Recieved 50GH BFL Single Today!

[ThatDGuy]

I forgot about your severe challenges with logic. Let me illustrate how absurd your position is.

I give you $2000 of gold that you need to hold as a reserve, and in return you promise pay me the market value of the gold + $20 interest in 6 months time. 6 months passes. You do not pay. Another 6 months passes, the spot value of gold has now increased 50 fold over when the contract was first entered. You decide that instead of paying me the market value (and $20) that you promised, you will "refund" the $2000 instead of the gold. Now you sell the gold at market for a 50x profit.

Then you get sued for breach of contract and lose. Then you sue your lawyer for advising you to go to court instead of settle. Then you get herpes. (its my fact pattern I can stipulate what I want ).

Why are you creating a whole new example?

No ASIC company is going to refund 300 BTC right now if you paid 300 BTC a year ago for a pre-order.

That statement might be correct and does not conflict with any examples I have provided.
BFL will not willingly "refund" 300 BTC. They would have to be compelled to do so.

Exactly.  No ASIC company with pre-orders would.  Any customer expecting it is naive.  

Your example was extraneous.

[ThatDGuy]

Just noticed that the auction is no longer on ebay. I wonder if the OP got his 25k or decided to mine with it.

Yeah, I just noticed that too but the item isn't available to view like with closed auctions. It's completely removed without a trace. That usually happens when someone complains to eBay about the listing or eBay decides to remove it on their own. I saw that a few times with big actual fireworks listed on eBay.

Ebay canceled the listing not me. They want me to "verify" my account with ID because the price is much higher than anything I've ever sold to protect the buyers which is something they are good at. They also want me to prove I own the device by having the manufacture send them a receipt. They also asked why shipping would be delayed if 25K wasn't met. They couldn't understand that. This is a good thing. It gives me a chance to make a listing that doesn't rub anyone the wrong way and using Bitmit which is what I should have used in the first place.

Now, do I trust that much money sitting in escrow on Bitmit?

Mentioned in one of the answers to the questions posed on ebay, I plan to use these funds to fuel development of a 3rd party BFL chip miner.

Thanks,
      Allten

Good luck with the sale and thanks for the transparency!

[Nemesis]

Just noticed that the auction is no longer on ebay. I wonder if the OP got his 25k or decided to mine with it.

Yeah, I just noticed that too but the item isn't available to view like with closed auctions. It's completely removed without a trace. That usually happens when someone complains to eBay about the listing or eBay decides to remove it on their own. I saw that a few times with big actual fireworks listed on eBay.

Ebay canceled the listing not me. They want me to "verify" my account with ID because the price is much higher than anything I've ever sold to protect the buyers which is something they are good at. They also want me to prove I own the device by having the manufacture send them a receipt. They also asked why shipping would be delayed if 25K wasn't met. They couldn't understand that. This is a good thing. It gives me a chance to make a listing that doesn't rub anyone the wrong way and using Bitmit which is what I should have used in the first place.

Now, do I trust that much money sitting in escrow on Bitmit?

Mentioned in one of the answers to the questions posed on ebay, I plan to use these funds to fuel development of a 3rd party BFL chip miner.

Thanks,
      Allten

What do you expect? PPL have warned you about ebay.

Good luck with Bitmit, using escrow is your only option really

[k9quaint]

I forgot about your severe challenges with logic. Let me illustrate how absurd your position is.

I give you $2000 of gold that you need to hold as a reserve, and in return you promise pay me the market value of the gold + $20 interest in 6 months time. 6 months passes. You do not pay. Another 6 months passes, the spot value of gold has now increased 50 fold over when the contract was first entered. You decide that instead of paying me the market value (and $20) that you promised, you will "refund" the $2000 instead of the gold. Now you sell the gold at market for a 50x profit.

Then you get sued for breach of contract and lose. Then you sue your lawyer for advising you to go to court instead of settle. Then you get herpes. (its my fact pattern I can stipulate what I want ).

Why are you creating a whole new example?

No ASIC company is going to refund 300 BTC right now if you paid 300 BTC a year ago for a pre-order.

That statement might be correct and does not conflict with any examples I have provided.
BFL will not willingly "refund" 300 BTC. They would have to be compelled to do so.

Exactly.  No ASIC company with pre-orders would.  Any customer expecting it is naive. 

Customers that expect BFL to follow the law might indeed be naive. Those customers are not without recourse.
It will be interesting to see what a judge considers a reasonable time for delivery of product in this case. Presuming of course that BFL does not settle.

[becoin]

If someone paid 300 BTC for 1 Jalapeno last June, how would it make any sense to give them back 300 BTC for their refund now, enabling them to buy ~150 Jalapenos right now?

What a stupid argument... Someone that had 300 BTC last June and just kept them on their wallet until now is smarter because they can buy now 150 Jalapenos if they decide to. Only fools paid BFL 300 BTC for 1 Jalapeno last June, right? Excellent point.

[ThatDGuy]

If someone paid 300 BTC for 1 Jalapeno last June, how would it make any sense to give them back 300 BTC for their refund now, enabling them to buy ~150 Jalapenos right now?

What a stupid argument... Someone that had 300 BTC last June and just kept them on their wallet until now is smarter because they can buy now 150 Jalapenos if they decide to. Only fools paid BFL 300 BTC for 1 Jalapeno last June, right? Excellent point.

I proposed that "stupid" argument solely to give an example of what you were asking for.  Congratulations, and thank you on proving my point.

[k9quaint]

If someone paid 300 BTC for 1 Jalapeno last June, how would it make any sense to give them back 300 BTC for their refund now, enabling them to buy ~150 Jalapenos right now?

What a stupid argument... Someone that had 300 BTC last June and just kept them on their wallet until now is smarter because they can buy now 150 Jalapenos if they decide to. Only fools paid BFL 300 BTC for 1 Jalapeno last June, right? Excellent point.

I proposed that "stupid" argument solely to give an example of what you were asking for.  Congratulations, and thank you on proving my point.

BFL took a currency risk and apparently did not hedge it. Or they hedged it (by keeping the BTC paid instead of converting to USD) but are now unwilling to part with the profit made by holding that hedge. The only way it matters why BFL does not want to refund either what customers paid or what customers are due is if they deliberately set out to defraud people.

BFL had to offer refunds to anyone because otherwise nobody in their right mind would give them money. That might prove to be inconvenient later on

[Flying Hellfish]

I understand if you didn't have time to talk to your lawyer yet

I understood that BFL lawyer is too busy talking with other customer lawyers.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but it appears (so far) that "BFL lawyer" is too busy ignoring customer lawyers and demand letters, and looking to create more problems for themselves

 To my understanding, the system frowns upon ignoring efforts to reconcile a dispute, prior to attending court.

EDIT: Official response received through my attorney this aft. Ceasing discussing anything related to Butterfly Labs or Josh while the next stage of this dispute is being worked through. Thanks for the support everyone.

Good luck Xian01 I really this works out for you (and consequently not BFL!!).  I also hope if you do happen to settle before going to court that you don't accept a "gag order" type settlement, I think there are a great many people that would benefit and be very interested in how this turns out.

[Fiyasko]

I think it should be Very Well Noted, that the First BFL Single, Is being put up for sale Immediatley.
Showing what I believe to be Doubt in the product, my bet is that the seller is worried about the lifetime of the product
I have yet to see a running BFL asic that doesnt put out HW errors

[hexed]

Well let's flip the possibilities.. and then add in a dash of reasoning..

If someone paid ~2.5 BTC to buy a Jalapeno right now.. and then 3 months from now BTC plunges to 5$ a BTC again..  Would that customer.. or YOU.. be DEMANDING that you get your 2.5BTC back?  You think if BFL forced the 2.5BTC on you when that only added up to ~$12.50, that that would be ok?  

Let's look at the truths though.  When they charged people in BTC.. they were NOT charging people for direct BTC.  The site had USD prices listed as the main price.. bolded.  Below that they had an amount that added up to however many bitcoins that amount in USD costs.  The sale was in USD.  If you wanted to pay in Canadian dollars, or pesos, and if they allowed it, they would have sent you the bill in USD along with an amount in pesos.. or Canadian dollars that equaled the USD price.  If the payments never had USD listed, or the website was not advertising in USD, I could see the confusion, and the complaint but they were.  Plain and simple.   What you chose to take out of that other than, "This US based company, who buys things with US dollars, who was invested in with US dollars, is selling a product for US dollars" is your own fault.

What about all the online retailers taking bitcoin as payment.  Do you mean to tell me if they offer returns (say 30 day for electronics) that I can get my product, but have 30 day insurance that if bitcoin goes WAY up in price I can force a return, and get bitcoins that are worth twice the amount?

...can no one see the logic in this?  Can no one see the MAJOR scams that would come out of this being a common practice?  If the price of bitcoins tanked like my example at the top of this post, and butterfly labs was offering refunds back in BTC worth 1/20th the cost they originally were worth, EVERYONE would be calling that a scam, and so would I.

[Korbman]

Well let's flip the possibilities.. and then add in a dash of reasoning..

Relax, both becoin and K9 know exactly how BitPay works. They're just purposely trolling to get a rise out of people by claiming ignorance. Becoin alone has been running with the same arguments for months now. It's usually just easier to put them on ignore.

[boonies4u]

BFL took a currency risk and apparently did not hedge it. Or they hedged it (by keeping the BTC paid instead of converting to USD) but are now unwilling to part with the profit made by holding that hedge.

The truth is that you won't know in what form and at what ratio (if they received a split) they received money for their products that were very clearly priced in USD.

Most people assume that they received some USD, at least.

[k9quaint]

Well let's flip the possibilities.. and then add in a dash of reasoning..

If someone paid ~2.5 BTC to buy a Jalapeno right now.. and then 3 months from now BTC plunges to 5$ a BTC again..  Would that customer.. or YOU.. be DEMANDING that you get your 2.5BTC back?  You think if BFL forced the 2.5BTC on you when that only added up to ~$12.50, that that would be ok?  

If they are selling it for BTC, and I paid for it in BTC, and then I asked for a refund and I got the refund in BTC, what possible cause could I have to complain?
BTC is supposed to be a currency. What the company does with that currency after I give it to them is their problem. If they offer to accept it, until they deliver they have a forex risk that they should probably hedge.

Let's look at the truths though.  When they charged people in BTC.. they were NOT charging people for direct BTC.  The site had USD prices listed as the main price.. bolded.  Below that they had an amount that added up to however many bitcoins that amount in USD costs.  The sale was in USD.  

So everyone should print a bold price in Zimbabwean dollars and just refund people with those, no matter which currency they paid in originally?

If you wanted to pay in Canadian dollars, or pesos, and if they allowed it, they would have sent you the bill in USD along with an amount in pesos.. or Canadian dollars that equaled the USD price.

When I buy alpaca from Peru on Amazon for USD, I pay USD. The company probably converts that money to Nuevos Sol, but if they refund my money, they will send me USD (no matter what the current exchange rate is, they were holding my dollars, when I want them back, I want the same number of dollars back).

 If the payments never had USD listed, or the website was not advertising in USD, I could see the confusion, and the complaint but they were.  Plain and simple.   What you chose to take out of that other than, "This US based company, who buys things with US dollars, who was invested in with US dollars, is selling a product for US dollars" is your own fault.

They accepted BTC, they should refund in BTC, not Zimbabwean dollars or US dollars, or Hong Kong dollars, or any other currency that just happens to have a really favorable exchange rate. If they did not properly hedge their exchange rate risk, that is their problem, not their customers.

What about all the online retailers taking bitcoin as payment.  Do you mean to tell me if they offer returns (say 30 day for electronics) that I can get my product, but have 30 day insurance that if bitcoin goes WAY up in price I can force a return, and get bitcoins that are worth twice the amount?

Yes. If you hold the BTC, you can refund the BTC. If they get the product back, they get the BTC back. Do you think Sony refunds you less USD when the Yen falls because they price their TV somewhere on a website in Yen?

...can no one see the logic in this?  Can no one see the MAJOR scams that would come out of this being a common practice?  If the price of bitcoins tanked like my example at the top of this post, and butterfly labs was offering refunds back in BTC worth 1/20th the cost they originally were worth, EVERYONE would be calling that a scam, and so would I.

If a european customer paid US$100 and then USD tanked and they asked for a refund and the company refunded their US$100, why would they complain? 100 USD in 100 USD out.

As far as Bitpay, that is BFL subcontracting out the actual exchange. It is just like using Paypal, or Mastercard, or Visa.
If I sent Paypal US$1000 to buy a TV direct from Sony. Then Paypal sends 80000 Yen to Sony (because they want to let Paypal handle the currency exchange) for my TV. When I ask Paypal for a refund 44 days later, will I get Yen or Dollars back? Will I get the same number of dollars I sent back? Or will it depend on the current exchange rate?

[allten]

I think it should be Very Well Noted, that the First BFL Single, Is being put up for sale Immediatley.
Showing what I believe to be Doubt in the product, my bet is that the seller is worried about the lifetime of the product
I have yet to see a running BFL asic that doesnt put out HW errors

Here, let me help cure the speculation.

The hardware is really nice. BFL took a long time to ensure we get a good high quality product.
I do admit though that I would have happily taken any POS months ago that worked vs. a solid product today.
I do understand that wasn't an option for them and is part of the reason I'm glad they are selling their chips.

My rationale behind selling: Getting my long awaited miner didn't help with the frustration and anxiety dealing with
the over promising and under delivering from BFL as a customer. 
I would rather see the reminder of that pain gone at the moment. Also, I will be over my power budget of a 1000 Watts
after the others come so a few will have to go eventually. It's currently summer where I live with 110+F weather and increased electricity for
the summer rates. Don't forget the house cooling costs. And most importantly, I believe it will sell for more
than its potential ROI at this point because there are those that gotta have the hardware at any cost RIGHT NOW.
I don't want to deny them the opportunity. Oh yeah, and I'm curious what is the market rate for one of these ATM.
Aren't you?

Sorry for rubbing anyone the wrong way. All the negative feelings of being a BFL customer kind of culminated at the birth of this
thread and the ebay listing. Just couldn't keep my cool I guess. As I've said before. Can't wait 'till all the ASIC drama is over with.
It will be the day anyone can order top of the line mining hardware at marginal cost and have it delivered within days IMO.

-Allten

[erk]

BFL took a currency risk and apparently did not hedge it. Or they hedged it (by keeping the BTC paid instead of converting to USD) but are now unwilling to part with the profit made by holding that hedge.

The truth is that you won't know in what form and at what ratio (if they received a split) they received money for their products that were very clearly priced in USD.

Most people assume that they received some USD, at least.

How else would BFL pay for their components, rent, wages. and other expenses? It's nice to think you can use BTC for some things, but in reality it's not very many.

[miter_myles]

I reported that auction a couple days ago.. I'm sure others did as well.. 

[allten]

I reported that auction a couple days ago.. I'm sure others did as well.. 

Thanks! You did me a big favor. You really did.

[miter_myles]

I reported that auction a couple days ago.. I'm sure others did as well.. 

Thanks! You did me a big favor. You really did.

Anytime! Feel free to tip!

[Nightowlace]

Please, present your evidence then Maged.  You are full of shit, plain and simple.  There's proof positive via screen shot, tons of circumstantial evidence and if SMF is worth a shit, there should be easily verifiable tracking information via soft delete and IP logs to finish it all off.  What "evidence" do you have that I faked any of it? 

But lets examine the whole premise... why would I even BOTHER to fake that, in that particular manner?  That doesn't even make sense... if I'm going to fake something, it would be something far more damning than THAT post.  In fact, I'll even let you, Maged, remote into my machine and examine the browser window to verify it for yourself.

You sir have some of the biggest balls and least amount of brain cells of anyone I have ever come across. You still ONE YEAR later have failed to deliver your products costing your customers MILLIONS of dollars in lost revenue and you have the audacity to come onto this forum and act like a childish, immature, teenage girl. You want to make accusations, call people names, act arrogant, egotistical, when you should be tucking your tail between your legs and kissing everyone's ass. WE the people of this forum and the rest of BFL customers have paid your salary for the last year. We have funded your business. We have paid for your development, your research, and we have eaten shit, listened to your lies week after week and have paid for your failures for the last year.

You are the giant piece of shit. You are the manipulator. You are the conman. You are everything you accuse others to be.

Remember when you point your finger at someone their are three looking back at you.

[k9quaint]

BFL took a currency risk and apparently did not hedge it. Or they hedged it (by keeping the BTC paid instead of converting to USD) but are now unwilling to part with the profit made by holding that hedge.

The truth is that you won't know in what form and at what ratio (if they received a split) they received money for their products that were very clearly priced in USD.

Most people assume that they received some USD, at least.

How else would BFL pay for their components, rent, wages. and other expenses? It's nice to think you can use BTC for some things, but in reality it's not very many.

BFL has stated over and over that they have not touched customer funds for development and operations.
BFL has stated over and over that they put the funds in escrow and that anyone who wants a refund can have one.
If BFL was going to put into escrow what they collected from customers, why on earth would they instruct Bitpay to convert the BTC to anything else? That would create the mother of all exchange rate risks.

Bitpay will convert BTC into any of 30 other currencies and deposit those funds into a bank account of the merchants choosing. Bitpay will just send the BTC unless the merchant tells them otherwise. https://bitpay.com/faq

If BFL did convert the BTC into USD to pay rent, wages, and buy components, then why did they lie about doing so?