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881  Other / Meta / Economic implications of merits on: October 18, 2018, 08:21:44 PM
So, while thinking thinking about the sMerits I occasionally gain led to thinking how to abuse said merits.

One of the ways would be to offer rewards of merits for meritable post, but atlas, meta is filled with those shitposts already.

However, not many of them have included specific requirements. If I were to offer merits in return of novel ideas or specific information, that would be meritable (as it would be a valuable post to me), I'm not sure how much that's abusing the system, a grey area of rules.

For example, a post; "I'll send over a merit to anyone that fetches me a working liquid hydrogen jet engine".

The problem is, this sort of post would belong in services. However, merit's really not supposed to have an economic implication, so it doesn't really belong in the marketplace.

What are your feelings on this situation or abuse of token?

---

I'm leaving out the fact that I have 0 sMerit, which means if someone could fetch my very specific request, there's no actual guarantee of payment (which is where the trust system comes in).

882  Other / Off-topic / Re: Beggars on the street begging for BTC? on: October 18, 2018, 08:01:46 PM
Interesting concept;

public ledger means I might be able to check up on what the local bum's up to...
883  Other / Off-topic / Re: Do you know how many employees in bitcointalk? on: October 18, 2018, 07:48:12 PM
like 6, if you consider what they do work.  Roll Eyes

for people who consider 'infrastructure' employment, try collecting your next paycheck from the road.
884  Other / Politics & Society / Re: It's Game Over for Civilization, thanks for playing. on: October 16, 2018, 01:57:55 PM
This is a very in-depth subject matter, it never even occurred to me how much oil would go into a solar panel Smiley

Isn't Thorium reactors something which needs to be explored as a better, cleaner and safer energy alternative? I personally don't want the contracts going to china to build them though. but due to the bad press with nuclear reactors I think thorium reactors has taken a back seat...



Thorium based reactors are generation 4 reactors (see molten salt). Currently, the United States uses generation 2 reactors. China's the only nation in the world with generation 3 reactors deployed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_reactor#Advanced_reactors
885  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Saudi Journalist Megathread on: October 16, 2018, 01:18:13 PM
Another journalist killed off and we're actually investigating it. Neat.

Sadly, we ignore Interpol police chef being killed off in Russia.

Also, all the Russian national journalist who had accidents.

But human rights abuses do need investigated. All of them.
886  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Is Bitcoin socialist dream come true ? on: October 16, 2018, 03:12:12 AM
TECSHARE MADE UP BULLSHIT...
miners = capital?

You drew that conclusion, not satoshi.

You never made an argument here until now. You simply stated refuted opinion.

Your evidences of 'capitalism' are pretty weak support by satoshi. Let's actually start going through them.

Quote
Re: Satoshi-
 
"6. Incentive

By convention, the first transaction in a block is a special transaction that starts a new coin owned by the creator of the block. This adds an incentive for nodes to support the network, and provides a way to initially distribute coins into circulation, since there is no central authority to issue them. The steady addition of a constant of amount of new coins is analogous to gold miners expending resources to add gold to circulation. In our case, it is CPU time and electricity that is expended.

The incentive can also be funded with transaction fees. If the output value of a transaction is less than its input value, the difference is a transaction fee that is added to the incentive value of the block containing the transaction. Once a predetermined number of coins have entered circulation, the incentive can transition entirely to transaction fees and be completely inflation free.

Initial distribution. Woo! Proof of work is also consensus my friend... but let's ignore that fact.

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The incentive may help encourage nodes to stay honest. If a greedy attacker is able to assemble more CPU power than all the honest nodes, he would have to choose between using it to defraud people by stealing back his payments, or using it to generate new coins. He ought to find it more profitable to play by the rules, such rules that favour him with more new coins than everyone else combined, than to undermine the system and the validity of his own wealth." -Satoshi

That's capitalist because honest people should stay honest? I don't really see the connection to capitalism.

Quote
"It's based on open market competition, and there will probably always be nodes willing to process transactions for free." -Satoshi
Attacking the network and making your worth valueless seems silly if you're invested in the network. Pretty standard stuff.

Quote
Protections against the network and against a 51% attack, right right. Not really linked to capitalism, but just good nodes vs bad nodes.
Quote

Huh, out of all the links you linked, this statement is about the only thing that backs up your claim;

Quote
In later years, when new coin generation is a small percentage of the existing supply, market price will dictate the cost of production more than the other way around.

which is still rather ambiguous in terms of capitalism vs socialism.

Quote
Rambling bullshit...

Fun counter-example:
Quote
The CPU proof-of-worker proof-of-work vote must have the final say. The only way for everyone to stay on the same page is to believe that the longest chain is always the valid one, no matter what.
Drawing the same pop-culture reference to worker's vote being final.

Quote
If a majority of CPU proof-of-worker is controlled by honest nodes, the honest chain will grow the fastest and outpace any competing chains.
Worker's working together rather than against each other due to malicious competition being outpaced.
887  Other / Politics & Society / Re: It's Game Over for Civilization, thanks for playing. on: October 16, 2018, 02:37:45 AM
TL;DR:

An infinite supply of energy and the capability to turn it into the resources you need at the time is magical thinking. It's nice to believe that we can produce a fusion reactor or enough alternatives to run our civilization from here to a Star Trek age of over-abundance.
But that's just magical thinking at this point in time. Please don't underestimate the convenience of oil energy and all that we take for granted right now.

I don't. I'm saying ensure energy infrastructure. While oil is a convenient portable energy source, our primary backbone is coal here in America. Oil's a frevious resource going forth. It causes more problems than it solves.
Coal's only use is to make iron into steel. Oh, also refined into nanotubes or diamonds. Not for burning.

You know what we really don't need? Those glowly rocks that everyone's afraid of. There's safe meltdown reactors like thorium, which if we had better materials would be viable. Enough power to grow the 25 billion people's food for centuries (estimated? we should run the math together).

However, I don't like burning my stockpiles, I'd rather be building it. So, let me continue on.

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Energy is not free. None of the alternatives (to oil) is a viable replacement for the foreseeable future.
It takes a whole lot of oil to create a solar panel. You could not run civilization on solar panels and wind turbines and Geothermal just yet.

Actually, there was a recent study that said for the United States, science found that it's feasible to provide renewable power entirely reliability using predicted models of environment. However, assuming it's worse than the current models (which were based on 2060), it might be a toss up, depending on the infrastructure. However, I don't think we should be worrying about a single nation's energy security, but look at a global scale.

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World energy  security is way more important.
 Human civilization already uses about half of the products of photosynthesis on a global scale.
Plants are pretty good solar cells, but they don't thrive in areas without water, such as deserts. Thermal or photovoltaic energy harvesting can benefit though.

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If you have the patience this short documentary goes though all potential energy sources and why they are not the solution to our problem, It's from 2012, but it still very much applies today.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VOMWzjrRiBg

Can you tldr? I avoid youtube. I know it probably summarizes your points, but I think it'd probably make artificially limits the scope.

Quote
Civilization requires a lot more than energy, so a few solar cell farms or wind turbines won't cut it.
To turn energy into food we need a lot of infrastructure. Growing the same food in a few decades will be a lot more difficult than it is today.

Actually, not that much energy. The infrastructure to carry the energy places is expensive.

Here's a quote from the internet somewhere, I think:
Quote
Now, if we cover an area of the Earth 335 kilometers by 335 kilometers with solar panels, even with moderate efficiencies achievable easily today, it will provide more than 17,4 TW power. This area is 43,000 square miles. The Great Saharan Desert in Africa is 3.6 million square miles and is prime for solar power (more than twelve hours per day). That means 1.2% of the Sahara desert is sufficient to cover all of the energy needs of the world in solar energy.

That's a fuckton of power at 10% of the desert. Resource heavy, but luckily... solar cells are made of silicon, which... you know, refined sand...anyway, that's getting a bit off topic.

I did a quick skim and think you mention resource limitations later.

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You say vertical farming, I say that takes a lot of resources as well. We don't have a lack of solar energy or even a lack of carbon dioxide in the air, slightly increased plant growth rates using hydro or Aeroponics in high tech farms can be part of the solution indeed may become a necessity but they still need a lot of resources, none the less of which is insulating materials and the ability to run construction equipment (very energy intensive).
Vertical farming has less water waste. It has better yields. It does take more energy and more resources for initial capital until you start valuing dirt as a resource.

Vertical farming doesn't worry much about pests or disease. It's better monitored than a standard field. Yields are higher too. But it's an early technology that's not perfected. We don't have special seeds that grow under that specific climate condition, they're all geared for traditional mass farming. We haven't really started down that path. But there's hope (MIT Grow Computer). Maybe the future generation will solve the food security through technology.

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Having a source of electricity is useless without a source of water. A source of energy doesn't automatically ensure a viable water supply.
Intense rainfall where the ground loses the capacity to store the water is also useless.

I'm assuming we're on earth, and earth's like 70% water or so. If that changes, welp, might as well hope we have a mar's colony cause an asteroid just knocked the moon into earth...

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Topsoil that takes centuries to accumulate can be used in years. Acquifers that take thousands of years to fill up can be used in decades.
Topsoil is a resource, but not really needed for food production, just the minerals of the plants. Again, I assumed earth...

Quote
I would argue that if all you have is energy you can't necessarily provide everything else.


Example: 100 Gigawatt solar farm in the desert trying to support a settlement of 500 people.

100 gigawatt operating capacity for only 500 people? Neat. Let's assume that it's 100 gigawatt operating capacity balanced out, so it's like really a >100 gigawatt farm, but it puts out only 100 gigawatt a day, or 2400 gigawatt-hour (2.4 terrawatt-hour).

Current market rates are $25 / mwh for industry/bulk energy here in America. Assuming we connected that power to something other than... itself, a grid of sorts, we could easily sell the extra energy, or utilize it for other purposes.

But building infrastructure and stuff. Let's assume have 20% losses in energy along our shitty tin cable to the ocean. We convert salt water using some of that power, and the rest of the power converts it to hydrogen. We either pipe or tank back the hydrogen to use for the heating supply, and portable energy supply for those 500 individuals. The water biproduct after local energy usage could easily be captured and utilized as a local service rather than trying to pump fresh water back.

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Energy is abundant.  You start by pumping water and using it to grow food. The aquifer dries up.
Man, if you give me an example, let me actually answer instead of trying to assume my answers Sad
Energy isn't abundant, need more energy. Need more to convert that dirty water into clean water and hydrogen.

Quote
Let's say that you can desalinate water from the sea. Now you're spending mass amounts of energy to get water transported (without infrastructure) and desalinated (also without infrastructure).
But... my hydrogen infrastructure acts as a rudimentary water delivery network. Along with water conservation techniques, I think my colony could be sustainable. Sad

Rough math says 1 kg of hydrogen = ~16 liters of fresh water. Let's assume this isn't American waste, but we consume only 100 litters per person per day. In reality, that's only burning 6.25 kg of hydrogen per person, per day, which is enough to drive a car about 300 miles. If I remember right, 1 kg of hydrogen takes about 125 kwh of energy to produce. Of course that requires clean water, as far as I know. At the ocean, let's assume it takes 200 kwh (and ~16 liters of sea water) to make 1 kg of hydrogen). So, with our 1,920,000,000 kwh / day, we could make 9,600,000 liters per day. That's enough water for 38,400 average Americans... wtf.

Obviously, if I were doing this, I'd probably convert only absolute requirements required to run infrastructure, and sell the rest off on the grid network. Anything else that couldn't be sold would also be converted (assuming people don't need additional energy during non-peak loads).

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A lot of the materials we use today use oil (plastic bottles, plastic tarps, asphalt roads) if that infrastructure craps out, all those will start breaking down.

With enough energy, these are recyclable resources. We can refine the plastics back into oils. Reform plastics from oils. Capturing them with filtering is another question. Doing it without harming the ecosystem is even the more difficult problem.

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To use transportation with your electricity you generally need batteries (if you're going to be efficient) but to get batteries you need a lot of minerals that you may not have access to (or the ability to create them). You ran out of batteries, you can't grow food without a stable water supply, your crops fail, you starve....Game Over
Fuck batteries. Fuck their energy density. Fuck their resource uses. No way...but wait, where are we in the example? Cause that's not what I'm about. To be fair if we're in the desert, I'm assuming North Africa.

Could always just offer the democratic republican of congo stability while we rape their lands of natural resources. Rich in battery intensive materials. However, I don't think I could fix all their problems with my tiny bit of solar farm, so no way I'm getting those resources without a much larger solar installation, or some more citizens with technologies.

But I don't use batteries, so I don't starve, therefore I win?

Quote
Let's say that you try to make ethanol to run conventional engines. Congratulations, you can't get anywhere close to where oil got us and due to climate change your crop fails, you get no ethanol and you invested a lot of time and human capital.... Game over.
Nope, electric vehicles still. Ethanol -> sugar is bad and a wasteful process, might as well catch that solar directly.

Quote
Let's say that the aquifer is big enough that you can pump water as long as you have electricity. Let's even say that your solar panels don't break down (or that you can somehow replace them).

Solar panels are warrantied for 25 years to be at least 80% efficient. Technically, with solar thermal, I just gotta shine that mirror once in a while. What are my 500 colonist doing? I figured maintaining the farm. There's probably going to be transformers, inverters, all that jazz for the distillation plant.

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The plastics of your greenhouses start breaking down, without a source of oil and the petrochemical industry you can't replace them. The harsh desert reclaims your food production area.... You starve. Game over.

Recycled ocean plastics would work if I were building out of plastics instead of steel and glass. I'm pretty sure I'm still in the game.

---

The only 'game over' would be cascading failures or foreign invasion.
888  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Man man climate change on: October 16, 2018, 01:20:03 AM
I went to your first link and got a virus. That was sketchy.

Anyway, the scrolling list to the right of supporters was kinda funny though. I googled some. Social justice phds, music artist phds. These people probably wouldn't even begin to understand the actual science behind climate change. Remaining ignorant and trying to ignore reality will just make the problem worse later. Treating it as someone else's problem doesn't help solve it.

That's pretty bad man.

If you want refutation; https://www.nap.edu/read/12782/chapter/1#v

If you say that you don't want to read through the hundred page document, find me human influence refutation from a scientist from this decade. The data are simply overwhelming in this instance. It's not even worth arguing back and forth.

I figured I should have made this self moderated to keep your spam away Sad
889  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Best way to Public offices. By election or appointment? on: October 16, 2018, 01:01:57 AM
Appointment by who? Other elected officials?

Seems similar to "best way to breed chickens, eggs or chickens?"

Election for any seat that has personal accountability, in which that individual is held responsible for his actions by the masses. Something where that individual is representing those people that elect them.

Appointment for positions that require responsibility and oversight.

890  Other / Politics & Society / Man made climate change on: October 15, 2018, 10:37:04 PM


Kinda crazy how human's are literally terraforming a planet's atmosphere.
891  Other / Politics & Society / Re: It's Game Over for Civilization, thanks for playing. on: October 15, 2018, 10:31:24 PM
Energy security ensures food security.

Energy security ensures water security.

As long as we have energy, we have food, water, and heat.

Vertical farming is the solution to soil degradation.
892  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Is Bitcoin socialist dream come true ? on: October 15, 2018, 09:55:34 PM
x


Wow. You were a miner. Impressive. Too bad you didn't learn anything that whole time. Oh what happened to your old account? I am sure you didn't lose it as a result of anything unsavory right? Sure making coins is easy, but managing them is not. Neither is taking a low cap coin and bringing its market cap up to 10 million dollars. Also the coin protocol I managed, Infinitecoin, was literally cloned and re-branded as Doge, later they added inflation. So just maybe I know a tad about how blockchain works, the protocols, and how mining works considering I was responsible for balancing the network. It was also the #3 most popular coin in China for a while BTW, but that's easy right?

However please do tell me more about how mining made you an expert in blockchain technology.


You forked and ran a shitcoin! Nice! Much professional. You must understand everything about PoW, PoC, PoS, and pretty much every other work type out there, right?

I remember at one point in time, I was 0.3% of the whole mining network.

I never mentioned anything about flaws in the PoW sysetm, I was pointing out the gaps in your understanding if you think capital is the only reason to use PoS over PoW. This also shows a fundamental ignorance of basic economic principals such as inflation.

Proof of work seems a lot like socialism once you abstract the meanings. But nah, you just confuse proof-of-work with proof-of-stake.


x

Uh huh. So far you have demonstrated you don't really understand PoW or PoS systems, or even basic economics, but I have no merit. Ya. Ok.

BTW reading that excerpt over and over... not seeing even the slightest hint of Socialism in there. As I explained before the capital does the work in the blockchain (the miners), and the more capital you have the more votes you have. Bitcoin is a system of mutually beneficial greed, AKA Capitalism. Satoshi goes over this in great detail. The only way you get Socialism out of that is if you live in a delusional fantasy land where everything just is what you say it is because you believe it, facts be damned.


So far you've demonstrated the inability to understand the implementation of bitcoin (which is a pretty straight forward pow implementation). You try to conflate the argument with tedious unrelated societal points rather than arguing at the abstracted technical layer. I think your primary purpose is to gaslight other individuals rather than contribute to this conversation. The fact that you haven't been banned is quite a sentiment to the libertarian nature of this forum.

As I've explained before, proof-of-work is not proof-of-stake. Proof-of-stake is pretty pro-capitalist in which the individuals holding the most capital makes the rules. Proof of work is pretty socialist in which the workers choose the rules.

If you're too dense to make the connection between "proof-of-work" and workers, then that's on you buddy.

I'm pretty sure arguing with you is akin to arguing with a flat earther, no amount of evidence or proof would change your opinion on the subject. I'm pretty sure I could sign a message as if I were Satoshi, and you'd still deny that as evidence.

Also, I like how you say "Satoshi goes over this in great detail" in which you don't even provide proof. Later, you go onto say "out of that is if you live in a delusional fantasy land where everything just is what you say it is because you believe it, facts be damned" which is pretty ironic in that instance Wink
893  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Russian Propaganda making someone seem like a baddie. on: October 15, 2018, 09:39:25 PM
George Soros has a long history of manipulating nations all over the world for his own profit and amusement. His reputation is more than justified.

Consume more propaganda and attack the evil Soros please. Smiley

Or you could enlightening yourself and actually read the article instead of just shitposting. Nah, you won't do that, reading's too complex for you it seems.

Yep, The Daily Beast, the bastion of truth, integrity, and lofty academic principals. Bitch please, I read more before you get out of bed than you do in a month. Soros is a scumbag, you don't have to look very hard to see the trail of shit he leaves behind him everywhere he goes.

For someone that does "the most reading", it seems funny how you refuse to actually point out actual refutations, and instead rely on confirmation bias.  Wink

Actually read the article and refute the points it brings up instead of shitposting... cause that's all you seem to do is shitpost.
894  Other / Serious discussion / Re: Blockchain Mode of Production on: October 15, 2018, 09:12:09 PM
This is rather interesting.

However it's extent to real-world goods production is a bit far-fetched. I'm not sure that establishing natural resource contacts makes sense under this sort of system.

I understand that real-world production can seem quite unobtainable in a DAO format- I sure thought so at first. But when you keep in mind that DAOs are essentially worker co-ops on steroids and we already have a lot of the components to integrate blockchain into goods production (think supply chain management solutions) it doesn't seem so unobtainable. I think food production might be the first real-world DAO we see: Participants fund the purchase of land and machinery, get paid-to-pick and perform other tasks on the farm, deliver the resources, sell to supermarket (or at DAO market).

The problem is the interface between physical and digital goods is still human operated.

I can't remember which market specifically, but there were about 10x the amount of futures on the market than what actually existed. Someone, a human interface between physical and digital, effectively created something from nothing several times over.

There's not really much preventing that from happening with a DAO.

Perhaps if everything were fully automated, it's be more feasible.
895  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Does it matter if politicians have affairs? on: October 15, 2018, 08:42:48 PM
If an individual can't be honest and faithful to their partner, why would one expect them to be honest and faithful to their constituents? If an individual has an open relationship with their partner, I don't really see an issue.

Of course, society is mostly monogamist rather than polygamist. So of course when someone is being polygamist, people whine.
896  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Russian Propaganda making someone seem like a baddie. on: October 15, 2018, 08:35:45 PM
George Soros has a long history of manipulating nations all over the world for his own profit and amusement. His reputation is more than justified.

Consume more propaganda and attack the evil Soros please. Smiley

Or you could enlightening yourself and actually read the article instead of just shitposting. Nah, you won't do that, reading's too complex for you it seems.
897  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Shoot The Shit About American Politics on: October 15, 2018, 08:34:26 PM
GOP falls for fake news consistently.

I wish people would wake up and see the tyranny that currently exist.

Instead, the chat online detailing the evidence of this tyranny is drown out by trolls spreading misinformation.

This is the state of politics today.
898  Other / Politics & Society / Re: Is Bitcoin socialist dream come true ? on: October 15, 2018, 08:23:05 PM
I don't think you really understand bitcoin.

Oh is that so? How long have you been around? What kind of coin development work have you participated in? PLEASE try me and let me spank you in public like the child you are.


Spank me daddy Wink

I've actually been around nearly as long as your account by the looks of it. A matter of weeks difference on registration dates.

I've never contributed to a shitcoin. A buddy did create a shitcoin before and I mined a few thousand of them for lawlz. It doesn't take much technical knowledge to compile the tens of dozens of shitcoin sources out there today.

I've minted several block myself historically Wink

I remember at one point in time, I was 0.3% of the whole mining network.


If it were just about capital, it'd be switched to proof-of-stake instead of proof-of-work.

Well clearly you have all the solutions and we should just do what you say right? I am certain there are absolutely no dynamics in the PoW system that you don't understand now are there?


Nope. There are multiple problems that remain unsolved. Even by me.


Rather than being trolling in your comments, why not argue logically? I was playing as a victim, I was explaining what BTC actually is.

If you have arguments with proof-of-work or proof-of-capacity or have problems following the abstraction logic, be clear in the articulation of that instead of just posting trollish responses.

I have been arguing logically, you just don't like the fact that I totally dismantled your premise, therefore your only option in the lack of any argument is to claim I am trolling and ignoring logic.

You have no technical merit and you don't back up your logic with reasoning or technical details. Your obvious misunderstandings of the implementation of bitcoin have become pretty apparent. Perhaps you should give the whitepaper one more read over before commenting further in the relationship to socialism.

It's rather short; https://bitcoin.org/bitcoin.pdf

Particularly this section:
Quote
The proof-of-work also solves the problem of determining representation in majority decision
making. If the majority were based on one-IP-address-one-vote, it could be subverted by anyone
able to allocate many IPs. Proof-of-work is essentially one-CPU-one-vote. The majority
decision is represented by the longest chain, which has the greatest proof-of-work effort invested
in it. If a majority of CPU power is controlled by honest nodes, the honest chain will grow the
fastest and outpace any competing chains. To modify a past block, an attacker would have to
redo the proof-of-work of the block and all blocks after it and then catch up with and surpass the
work of the honest nodes. We will show later that the probability of a slower attacker catching up
diminishes exponentially as subsequent blocks are added.
899  Other / Politics & Society / Re: America should build a boat. on: October 14, 2018, 04:26:22 PM
Boat with nuclear engine will be too expensive, plus just think - how boat will enter in the ports, if it will be much larger than others. Ports have max depth for boats.  Wink

Nah, boat's so large that it is the dock. Other boats come into the big boat to move around cargo and supplies. The big boat just stays in the water 24/365.
900  Other / Serious discussion / Re: Blockchain Mode of Production on: October 13, 2018, 07:24:09 PM
This is rather interesting.

However it's extent to real-world goods production is a bit far-fetched. I'm not sure that establishing natural resource contacts makes sense under this sort of system.
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