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301  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: November 12, 2015, 02:32:19 PM



I have two keys to a locker that may or may not contain 24 billion dollars - how much are they worth? Scarcity does not equate to value.

Scarcity on something that is useless in every sense, probably not. But bitcoin is not in that category.

Gold's annual production is around 2500 tons. There are a few metals which have a production that is counted in just a few tons per year, typically in the PGE (Platinum Group of Elements). These metals fluctuate wildly in their prices as their scarcity alone allows their marketcap and price to be squeezed high through a single buy, or dumped quite lower with a few not-so-dramatic moves in terms of $$$. But noone says "ohh Iridium is a pump and dump because it was $400 in 2010, $1100 in 2012 and fell to $400 in 2013". You know it's a small market and that fluctuations are to be expected.

Bitcoin is similar in a sense. Yet, beside being scarce, it also has something to offer. It can do online payments, it can preserve wealth in the long run - especially for multiple countries that run double digit inflation, it can be a diversification asset, it can bypass capital controls, it can offer banking services even to kids who are gaming and want to sell or buy a fictional item or a game account in an MMORPG - which would otherwise be impossible without using their parents bank/CC/paypal etc, it can even be considered a collectible as the first decentralized digital currency (which is a historic event analogous to the first coins or first paper notes). People are paying hundreds or thousands of dollars for a good condition uncirculated coin of 100 years ago, just because this type of coin is harder harder to find than a coin in average circulated or worn condition. In any case, as far as BTC is concerned, the scarcity factor means that not many people can hold 1 BTC - but we all know that. Which, by necessity, will make the prices go much higher.

Many people that are trading bitcoin do so from the U.S. or Europe and they have a fundametal problem in appreciating it. We do not really understand or appreciate the benefits of what bitcoin can do for countries that do not have numismatic stability or easy international transactions through banks/paypal/credit cards etc due to quotas, controls, government approvals to buy even 10 dollars worth of stuff, etc.

For an American or a European, bitcoin is a very misunderstood asset because most of its benefits are not readily visible. The same is true for gold btw - most people will prefer money in the bank rather than gold. Having numismatic stability for a few decades makes you forget that your currency is just faith-backed money that can fall over the cliff overnight just because there was an international shock, a war, some political mess, etc etc. But countries that are immersed in that kind of shit do not value their fiat - they only value land, gold, tangible assets, hard currency (if they can get their hands on it) and Bitcoin (because through bitcoin they can actually have the equivalent of hard currency - despite their government blocking access to hard currency). So, in a sense, hard currencies like the dollar are not directly competitive with Bitcoin, but weaker ones are, because Bitcoin is the medium to have access to dollars despite a government's effort to prevent the population from stacking foreign exchange or using it to store wealth, or using it to conducting international trade.

Traders are in awe when they see a nice 10-15% spread to a Chinese exchange, but they have no idea that some people are arbing 50 or 100% for selling BTCs (in local currency equivalent of $$$) in countries that have numismatic instability.

That's more like it, many of those are good reasons for bitcoin to have value - and all better then "Bitcoin is scarce" which is easy and fundamentally lazy. Yes if Bitcoin can be used to do things that add value then it has value, and the finite number of bitcoins increases its value if more than that many are in demand, but first it must be used to do things - and the more those things are developed the better.
Owning 1 bitcoin equates to owning access to 100,000,000 entries on the blockchain (or lockers) - the more each entry can be used for (the more types of stuff I can put in a locker) and the more people want to access the lockers the more each bitcoin is worth.
302  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: November 12, 2015, 01:19:16 PM
What is the true value of 1 bitcoin? Nobody knows.

1 full bitcoin (1.0 BTC) is as scarce as 12kg of above ground gold. The price will readjust itself in the long run to reflect this. I'm not saying it will go to the value of 12kg gold, but price has to adjust to accommodate the scarcity factor.

Nice metaphor.



I have two keys to a locker that may or may not contain 24 billion dollars - how much are they worth? Scarcity does not equate to value.
303  Economy / Speculation / Re: Fall due to Coinbase trying to push through XT and change leadership ? on: November 11, 2015, 07:50:13 AM
more likely to be selling and or spending for China Singles Day
304  Economy / Speculation / Re: Poll: What Will the Bitcoin Price Be in 2016? on: November 09, 2015, 02:50:33 PM
Trying to work out how people voted "other" , pretty sure all the possibilities are included in the stated ranges.
305  Economy / Speculation / Re: Price: + OR - the next 7 days? on: November 05, 2015, 04:00:28 PM
+/- $388 in next 7 days -  current price $388
306  Economy / Economics / Re: "Jamie Dimon: You're Wasting Your Time With Bitcoin" - Reactions? on: November 05, 2015, 03:25:10 PM
Interested to see how people on this board would respond to Jamie Dimons statement about Bitcoin and Blockchain technology. Here's the link http://fortune.com/video/2015/11/04/jamie-dimon-youre-wasting-your-time-with-bitcoin/

As much as I hate to admit. He is right regarding no government will put up with non-control currency for long.
Bitcoin does not have to replace a fiat currency to be successful - it just needs to become a less frictional - ie less costly - method than banks for transactions than paying USD by a bank. Right now with quite high (0.25 - 0.5% of notional) bid/offers and relatively low liquidity it is not. What would the cost be to convert $100K to BTC move it to another person and then move it back to USD again? Right now its a lot more - and a lot more execution risk -  than asking a bank to transfer $100K to the other person.
307  Economy / Economics / Re: "Jamie Dimon: You're Wasting Your Time With Bitcoin" - Reactions? on: November 05, 2015, 03:18:56 PM
Banks until now have said we love the blockchain, but hate Bitcoin.

Jamie seems to be running down the blockchain as well. He says the blockchain wouldn't offer improvement in areas like trading of stocks. This is plain silly. Why would you be satisfied with a 2 day settlement period, armies of men keeping track of transactions, possibilities of errors, etc, while the blockchain can do a better job in 10 minutes?

Banks have been saying blockchain because the word bitcoin scares the hell out of the senior people within them - after all , everyone involved in bitcoin is a libertarian nutcase right?   What they have worked out though, and what is finally spreading upwards through their organisations is that you cannot have one with out the other, any blockchain needs an incentive system to maintain its security, and none of the "private" blockchain solutions currently can offer the security of the bitcoin blockchain. Maybe bitcoin will not be the "winning" standard but it is the current front runner - and there are plenty of people inventing ways of interacting with the bitcoin chain which will/do comply with regulation. Bitcoin does not need to replace FIAT to be successful - but what it does need to do is move to be lower friction and less costly. (lower bid/offers rather than lower transaction fees)
308  Economy / Speculation / Re: $486 WOT the hell is going on???????? on: November 05, 2015, 12:47:32 PM
Wasn't the price high yesterday as there was a Silk road auction? It's down today and one user predicted this as well.
The auction is later on today - this small sell off is just taking some of the pressure out of the rally - a dose of reality is a good thing - the slower the rally the more sustainable it becomes
309  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: November 04, 2015, 04:39:00 PM
Six times the Army of Northern Virginia BTC assaulted the heights of Little Round Top 500.   Six times the 20th Maine 500 repelled them.
someone better tell the Chinese the price is lower than they think it is
310  Economy / Speculation / Re: Great explanation of just how rare Bitcoin really is on: November 04, 2015, 04:33:27 PM
Courtesy of Brian Kelly, author of the Bitcoin Big Bang

http://bitcoinbigbang.com

Is It Sustainable?
In short, yes.  There are two reasons why BK thinks the bitcoin rally will last 1.) Limited Supply 2.) Halving Day. First lets address the limited supply – the total amount of bitcoins that will ever exist is 21 million, but there are currently only 14.8 million in circulation. The remainder of the coins will be minted over the next few decades as payments to miners who confirm and process transactions.  The positive news-flow has certainly increased price speculation and the limited supply exacerbates the move.  One way to look at the limited supply is to look at how many people could amass a stake of $100,000 worth of bitcoin.  At current prices (~$400) $100k is 250 bitcoins. Since there are only 14.8 million in circulation, this means that only 59,200 people in the entire world could own $100k worth of bitcoin.  When one considers there are 11,000 hedge funds and 7,000 mutual funds (total 18k), if they all wanted to buy a tiny stake of $100k they would take up 30% of the total supply.


One thing to add, of those 14.8 million "in circulation" remember 1 million belongs to Satoshi and are locked up, potentially as many as 2-3 million maybe be lost forever on dormant hard drives, a few million are held in strong hands leaving only a couple million for actual trading and up for grabs by weaker hands.



however scarcity is possibly the least useful argument for explaining why bitcoin has value.  There are only two keys for the locker under my desk - making them much much rarer than bitcoin - they are however entirely without value as the locker is empty.
311  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: November 04, 2015, 04:24:40 PM
So its current price is entirely speculative.

The price of any stock, currency, or commodity is entirely "speculative." That is how markets work. Intrinsic value is dynamic and found within anything of value/utility. Bitcoin has tremendous utility and value and its assets can be considered both the collective IP, userbase, and hardware that supports our ecosystem.

In a sane system, stock pay dividends and some worth can be assigned to a company based on actual returns.

However, as with so many other things, the government fucked that up and now a company that never returns anything of actual value to its shareholders can go through the roof. This suits the government which needs to find a sinkhole to dump its filthy fiat into.

Agreed... but stock owners are speculating on future dividend gains that may or may not be realized when they purchase stock. Just like with bitcoin. But unlike bitcoin, stocks have little use or utility while you own them. A lot of stock doesn't even allow you any voting power.

Owning a bitcoin is more like owning a royalty dividend on the intellectual property of the blockchain, than owning a stock.  
The more things the blockchain is used for the more your royalty payment should be worth. Value of bitcoin today = NPV of the value of all the fees on all the future transactions. Bitcoin traders are in effect speculating on future volumes of transactions and speed of adoption. One could argue that recent positive coverage and investment might significantly increase speed of adoption - which would lead to a real reason for a rising price.
312  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: November 04, 2015, 03:52:11 PM
when can we start with the 666 memes?  Monday?

2014 Jun 01 (on the way down):


sorry I should have said restart
313  Economy / Speculation / Re: Parity watch -> Who's next? on: November 04, 2015, 03:32:52 PM
Unless it's been previously mentioned, perhaps we should have Death Star cost parity. I assume everyone will want their own one eventually anyway.

 $8,100,000,000,000,000 ($8.1 quadrillion!?), a large number of multiples of global GDP. According to some students in Pennsylvania
314  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: November 04, 2015, 12:59:10 PM
Price has doubled in a month.

This has happened in each of the previous jumps.

Previously this translated into a doubling again 2 weeks later, then another doubling 1 week later...then...
so with 75% retracement we should end up about here.........  no risk to buying now then huzzah.
315  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: November 04, 2015, 11:58:27 AM
Oh my god somebody pinch me please.
Stamp 473
Finex 472
Huobi 494
'til now for today +16%
the last 4 weeks +98%

This is insane!There will come a dump.That's for sure!The question is how strong it will be.

Every night this week I went to bed expecting to see a dump when I awoke the next morning, but the price had shot up. It is an insane parabolic rise and I'm beginning to wonder how high it can go. At this rate it will surpass 2013. Strangely people appear to be dumping alts to buy Bitcoin when its usually vice versa. Very few of them have risen in percent USD as much as Bitcoin, they are dropping in value against it.
new money (MMM) doesn't care about altcoins.
316  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: November 04, 2015, 11:55:37 AM
when can we start with the 666 memes?  Monday?
317  Economy / Speculation / Re: Analysis never ends on: November 04, 2015, 09:41:24 AM
Bullish count:
https://i.imgur.com/dsglVWT.jpg

But as always, for every bullish count there is an equally bearish one...

What price is 5 ?

10K at least. price is on a log scale.
Timing looks like 2017?
318  Economy / Speculation / Re: Analysis never ends on: November 04, 2015, 08:11:13 AM
Market is so overbought that there is not much bids left... Yet China continues buying.

chinese household holdings (20 trillion usd) + capital controls = do the math (if only 1% trickles down into bitcoin)

be very very scared though when they decide to all go the other way.
319  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: November 03, 2015, 02:50:18 PM
Circle jerk temp check?
way past boiled over
320  Economy / Speculation / Re: Bitcoin price at the end of 2015 on: November 03, 2015, 02:49:21 PM
With past 30 days bitcoin has risen 60%.

Since we are already on a parabolic rise, you take 1.6 into the power of 2, that gives us 2.56.

Now we extrapolate by multiplying the current price of nearly 400$ with 2.56 and we will get 1024$.

During the next 30 days bitcoin will reach 1024$. Since 1024 is already a power of 2 and a cryptographically significant integer, it is an omen that silently confirms my claims.

whaaaat?
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