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341  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: A new name for mining on: March 08, 2013, 08:41:17 PM
People running clients are, relaying, storing, and validating block and transactions.  Is that accurate ?

It is.
342  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin today on Peter Schiff Radio on: March 08, 2013, 07:09:23 PM
The first loop of the recording is about to be played, listen here: http://www.schiffradio.com/pg/jsp/charts/archiveaudioplayer.jsp
343  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin today on Peter Schiff Radio on: March 08, 2013, 06:22:16 PM
Tom Woods at the beginning of the show when previewing his second guest among other things says "...if Bitcoin can do what they're saying it can do I'm slowly becoming a convert."
344  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer - MtGoxUSD wall movement tracker on: March 08, 2013, 04:54:37 PM
Well it's on the up at the moment, anyone care to call the top before it drops ?

I don't know but those $2,5mil worth of asks sitting at $50 sure as hell look menacing.
345  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: Soft block size limit reached, action required by YOU on: March 08, 2013, 04:52:31 PM
You seem to have problems with the idea that mining might get paid for by any mechanism other than transaction fees. The world is full of things that are "free" but get paid for via other means.

Yeah exactly, like getting paid by losing the decentralization and no central authority feature. I don't need that kind of Bitcoin even though it might very well be exactly what you want.
346  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Satoshi Nakamoto's words regarding nodes, mining and blocksize 100GB TX/Day! on: March 08, 2013, 04:32:24 PM
Fallacy: Appeal to authority

Satoshi although brilliant is a mere man and not in anyway infallible and has been shown to have made many mistakes.

His words while carrying some merit are absolutely irrelevant when they are not supported by sound arguments using logic and current empirical evidence when faced with the current problems at hand. Put simply, if he isn't coming back to address the situation we have found ourselves in it doesn't matter what he thought 2-3 years ago.

It's not well known that the fallacy is actually "Appeal to Irrelevant Authority".

Surely you don't plan to argue against the proposition that "Satoshi's statements 2-3 years ago are positively correlated with accurate statements about today's effective cryptocurrency protocols"?

Yes, and a man's words are irrelevant authority. And I would indeed argue that what Satoshi said 2-3 years ago regarding cryptographic protocols was irrelevant if it wasn't based in logic and empirical evidence - the only relevant authority.
347  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: Soft block size limit reached, action required by YOU on: March 08, 2013, 02:28:39 PM
Just wow Mike.  Roll Eyes
hazek I don't understand you here.  I normally agree with the vast majority of what you say.  You're very pro free-market and normally rational.  

But on this one issue you seem to think it needs to be solved by wise men rather than market prices.  Why the lack of faith on this one issue?  No I don't believe there is a tragedy of the commons here.

Because I don't want the security of Bitcoin to fall victim to the tragedy of the commons or get centralized between a few super nodes. And if that is the path the market will take Bitcoin on, I will unfortunately need to move to on to better things.
348  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Rush Limbaugh Endorses Bitcoin on: March 08, 2013, 02:07:18 PM
No he didn't. Stop spreading this lie.

If you pay attention you'll hear he is mocking Bitcoin by comparing it with the idea of mining a trillion dollar platinum coin to pay off the national debt.
349  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: A new name for mining on: March 08, 2013, 01:17:37 PM
Currently there's still more than 10% inflation per year because of _mining_. Once this number falls below 1% or so, you might want to call it something else, but at the moment the main income of miners is creating NEW coins, not auditing transactions.

You miss what is important. Being allowed to issue coins does not matter to Bitcoin and with it alone Bitcoin fails miserably. It's the validating of transactions part which keeps Bitcoin functioning, the issuing of new bitcoins and fees are just the benefits.
350  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: A new name for mining on: March 08, 2013, 12:58:28 PM
When talking to newbies I describe the network as a collection of independent auditors, who verify all the transactions in return for a small fee. Then later on I might use the word mining and compare it to gold/silver once they roughly understand the concept.

This really should be the go to phrase and way of introducing new people to mining, many say it and I agree that it's the easiest to grasp.
351  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: A new name for mining on: March 08, 2013, 12:52:36 PM
Mike Hearn want's us to believe it should be called "Heating, inefficient but with a few added benefits!"  Cheesy
352  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: Soft block size limit reached, action required by YOU on: March 08, 2013, 12:30:14 PM
Just wow Mike.  Roll Eyes
353  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: Soft block size limit reached, action required by YOU on: March 08, 2013, 07:41:49 AM
It's not wrong, because it's not the entire solution. I forgot to add that you also determine fees by checking every 2016 blocks what the average fees per block were. Now miners can't manipulate the fee anymore because they don't know who will find the next block, well unless they unanimously decided to insert fees enough to raise the limit, something really hard to achieve since if just one big miner doesn't agree the rest would be paying him to raise the limit.

Is this software design by debate?  Am I the design oracle which will only tell you when a design is no good, so you search for the solution by suggesting all the things which are not the solution? Tongue

Think a little harder on this. This fails because its costless and obviously in all miners interest to mine fake fees. Fees are paid to this block, not the next block, miners would pay fees to themselves and skew up the average. Your revised proposal is isomorphic to straight up having miners vote on it, which fails for all the previously discussed reasons.

Yeah.. nvm me, a non dev noob.  Tongue I thought about it a bit more after I went to bed last night and it occurred to me what you're saying Tongue I just wasn't sure if a miner can add a tx with some outrages fee that he doesn't need to broadcast while "looking" for a block. If he doesn't 1 miner alone could skew the average above that limit.


Well good luck to Bitcoin and all of us because I now really think we're going to need it if we are to find a solution that will scale and will provide the right incentives.
354  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: Soft block size limit reached, action required by YOU on: March 08, 2013, 03:31:38 AM
Why not simply require fees == 50 - subsidy before the block size can be raised by double? And if fees drop bellow say fees < ( 50 - subsidy ) / 2 the block size gets halved to min 1Mb.
"For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong."

Miners can just put 100 BTC TXN fees in their blocks— they're paid back to the miner after all, it costs them nothing but the risk that someone will reorg the chain to steal their block.  Also why "50"  by fixing 50 in the system you end up creating price distortion.

It's not wrong, because it's not the entire solution. I forgot to add that you also determine fees by checking every 2016 blocks what the average fees per block were. Now miners can't manipulate the fee anymore because they don't know who will find the next block, well unless they unanimously decided to insert fees enough to raise the limit, something really hard to achieve since if just one big miner doesn't agree the rest would be paying him to raise the limit.

I had made a off the cuff suggestion which was similar to your motivation there but lacked these risks:  Set the new maximum blocksize to the median of the prior sizes multiplied by half the change in difficulty for increases in difficulty and by the full change for decreases, clamped to no smaller than 1MB. The idea is two fold: it's a cheat-proof way for miners to prove that an increase in size won't break the fee market because they have to work increase computing power to increase it,  and it indirectly measures the progress of silicon: if computers are twice as fast per unit energy, difficulty should be twice as high ... and boring nodes could hand 25% more transactions.  "If miners think that security can be maintained by increasing blocksize, then let them prove it by putting in more hashpower".

I don't like it because it only addresses the security spiral to the bottom problem. It doesn't address concerns about censorship, mining consolidation, enfranchisement of the users, etc. very much. It's also moderately complicated to understand.  It's also not realistic until mining is primarily on modern asics otherwise it will overly measure the change in technology type rather than the returns on mining.

I don't like this idea because I don't think enough fees would be collected to provide for adequate security. What if hashpower becomes so easy to increase that the relationship you set as a rule for block size limit being raised doesn't even beging to cover anything?

Seriously Mike? People will use miners for heat? Man for a smart engineer you sure say some pretty stupid things.
My home was heated for two winters with mining. It is not the most energy efficient form of heating, if you ignore the mining income. But mining income is real and in very cold climates heat-pumps are not as effective. Ground loop for non-air heat sources for them are costly to install, etc.

I said it's retarded to suggest it in Mikes scenario when there is no(or close to no) income. There are better ways to heat than to run a miner on a loss.
355  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: Soft block size limit reached, action required by YOU on: March 08, 2013, 03:19:44 AM
Quote
Seriously Mike? People will use miners for heat? Man for a smart engineer you sure say some pretty stupid things.

I use the waste heat from mining as a product as well. Right up until now my mining has at least broken even with power costs AND produced bitcoins that I can spend (on more heat if I wanted). So because I get the heat (100% efficiency electric heating) and I get at least as much money back as I paid on heat, you could easily say that it's over 200% efficient.

Right. But Mike said people would keep doing what you're doing despite there being no profits in mining. Would you still mine purely for heat? Of course not. What a retarded thing to suggest.
356  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Satoshi Nakamoto's words regarding nodes, mining and blocksize 100GB TX/Day! on: March 08, 2013, 03:12:57 AM
Fallacy: Appeal to authority

Satoshi although brilliant is a mere man and not in anyway infallible and has been shown to have made many mistakes.

His words while carrying some merit are absolutely irrelevant when they are not supported by sound arguments using logic and current empirical evidence when faced with the current problems at hand. Put simply, if he isn't coming back to address the situation we have found ourselves in it doesn't matter what he thought 2-3 years ago.
357  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: Soft block size limit reached, action required by YOU on: March 08, 2013, 02:56:00 AM
I actually want to see the block size limit removed, Bitcoin to scale up, and after that sort of thing is done SatoshiDice type sites won't be as much of an issue anymore. I think Gavin feels the same way, as does sipa. Not sure how Matt feels.
@Mike: for the sake of informed discussion here, would you please briefly explain the economics of fees in the scenario you are proposing? What is the incentive for payers to include fees, and for miners to keep mining?

Payers have no incentive to ever include any fees, including today, because they are not the ones who actually care about double spending risk. After all, you know you're trustworthy, right?

It's actually the recipient that cares about confirmation. And recipients have many ways to incentivize mining. For example, via network assurance contracts, which I have proposed many times in various other discussions. If you see mining as a public good then assurance contracts are a method that's been both widely theoretically studied and implemented in practice (most obviously kickstarter, other examples are around too).

There is also the rather obvious and oft-overlooked fact that mining generates waste heat, and there are lots of people/places that actually need heat. Because mining hardware is small, portable and scalable, if you're already heating something with electrical resistance it may make sense to use mining ASICs instead and at that point you don't really care about the cost. You still need a full node or a pool to take part but I think that'll be easy to run even at high traffic levels.

Seriously Mike? People will use miners for heat? Man for a smart engineer you sure say some pretty stupid things.
358  Bitcoin / Mining / Re: Soft block size limit reached, action required by YOU on: March 08, 2013, 02:54:49 AM
Readers are urged to consider that the following two positions of Satoshi are potentially mutually exclusive:

  • Fees will support the system, long term
  • Block size may be increased in the future

Right now, the block reward subsidy supports the entire system, so it is difficult to draw any conclusions about a fee-supported future -- and yet that is what we are being asked to do.

At the two extremes...

If the block size strategy is too loose (too big), there is no incentive to curb spam, there are not enough fees.

If the block size strategy is too tight (too small), fees are very high, in-blockchain traffic is discouraged, possibly users are discouraged away from bitcoin.

The open question is...
how to pick the best number?
or, how to enable a market to pick the best number?
or, how to pick an algorithm that picks the best number?

The fee/block-size balance is a crucial balance that must be maintained for the health of the system.  There is little evidence that Satoshi put much thought into this, probably supposing that the market would figure out the answer.



There is no such thing as the best number, it's impossible to know without knowing how much bitcoins would be worth in the future and how much mining costs would be in terms of those future bitcoins. But I added emphasis to your post because you yourself already answered the question you pose in the end! Right now the subsidy + a bit of fees support the security. Why not make that permanent? Why not simply require fees == 50 - subsidy before the block size can be raised by double? And if fees drop bellow say fees < ( 50 - subsidy ) / 2 the block size gets halved to min 1Mb.

This way eventually when the subsidy runs out fees would need to equal 50BTC (how ever much those would be worth) before the block size could be raised and the market would then take these 50BTC and find a balance between adequate security and mining costs in the form of more users == more fees == more security and more block size, or reverse, less users == less fees == less security and less block size.
359  Economy / Web Wallets / Re: Blockchain.info - Bitcoin Block explorer & Currency Statistics on: March 07, 2013, 02:32:41 PM
I'd like to report a bug with the android app, when sending bitcoins.. there's no way to specify the fee.
360  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin scaling - which metrics are useful indicators for growth? on: March 07, 2013, 01:46:07 PM
Here are some goods stats: http://thegenerallifeblog.blogspot.com/2013/02/how-popular-is-bitcoin.html
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