doog is MIA at the moment.  He needs to process all larger withdrawls or once hot wallet empty
210  Economy / Securities / Re: [Ice-Dice.com] 1% Edge | Made For Mobile | Invest or Play | Officially Launched! on: September 22, 2013, 02:56:58 AM
Another completely new member making a clone dice site with the offer to invest.

DEAL WITH THOROUGH CAUTION.

Understatement of the decade.  Why would he not at least post under his normal bitcointalk username where he may have a reputation?
211  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Service Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: Just-Dice.com : Play or Invest : 1% House Edge : Banter++ on: September 22, 2013, 02:45:55 AM
Looks like a new site ice-dice is capitalizing on the high variance at J-D and offering an alternative for investors: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=299185.msg3207478#msg3207478
However, investing coins in a site with a anonymous person with no reputation at all more than risky.
212  Economy / Securities / Re: [Ice-Dice.com] 1% Edge | Made For Mobile | Invest or Play | Officially Launched! on: September 22, 2013, 02:43:24 AM
mechs   1Mr3Gn9pYHo3W4fmEvvURyDuajQ6itaKd1   userid:39
213  Economy / Securities / Re: ASICMINER Speculation Thread on: September 22, 2013, 02:27:50 AM
People seem to be missing hardware sales. It looks like AsicMiner chose to sell instead of mine for pretty much everything they are producing. Given the prices, it looks like the most profitable thing to do. (Already mentioned a few pages before.)

I still think financials aren't hard, like once a month. Total mined, total sold, what is kept for reinvestment.

I totally agree with that. At this point is better to sell all hardware. Take all the money now and start reinvesting in gen2, also they will probably get more profit than just mining.

The question is how fast are they going to start selling/mining with gen2, because the first takes all the market.
Also, franchising makes little sense anymore.  AM is no longer in any danger of taking over a majority of the network (though Ghash.io and BTCGuild are another matter).

A sensible strategy would be to mine with all gen 2 produced until it is breakeven between mining and selling.  Then at that point sell gen 2 and work on gen 3.

Franchising was not conceived to avoid having 51%. That's not the point of it.
What the point of it then?  What does it succeed that neither mining themselves or outright selling them does not?
214  Economy / Securities / Re: ASICMINER Speculation Thread on: September 22, 2013, 02:27:07 AM
Don't discount insider trading possibilities.  You'd think gen2 would be announced by now but they may be delaying the announcement while scooping up cheaper shares.
Definitely possible and that will be what people will cry about who sold out in panic if it bounces back hard after an announcement
215  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Service Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: Just-Dice.com : Play or Invest : 1% House Edge : Banter++ on: September 22, 2013, 02:24:53 AM
My IP was just blocked for an hour - anyone know why?
I annot even login, cloudflare says server down
216  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Service Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: Just-Dice.com : Play or Invest : 1% House Edge : Banter++ on: September 22, 2013, 01:51:39 AM
I put up a poll to find everyone's favorite dice site: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=299154.0
Drop a vote.
217  Economy / Securities / Re: ASICMINER Speculation Thread on: September 22, 2013, 01:48:32 AM
People seem to be missing hardware sales. It looks like AsicMiner chose to sell instead of mine for pretty much everything they are producing. Given the prices, it looks like the most profitable thing to do. (Already mentioned a few pages before.)

I still think financials aren't hard, like once a month. Total mined, total sold, what is kept for reinvestment.

I totally agree with that. At this point is better to sell all hardware. Take all the money now and start reinvesting in gen2, also they will probably get more profit than just mining.

The question is how fast are they going to start selling/mining with gen2, because the first takes all the market.
Also, franchising makes little sense anymore.  AM is no longer in any danger of taking over a majority of the network (though Ghash.io and BTCGuild are another matter).

A sensible strategy would be to mine with all gen 2 produced until it is breakeven between mining and selling.  Then at that point sell gen 2 and work on gen 3.
218  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Service Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: Just-Dice.com : Play or Invest : 1% House Edge : Banter++ on: September 22, 2013, 01:46:21 AM
For the site? 0.17%.  About 2200BTC
219  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Service Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: Just-Dice.com : Invest in 1% House Edge Dice Game on: September 22, 2013, 01:45:33 AM
I think an even bigger issue is it is a Saturday night, the biggest normal time for players to gamble and the site has been down for hours with no word from Doog.  My guess is he is out and unaware.  This DDoS issue is quite out of control.
220  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Service Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: Just-Dice.com : Invest in 1% House Edge Dice Game on: September 22, 2013, 01:42:46 AM
The Kelly Criterion derives from a model that differs from JD's real situation in a couple of important ways.

First, in the Kelly model, the player with the edge controls the betting.  Since he has an edge, he keeps on betting.  In contrast, with JD the house has the edge but must wait passively for the whales to bet.  Since the whales don't have an edge, they can and should stop when they're ahead.

Second, the Kelly model runs on "bet time", where the unit of time is one bet.  The Kelly Criterion maximizes the return over the number of bets.  In contrast, JD runs on "calendar time".  Investors count their return in percent per day or month or year, and count their opportunity cost the same way.

Because of these differences, it does not follow that setting the maximum bet based on the Kelly Criterion will maximize JD's return in calendar time. 

The maximum bet policy has been questioned before, and it's always been answered by an appeal to the Kelly Criterion, or to simulations based on the Kelly model.  I'm suggesting that the model doesn't match the reality, so it's time for a fresh look.

The issue that there is an extemely lopsided distribution to bet sizes making the variance massive.
99% of bets under 1 BTC
0.99% if bets under 10 BTC
Only 0.01% of bets over 10 BTC, and many of those are actually over 100 BTC

I think Kelly holds when all bets are about equal sizes (or within a stanard differential are 2).  However, this is not the scenario as it plays out on J-D since there only exists 1 or 2 players who can take advantage of the max bet and for the rest a max bet of 100BTC would be enough for thr other 99.99% of players
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