My parents were hard core liberal progressives. I turned to libertarian capitalism as a teenager, due to reading a lot of science fiction. After growing up and actually interacting with the real world this has evolved into libertarian socialism (also known as Anarcho-Syndicalism)
I would be interested in hearing about your transition from AnCap to AnSyn. It's certain to be enlightening. Actually I used to identify as an Anarcho-Capitalist. But since about 2 years, I have dropped that label. Now I consider myself a "Pragmatic Agorist/Voluntaryist", since I no longer see capitalistic businesses or social arrangements as necessarily always the best. I'm perfectly happy with many forms of Voluntary Communism or Syndicalism, provided there is no coercion and all relevant parties consent. I'm curious about that since once of the arguments I read from Anarcho-Capitalists is that Anacho-Syndicalism could exist inside their society, but not the other way around. E.g. Under AC you just need to get a group of people interested, buy the right property and live inside your own commune. It could even trade with outsiders. While if a group of capitalists did this in an AS society, then their production would necessarily have to be taxed and redistributed. If that's true, isn't Anarchocapitalism the best of both worlds? in an Anarchist society of any sort there is no central authority to tax and redistribute production, so the AnCaps would not be taxed and redistributed. in an AnSyn society if people really wished to be exploited by a capitalist they would be free to do so, meanwhile in AnCap society the resources are all already "owned" so formation of a syndicalist commune is not really possible. I don't expect society as a whole to be syndicalist or capitalist in nature, I just hope or it to be Anarchist and allow the capitalists, syndicalists and other sorts to form their own smaler soceities within the larger framework. |
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My parents were hard core liberal progressives. I turned to libertarian capitalism as a teenager, due to reading a lot of science fiction. After growing up and actually interacting with the real world this has evolved into libertarian socialism (also known as Anarcho-Syndicalism)
I would be interested in hearing about your transition from AnCap to AnSyn. It's certain to be enlightening. It's been due partly to interactions with Anarchists, the ones that were actually out there doing things, trying to reshape the world have been mostly AnSyn. Creating Bitcoin being the notable exception (I think Satoshi is an AnCap, not certain about that) A lot of it has also been due to my interactions with bosses. These guys are usually incompetent, and almost always petty tyrants of one sort or another, I can't be in favor of a system where they all own their own little feudal manors and we all bow down to them. I can't imagine that the people would tolerate this. |
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Payment confirmed, thank you.
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The workers are being kept from bargaining collectively by the local governments. If they could bargain collectively (as the company does) then a fair market price could be reached. ...Which is a problem with governments, not sweatshops themselves. Going by the same vein of logic, farming in the mid-early 19th century in the US is evil because the slaves worked on farms, ignoring the fact that government supported slavery is the problem, not farming. Sweatshops are a symptom, and not the root of the problem, that doesn't mean they are ok. Just because diorhea is a symptom of Cholera, and not the root problem doesn't change the fact that it is the Diorhea that will kill you. |
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My parents were hard core liberal progressives. I turned to libertarian capitalism as a teenager, due to reading a lot of science fiction. After growing up and actually interacting with the real world this has evolved into libertarian socialism (also known as Anarcho-Syndicalism)
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Yeah, and I am Zorax, Emperor of Delaxia and ruler of half of the known universe. The reality of the matter is that the sweatshops are necessary - 100% necessary. The only reason we don't have them here anymore is because we outsourced them due to things like evironmental and safety regulations and unions driving up the price of labor (not some magical capitalism fairy). The third-world doesn't have anywhere else to outsource them to, so they're stuck with it forever.
How did environmental/safety regulations and unions have the power to do anything, though? What reason would ANY factory have to open with a population of people unwilling to work at correct market prices? Also, why did those countries gain their middle class before such things existed?Why do I even bother? APPEAL TO TIME PERIOD
APPEAL TO ABSURDITY
CITATION NEEDED
You fancy sexy time at the Time Cube Cabaret. Correct market prices REQUIRE TWO TO TANGO. If one or both parties refuse a price, then IT'S NOT THE CORRECT MARKET PRICE. Assuming price is the only bargaining chip is corporatist fail. Too bad that a sweatshop worker working at a sweatshop, by default, accepts the price of his own labour. If sweatshops are evil because one/both parties refuse a price, then they cannot work because the workers would refuse to work there or the sweatshops wouldn't employ them, meaning that the problem of sweatshops would solve itself, but if the workers accept it then they are accepting the given price/wage therefore it is a correct market price making it is clearly disadvantageous for the workers to have their workplace removed. QED The workers are being kept from bargaining collectively by the local governments. If they could bargain collectively (as the company does) then a fair market price could be reached. |
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And, just to recap the current situation: 1) Jessy was right- stupid people really do run the world, and what they think DOES matter. 2) Bitcoin is dying in front of our eyes because of people naive enough to think reality trumps perception. 3) The papers and politicians ignore our charts, diagrams and white-papers. 4) Lets direct our sniveling, impotent "why don't they understand I'm RIGHT!!!" Asperger rage at Jessy  well yeah, a cute whorish Oriental despot is way more fun to verbally abuse than the people who really don't get it. |
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Emailed issued few minutes ago from the mt.gox Dear Sir or Madam, A few hours ago the Bitcoin trading website Mt Gox has been hacked. Malicious individuals have been able to obtain a database containing usernames, email address and encrypted passwords. This information has been posted publicly on the internet. As a Bitcoin supporter I'm now sending a message to every email address contained in the hacked database. This is to warn you that your username, email address and password have been leaked. I therefore strongly advice you to change your passwords. If you have used the same password on different websites it's highly recommended to change your password on all of your accounts! For a more secure alternative to Mt Gox, the community appears to be moving to TradeHill. So this is no reason to lose faith in Bitcoin itself. It must be seen as a warning that not every website can be trusted with your data however! Their link is http://www.tradehill.com/?r=TH-R15683 (Note: You can remove the Referral Code when registering if you want!) This is certainly not the only website where you can exchange Bitcoins, also check out http://www.thebitcoinlist.com/dp_bitcoin/bitcoin-exchange/Sincerely, A Bitcoin supporter 1CWSjov2N7ix41bZ8bJfHXkdLLbkUsG9Y7 I got that like 10 times. |
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Hoping Mt. Gox doesn't reverse the funds or that they weren't hacked
Bought a metric ton at a cent each
lucky bastard |
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yeah, if anyone would like to help me get some MtGox $ right now I would be forever grateful Wouldn't do you any good, you can't spend them |
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I keep trying to buy, but it wont let me because that huge trade is still happening
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I guess Mt Gox just executed (well currently executing) the largest sell order they've ever had.
MTGox really needs to change the way they display depth of market. It looks like there are no bids whatsoever. I know this is not the case since I have some lower than the market that are not being displayed. |
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I got 5 bitcents at one point. I don't know why.
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I don't think this board was the right place for discussion of silk road...when that conversation mostly involves people buying and selling drugs it is even worse.
I followed the SR threads and never saw anyone talking about buying and selling drugs. You should have reported those posts to a mod. Buying and selling controlled substances is illegal and discussing that here probably violates this site's UA. You cut out relevent portions of my post. I didn't say the discussions of Silk Road here involved buying and selling drugs, I said the discussions on Silk Road involve buying and selling drugs. it tends to over shadow any sort of practical or philosophical discussion of the site. The equivalent here were the constant requests for an invite, but that is not so bad when the discussion is on the regular internet. on TOR you get more 502 errors than connections and having that page that you just reloaded 15 times turn out to be people talking about how good that weed was, when that is not the info you were looking for, is quite frustrating. |
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That AyeYo is letting Atlas get away with claiming sweatshops as a good thing is sad.
Sweatshops are NOT good things. They are not better than the traditional occupations of people in those countries, they are just better than the occupations people are forced into by corrupt government and corporate exploitation stealing their land and the means they use for traditional livelihoods.
Without the government preventing labor organization the labor would be much more expensive because they would demand a living wage, health and safety standards, and so forth.
Except they would have nothing to bargain with (unlike skilled Western workers) because they didn't have the resources to bargain in the first place. To get such resources, they would need to work in the sweatshops and improve from there. Look at the Western world in the industrial revolution. The first factory jobs were pretty terrible because of an excess of labour, but workers in those factories were far better off than those stuck with subsistence farming and eventually they came out of incredible poverty to form the middle class (and, to some degree, the upper class as well). If they "demand" higher wages, higher safety standards, etc the factory owners would more likely than not pack up and leave. After all, the owners would more likely than not be American, and they already have some problems by outsourcing their labour. If it became more expensive, why would they pick the unskilled, uneducated foreign labourers and pay extra costs for outsourcing over regular American or Western workers? Living standards, wages, etc will rise slowly over time until a middle class is firmly established, whereupon outsourcing will cease to be profitable and homegrown industries will pop up to supply the new middle class. Countries like China aren't at that point yet; they don't have much of a middle class, only a massive lower class of factory workers and farmers and a relatively small upper class composed of the rich who live like wealthy Americans. Substinence farming is safer and generally preferable to factory work (depending on the wages offered) the problem is it requires land, which has been taken by the factory owners. American workers did not organize as skilled laborers, they organized as unskilled ones. The factory owners, in most cases, are not American, they are Chinese, or Vietnamese or what have you and they contract with American companies to sell the products produced. Yes, if the workers demand better treatment that may lead those contracts to go elsewhere, in which case the workers may need to eliminate the largest expense, the cut being taken by the owner, at which point they can be competitive again. |
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Hey Everyone,
I am not a bitcoin miner but I do support it and want to invest in hopes of making some extra $$$. I've been watching the bitcoin price rise and drop over the week and I am unsure when to buy. Before I do though, I have a few questions:
1. Where do you see the price of the BTC by 2013? (BTC/USD)
2. Is it stable enough now or could the bitcoin system easily crash and turn into nothing?
3. If you personally had $10,000+ to spare, would you invest it in bitcoins?
4. Is it going to reach $1000/btc eventually or is $15-20 (current price) pretty much the standard price now?
5. When would you buy? Now? In a week? Explain.
Any advice/help/opinion is welcome and thank you in advance!
1. 1BTC/$100 2. I doubt it will crash, but it is possible 3. If that $10,000 were gambling money yes, it's a high risk high return investment currently 4. It shot up in price a whole lot just recently, I wouldn't expect any stability for a while yet. 5. Now, I'd suggest dollar cost averaging, buy a certain amount in dollars each week, that's the safest strategy for a commodity that fluctuates but increases in the long term, which is the behavior bitcoin usually has. |
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Just like happens now.
Are you just arguing that an Anarchist system would be flawed? Because i don't think anyone denied that.
What is your system and how would it lessen these flaws?
That is my point. If force is acceptable (in anything else than self-defense) then we would basically end up in some situation similiar to what we have today. I support an anarchist system and it seems to me property rights would most likely be limited to what you can actually use personally. I don't see people accepting somebody owning land or buildings they practically never use. At least that is my sentinment and that's what I see from movements such as squatters. Though I agree it's hard to say what people would agree on. Of course I also think this point will probably become moot after the 2012 event with the raising of consciousness. Violence and lieing will simply not be possible. I suspect I might be with you then. I'm an Anarcho-Socialist so i don't believe in extensive property rights. |
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What kind of anarchy is it when the group with the most guns tells you what you can do & what you can't do under threat of violence?
Boring one? Also, whether Afghanis have "defeated" every military power throughout history depends on your definition of "defeat". Edit And yes, this thread lends indisputable evidence to the hypothesis that political discussions have to be airgapped from the rest of the project  well, what is happening in this thread would happen a lot more without a political ghetto to stick the debates in. Afghans drove out every major world power. The Romans, The Greeks, the Russians, they are still working on us, but my money is on them. As far as their fairly oppressive social contract that is what they choose, it is not being forced on them by anyone. It may have been forced on them by the Taliban for a while, but that is no longer the case. They have a choice in judges and they tend to choose Taliban because that is line with their social values. |
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