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821  Economy / Securities / Re: [LABCOIN] IPO [BTCT.CO] - Details/FAQ and Discussion (ASIC dev/sales/mining) on: August 14, 2013, 03:02:40 PM


Excellent. If they meet their 10% of the Network goal then it's an excellent investment even if they don't manage to sell any miners. I'm just worried about the difficulty rising exponentially just as everyone else is but if they manage to last for 6 months they'll probably be able to secure a strong 10% of the network hashrate. I don't see any of these others competing with them.

Unlike most investors I'm interested in companies that can last for the long term, such as in years. The collapse of btcgarden did not extend us confidence.
822  Economy / Securities / Re: [LABCOIN] IPO [BTCT.CO] - Details/FAQ and Discussion (ASIC dev/sales/mining) on: August 14, 2013, 11:53:16 AM
Everything is not fine if they only have 1% of the network. It would mean a very long ROI

What a strange thing to say. No it wouldn't.

A little run down of the math:
Labcoin consists of 10m shares. If we have 1% of the network, that means each share gets 1 ten-millionth of 1% of 25 bitcoins every 10 minutes (actually even more since blocks are found faster than that).
That's 0.009198 btc per year. Going by IPO price of 0.001 per share, that's 91.89% APR. That's exceptional compared to all other mining stocks (AM has what, 20-25% now?). And it's still excluding all possible hardware sales.

But we might not have a year. That is why I said ROI when considering the risks at 1% is quite low. Labcoin would prove itself not to be a scam but it's not enough to say we don't face high risks.

91.89% APR is better than Asicminer that is true but with Asicminer we have reason to believe it will be around for a while and with Labcoin there is a lot more uncertainty. I'm not one of the person who think Labcoin is a scam but I don't know whether or not it will weather the market conditions and other factors to be around for years either. If it can last for years then 91.89% APR is very good.
823  Economy / Securities / Re: [LABCOIN] IPO [BTCT.CO] - Details/FAQ and Discussion (ASIC dev/sales/mining) on: August 14, 2013, 11:50:22 AM
Everything is not fine if they only have 1% of the network. It would mean a very long ROI

What a strange thing to say. No it wouldn't.

A little run down of the math:
Labcoin consists of 10m shares. If we have 1% of the network, that means each share gets 1 ten-millionth of 1% of 25 bitcoins every 10 minutes (actually even more since blocks are found faster than that).
That's 0.009198 btc per year. Going by IPO price of 0.001 per share, that's 91.89% APR. That's exceptional compared to all other mining stocks (AM has what, 20-25% now?). And it's still excluding all possible hardware sales.


Far more important than that, a 1% share would mean most of the risk of the stock was removed.  The company would be proved to be real and to be competent.

The share price would have skyrocketed by then.  It's so low at the moment only because so much is unknown.  As the unknowns become knowns, the price increases.

So yeah, 1% would be fine in my book.

1% means it's not a scam and stock prices might go up but thats not competitive long term with AM or any of the other companies out there.

ROI would be high but you're talking about over a years time. How do we know any of this will last for the whole year?
824  Economy / Securities / Re: [LABCOIN] IPO [BTCT.CO] - Details/FAQ and Discussion (ASIC dev/sales/mining) on: August 14, 2013, 02:31:43 AM
The prices and quantities of chips that Labcoin plans to order and deploy makes it very reasonable to hold 15% or more of the network hash rate at least on a medium time scale (through spring at least using Gen 1) but of course there is always the possibility that the landscape changes.

Important to remember here is that while 28nm is sexy, the Labcoin chip, while not as effective power wise is so cheap to manufacture at volume that the team expects to be able to fund 50TH+ using not even all the IPO funds. That can as far as I know not be said about any other project.

Well, those 50TH/s will not make make 10% of the network by the time they are deployed, or even 15%. They would barely make 15% if they got deployed completely right now.

But that doesn't really matter. If labcoin only manages to hold ONE percent of the network, then the current share price is nothing else than cheap as fuck.
Which is why I think this will turn out to be a great investment. If they don't completely fail, and even just manage to hold a very small percentage, then everything is fine.
The more they get, the better, but as long as they get something, then there's nothing to worry about.

Everything is not fine if they only have 1% of the network. It would mean a very long ROI and many people would go elsewhere which means share prices would suffer for investors. Also at 1% of the network if they make any mistake at all they wont have much profit to fall back on.

15% is reasonable if they can reach that. If they reach 1% but difficulty is rising exponentially it's very bad because they cannot keep up that way. If they manage to get enough profit to build and deploy a lot of miners then they'll do okay. I think if they get over 500TH before 2014 they'll be just fine but thats just my estimate and it's anyones guess. They also have plenty of people to sell ASICs to, such as all those cloud mining companies.
825  Economy / Securities / Re: [LABCOIN] IPO [BTCT.CO] - Details/FAQ and Discussion (ASIC dev/sales/mining) on: August 13, 2013, 11:51:25 PM
ajk, people freaked when the "site" just went offline and noone heard anything for a few days - that's all

theSwede - i think what set off the latest rumor mill is the site going down- also, strange things that have happened to "competitors"

The labcoin.com website as far as I know is just going through updates and redesign. I will definitely be here to update if anything significant is to be communicated.

Mr. Swede, do you think Labcoin will be able to maintain 15% of the network for the long term with the difficulty growing exponentially and with what looks like an asic hashing cyber arms race?

This is a very important question which you should forward to the staff and developers. If the 15% can be assured despite difficulty, I think everyone will be happy for many months with the possibility of sweet dividends.
826  Economy / Securities / Re: [LABCOIN] IPO [BTCT.CO] - Details/FAQ and Discussion (ASIC dev/sales/mining) on: August 13, 2013, 03:53:47 PM
That really depends on the point of view.

My biggest fear is that they're going to regulate the shit out of bitcoin, making it practically impossible to use legally. And I'm near 100% sure that what we're doing here right now, the whole "bitcoin securities" thing, will be deemed illegal. That's not good, and that's not bullish for bitcoin.

If needed, I think the whole "bitcoin securities" thing will move to a more secure location if it was deemed illegal.  The United States does not rule the world, and if they want to attempt to restrict Bitcoin, or control how it is used, it would be nothing more than a speed bump.

All this is besides the point of Labcoin though, when is the next update scheduled to come out?

It will go decentralized which isn't actually a bad thing. It would be wise of congress to update the crowd funding laws to support cryptocurrency securities so that the industry can grow to it's potential. All it would take is just the stroke of the pen of Obama and some congressmen getting on board.
827  Economy / Securities / Re: [LABCOIN] IPO [BTCT.CO] - Details/FAQ and Discussion (ASIC dev/sales/mining) on: August 13, 2013, 03:46:34 PM

God, I hope every congressman and senator has some bitcoins

This news is very bullish for BTC in general



There is an idea. If you know a congressman or senator in your personal life (remember 6 degrees of separation?) then give them some Bitcoins and personally show them how to use it. Someone here has a dad, uncle, father, mother etc who is politically important or influential.
828  Economy / Securities / Re: [BTCT.CO] [IPO-cancelled] BTCGARDEN MINER---Eyes to the horizon on: August 12, 2013, 11:20:40 AM
1. some other people started some serious dumping action
2. many people sold their shares for a loss to buy back later as a result
c: They are screwed

That is BTCGarden's responsibility because...?


Also there's always a risk when you invest in a company. Especially a bitcoin one. Even moreso when the majority of investors here don't truly understand the world these people operate in because we're westerners.

I am Chinese live in China, I do not understand too.

Force buy back all shares just because one random jerk calling to police, it's ridiculous. Ridiculous even in North Korea.



Maybe it's the triads? There must be organized crime in China...
829  Economy / Securities / Re: Would you invest in a bitcoin company if you could own actual equity? on: August 12, 2013, 01:16:49 AM
That is just bullshit elitism. Who are the non-sophisticated investors? Poor people? Why cap the poor and not cap the rich?
Because of the long history of investment scams.

The Bitcoin world, in a few short years, has already had almost every common investment scam - bucket shops, Ponzi schemes, front-running, big stores, embezzlement of customer funds, and simply taking the money and running. It's embarrassing.

You can't protect everybody from everything. There perhaps should be a certification test or exam to pass in order to remove the cap but it definitely should not be based on net worth or how rich you are. That is just allowing rich people to own more shares just because they are rich and "sophisticated".
830  Economy / Securities / Re: Would you invest in a bitcoin company if you could own actual equity? on: August 11, 2013, 08:11:36 PM
The reason it's capped is that non-sophisticated investors are not sophisticated and the cap prevents them from investing too heavily in something they have probably not fully investigated.  The cap is a good thing and it is raised in the presence of a sophisticated investor.

In my humble opinion.



That is just bullshit elitism. Who are the non-sophisticated investors? Poor people? Why cap the poor and not cap the rich?

NO CAPS.
831  Economy / Securities / Re: Would you invest in a bitcoin company if you could own actual equity? on: August 11, 2013, 07:44:54 PM
Quote
. This exemption would allow use of the internet "funding portals" registered with the government, the use of which in private placements is extremely limited by current law. One of the conditions of this exemption is a yearly aggregate limit on the amount each person may invest in offerings of this type, tiered by the person's net worth or yearly income. The limits are $2,000 or 5% (whichever is greater) for people earning (or worth) up to $100,000, and $100,000 or 10% (whichever is less) for people earning (or worth) $100,000 or more. This exemption is intended to allow a form of crowd funding.[2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumpstart_Our_Business_Startups_Act


It's capped. Why is this law considered good if it gives the government the ability to cap everyone at $2000? $2000 is crazy in how low it is.

This is an area where there can be reforms to update the law and make it better. $2000 is a cap and a very low cap for crowdfunding for an entire year. Also there has to be laws which update to take into account the latest technologies of cryptofinance.
832  Economy / Securities / Re: [LABCOIN] IPO [BTCT.CO] - Details/FAQ and Discussion (ASIC dev/sales/mining) on: August 09, 2013, 05:49:52 PM
You guys are missing the point. I m not going to speculate on whether VBS has ulterior motives or not, as I don't care. It seems clear that he has some good technical knowledge and knows what questions to ask - that's good enough for me and I m glad he's around.
My The problem is LC not answering.
Delicate investors need to sit down and have a modern cocktail Cheesy

Check on the prices in 2-3 months.
833  Economy / Securities / Re: [BTC-TC] BTC Growth: Capital Growth via Hedge Fund-Style Investing on: August 09, 2013, 04:56:10 PM
UPDATED VERSION, 6 August 2013:

My company has applied to list BTC Growth, a hedge fund-style service, on BTC-TC. The canonical version of the document, at around 8500 words, is now available directly from the exchange:

https://btct.co/security/BTC-GROWTH

In the interest of compactness, I have included here just the 'Executive Summary' and 'About the Fund Issuer and Fund Manager' sections. Please refer to the full version of the document for additional details, including risk factors and FAQ.

Any updates to this document will be summarized in the post following this one.

Executive Summary

Operating as a hedge fund-style service to the exchange, the BTC Growth fund aims to achieve capital growth denominated in Bitcoin.

The fund may invest in securities listed on Bitcoin-denominated exchanges, or in unlisted short-term debt of listed or unlisted businesses with demonstrable cashflow. It may construct strategies using derivatives intended to hedge risks associated with these investments or to generate returns in their own right. In exceptional circumstances, the fund may invest privately in unlisted businesses. The fund may provide capital to exchanges, and it may construct positions designed to extract value from volatility in the value of Bitcoin versus other currencies.

The fund's portfolio will be marked to market and its Net Asset Value published approximately once per month. Being exchange traded, no redemption notice is required, and the fund may provide additional redemption and subscription liquidity by placing bids or asks (respectively) at a level between NAV and open market prices.

The fund employs a 'two and twenty' fee structure common to the hedge fund industry, together with a rolling high-water mark tallied on a trailing three-month basis.

Potential participants for whom the full document is in any way 'TL;DR' should not participate in this fund.

About the Fund Issuer and Fund Manager

The fund will be provided as a service to the exchange by Mulhauser Consulting Ltd., a company incorporated in the United Kingdom eleven years ago and which has been in continuous operation ever since.

The fund will be managed by Dr Greg Mulhauser, the company's founder and Managing Director. In other areas of its business, the company works with a team including both volunteers and paid employees and consultants, but for the purposes of this service, fund management will be handled entirely by the Managing Director.

With educational background in mathematics, philosophy, and later in mental health, Dr Mulhauser has worked at the Pentagon, UK universities, and telecommunications giant BT. Originally employed at BT as a research scientist in cognition, complex systems and biologically inspired computation, he was also responsible for curiosities such as the Lattice of Extended Turing-Style Automata, which he designed as a novel computational architecture for implementation with FPGAs in a fashion similar to cellular automata. He later left the Complex Systems Laboratory for business strategy roles and advised on corporate venturing and on derivatives strategies associated with M&A projects. He contributed to the company's Asian portfolio management, assessed flotation and alternative demerger options for its wireless operation, and developed strategy for its £500 million indirect channels business. In 2002, he left a strategic partnering role in security and mobile technology to found his own firm, securing consulting contracts ranging from ground-based air defence systems at Northrop Grumman and the UK Ministry of Defence to internal communication at the UK's national Police IT Organisation (PITO). A British Marshall Scholar and Fellow of the Royal Society of Arts, Mulhauser lives in Devon, England with his wife and daughter.

Additional information about the fund manager specifically regarding his investment background is available from one of the newest sites in the company's portfolio, Psychological Investor:

http://psychologicalinvestor.com/lib/about-founder/

Potential participants can get something of a flavor of the fund manager's general approach to investing from the same site, and a small selection of his recent articles specifically about the Bitcoin economy can be found here:

http://psychologicalinvestor.com/lib/tag/bitcoin/

For further background, the archive section of the Mulhauser Consulting site also includes work on business strategy development and even older research work on topics like algorithmic information theory, computability and recursion theory dating back to the 1990s. (Greg Chaitin, who as a teenager independently invented algorithmic information theory alongside Kolmogorov and Solomonoff, described the fund manager's first book as "One of the first serious applications of algorithmic information theory; fun to read!")

http://mulhauser.net

Posts by the fund manager on the Bitcointalk.org forum can be found here:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=132160;sa=showPosts

As with ordinary hedge funds, in which the General Partner typically invests alongside Limited Partners, the fund manager intends to participate in the fund, helping to ensure alignment between his interests and those of the fund. Note, however, that the General Partner/Limited Partnership model itself is neither desirable nor practical for a fund intended to trade freely on a Bitcoin-denominated exchange.

Note: This document is copyright 2013 by Mulhauser Consulting Ltd., with all rights reserved, and may not be repurposed without written consent.


I like what you're doing. What are you some kind of genius?  Cheesy

You took a lot of harassment early on when you gave your views on the ETF but you also taught me and many other people a lot.

Cheers
834  Economy / Securities / Re: [LABCOIN] IPO [BTCT.CO] - Details/FAQ and Discussion (ASIC dev/sales/mining) on: August 09, 2013, 04:47:38 PM
where are daily videos ?

progress raport, website update, anything

labcoin.com/presentation.html it is not changed...



You fragile investors need to have patience. That is the secret to not losing your money. Set a buy in price and refuse to sell below that price. Set a time limit to wait and see and if the price isn't significantly higher then sell when it reaches the price you bought in at. If you think there are better investment opportunities then sell all your shares right now, dare ya.  Cheesy
835  Economy / Securities / Re: [LABCOIN] IPO [BTCT.CO] - Details/FAQ and Discussion (ASIC dev/sales/mining) on: August 09, 2013, 04:35:10 PM
Shareholders are loosing trust here.
But how did shareholders gain trust before?

Following posts on their research & development, people believed in this project (wrongly or not is to be seen). Hence sold out IPO before its start (some of this *might* have been due to speculation, but still).
Lack of communication on important points make investors uneasy, lose confidence and sell off.

I have the feeling I m stating the obvious here.

Go ahead and sell, cheap shares!  Grin
Cheers
836  Economy / Securities / Re: [LABCOIN] IPO [BTCT.CO] - Details/FAQ and Discussion (ASIC dev/sales/mining) on: August 07, 2013, 02:18:07 PM
Shares are down to .0014. Need some good news to give it a boost.

There is an another IPO which could potentially push it lower if there is a another panic sell off like last week:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=269216.0

30 million shares... not going to launch until November, 0.0014 BTC so over priced as well, and they don't even design their own chips. Why would anyone sell their shares for that?
837  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: MC2 ("Netcoin"): A cryptocurrency based on a hybrid PoW/PoS system on: August 07, 2013, 11:58:14 AM
It's older than Feathercoin and almost all of the new features are unique...  Since publishing various ideas a few have been incorporated into other blockchains, e.g. my memcoin proposal was integrated into YACoin and my random hashing scheme was into quarkcoin, but I'm not really going to directly take credit for any of that.

People assume that the innovation or ideas will stop coming just because some other group rushes to implement it but quality of implementation is everything. Those alt coins were hacked together probably over a period of weeks.

838  Economy / Securities / Re: [LABCOIN] IPO [BTCT.CO] - Details/FAQ and Discussion (ASIC dev/sales/mining) on: August 05, 2013, 06:36:56 AM
$200m should be plenty of money to get on the waiting list for 0.20nm.

But initial costs will be high, seems like it would be much cheaper to simply make 50% more 28nm chips.

I suspect $200m figure might actually be one thing that was taken from the older articles. It just makes no sense, unless they think the price of bitcoin is going to totally explode.

No matter how I look at this, IF the investment is indeed $200 million that is nothing more than a HUGE bet on very fast and sharp increase in Bitcon value.

Why? Because almost no matter the technology used, to actually make a sustainable profit off $200 invested Avalon would have to hold OVER 50% of the network hash rate for a very long time (many years) at current BTC value, a calculation I think no VC would be willing to bet on (Not onto mention the huge risk to the Bitcoin network as a whole).

What this investment really is, is a HUGE bet on increasing BTC value. Nothing else in my opinion. It's someone who wants into BTC on a larger scale then they could reasonably purchase BTC over the open market.

That sharp increase was correlated with the reward halving. It takes 2 years to get 20nm completed and shipped, so it actually does make quite a bit of sense.
839  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Primecoin Mining Rig - Parallela on: August 04, 2013, 03:48:41 PM
With efforts to make a GPU miner for Primecoin floundering (and I am skeptical it would even be more effective than a system with a good 64-bit X86 CPU and fast memory), I was wondering if using Parallela to build a Primecoin mining rig would work well.  It is low power, ideal for CPU intensive tasks, can easily add fast memory to it cheaply and is quiet and compact.  It is also infinitely expandable.

I was thinking of ordering: http://shop.adapteva.com/collections/parallella/products/parallella-cluster-kit
This was a kickstarter project.  Apparently they have already shipped boards to kickstarter contributors and sales to other customers will start in August.  Here is the page describing this project: http://www.adapteva.com/introduction/

It strikes me this would be good for any CPU intensive mining coin and Primecoin may be a great candidate for this.  

Thoughts?

Don't waste your time or money. If you understood the technology you would know that it's not anywhere near powerful enough to be used to mine Primecoins more effectively than a Xenon. Sure you could give it a try but I think it's just not worth the expense for the very marginal gain.
Do you think a Xeon is better than a high end over clocked i7 processor?

With Primecoin it's hard to tell. I would think by design a Xeon is better but we'd have to do a test to find out which one actually generates more primes.
840  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Why do most Bitcoiners seem intelligent? on: August 03, 2013, 10:31:30 AM
When I give a peek to 4chans /pol or reddit, facebook, twitter, pretty much any big community and/or social network people seem to be so ignorant and willing to voice their ignorance whereas in communities such as Bitcointalk (and a couple others which I shall not name) people are able to put together logical arguments, have discussions and view the current events without the glasses with a thick layer of crappy propaganda on them?

Seems that you rarely stumble upon ignorant fools on here.

It depends on where in the forum you go. There are a lot of paranoid conspiracy theorists on this forum.
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