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Bitcoinorama, no harsh feelings: did you receive a free unit or not?
I guess if they offered it to you they would have asked for you to not disclose the fact, so let's keep it simple for everybody: if they indeed gave you a free unit, just ignore this post. If they didn't, just reply: "no, I was never given or promised a free unit"
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Lying on the expected return is a scam in my book. As you said, those projections WON'T HAPPEN, and very likely their "investors" won't even get back the money they put in this venture. So, cloudhashing has two options:
1) run a one time, "hit-and-run" business, cashing in the huge mark-up they have on the hardware (1GH/s costs them aprox. $20 and they are selling it for $149, PLUS the commision of 10%), and screwing up the first investors that will very soon realize they are getting peanuts for their $. In this case new money will stop flowing in as soon as they start hashing and the clueless people who invested start spreading the word that they are receiving much less than they expected.
2) be very greedy and start making payments according to their fairy-tale projection using the huge mark-up they have on the machines, so people start spreading the word that this indeed is a business that gives you 500% return per year, and new investors pour in en masse.
1 or 2 it's not so different for me. From a legal point of view, probably 1) is not considered an outright scam, while 2) is a ponzi, so I agree that they will likely just go for 1). It not be a *scam* from a legal point of view, but it's a scam in my book, as they are sucking in money with blatantly false assumptions.
They can't really do 2 - as everyone can work out what they should be paying for the hashing power per contract. That's why it almost certainly isn't a ponzi - as they won't ever be paying out the 500% to anyone. Hit and run would be if they took in the money and didn't pay anything. That's also unlikely in the short-term - as they make more by paying out and continuing to sell more contracts. Don't underestimate the stupidity of people here - they'll continue reinvesting in crap that will never make a profit even after the proof it won't make a profit has been rubbed in their face by the tiny returns they've actually got. I'd bet investors on this forum have lost more BTC investing in mining companies than they've lost in all the actual scams put together (including Pirate). If you run a mining company you don't have to steal - you just skim a big margin off turnover leaving investors with a loss. Mining is only marginally profitale most of the time - it's impossible for investors to make a profit if the operator takes any sort of significant cut from turnover rather than from profit. There HAVE been a few exceptions to that - but anything that isn't already mining (or manufacturing chips) isn't one of them at this point in the cycle. It IS possible that they will make a 'profit' (in USD) for investors if BTC rises a lot. But that's deceptive and irrelevant for users of this forum (returns need to be compared to just buying and holding BTC - with 0 counter-party exposure to both cloudhashing AND their hardware suppliers). For those buying in USD it may be more relevant - but is still horrible value compared to buying and holding BTC. Well, I have to say what you wrote was incredibly accurate. You've nailed it, I pretty much agree on everything. But in any case I still think they may be able to run the business like a Ponzi - who is going to check how much hashrate are they really deploying? Are they going to be transparent as ASICminer? They say they are reinvesting 30% of the "profit" EVERY MONTH to increase the hashrate of each customer. But as you said very well, people is so stupid that will probably keep buying mining contracts even if they are unprofitable, so they will not need to do many tricks to suck in suckers. At the end of the day, Bitcoin is a growing ecosystem, with a constant influx of newbies, who will just do not understand that mining is only marginally profitable, and that they would just be much better by buying and holding BTC instead of throwing away money investing in mining companies. |
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As for 200 bucks for 10gh no one sells that anywhere but I did go in on a group buy and I am getting 10gh for 360 usd .
FYI: https://www.kncminer.com/Cloudhashing is buying units from them. Jupiter = 350GH/s = $7,000 = $20 x GH/s = $200 x 10GH/s It will be very easy to see if cloudhashing is a scam by viewing this thread and seeing how they pay my contract as i said I got a july contract so come july see how they pay me. I will post the results.
I think you are not getting what "ponzi scheme" means. Old investors get paid with the money of new investors so more people get sucked in because everybody is speaking about how good they pay, until the scheme collapses. I'm quite sure cloudhasing will pay at the beginning, because a ponzi scheme is so much more profitable than a "hit and run" scam. They will just use the huge markup they have per machine to keep paying investors (each 350GH/s unit costs $7,000 and they are selling it for between $52,000 and $35,000 depending on the plan you choose). They will use YOUR money to pay OTHER folks, until the NEW money runs out - then the scheme collapses and they made huge profits, while their customers are left holding the bag. Fools and their money are soon to be parted. I have a degree in accounting and work for the IRS. My family has a long history of forensic accounting work my brother is a CPA my wife is a retired revenue Agent as is my mother. Ponzi schemes are not unknown to me. While you are assaulting this company with no mercy and no proof my plenty of accusation I put my name and my money on the line to test them out. While you may have 2000 plus posts and while you may be correct that they are a bad deal you have done nothing but make up future projections of network hash rate and difficulty that no one knows are right or wrong. Tell me will it rain at 11 Am on sept 1st in New York City, The answer is ? Tell me the hash rate will be 800 th with a difficulty of 80 million on the 1st of sept. The answer is ? So calling these people a ponzi scheme correct the answer is ? Calling BTC a ponzi scheme the answer is ? In all cases the same answer maybe yes maybe no. I will give you something: Cloudhashing *might* not be a ponzi. There's only another option: They are blatantly lying to their customers about a fairy-tale return that will never happen. They are selling hardware at x5 or x8 mark-up depending on the contract (plus 10% commision) and advertising a fairy-tale projection they know for sure that will never happen to suck in ignorant customers. The best thing it can happen to their customers? Break-even. But then, this would be just a "hit-and-run" operation (but a very profitable one, just make the calculations), because as soon as investors realize they are barely recouping their money and the advertised 500% return is utter bullshit, no new investors will be sucked in. That's why I believe that greed will take over and that they will start running this as a ponzi, but I give you that they may not: in any case, lying to your customers advertising an impossible return is a scam in my book, even if it may not be "illegal". About your question: difficulty projections are not like weather forecasting. You can be 100% sure that the difficulty won't be 20 million in September. You can be 100% sure that difficulty will GROW during the following year, it won't be constant as the cloudshare dumbass assumed in the calculations he posted to "demonstrate" how they arrived to the 50BTC per 10GH/s estimation. And BTW, that's a huge red flag (posting that dumbass calculations), I would be extremely worried if I were you. They have no business plan whatsoever, if you are actually mining you know you won't never ever generate 50BTC with 10GH/s deployed in September, and the fact they say that they will reach that goal by investing 30% of the monthly profits of those 10GH/s makes it even more ridiculous. It's impossible. Mining is a complicate business. A lot of folks don't understand the variables, how high the difficulty is going to go as soon as KnC or BFL deliver, they have just seen the insane profits Avalon batch #1 customers and ASICminer shareholders and think mining is a goldmine. Well, listen carefully: mining was never a goldmine - it's a very competitive business in which you have to fight for pennies. If there are a few folks that made huge returns in the last months, it's just because a new disrupting technology arrived to the market (ASICs), and the very few who had this technology had a very big advantage on the folks mining with GPUs or FPGAs. In September you are not going to get a 500% yearly return with hardware bought with x8 markup. In that case, sorry to tell you man, all Jupiter customers are going to be filthy rich, as each one of their units will mine 1,750BTC per year (just reinvesting 30% of the profits, LOL), and they only paid $200 per each 10GH/s. But I'm telling you: that's not going to happen. More ASICs will arrive to the market, fewer returns there will be. You simply do not get 50BTC from 10GH/s deployed in September, this is hard math. Then, you ask if difficulty will be at 80 million in September? Well, you can be pretty sure that if KnCMiner ships, difficulty will be 80million or above. And BTW, this guys are buying from KnC. |
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As you are selling the units at a huge markup (350GH/s cost $7,000 or less and you are selling them between $52,000 and $35,000), you will pay old investors with new investors money in order to suck more money into your scheme until it collapses. There is no legitimate business that give investors a 500% return in one year, apart from PONZI SCHEMES -> that's what you are going to run.
Anybody believing otherwise is a fool.
Actually it almost certainly is NOT a ponzi. Nowhere do they promise to pay out 500% - that's just the fairy-tale projection they make. They can pay out what they actually promise (output of X hashes) and still pocket a load of cash - no need to be paying from future investments. Of course their projections are total bullshit - investors will be lucky if they ever even get back what they invested. But that doesn't actually make it a scam - as that's true of nearly all mining companies (just not to such a great extent). Where it probably IS a scam is because they give projections which are totally implausible - but try convincing Trading Standards of that if you make a complaint. Ponzi - No. Profitable - No. Scam - Depends on how you define it. Of course they COULD just run and pay out nothing - but that makes little sense, at least until sales dry up. Lying on the expected return is a scam in my book. As you said, those projections WON'T HAPPEN, and very likely their "investors" won't even get back the money they put in this venture. So, cloudhashing has two options: 1) run a one time, "hit-and-run" business, cashing in the huge mark-up they have on the hardware (1GH/s costs them aprox. $20 and they are selling it for $149, PLUS the commision of 10%), and screwing up the first investors that will very soon realize they are getting peanuts for their $. In this case new money will stop flowing in as soon as they start hashing and the clueless people who invested start spreading the word that they are receiving much less than they expected. 2) be very greedy and start making payments according to their fairy-tale projection using the huge mark-up they have on the machines, so people start spreading the word that this indeed is a business that gives you 500% return per year, and new investors pour in en masse. 1 or 2 it's not so different for me. From a legal point of view, probably 1) is not considered an outright scam, while 2) is a ponzi, so I agree that they will likely just go for 1). It may not be a *scam* from a legal point of view, but 1) is still a scam in my book, as they are sucking in money with blatantly false assumptions, knowing their customers will probably lose their money, while they win A LOT in any case. |
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It's two different things.
Using the Altera design flow, they can choose to produce a HardCopy (structured ASIC or FPGA "ROM" if you like) which takes less time to fab than a standard cell ASIC.
But they can ALSO chose to make a standard cell ASIC, from the SAME code (takes longer than structured ASIC/HardCopy).
And better yet, that code ALSO runs on other Altera FPGAs.
So, with that process, they could have shipped an FPGA "today", a HardCopy in a few weeks and the full ASIC a bit later still. They chose to skip steps 1 and 2, that's why you won't have anything to mine with until the ASICs are out.
Curiosity: what's your final position on KnC? Did you finally pre-ordered? |
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Wall getting chewed... Crash or die!
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hi cloudhash. i bought a 2 ghash/s - 1 year contract months ago for july batch for 300 usd, believing this investment would bring me around 10 btc your monthly news update states that may, june and july batch will start hashing this june. knowing now that the mining hardware are yet to be delivered, i'm losing hope that this investment will be valueable, and at the same time i don't want to be called a fool or dumb, hence i want to refund my investment. please guide me on how to file for the refund. many thanks, although i'll be pulling out my investment, i hope your company will do good to you and other investors. looking forward for your prompt reply.
Sure send an email to info with your order number and it will be processed. We don't do customer support on this forum. Kind regards No, because we expose you as the filthy scammers you are. Show us your business plan, come on. Or do you want people to invest in your contracts and believe they will get 50BTC from 10GH/s deployed in September (LOL) base on what, your word? NO. Investors look at the numbers. Show us your business plan so we can finally understand what is your über-genius plan that will enable you to squeeze 50BTC in 12 months from 10GH/s deployed in September, only by reinvesting 30% of the profit in more hardware. And do not embarass yourself like in the other thread, were you presented your ridiculous calculations made at the current difficulty and considering no increase in difficulty whatsoever in one year. That was genius, man. AGAIN: Show - me - the - fucking - numbers. |
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Ponzi, no doubt.
And the prices are ridiculous: $1,000 per 10GH/s - right, they buy the machines from KnCMiner, which units cost $7,000 per 350GH/s, and they sell them for $35,000... And they have the guts to say the the estimated yearly revenue for 10GH/s is aprox. 50BTC
Yeah, so we are all going to be rich.
Jokers...
SCAM
So quick to jump the gun. Read https://www.cloudhashing.com/revenue-reinvestmentOur contract holders get additional hashing power monthly. Very hard to so solo mining. Plus no need to worry about hosting etc. We host in a secure level 3 data centre with reserve power etc. Happy hashing Prove how investing 30% of an expected yearly revenue of no more than 7/8BTC per each 10GH/s you are going to achieve the 50BTC yearly return you are advertising for the 10GH/s contract. If your proposal was serious, you would have a business plan with clear steps towards achieving that return. I'm a miner myself, and every serious miner in here knows that it's impossible to get 50BTC from 10GH/s deployed in September. Impossible. And saying you will reach that by re-investing 30% of the profits is RIDICULOUS. You are advertising an impossible return, therefore there is only one plausible option: As you are selling the units at a huge markup (350GH/s cost $7,000 or less and you are selling them between $52,000 and $35,000), you will pay old investors with new investors money in order to suck more money into your scheme until it collapses. There is no legitimate business that give investors a 500% return in one year, apart from PONZI SCHEMES -> that's what you are going to run. Anybody believing otherwise is a fool. |
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Well well well, coins coming to the order book, is wallzilla propping up the price preparing for his dump? The same old story over and over...  |
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The wall have not been touched at the moment , its 4500B in one order that will probebly be pulld if touched .
The wall was touched, I guarantee you that. But was chewed very little, only a few coins were sold into it. |
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Wallzilla being chewed ATM, seems legit
Crazy whales buying +$500k in coins at $108 when they could buy below $100? What's up with them? What are they smoking?
They didn't know it was going to go up to $108, and they want Bitcoins. Hindsight is always 20/20.. But... But... look at the depth... If he pulls that $500k wall the price will slide down till at least $105, probably till $102... Buying $2, $3 or $4 cheaper it's always better, with that volume we are speaking about 100BTC more... Enough to be a supernode!!  The greater good. Showing people that this is a good buy in point by staking his own capital. This is market confidence. It's called bait and switch. I think it's just bait. He might very well be buying his own wall for all we know... a good show of "support". This is my feeling too. Anyhow, I'm so used to "fake" walls that get immediately pulled as soon as the price get close to them that it kinda puzzles me to see a wall like that being chewed in this kind of slow and bearish market. And that wall was really chewed, not a lot because the volume is low, but it was chewed indeed and it didn't moved a single inch. Boh... Will see... I'm not buying, that's for sure. |
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Wallzilla being chewed ATM, seems legit
Crazy whales buying +$500k in coins at $108 when they could buy below $100? What's up with them? What are they smoking?
They didn't know it was going to go up to $108, and they want Bitcoins. Hindsight is always 20/20.. But... But... look at the depth... If he pulls that $500k wall the price will slide down till at least $105, probably till $102... Buying $2, $3 or $4 cheaper it's always better, with that volume we are speaking about 100BTC more... Enough to be a supernode!! The greater good. Showing people that this is a good buy in point by staking his own capital. This is market confidence. Boh. It could be an epic trap. The spike is notable, that's certain, and Wallzilla is really risking his stash to make of this a "real" breakout. |
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22 BTC
(if escrow or satisfactory collateral is agreed upon)
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Wallzilla being chewed ATM, seems legit
Crazy whales buying +$500k in coins at $108 when they could buy below $100? What's up with them? What are they smoking?
They didn't know it was going to go up to $108, and they want Bitcoins. Hindsight is always 20/20.. But... But... look at the depth... If he pulls that $500k wall the price will slide down till at least $105, probably till $102... Buying $2, $3 or $4 cheaper it's always better, with that volume we are speaking about 100BTC more... Enough to be a supernode!! |
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This is a scam, anybody paying anything without escrow is a fool.
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Wallzilla being chewed ATM, seems legit
Crazy whales buying +$500k in coins at $108 when they could buy below $100? What's up with them? What are they smoking?
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You're not reinvesting additional hash power monthly to all contracts though. That seems to be spelled out pretty clearly on your website. So someone who purchases 10gh (Really 9gh since you're taking 10%) for a September launch does not stand to make their money back. http://www.coinish.com/calc/#The numbers don't work if you start mining in September, assume whatever difficulty you think it would increase by, subtract the 10% from the hash rate. I get negative $300 to negative $450 on a Platinum investment. That might change if you were to increase the hashrate to match the rising difficulty, but otherwise it's a loser investment. I think the bigger problem is that the value of Bitcoin will certainly go down within the next year. Many people have spent a lot of money investing in ASICs and will be looking to cash out to pay off loans, investors, and capital purchases. This run on the market will drain the value of Bitcoin until the market is stable. Having sites like Satoshidice locking off U.S. users is also closing the market doors on people who spend the coins. And that's really what you need. I expect Bitcoin to drop to around $40 in the coming months. Anything lower will cause speculators to invest for the eventual market turn-around. Anything higher will cause Asic miners to cash out. All contracts bar the (bronze ) contract receive addition al hashing power monthly. We will have the site updated to make that clear. It is already clearly spelled out on the revenue reinvestment page. By the end of the first year of most contracts, they hashrate should be well over double (could be more ) what they originally purchased. Given we will have the hashing power in hand, it means no queuing for more hardware for existing customers. Thanks Show me your motherfucking business plan, or do you want investors to believe on your word they will get a yearly 500% return? Where are the calculations? Oh... Yes... You already showed me your calculation.... Considering the actual difficulty and no increase whatsoever in one year. PONZI SCHEMERS AND SCAMMERS, I hope you get busted - people like you and pirateat40 only damage the Bitcoin ecosystem, so cut that stinking crap about "taking Bitcoin mainstream". |
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As for 200 bucks for 10gh no one sells that anywhere but I did go in on a group buy and I am getting 10gh for 360 usd .
FYI: https://www.kncminer.com/Cloudhashing is buying units from them. Jupiter = 350GH/s = $7,000 = $20 x GH/s = $200 x 10GH/s It will be very easy to see if cloudhashing is a scam by viewing this thread and seeing how they pay my contract as i said I got a july contract so come july see how they pay me. I will post the results.
I think you are not getting what "ponzi scheme" means. Old investors get paid with the money of new investors so more people get sucked in because everybody is speaking about how good they pay, until the scheme collapses. I'm quite sure cloudhasing will pay at the beginning, because a ponzi scheme is so much more profitable than a "hit and run" scam. They will just use the huge markup they have per machine to keep paying investors (each 350GH/s unit costs $7,000 and they are selling it for between $52,000 and $35,000 depending on the plan you choose). They will use YOUR money to pay OTHER folks, until the NEW money runs out - then the scheme collapses and they made huge profits, while their customers are left holding the bag. Fools and their money are soon to be parted. |
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I think you are missing some important points here
1) We have not said difficult will not go up. It is the very fact that difficulty increases that by the revenue reinvestment program, additional hashing power is added to client account MONTHLY. This reduces the effect of difficulty in returns by a margin.
2) We have already given customer with July contracts an additional 25% increase in hashing power to compensate for difficulty. This does go some way.
3) No body knows for certainty what the difficult would be 1 year for now so throwing large numbers from thin air is easy to do. People have been going on about 100 million difficulty on June which we have failed to see.
4) BTC price is LIKELY to increase as it does more mainstream (cloudhashing is taking bitcoins mainstream). Customers could see an even higher return on that scenario
We appeal to those new to bitcoin and also those who do now want to manage hardware.
Very simple to call anything a scam without no ounce of proof something fraudulent is occurring. Borders on slander.
We are not forcing or service on anybody. If you are a techie and want to host your hardware, invest in the hardware. If you simply want a solution with reduced maintenance and hassle then Cloud Hash.
Good day
Prove how investing 30% of an expected yearly revenue of no more than 7/8BTC per each 10GH/s you going to reach the 50BTC yearly return you are advertising for the 10GH/s contract. If your proposal was serious, you would have a business plan with clear steps towards achieving that return. I'm a miner myself, and every serious miner in here knows that it's impossible to get 50BTC from 10GH/s deployed on September. Impossible. You are advertising an impossible return, therefore there is only one plausible option: As you are selling the units at a huge markup (350GH/s cost $7,000 or less and you are selling them between $52,000 and $35,000), you will pay old investors with new investors money in order to suck more money into your scheme until it collapses. There is no legitimate business that give investors a 500% return in one year, apart from PONZI SCHEMES -> that's what you are going to run. Anyone believing otherwise is a fool. |
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I think you are missing some important points here
1) We have not said difficult will not go up. It is the very fact that difficulty increases that by the revenue reinvestment program, additional hashing power is added to client account MONTHLY. This reduces the effect of difficulty in returns by a margin.
2) We have already given customer with July contracts an additional 25% increase in hashing power to compensate for difficulty. This does go some way.
3) No body knows for certainty what the difficult would be 1 year for now so throwing large numbers from thin air is easy to do. People have been going on about 100 million difficulty on June which we have failed to see.
4) BTC price is LIKELY to increase as it does more mainstream (cloudhashing is taking bitcoins mainstream). Customers could see an even higher return on that scenario
We appeal to those new to bitcoin and also those who do now want to manage hardware.
Very simple to call anything a scam without no ounce of proof something fraudulent is occurring. Borders on slander.
We are not forcing or service on anybody. If you are a techie and want to host your hardware, invest in the hardware. If you simply want a solution with reduced maintenance and hassle then Cloud Hash.
Good day
Prove how investing 30% of an expected yearly revenue of no more than 7/8BTC per each 10GH/s you going to reach the 50BTC yearly return you are advertising for the 10GH/s contract. If your proposal was serious, you would have a business plan with clear steps towards achieving that return. I'm a miner myself, and every serious miner in here knows that it's impossible to get 50BTC from 10GH/s deployed on September. Impossible. You are advertising an impossible return, therefore there is only one plausible option: As you are selling the units at a huge markup (350GH/s cost $7,000 or less and you are selling them between $52,000 and $35,000), you will pay old investors with new investors money in order to suck more money into your scheme until it collapses. There is no legitimate business that give investors a 500% return in one year, apart from PONZI SCHEMES -> that's what you are going to run. Anybody believing otherwise is a fool. |
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