People here can be so immature regarding money
Obviously, you are one of them. This is why my professional advice to you is: Think twice before start selling something in bitcoins. If you can't manage BTC/USD exchange risk you'd better accept only USD. Don't try to pass this exchange risk on to your customers because what they buy is NOT USD but the actual products and services you sell! sounds like someone over paid in BTC for his mining equipment and knows he will never make that many BTC back again....... Oh, about 99% of BFL customers are in that category. Fortunately, I'm not a BFL customer. |
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People here can be so immature regarding money
Obviously, you are one of them. This is why my professional advice to you is: Think twice before start selling something in bitcoins. If you can't manage BTC/USD exchange risk you'd better accept only USD. Don't try to pass this exchange risk on to your customers because what they buy is NOT USD but the actual products and services you sell! |
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bitpay who automatically turn your btc into USD that is how their business works......... Not really... Business works through contracts. BitPay is NOT turning my BTC into USD as I don't have any contractual relations with BitPay. BitPay is turning BFL's bitcoins into USD as BFL is a BitPay customer. It is completely up to BFL to decide what % of BTC received with BitPay they want converted into USD! |
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If you paid for your order with 50 BTC, you should get a refund of 50 BTC. If you paid with $1000 USD, you should get a refund of $1000 USD.
Seems pretty obvious to me?
Sure. People arguing the opposite are actually saying that BTC will never be used as a currency without the USD and will always depend on BTC/USD exchange rate. Sounds familiar, huh? They want BTC to be just an extension of the USD?! And those people claim they are part of BTC community!? It is beyond my understanding. |
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Well let's flip the possibilities.. and then add in a dash of reasoning..
If someone paid ~2.5 BTC to buy a Jalapeno right now.. and then 3 months from now BTC plunges to 5$ a BTC again.. Would that customer.. or YOU.. be DEMANDING that you get your 2.5BTC back? Of course, this is how markets work! By sending my BTC to BFL I'm buying ASICs. I'm not buying USD as BFL speculators want me to believe. If the price of BTC drops to zero the prices of all BFL ASICs will be zero as they'll be completely useless. |
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If someone paid 300 BTC for 1 Jalapeno last June, how would it make any sense to give them back 300 BTC for their refund now, enabling them to buy ~150 Jalapenos right now? What a stupid argument... Someone that had 300 BTC last June and just kept them on their wallet until now is smarter because they can buy now 150 Jalapenos if they decide to. Only fools paid BFL 300 BTC for 1 Jalapeno last June, right? Excellent point. |
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Markets have no mercy. You are being punished for shorting Bitcoin. I have been punished for BFL gambling addiction. BFL customers have no control over how much will BFL decide to convert in USD and how much will they keep in Bitcoin. This % can vary and depends solely on how the merchant sets up their merchant account with BitPay. Professional traders know what is the meaning of a currency option call. This option call is free for BFL. If BTC/USD gamble is successful the profit is for BFL crooks if it is a loss then it is paid by their customers in the form of partial Bitcoin refunds. |
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Good god man, you're still going on about BitPay? Not me man, it is BFL trying to pass their troubles to BitPay! Here's a quick little step-by-step on how payments for products (in this case, products from Butterfly Labs) works:
1. Customer [with Bitcoins] is on the website.
2. They select a BFL product they'd like to purchase, choosing payment in Bitcoins.
3, Invoice is generated and a third party payment processor (BitPay) takes over at checkout.
4. Bitcoins are sent to the BitPay address as listed on the invoice.
5. BitPay recognizes the payment and converts all of those coins to a fiat (in this case, USD) at whatever the current market rate is.
6. BitPay shows that you've paid your invoice and redirects you back to the previous website.
7. BitPay sends the payment (in fiat) to Butterfly Labs (and takes their cut).
8. BFL shows you've paid and are processing your order.
So, explain to me again why BFL should pay out Bitcoins during a refund?
Here's a quick little one-step answer: 1. BFL instruct customer to pay in bitcoin, they get bitcoin, and issue commercial invoice priced in bitcoin. |
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No, the question would rather boil down to: Would a judge find it reasonable that the development and shipping of a product clearly stated to be in development took more than double the time as stipulated. (AFAIK the original stipulation was 4 months.) Translated... The question would rather boil down to: Would a judge find it reasonable that BFL customers are actually investors without having the rights of investors! |
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My ignore list here has about 80 names on it since April, that's more than the sum total of ignore lists on every other forum I am currently on, or have ever been a member of, that should tell you about the kind of people that post here. Yeah, and my ignore counter has 41 counts. That should tell you how many BFL sock puppets we have on these forums! |
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I have a Bitpay merchant account, I know how it works.
I have too. This is why I'm surprised to read that you don't undestand what is the difference between paying by bitcoins and paying by PayPal/credit card. I don't own any $US, it's not my local currency, for me to pay BFL I would have to convert to $US generally using PayPal, and if I wanted a refund I would expect to have to convert back from $US to my local currency regardless of what happened to the exchange rate in the meantime. If my local currency was BTC I would expect the conversion to use the spot exchange rate, not some past exchange rate. Didn't I already mentioned 2 times that to pay using PayPal you have to be PayPal customer? This is not the case with BitPay, because BFL customers are not BitPay customers! If I pay USD priced product via a credit card run in GBP my bank is doing the currency conversion for me and sending USD to the merchant. My bank has a contract signed with me and is licensed to do such currency conversions. The transactional currency is USD and merchant never has control on my GBP. They don't even see how much GBP I have paid. Respectively the invoice is issued in USD. If there is a refund request USD are converted in GBP AGAIN by MY BANK because this is my bank I have authorized to do so! How can BFL claim they refund USD if they don't even know what is the USD bank account of their customer? |
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I understand if you didn't have time to talk to your lawyer yet I understood that BFL lawyer is too busy talking with other customer lawyers. We must be very careful to not allow BFL file for bankruptcy before we get what we can get. |
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Unlike some other ASIC vendors, BFL products are priced in $US not BTC, how you come up with those $US is up to you. You're far far away from truth. 1. BFL products are priced both in USD and BTC. You can see the proof on the commercial invoice BFL issues to their customers. The official document for every purchase is the INVOICE:  2. How I "come up with those $US" is exactly NOT my choice but BFL's choice, because customer acts entirely upon BFL instructions how much bitcoins to what bitcoin address they have to pay! If you choose to use Bitpay instead of Paypal because you want to convert some BTC to $US to pay for the item, then what happens to the BTC after Bitpay receives them is no longer your concern.
1. If I choose to use PayPal I have to be PayPal customer! Customers paying in BTC don't choose to use BitPay. BFL made this choice. BFL customers are not BitPay customers for they don't sign any contract with BitPay to be their customers. BFL signed such a contract with BitPay to be their customer. 2. You are correct that once BTC are on BFL's bitcoin account with BitPay customers don't have any control over them. Reason for this is that transactional currency is BTC not USD. As we all know refund is nothing else but a reversal of a transaction. This is why BTC refund must be in BTC not in USD. 3. Bitcoin refunds are treated by BFL as if customers didn't purchase ASIC but USD. This is a blatant violation of all forex regulations. Neither BFL nor BitPay have been licensed to make currency conversion for BFL customers. They are not regulated as exchanges. |
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Those convert the coins to USD I'd imagine, and do it on the spot. The price of bitcoin skyrockets and you expect to get that gain even though you willingly parted with them for a product at the value of the time? I'd ask, why? Its no different to making a trade on Gox and then seeing the price go up.
Your logic has major discrepancies. 1. BitPay is coverting BTC to USD on behalf of BFL and to the extend BFL wish. They may covert 100% of the bitcoins received, 50%, or none at all. Depends how BFL setup their merchant account with BitPay. Don't forget that contractual obligation to covert all of the BTC or part of it is between BFL and BitPay, not between BitPay and BFL customers! 2. If you ask why, I'll ask as well. If bitcoin price skyrockets, I don't understand how is purchasing bitcoins from MtGox and sending them to BFL is more profitable than purchasing bitcoins from MtGox and keeping them in my bitcoin wallet? On the contrary, if bitcoin price skyrockets and BFL refunds BTC pre-orders in USD they simply profit from the free option call gambling customer money. 3. If bitcoin price drops to zero BFL customers are losers again despite that they've some chance to get USD priced product in future. It is very close to mind that if bitcoin price drops to zero the price of BFL ASICs will be zero either for they can not be used for anything else but mine bitcoins. In fact you'll have to pay extra money to dump them in electronic garbage depo. |
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Have none of you ever worked in a customer focused role? I have never witnessed another "business" taking pre-orders ONE YEAR ahead, lying they have attracted venture capital, using customers money for R&D, refusing full bitcoin refunds, and lying all the time month after month that what they need is just two more weeks and everything will be okay! Have you?! |
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The evidence is enormous. Josh posted the screenshot immediately after your post. What if Josh's screenshot is genuine but he coordinated his action with bitcointalk mod insider switching names? Knowing from my own experience how some mods ferociously defend BFL crooks on these forums it won't surprise me at all! |
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I have a question for Josh:
If you were a bitcoin miner, at this point why in the world would you buy a BFL product? Anyone who recently purchased a BFL product from BFL PLEASE feel free to chime in.
It's pretty obvious if you want an ASIC mining rig, what else is there? No more Avalon batch announcements, KNCminer have never shipped a thing, so your alternatives are very limited, you can wait months for one of the numerous Avalon chip board projects to be produced, which have their own long waiting queues. BFL and Block Erupter seem to be the only things actually shipping that you can order. Really good point, but would you place a new order for a BFL ASIC today? If you placed a BFL order right now, do you think you could get it before you could get a similar product elsewhere? You can always place new order for an ASIC from BFL or elsewhere IF ONLY you take some precautionary steps to secure your investment. Read the Manual: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=136615.0 |
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lol now every BLF customers will praise BFL or keep quiet so they don't get a forced refund forced robbery after waiting for months.
I've corrected it for you. Partial BTC refund is nothing but robbery. If BFL accept payments in BTC they should also honor full BTC refunds. If they don't they should not accept payments in BTC. BFL crooks get free option call at expense of their customers (rather investors). No court of law will accept this as a normal commercial practice. |
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If you'd like to hold the 5 BTC at a specific address (and name the address) then I will create a task within the project for internationalization, and your 5 BTC will show up as allotted for that task.
I don't see much difference between my promise to pay 5 BTC for that task and keep 5 BTC on a specified address under my ownership. This is why I shall gladly transfer 5 BTC to an address you specify. Just PM me a bitcoin address of your choice? Okay I have created this address: 1CHmSeTMYzJMshQhgYiUkMbUY1rATPovzY If you want to send the 5 BTC there, then I will set up a task on the Holy Grail bounty for that address, for the purposes of Internationalization of the project. Thanks for your interest and thanks in advance for your donation! 5 BTC sent. Thanks. |
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If you'd like to hold the 5 BTC at a specific address (and name the address) then I will create a task within the project for internationalization, and your 5 BTC will show up as allotted for that task.
I don't see much difference between my promise to pay 5 BTC for that task and keep 5 BTC on a specified address under my ownership. This is why I shall gladly transfer 5 BTC to an address you specify. Just PM me a bitcoin address of your choice? |
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