That's the problem with extreme ideas, is that you do not consider any possibility between authoritarianism and anarchy. And morality is subjective. Ayn Rand believed it moral to be selfish, yet died while accepting social security in her final years.
You can answer the question, or be ignored - doesn't matter much either way to me: Do you think it is ok for goods and services to be provided at the barrel of a gun?Yes, or No. It's not a black and white answer, IMHO. In general, no. Let me ask you this: Is it okay for a society in which you reside, by barrel of a gun, to have you banished from that society because you refuse to contribute what is considered to be a fair share to the commons needed for that society to exist? It's absolutely a black and white answer. If you think some services can be provided at the barrel of a gun, that counts as a yes. As for your question, it proves you don't have a private sector job. If you did, you'd understand that private sector workers get paid by contributing to society. People WILLINGLY give me money to build websites for them. I don't have to threaten them to pay for my services, whether needed or not. The fact that people pay me more than I even need for my standard of living, proves that I produce for others more than I consume. Furthermore, being forced to contribute isn't a contribution at all. It's actual name is "armed robbery". |
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Unless you buy from a car dealer that doesn't. I see you like trolling gov't fear around here. What exactly do you do for a living? Just post shit for the IRS?
I am a pragmatist, not an idealist. I like to be aware of the laws, and avoid going to jail. Being ignorant of the laws that you are fighting against is not a sign of activism. so you're avoiding answering what you do for a living? |
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But, but but ... Federal Judge Rules Bitcoin is a currency ... http://techcrunch.com/2013/08/07/bitcoin-clampdown-continues-as-federal-judge-says-its-a-currency/A federal judge in Texas has declared that Bitcoin is a currency and should therefore be regulated just like U.S. dollars The only limitation of Bitcoin is that it is limited to those places that accept it as currency. However, it can also be exchanged for conventional currencies, such as the U.S. dollar, Euro, Yen, and Yuan. Therefore, Bitcoin is a currency or form of money, and investors wishing to invest in BTCST provided an investment of money. This a Federal court ruling. It seems pretty well spelled out ... someone must be smoking the SR products at the IRS? They're incredibly inept. Most IRS workers look like they shop for groceries at WalMart: Big, Fat dumbasses with the emotional maturity of 10 year olds. |
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And if you buy a nice car with $10K in BTC, the car dealer would still have to report you as if you bought it with cash. I'm not saying it's right, but I don't see how it is a narrow attack on transacting in bitcoin versus transacting in cash.
Unless you buy from a car dealer that doesn't. I see you like trolling gov't fear around here. What exactly do you do for a living? Just post shit for the IRS? The car dealership must file a report with FinCEN whether you pay by BitPay or bankwire. I don't think this has anything to do with the IRS, however. And having a report filed doesn't mean you've done anything wrong. Here is the quote from BCB: If I just send right to the dealers bitcoin address - no Bitpay is required, and so no reporting is required. I know of a couple dealers who would do that and never say a word about it. |
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Here's the issue with bitcoin.
No chargebacks, and you need to store/protect your private keys.
That's a BAD thing.
When I buy things online, I buy with a credit card. I don't have to do any research into whether a merchant is reputable or not. If it doesn't show up or is not as advertised, I make a phone call and get my money back. I don't have to worry about protecting my information, because if it's stolen, I make a phone call, get my money back, and get a new card issued.
For fiat, it by itself has no protection, but banks, a trusted 3rd party, and the FDIC protect it. If your bank account is hacked, you get your money back. If there's fraud of some kind involved, you get your money back. If your bank goes bankrupt, the FDIC covers up to 250K of it, which is sufficient protection for most people.
In order for bitcoin to appeal to the masses, there needs to be a trusted 3rd party who can offer a payment solution that includes dispute resolution and chargebacks, 100% protection for your account being hacked, basically removing any kind of responsibility or liability from the end user. And I'm not talking about a "trusted" 3rd party like coinbase, or bitstamp. The service would have to be offered by an organization like bank of america.
To the average person, there's no appeal of bitcoin. It puts the onus on YOU to protect your money and making sure the merchant is reliable. I've lost one of my credit cards while on vacation, didn't even worry about it till I got back. If that were bitcoin then I'd be panicking about losing a ton of money if I didn't resolve it immediately.
Well, skooter, don't buy any bitcoins and feel free to sell me any you have. |
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They cannot print "In God We Trust" on bitcoins.
I always thought "In ESCDA and SHA256 We Trust" would be a more appropriate motto. But seriously, why do you think the government hates bitcoin? I see the government attempting to regulate it, so it doesn't become a method to break existing tax evasion/money laundering laws, but nothing more onerous than what it already applies to existing payment methods or bartering systems. You would still get reported to the IRS if you deposited $10,000 worth of cash to your bank account vs. a transfer of $10,000 of USD from a bitcoin exchange. Because in a post BTC world, you don't but 10K fiat into your bank account, you pay in BTC And if you buy a nice car with $10K in BTC, the car dealer would still have to report you as if you bought it with cash. I'm not saying it's right, but I don't see how it is a narrow attack on transacting in bitcoin versus transacting in cash. Unless you buy from a car dealer that doesn't. I see you like trolling gov't fear around here. What exactly do you do for a living? Just post shit for the IRS? |
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All I can figure is that the "bitcoin is doomed by IRS" posts have a lot to do with the influx of noobs around here.
The IRS may as well have said that they were going to tax the moon. It would be easier than collecting bitcoin taxes.
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That's the problem with extreme ideas, is that you do not consider any possibility between authoritarianism and anarchy. And morality is subjective. Ayn Rand believed it moral to be selfish, yet died while accepting social security in her final years.
You can answer the question, or be ignored - doesn't matter much either way to me: Do you think it is ok for goods and services to be provided at the barrel of a gun?Yes, or No. |
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This is why I don't think the powers that be invented bitcoin. They are just way too stuck in their mindset to even conceive of the idea.
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Sadly it's a common smear of libertarianism these days.
Clearly a buy-product of rheally pour sckooling.
I'm just asking what the difference is. If you are unable to explain, then I don't think you have a firm understanding of your philosophy. I honestly want to know. It's not a smear. If you actually have a valid argument as to why Somalia doesn't represent a libertarian utopia, then I may use it myself to argue the other way in the future. You really don't have to feel insulted when your way of thinking is challenged. The burden of proof is on you. You used Somalia as an example first, while admitting you never lived there and really don't know the situation. So why are you even bringing it up? The idea of having a government isn't something that needs examples - its just logic and morality. Its a simple question: Should goods and services be provided at the barrel of a gun? If you think yes, you're an authoritarian and a psychopath. If you say no, you're an anarchist. |
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Who cares wtf the I.R.S. does.
Not a single Satoshi I own is traceable to me as a individual.
Anybody could own my BTC, there is no way for the I.R.S. to prove otherwise.
Bitcoin was designed in a way that you should all be able to safely ignore the I.R.S. on this issue.
In reality most of BTC value is attributed to that fact, silkroad is what gave BTC value, gambling sites also helped.
I dare you to do what you said if you live in U.S. Unless your total btc holding is worth couple thousands USD. I already have. Furthermore, I've stated as much on here for years that the IRS is never getting my cryptocoins - so they can even look at this forum for proof that I don't care what they say. The IRS means nothing to me. They owe ME money, not the other way around. |
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If you have a hierarchical-pyramid system, like we have now, all other systems become hierarchical as well. If you have a decentralized system like cryptocoins, everything else will become decentralized.
That is an interesting analogy and quite correct I believe. Thank you for that. No way... Gox...Bitcoin Foundation, etc. We need to fight to support decentralized projects, and it doesn't "just happen." yeah, actually it does. Just creating a decentralized system doesn't erase hierarchical systems or beliefs overnight. 99.99% of the human population still have hierarchy-on-the-brain, mainly because the fiat-pyramid-hierarchical monetary system is STILL the main system by a vast margin. The fact that Gox has died a relatively quick death, and that the foundation is following behind is actually proof of just how quick things are starting to change. |
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I have yet to receive any notices from the IRS over any bitcoin that I sold. I don't just hand my money over to thieves.
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Have you even been to Somalia? What are you basing your knowledge of its current condition on? "Captain Phillips" with Tom Hanks??
I refuse to see that movie, because it glorifies the mighty power of the US Navy brought to bear on a bunch of skinny teenagers. I read a lot; but no, I have never been there, have you? I've never been there, and so I don't use living conditions there as an argument for or against government. I'm fairly certain they are more primitive there, but as far as their freedom goes under different conditions and degrees of government, I think someone who actually lives there could give a better evaluation. Bitcoin exists, therefore all is well with the world, and the libertarians and crypto anarchists can rest and watch with smug and knowing eyes from the distance as slowly, something amazing begins to happen...
Their once weak and needy offspring has now turned into a tough and resilient young adult, casting its eyes around for freakin' countries to conquer.
Yup. Money is the root. It is called currency because it is like the electrical system of any body or machine: It controls everything else. If you have a hierarchical-pyramid system, like we have now, all other systems become hierarchical as well. If you have a decentralized system like cryptocoins, everything else will become decentralized. Bitcoin will dissolve governments by simply being more efficient - no PR campaign or persuasion necessary. |
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I recommend just ignoring them.
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- No system of government will ever create wealth. Different governmental systems only protect the interests of different people. A Libertarian government affords little protection and favors an individuals right to choose for themselves. The protections afforded by other forms of governments come in the form of restrictions and have a high cost. The cost of regulation is a piece of freedom + the financial draw of regulatory oversight. Everybody is losing money just to protect a few people from themselves, essentially.
- The distribution of guns should not be "socialized" because that would imply that the guns weren't owned by the person carrying it. Guns should be owned diversely by society, if a warlord wants to steal your food supply then the people should outnumber the warlords... Allow the people equal access to power and the oppression will end. Gun ownership is power; think of Yin and Yang. The guns will exist and the power is real; the people deserve equal access to that power necessary to protect their lives and equalize the distribution of power. The force of the people should exceed the force of the government ALWAYS and at every point.
Are you then arguing that Somalia is or is not a libertarian utopia? I regard it as the closest thing in the world in this point and time. You are adding on to an argument in which the other poster doesn't believe it is because the people are poor and violent, and I am arguing that from a libertarian point of view, the absence of government and increased gun ownership solves these problems. However, I don't see many idealistic libertarians flocking to this paradise. Have you even been to Somalia? What are you basing your knowledge of its current condition on? "Captain Phillips" with Tom Hanks?? |
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...to live in this society, you must obey laws that you may not agree with to keep from going to jail. Raise your hand if you've downloaded any music, movies, or TV shows lately. *raises hand* If you have, you've been breaking the law. Have you gone to jail for it? I haven't. If I did, would I admit to it on an open forum? Probably not. If I did participate in that activity, would I use a VPN located in another country to protect myself? Probably. Would I admit to sending some spare satoshis to the donation btc address on piratebay.se which resolves to ip address 194.71.107.15? Probably not. Sorry, but you sound really pathetic. Like you're the type to wait for the crosswalk light to switch to "walk" even if its in the middle of the night, and well lit and no cars for over a mile in every direction. Do you really think the Feds are gonna bust down your door for streaming the final season of "Breaking Bad"? |
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To pay taxes is to be a slave.
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The IRS can only scare you into giving them your bitcoins. They certainly can't collect or prove income unless you're selling something through bitpay.
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OP's graphic is the result of a hierarchical system, cryptocoins are decentralized.
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