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1021  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: [Guide] Surviving the fork, or How to double your bitcoins (or save fiat) on: August 20, 2015, 08:27:24 PM
I mean, in that scenario, you are simply gambling.  Not a smart one either it seems, because if your Bitcoin is worth $200 prefork, and non-XT chain flash crashes to $10 - I hardly see the value in taking $200 Bitcoin, that will probably start soaring in the XT Chain once the drama is over, and trying to "Double" your Bitcoin by moving it to a Chain that has a $10 value - and you double it $10 x2 to $20.  Now that is investment genius.

OK - this actually made me think of something I haven't seen elsewhere.....
Let's assume the above scenario does occur - a fork where both chains survive.  What happens to the "finite number" of Bitcoin.  I mean, say you have 15 million Bitcoin at Zero Hour.  Then say XT Fork wins, and the vast majority of Bitcoins choose that chain.

But say 1 Million of those Bitcoin Holders choose the Core Chain.   Does that mean that the New Finite number of bitcoins that will ever exist on XT will now be 20 million?

NOTE:  I also still can't understand what is going to drive people to stay on Core IF XT Chain wins and takes off.  Because in that scenario there is almost a 100% chance that Bitcoin XT will start moving up in value, and Bitcoin-Core will start devaluing massively in the immediate aftermath.  I just am trying to imagine sitting there looking at my wallet with a Bitcoin in it, and saying if I take the right hand path I get $200+ and if I go left I get $20 - and then deciding to do the STUPID thing.  I mean - why wouldn't I just go to XT for a lot more value, then sell for dollars, then go back and buy TEN (10) Bitcoin-Core (now a minor fork altcoin).  I mean - I am thinking that is the path people would take???  I would.

Well, this doesn't make sense to me in the way I think about things.

If HYPOTHETICALLY at "Zero Hour" the hardfork occurs, and XT wins, but I subsequently choose to run my 1 million Bitcoins onto the old Core Chain - and if everyone seems pretty clear that those Bitcoins can NEVER EVER EVER go back onto the XT Chain - then it seems to me that the XT Chain just lost 1 million bitcoins.

So is my understanding of this flawed?  Or are you saying that my Core-Forked Bitcoin are still counted in the 21 Million XT Bitcoins - but just "lost".

Some of your comments lead me to believe that you don't really understand what the OP is talking about.

It's simple. If you have bitcoins now (pre-fork), and a fork occurs, and there is a market for XTcoins and bitcoins post-fork, you will have XTcoins AND traditional bitcoins equal to the amount of pre-fork coins you had.

Let's say you own 1 bitcoin now (pre-fork).

A fork occurs. There is demand for coins (and mining occurring) on both chains. So, we have two surviving block chains (for whatever period of time).

You will then have 1 XTcoin and 1 traditional bitcoin.

You can then taint one of your coins with coins which only exist on one of the forks. Let's say you get a few satoshis from block reward which occurred in a XT 8mb block (thus is not valid and does not exist on the 1mb chain). You can combine those satoshis with your 1 XTcoin by sending them to a new address under your control. This means your XTcoins can be safely moved separately from your traditional bitcoins.

If you don't taint your coins first, any transaction you make will be valid on both chains, so if you send your coins to an address which is not under your control, the holder of the private keys for that address will be able to get both your XTcoins and traditional bitcoins.

There is no risk for you, until you make the decision to taint your coins on one chain, and then exchange them for something of value. You will hold coins on BOTH chains until you take these actions. Even the tainting itself does not incur any risk for you. It simply allows you to craft transactions on each chain which is no longer valid on the other chain.

You can then decide to:

a. sell only your XTcoins
b. sell only your traditional bitcoins
c. sell both of them
d. sell none of them

Should there be demand for both kinds of coins (and it's looking like there will be), then the risk comes when you make the choice to economically back one side. You may sell all your XTcoins and traditional bitcoins become worth far more, or you may decide to sell all your traditional bitcoins and XTcoins become worth far more. Perhaps the community is divided enough that both chains will continue to exist far into the future and they will reach valuations based on the demand for either coin. Perhaps the split will cause a loss of trust in Bitcoin entirely and neither fork will hold their value. No one knows.

If the fork occurs when there are 15 million coins, there will be 15 million XTcoins and 15 million traditional bitcoins.

In order for you to control both of your coins, you need to first be the sole controller of your private keys when the fork occurs.

I hope this clears things up for you.
1022  Bitcoin / Armory / Re: Transferring exactly 100% of wallet when transaction fee is variable on: August 20, 2015, 05:09:51 PM
Add up your total balance.

Choose an appropriate fee manually.

Subtract that fee from your balance.

Send the remaining balance to an address of your choosing using the fee which you subtracted from the original balance.
1023  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: [Guide] Surviving the fork, or How to double your bitcoins (or save fiat) on: August 20, 2015, 05:03:09 PM
Is there any potential risk anyone see's in this scenario / strategy of just leaving your coins in the exchange wallets?

Yes. If you aren't the sole controller of your private keys, you don't have any bitcoins. You have IOUs issued by whatever exchange you are using.
1024  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Options for core people who consider core the real bitcoin? on: August 20, 2015, 02:48:30 PM
If there is a fork, make high fee transactions on the Core chain (a high fee will entice miners to mine on the Core chain). You could also make it clear you are willing to trade things of value for Core coins. Try to purchase more Core coins.

If there is enough demand, some miners will continue to mine on the Core chain. (Some will do it simply because, like you, they do not want XT.)

Taint your coins on the XT chain with some inputs that only exist on the XT chain (XTaint), by sending your coins plus the XTaint to another address you control. (You can now spend XT coins without worrying about your Core coins.)

Sell your XT coins.

Buy Core coins with the proceeds from that sale.
1025  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin XT has code which downloads your IP address to facilitate blacklisting on: August 19, 2015, 06:40:10 AM
Somebody should post those quotes to the reddit crowd. (I dont have energy for that place anymore).

Why bother. Reddit (as far as I am concerned) is a place where practically no valuable information is exchanged.
1026  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Is There A Way To Increase Blocksize And Keep Bitcoin Core?? on: August 19, 2015, 06:38:54 AM
Sure.  Just wait until it is necessary.  Even staunch small-blockists like me have no real problem with raising the block size as long as it

 - is necessary
 - can contribute to support of a real solution for scaling
 - is safe
 - does not compromise the security and autonomy of the solution which is the most important and valuable thing about Bitcoin to me.

In no way, shape, or form is allowing nearly free purchases of frappacino worth sacrificing any of the above mentioned aspects.  If Bitcoin were going to 'take off' under near-free transaction fees it would have done so within the last decade when the infrastructure was supported by inflation alone and fees were negligible.  That it did not means that there is really no demand for native Bitcoin used in that role and other solutions are simply more competitive.

I have hope that frappacino-coin will be implemented as a sidecoin so in reality Bitcoin will be used for such purposes but in a way which is safe, scalable, flexible, and highly robust.  Best of all worlds with no tangible downsides...except that it will blow up any hopes that TPTB would have of tracking.  The fact that the pre-mature seeming thrust to do the BitcoinXT hostile takeover happened leads me to believe that sidechains will actually work quite well and there was really no choice but to try to do it as a hail Mary and hope for the best.

This guy... makes a lot of sense.
1027  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Not Bitcoin XT on: August 19, 2015, 06:27:23 AM
YESSS!!! Bitcoiners trying to hurt bitcoiners over some stupid political squabble!

http://meaningness.com/metablog/geeks-mops-sociopaths
1028  Economy / Speculation / Re: Coinwallet september stress test. -expect 30 day backlog on: August 18, 2015, 06:20:59 PM
I speculate that people will get what they pay for.
1029  Other / Meta / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 18, 2015, 05:49:15 PM
Bitcoin is apparently censorship resistant, thus the amount of censorship currently happening is baffling. No greater shame happened on this community historically.

Whether or not I approve of the moderation efforts happening here, I don't really understand this point of view (although I keep seeing it). This is a (private as in ownership) forum for discussing Bitcoin, it has nothing to do with actual Bitcoin technology (which is censorship-proof).

If this forum were somehow built on a distributed block chain, then your observation would be valid.

If anything, this clearly points out why we need Bitcoin in the first place.
1030  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Not Bitcoin XT on: August 18, 2015, 05:38:59 PM
I am sure that Satoshi would not have spent a couple of years creating bitcoin, if it had to end up that way.  One thing that the world does not need is another lousy banking system.

The thing is, we don't need Bitcoin's freedom from lousy bankers for every transaction under the sun. All we need is for the system to exist and function so that when we do need it's properties, it is available to us.

I think using Bitcoin to buy a Happy Meal is like using a chain saw to cut down a dandelion.
1031  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: I would fork bitcoin (in half) today if I could on: August 18, 2015, 05:14:27 PM
Consensus is great when it exists, but it can't be forced on someone that doesn't share your views.

Well it can be (see democracy), but it shouldn't be.

That's not "consensus".  That's "tyranny of the majority" (or "tyranny of the powerful").  It doesn't force the minority (or weak) to share the views of the majority (or powerful), it simply frustrates them and frequently results in them feeling disenfranchised and resentful.  They may obey, but that doesn't necessarily mean that they consent.

Sure, but for all practical purposes (in their actions, if not thoughts) they have been forced to consent, which I'll happily admit is an oxymoron.
1032  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: I would fork bitcoin (in half) today if I could on: August 18, 2015, 04:48:48 PM
Consensus is great when it exists, but it can't be forced on someone that doesn't share your views.

Well it can be (see democracy), but it shouldn't be.
1033  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: I would fork bitcoin (in half) today if I could on: August 18, 2015, 04:46:57 PM
A fork is nothing to be feared, in fact it is an opportunity (in more ways than one).
1034  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Mike Hearn: In about 1-2 weeks, Bitcoin XT will include support for 20mb blocks on: August 17, 2015, 11:53:56 PM
If the 1mb limit stays tx fees will rise higher then visa.

Bitcoin transactions are worth more than VISA transactions and I am willing to pay more for them.

I realize this is unspeakable for all the mainstreamers out there.

You get what you pay for.
1035  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: August 17, 2015, 05:38:37 PM
The possible complication is if the community gets stuck in a half-way state, with almost equal mining power on each side.  Then there may be two blockchains, lots of orphaned blocks and branches, etc.. 

You don't want to know about that possibility; just pray that it does not happen, and, if it does, just stop issuing transaction until the impasse gets resolved as above.  Even after the critical block, all the unspent coins that were created before that block will remain there, no matter what happens. 

It's funny that someone who has no stake in this is telling us to "pray that it does not happen", while I am sitting here praying that it does happen.

A fork is nothing to be feared, in fact it should be seen as an opportunity. I'm especially interested in a fork which has (even if temporarily) two surviving chains.

This is all just an experiment and we really need to see what happens when a major, long lasting fork occurs. If Bitcoin can't survive, it wasn't good enough to begin with, and it would be time to go back to the drawing board.
1036  Economy / Speculation / Re: Shall we start selling all of our Bitcoins fast? on: August 17, 2015, 04:53:04 PM
If there is a fork, any private keys you hold prior to the fork will exist on both sides. You can then taint them with post-fork coins and separate them entirely (holding both, selling one or the other, selling them both).

If you want to make sure you don't have a vote (the only kind of vote that counts) in the matter, sell before the fork.

Taken from the article:
"But even if the change goes through relatively quickly, some inattentive users could find themselves out of pocket. Once the block sizes increase (which won’t happen until January 2016, and then only if 75% of the miners have switched to Bitcoin XT), the two versions of bitcoin will be incompatible. Transactions made on one version of bitcoin would not be reflected on the other, essentially rendering null any attempts to spend bitcoin on the “losing” fork after that date."

Do you mean you will still be able to sell after 2016 any coins that were on Core?

If there is demand for transactions (mining) on both sides of the fork, that demand will obviously be met.

Clearly, since there is no consensus, there will be demand.
1037  Economy / Speculation / Re: Shall we start selling all of our Bitcoins fast? on: August 17, 2015, 04:49:47 PM
If there is a fork, any private keys you hold prior to the fork will exist on both sides. You can then taint them with post-fork coins and separate them entirely (holding both, selling one or the other, selling them both).

If you want to make sure you don't have a vote (the only kind of vote that counts) in the matter, sell before the fork.
1038  Bitcoin / Development & Technical Discussion / Re: Not Bitcoin XT on: August 17, 2015, 05:44:59 AM
Now there are two Bitcoins. What do we do then?

Taint and sell one of them in order to purchase more of the other with the proceeds.
1039  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Satoshi Speaks. Real? Hoax? on: August 16, 2015, 04:15:52 AM
satoshi holds the private keys to a lot of bitcoins. Should there be a fork in the future, he can single-handedly devastate whichever side of the fork he doesn't agree with by tainting his coins with coins from a new block from that fork and then dumping them on the market. In a 1-2 punch he can then use the proceeds from that sale to purchase additional coins on the side of the fork he does agree with. In other words, satoshi doesn't have to use his words in this case.
1040  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: August 14, 2015, 04:08:25 PM
it seems the avg Bitcoiner can't bear to hear or even discuss "possible" messy scenarios as Mike is quite rightfully willing to do.

It's pretty clear that Mike doesn't understand what an economic majority means. If you have the economic majority, you don't need to enforce a "technical mess" to fix anything.

I still don't understand how anyone interested in Bitcoin can support anything associated with Hearn after hearing anything the guy has to say, unless they actually want to turn Bitcoin into something completely unrecognizable.

I'm not completely opposed to bigger blocks, but I am completely opposed to BitcoinXT and anything Hearn.
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