#kokojie
So did you think the PoW system ( at the moment) is an error ? Which is the better algorithm for you ?
It is not an error, but just a system that is behind the times. Would you be still using VHS tapes, when netflix streaming is available? If Bitcoin switch to PoS system, all its rules and function will still be the same, just that it will no longer expend $500 million USD in value every year, to pay miners/pools/hardware vendors/electricity companies. All that money will stay in the Bitcoin eco-system, for the benefit of the eco-system. Your thinking is correct , but if the bitcoin will lose the PoW part I think it will lose all its (actual) "price" and ( I don't hope this) its value il drop to $ 100/150. This will be an hard fork and I think not all the users/miners will accept this fork. Don't kid yourself, Bitcoin development is very much centralized, the users will accept whatever client distributed by Gavin Andressen, just like they will accept the upcoming block size hard fork, without realizing there are better solutions available to solve the problem. |
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I think you are confused, PoS is just another way to secure the network, there's basically no difference from how PoW secure the network, except PoS uses stake instead of ASIC, and stake doesn't expend resources, that's all.
Thinking the bigger picture, making network secure is just a technical annoyance we need to deal with. The perceived fairness of money creation & distribution is many times more important. Similarly, nowadays even though rich people can invest in gold mines to acquire more gold, mining gold is still considered much more honest than printing paper dollars by most people. Again, you are confused if you think PoW distribution is fair, and PoS must be unfair. I admit PoW distribution is "easy", but it might not be fair. PoS distribution requires more thought and design, but a properly designed distribution can be made more "fair" than a PoW distribution. |
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pools/miners/asic hardware vendor are not outside the bitcoin ecosystem in my eyes, they are part of it.
on point, with out any of the pools/miners/ hardware ext there will not be any bit coins! Incorrect, PoS system are perfectly functional in securing the network, processing transactions and producing currency supply, there is nothing PoW can do that PoS can't do better. |
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It sounds like you are just saying that the $500 million figure is roughly the current value of coins mined in one year and that miners will spend an amount slightly less then that on mining. However, there is no explanation on why you keep saying this money is "leaving the Bitcoin eco-system". Are you trying to say that if Bitcoin used POS, then this $500 million would instead be used to purchase coins?
Just tell me, if not the Bitcoin eco-system, who is paying for miner profit, pool fee, asic hardware cost/profit, electricity? are these money not leaving the eco-system? I'm pretty sure they are sitting in the bank accounts of the above, and not benefiting the eco-system. and Yes, I am saying these money that are used to pay the above, will be instead used for the benefit of the Bitcoin eco-system. |
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#kokojie
So did you think the PoW system ( at the moment) is an error ? Which is the better algorithm for you ?
It is not an error, but just a system that is behind the times. Would you be still using VHS tapes, when netflix streaming is available? If Bitcoin switch to PoS system, all its rules and function will still be the same, just that it will no longer expend $500 million USD in value every year, to pay miners/pools/hardware vendors/electricity companies. All that money will stay in the Bitcoin eco-system, for the benefit of the eco-system. |
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They are an unnecessary and damaging part of the community. They extract value from cryptocurrency eco-systems and transfer them to pools/hardware vendor/electric company.
PoS eco-systems has proven that PoW mining is not needed.
I've been thinking about PoS, just couldn't figure out the difference between PoS and a would-be digital dollar issued by the Fed. I think you are confused, PoS is just another way to secure the network, there's basically no difference from how PoW secure the network, except PoS uses stake instead of ASIC, and stake doesn't expend resources, that's all. All other rules of cryptocurrency still applies, Bitcoin's rules will still be exactly the same if switched to a PoS system. |
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LOL basic economics fail OP. POW mining is exactly what gives bitcoin its value. Miners have to expend real resources and fiat (or other value) to buy mining equipment and to run it, which they won't do unless they and other miners value those costs as lower than the amount of bitcoins they mine with them. POW mining sets a base value for bitcoin. That money you think "leaves the ecosystem" doesn't leave, it *sets the price*.
Not really true. The same thing is said of gold miners, in that the "set the price of gold" and that "gold can never fall below the costs of mining it", but time and again this 'rule' is violated. The OP has it right. I think he's probably a miner shill, these people don't care about Bitcoin eco-system, they care only about profits. They even dare to claim their useless PoW mining give Bitcoin value. Saying Bitcoin derive value from useless PoW mining, is an insult to Satoshi Nakamoto, the developers that contributed to Bitcoin, and the Bitcoin community. |
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Now a days getting 500 is quite hard then 5000 looks like a dream.
That is because any new money is basically transferred to pay pools/asic hardware/electricity company, barely any is left to benefit the Bitcoin eco-system. If we end PoW mining today, there would be $500 million new money annually available purely for the benefit of Bitcoin eco-system, how do you think that will affect the price? |
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pools/miners/asic hardware vendor are not outside the bitcoin ecosystem in my eyes, they are part of it.
They are not, they are part of a SHA512 mining eco-system. For example, were the scrypt miners part of the Litecoin eco-system? or Dogecoin eco-system? As shown by the scrypt mining scene, the miners only care about profits (or we could call it extracting value out of an eco-system), the most popular pools are the "auto-switch" pools, they will mine ANY coin that is profitable. Due to the lack of viable SHA512 altcoins (ironically, this is due to PoW mining being so insecure, any SHA512 altcoin is easily attacked by the massive amount of ASIC available), the SHA512 miners mostly mine Bitcoin, but that does NOT make them part of the Bitcoin eco-system. They will switch to ANY profitable SHA512 eco-system, as long as they could extract value out of it. If mining Peercoin was more profitable than Bitcoin today, you can be pretty sure majority of miners will switch to mining peercoin. Nevertheless, mining community is part of the cryptocurrency community, every dollar they invested in equipment purchasing or electricity power is a dollar invested in cryptocurrency ecosystem. Bitcoin happens to be the biggest part of this ecosystem. Whether the miners eventually "cash out" by selling the mined coins is a different issue, because same argument can be made to speculators and hodlers. They are an unnecessary and damaging part of the community. They extract value from cryptocurrency eco-systems and transfer them to pools/hardware vendor/electric company. PoS eco-systems has proven that PoW mining is not needed. |
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Of course not, that is just a transaction in Bitcoin.
PoW mining on the other hand, by nature will transfer value out of an eco-system. They use hash rate to process transactions, and obtain transaction fee (and possibly
new coins), then they sell these back to the eco-system. So basically, the eco-system is paying a fee for them to process transactions, and also possibly create new coins.
Then the miners use these fee to buy hardware, pay electricity bill, pay pool fee etc... These are money permanently transferred out of the eco-system.
What if they sell to the 'new' people (outside the "eco-system" whatever that is)? Or if they sell to existing bitcoinholders who then sell back 'outside'? Why did you assume that entire $500m is paid by eco-system? That would only be true assuming that bitcoin doesn't expand at all. It's the same whether they sell to new people, or existing Bitcoin holders. Just think about it, if PoW mining expense didn't exist, then the new money would be entirely benefiting the eco-system , instead of of paying the miners/pools/hardware vendors/electricity company, and barely any left to benefit the eco-system. |
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LOL basic economics fail OP. POW mining is exactly what gives bitcoin its value. Miners have to expend real resources and fiat (or other value) to buy mining equipment and to run it, which they won't do unless they and other miners value those costs as lower than the amount of bitcoins they mine with them. POW mining sets a base value for bitcoin. That money you think "leaves the ecosystem" doesn't leave, it *sets the price*.
This argument has been debunked numerous times, I can't believe there are people still using it. There are many PoS eco-systems, just look at coinmarketcap.com. They have ZERO PoW, how come they have millions of dollars in value in their eco-system? Bitcoin's value does NOT derive from useless PoW mining, that's ridiculous. If your theory were true, then if I create any altcoin, and put massive amount of ASIC mining it, then it should also have a matching value? Saying Bitcoin purely derive value from useless PoW mining, is an insult to Satoshi Nakamoto, the developers that contributed to Bitcoin, and the Bitcoin community. |
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No mining incentive; no miners; no network security; no bitcoin.
OP doesn't understand how this technology works.
No, you don't understand there are superior functioning alternatives available. |
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PoW mining currently transfers $500 million USD worth of wealth out of the Bitcoin eco-system, into the pockets of pools/miners/asic hardware vendor/electricity company.
What do you mean? If person A sells BTC to person B, are the money (USD) coming in or out the "bitcoin eco-system"? Of course not, that is just a transaction in Bitcoin. PoW mining on the other hand, by nature will transfer value out of an eco-system. They use hash rate to process transactions, and obtain transaction fee (and possibly new coins), then they sell these back to the eco-system. So basically, the eco-system is paying a fee for them to process transactions, and also possibly create new coins. Then the miners use these fee to buy hardware, pay electricity bill, pay pool fee etc... These are money permanently transferred out of the eco-system. |
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Can you elaborate on your $500 million figure? How is it derived, what assumptions are used, ect...
This is a very well known figure from previous discussions here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=770591.msg8690432#msg8690432It's basically a function of Bitcoin marketcap, the PoW mining expense is roughly maintained at 10% Bitcoin marketcap at annualized rate. This is why I call it charging Bitcoin holders a 10% tax |
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pools/miners/asic hardware vendor are not outside the bitcoin ecosystem in my eyes, they are part of it.
They are not, they are part of a SHA512 mining eco-system. For example, were the scrypt miners part of the Litecoin eco-system? or Dogecoin eco-system? As shown by the scrypt mining scene, the miners only care about profits (or we could call it extracting value out of an eco-system), the most popular pools are the "auto-switch" pools, they will mine ANY coin that is profitable. Due to the lack of viable SHA512 altcoins (ironically, this is due to PoW mining being so insecure, any SHA512 altcoin is easily attacked by the massive amount of ASIC available), the SHA512 miners mostly mine Bitcoin, but that does NOT make them part of the Bitcoin eco-system. They will switch to ANY profitable SHA512 eco-system, as long as they could extract value out of it. If mining Peercoin was more profitable than Bitcoin today, you can be pretty sure majority of miners will switch to mining peercoin. |
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PoW mining currently transfers $500 million USD worth of wealth out of the Bitcoin eco-system, into the pockets of pools/miners/asic hardware vendor/electricity company.
This wealth transfer will go on, perpetually, as long as PoW mining exists. Because, as long as Bitcoin relies on PoW mining to secure the network, the expense will exist, and it can
not be cheap (otherwise attack on the network will be cheap and easy too).
In order for Bitcoin price to rise, there has to be at least more than $500 million of new money to enter the eco-system, every year, just to maintain the current price.
All Bitcoin holders are essentially charged a 10% tax per year, perpetually, by the PoW mining network. How can this be sustainable?
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I highly doubt 7 million dropbox is hacked, that's like at least 7 million GB of data, maybe more. Good luck to the hackers downloading all that.
I don't think everybody has a GB data on their account. And doesn't the hack means compromise of Password and Username. The hacker don't have to download all the data. But only the once that seems important.. Who has time to go through 7 million accounts and determine which files are important. And they have to do this before dropbox discover the hack and force reset all accounts. Sure there are people doesn't have 1GB of data on their account (but they have at least some data). Then there are heavy users like my company, who has 100GB+ data, 200k+ files on the account, so it balances out. |
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How can they talk about democracy when a handful of people demonstrate and the majority just don't care.
This is disguised replacement of concept. please look at the photo above about berlin wall fall, I don't think the majority people of east berlin all showed up in the demonstration. but it was still Democratic revolution against east Germany Communist government. See for yourself:  |
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I highly doubt 7 million dropbox is hacked, that's like at least 7 million GB of data, maybe more. Good luck to the hackers downloading all that.
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Your TOR session was attacked by malicious exit nodes using "Man in the middle" attack. Always make sure you are using HTTPS with valid certificate, or just don't use TOR for something financial related, use a private VPN/SSH tunnel for this.
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