The cost to 51% attack Bitcoin is roughly 10% of Bitcoin marketcap, or around $500-$600 million, this is enough to buy more than enough hardware to vastly outnumber the current miners, agreed?
if you invest $600M and have 51% then your chance to double spend is low. You could do better to mine bitcoins. :-) How do you want to get 1 500 000 BTC (@ $400 each), to cover your $600M investment ? (I do not mention cost of eletricity, to keep your business running) Why does their need to be a economic incentive to attack? if it is cheap and easy enough, someone will do it and just to say "I did it" or because they don't like Bitcoin, the cost is not very big for a determined and very well funded attacker, such as nation governments and large banks. On the other hand, if Bitcoin was PoS, the cost is pretty much astronomical, and success is not guaranteed even after spending astronomical amount of resources, since not all coins are for sale for ideological reasons, they wouldn't even want to attempt it. |
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It's not so much an inflation, but an expense as result of PoW mining, everyday $1.5M is transferred from the Bitcoin eco-system, into the pockets of ASIC hardware vendors and electricity companies.
I disagree: mining difficulty follows the price, not the other way around. If miners start to find it unprofitable, the hash-rate will drop. Less efficient miners drop first. POW is important because it requires an attacker to expend scarce resources: something POS based currencies do not. The problem with POW is that we still do not know for certain it will work in the long-term. Bitcoin is still very much an experiment. Wrong, it's extremely easy and cheap to attack PoW network, tons of PoW altcoin has been attacked to death. Zero successful 51% attack on any PoS altcoin so far. Because: 1. it's extremely expensive to acquire 51% stake 2. once you acquire 51% stake, why would you attack anymore? YOU are the majority stake holder, you want to attack yourself? and destroy the reputation and value of the coin you hold 51% stake in? why would you destroy your own wealth? it won't make any sense. Quite a bit of twisting of facts. It's as "easy and cheap" to attack a PoW network as the cost of specialized hardware and electricity that goes into securing it. For alts, that's a real problem, agreed. For Bitcoin, this risk is becoming more and more hypothetical. There are numerous reasons to prefer PoW over PoS, but I'm going to guess it'll be pointless to have this argument now. Preferring one or the other is a major point of divergent opinions, as far as I can tell. The cost to 51% attack Bitcoin is roughly 10% of Bitcoin marketcap, or around $500-$600 million, this is enough to buy more than enough hardware to vastly outnumber the current miners, agreed? Now if Bitcoin is proof of stake, you need to buy 51% of all Bitcoin available. It's not going to cost you 10%, nor 100%, but more like 1000% or more of Bitcoin marketcap to purchase 51% of all Bitcoin available. So how can you argue that compared to PoS, PoW is not cheap and easy to attack? There's no real difference between Bitcoin and PoW altcoins, other than Bitcoin is far bigger. But still, if the attacker has large enough resources, he could attack Bitcoin. Just like current miners find it real cheap and easy to attack a smaller PoW altcoin. It's at least 100X more difficult to attack Bitcoin if Bitcoin was PoS, just like no one could attack even a tiny PoS altcoin, due to cost. |
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Wrong, it's extremely easy and cheap to attack PoW network, tons of PoW altcoin has been attacked to death.
Zero successful 51% attack on any PoS altcoin so far.
The 51% attack does not work on PoS coins because they are centralized. They use aggressive check-pointing. They also can not be "forged" securely (to an off-line wallet) since you need to keep the private key in memory (of a network-connected machine) to prove "stake". Most famously, Vericoin (NxT) was rolled back after the Mintpal hack. (Another article talks about how Vericoin was not rolled back after BETR was compromised: paying ransom instead). Again, WRONG. All PoW has checkpointing, including Bitcoin, because it's so easy to attack a PoW network. Most pure PoS coin does not have checkpointing, because it's not needed. Peercoin is fading out checkpointing since the PoS portion has taken over the network now. Vericoin roll back is due to hacking, not because of failure of PoS system, so what's the problem? if someone hacked 50% of all Bitcoin available, you can be pretty sure Bitcoin is going to hard fork and rollback the attacker's address too, otherwise the eco-system will fail. Or do you think if someone stole 50% of all USD available, the US government is just going to let it slide? |
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It's not so much an inflation, but an expense as result of PoW mining, everyday $1.5M is transferred from the Bitcoin eco-system, into the pockets of ASIC hardware vendors and electricity companies.
I disagree: mining difficulty follows the price, not the other way around. If miners start to find it unprofitable, the hash-rate will drop. Less efficient miners drop first. POW is important because it requires an attacker to expend scarce resources: something POS based currencies do not. The problem with POW is that we still do not know for certain it will work in the long-term. Bitcoin is still very much an experiment. Wrong, it's extremely easy and cheap to attack PoW network, tons of PoW altcoin has been attacked to death. Zero successful 51% attack on any PoS altcoin so far. Because: 1. it's extremely expensive to acquire 51% stake 2. once you acquire 51% stake, why would you attack anymore? YOU are the majority stake holder, you want to attack yourself? and destroy the reputation and value of the coin you hold 51% stake in? why would you destroy your own wealth? it won't make any sense. |
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That is a slow slide. It happened after the June 2011 crash. I had like a year to buy in at $3--$5 (and failed to).
The reason is inflation. 25BTC are created every 10 minutes or so. At $450/coin, the works out to $1.62Million/day (25BTC/block*6blocks/hour*24hours/day*$450/BTC) that must be invested every day to keep the price up.
If that investment does not happen, the price falls. The block reward with halve again within about 2 years. I think by then Bitcoin will likely have a value of $5000/coin or more.
It's not so much an inflation, but an expense as result of PoW mining, everyday $1.5M is transferred from the Bitcoin eco-system, into the pockets of ASIC hardware vendors and electricity companies. Therefore, Bitcoin needs bigger and better news all the time, to bring in more than $1.5M new money per day and prop up the price, which the paypal news did for us, for a short time. Then once the news fades, we are back to slowly bleeding money until the next news hits, hopefully it'd be big enough to make the price go up. |
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网上看到一位火币网的客户回复：
本人也多提了你们10个btc，并且不还，你们撕毁联合声明时想用户了，请以法律方式解决问题。不要再打骚扰电话了
不要為你所犯盜竊罪找借口 別人往你的賬戶多轉了一萬元，你就可以因為對方卑鄙無恥為由就可以強佔別人的金錢，很佩服這位犯罪嫌疑人 這麼不滿火幣為何還在那交易？現在偷了人家的幣就以這所謂的理由來掩飾自己貪婪。作了這麼無恥的事情還沾沾自喜，上網來曬無恥，真是無恥無下限？火幣報警的話，你就是盜竊犯罪嫌疑人，真是法盲！ 对，非法侵占罪妥妥的，5年徒刑。 |
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I'm surprised people paid back already 8800BTC, not sure if people would do the same if BTC-E over-paid users 100BTC as they don't require any personal verification.
Some user refuse to return the coins and ask HUOBI to take legal actions to get the coins back. If they don't return it, then they have broken the law. There are many previous cases in China, where bank ATM gave large amount of extra money, and the person refused to return, then were arrested and sentenced to 5-20 years in prison. It won't be pretty if huobi decides to go the legal route and report these users to police, especially since huobi knows there real identity. |
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It's not important that you "work your butt off", what's important is how much value have you created with your work. If you haven't created value, then you can "work your butt off" all you want, and you'd still be poor. Only 30% billionaires inherited their wealth, the rest had to also earn it, by creating large amount of value.
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Though the online e-commerce pioneer stopped short of integrating bitcoin into its digital wallet or payment processing services directly, the move marks PayPal’s first formal offering to the bitcoin community. Ugh, just goddamn implement it already. In a blog post penned by senior director of corporate strategy Scott Ellison, PayPal revealed that online merchants will now be able to accept bitcoin via all three companies through its PayPal Payments Hub, its product that enables its customers to accept credit card, mobile carrier payments and other payment methods through a single integration. What the hell is it's PayPal Payments Hub; never heard of it. Why can't they just add it to PP and be their own payment processor. This is what we really need so people can spend btc anywhere that accepts PP. It's a aggregate service for accepting payments with alternative payment methods, and also it's for buying digital goods only. |
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We'll have to see if this finally delivers a consistent bump in the price. We've been having good news for a while now and the price keeps stagnating.
Depends on how big is the news, since Bitcoin spend $1.5M per day in mining expense, the news has to bring in more than $1.5M daily capital inflow into the Bitcoin eco-system, in order for price to go up. |
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I have been thinking about this and my arguments have been focused on the strengths of PoW vs PoS/DPoS alone and not analyzing the possible benefits of a PoW/PoS bitcoin as a way to possibly reduce waste and increase security(Like Peercoin but with a higher hashing difficulty) . This would not be with the intention of removing PoW but for strengthening it.
I would imagine Miners would need to be incentivized by given a percentage vote based upon their hashing power(instead of stake) as not to simply introduce a hardfork that would reduce their incentives overnight.
Additionally, with adding a different type of security to bitcoin we could accomplish some much needed goals like:
1) Could PoS be introduced to moderate the use of electricity?
People would have the option of investing in Asics directly for block reward/transaction fees or buy bitcoins directly for a stake in transaction fees thus the arms race would be slowed down a bit.
2) Could PoS be introduced to increase transaction confirmation time?
Perhaps confirmations could be a mix of quick PoS node votes and 10 min average PoW confirmations... accomplishing this technical feet may be tricky but doable. I imagine we could slowly introduce this as a sidechain/treechain where people could test it first before integrating it completely.
3) Increase the amount of full nodes?
Perhaps, PoS rewards would simply be bitcoin confirmation fees that miners would share with any full node regardless of how many coins they have.... maybe this should be called PoW/PoN(ode) instead? We would need to have a minimum stake size to prevent a botnet being created cheaply of nodes to flood fake confirmations before the first PoW confirmation around 10 min appeared.
4) Could PoS be introduced to encourage/incentivize miners to use p2p pools instead of centralized pools?
Miners could only get the PoS or PoN reward if they solo mined or mined in a p2p pool thus encouraging decentralization.
The more I think of it incorporating PoS could actually fix a lot of weaknesses in Bitcoin. I understand that PoS advocates don't find PoW to be of any value, but you guys need to realized that there are already too many vested interests in PoW despite who is right and getting people to completely give up PoW is going to be challenging if not impossible. The best you could hope for is incentivizing miners with a PoS/PoW hybrid approach as discussed above. If miners are incentivized and this hardfork is packaged in a way that everyone benefits greatly It may have a slight chance of happening.
The whole voting process with DPoS is merely an unnecessary act of supererogation where the real goals aren't about creating a popularity contest, rather to develop methods of securing the network better through decentralization. If there is going to be a hardfork in bitcoin I want 100k "delegates"(nodes) not 100.
This is a great post, a good framework for change and a step in the right direction if implemented. |
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How are you guys going to deal with scammers on both sides? Cryptothrift has escrow, so the scammers just convince people to go outside it.
Escrow is not scam-proof. Scammers have a lot of imagination. but it helps tremendously, silkroad's escrow has resulted in a 97% reduction in fraud compared to non-escrow transaction. |
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This is why there has been exact ZERO successful 51% attack on any PoS alt coin Vericoin forked because someone stole 20-30% (dont remember the exact ammount) of the coin supply from mintpal, after staking the coins they would be able do attacks. This could easily happen, even PoS coins are horded at exchanges and NOT staked because people are trading them, not staking them. uh that is still not an example of successful 51% attack. If someone stole 30% of total Bitcoin from an exchange, I would think Bitcoin will hardfork and block the thief's address too. Otherwise the eco-system will probably fail. |
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I don't think BTC/$ will fall a lot below $400 simply because miners will stop selling coins below cost of production. Miners currently provide large percentage of the bitcoins sold on exchanges.
I don't understand this logic, so they will stop selling and pay their electricity cost out of pocket? which will end up costing them more money out of pocket. No, they will sell Bitcoin at any market price to get at least something back to pay for their hardware and electricity. If anything, dropping price will prompt them to sell even more if they have hoarded some coins, so they could afford to pay their bills. PoW mining expense is the reason the price is dropping. |
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POS is not as secure
POS does not spread wealth, it simply makes those that hoard coins richer.
POS is only good for exchanges and the pre-mined coin creators, not average joe.
exchanges are taking fat slices of the POS pie because most people are putting their coins into exchanges cold stores lol it makes me laugh how people blindly believe a altcoin creators story of fairness while they secretly are making the profit and leaving sheeple holding the altcoin bag of crap
POS is not as secure? Zero successful 51% attack on any PoS altcoin, while probably hundreds of PoW altcoin has been attacked, even sizable ones like Dogecoin. POS does not spread wealth, it simply makes those that hoard coins richer? I don't even know what this means, for example you think 1% annual reward on PoS mining with Peercoin is going to make you rich? the tiny PoS reward is not going to be the sole reason for someone to hoard stake. It's something that is "nice to have" when you already own some stake, and want to help secure the network. POS is only good for exchanges and the pre-mined coin creators, not average joe?Even if exchange is minting, they could just distribute the PoS reward to their customers as interest on balance, like BTER already does this. Also, since Bitcoin already distributed most of the coin supply, there's no concern for "pre-mine", is there? |
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Anybody care to elaborate why?
Due to $1.5M PoW mining expense every single day, Bitcoin price will naturally drop when there's less than $1.5M capital inflow into the eco-system per day. Bitcoin owners are basically charged a 10% tax by PoW mining network every single year, unless there's capital inflow to subsidize this tax. So far, Bitcoin owners has been very lucky, since in the past there indeed was huge amount of capital inflow to make the PoW mining expense seem insignificant. But this year might be the first time Bitcoin owners is feeling the expense of PoW mining. |
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429$ is really bad, it should be 600$ at least.
damn miners dump 3600 BTC a day (1.5M bucks). No wonder price drops I think this is a good time to sell, because BTC might go back to 100-200$'s I'm not talking about this particular time. Its just POW doesn't alow BTC to grow since bitcoin market bleeds for 1.5M bucks a day This here, is the reason why Bitcoin price is dropping. Because without new inflow of capital, the $1.5M daily PoW expense will drop the price, perpetually. Only having a capital inflow greater than $1.5M per day, will stop the price drop. We have had big capital inflow last year, and price rose. Now the capital inflow stopped, and price is dropping. This $1.5M daily PoW expense is unnecessary, since much of the coin supply has been distributed. Time to fade out PoW and embrace the energy efficient PoS system. |
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No it indicates that there are no dust transactions, because of the 0.01 transaction fee  Not really, since PoS minting can generate a lot of transactions without fees. PPC actually uses a different algorithm for storing the blockchain. I don't know about the technical details, but Sunny King worked some magic into it. The PPC wallet also has some magical compression, I have several thousand transactions in my PPC wallet (mostly from PoS minting), and it's 302KB. I have 500 transactions in my Bitcoin wallet, and it became huge, over 10 megabytes, and takes a while to load. |
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I don't see how hacking one delegate can lead to all other delegate being hacked, since I am actually one of Bitshares 101 delegates, and I have no information regarding other delegates, they are all anonymous to me.
I can almost guarantee that likely delegates are found here: http://bitshares.org/community/team/and than other delegates can be found by prominent users here: https://bitsharestalk.org/ and Here https://www.reddit.com/r/BitSharesHumans being social creatures are easily compromised with social engineering and than that can be leveraged by impersonating other prominent members. uh hate to break it to you, even if you convince me you are Satoshi Nakamoto, I ain't giving you my wallet password or access to my PC dude. lol |
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if everyone turns off mining how'll we get confirmations on transactions?  maybe small asic owners should turn off but not all of them Maybe my wording gave the wrong impression, I'm actually in favor of a slowly fading out PoW, in the timespan of a year or more. My wording was chosen to create a sense of urgency, but the actual implementation should be a slow process. This means Bitcoin will have a hybrid mining network, where the PoS portion will slowly take over, giving PoW miners time to adjust and formulate their exit strategy. |
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