I am criticizing their lack of common sense compared to their business acumen... not their financial "success" compared to my own. If you can really call it success. I am quite happy being a middle class businessman, husband, father, and friend to those around me. If it would mean the rest of my life in prison away from my wife, my kids, and my family and friends, I certainly would decline participation in activities that do not promote the causes of true freedom and liberty... even those with possibilities of wealth beyond comprehension to be taken away by those prosecuting me. Simply put, there is no jealousy as your post insinuates. As to the "success" term you used... many would disagree with that label for: sitting in a prison cell awaiting extradition to a country that most likely will force you to forfeit all your locatable money and property, and imprisoning you for the rest of your life when convicted.

They knew they were breaking laws, but did little to realistically protect themselves. They were not ballers flagrantly and publicly thumbing their noses at an unjust opressive system out of some altruistic need to spread awareness for change. They did it for the money. Got greedy. Were actually scared of the authorities. And got caught because of their greed. They went to great lengths to hide and protect their true natures as pirates and thieves within the platform they created, but the technology they used came back to bite them. If you read the email evidence (their own words) you would realise this. Then they stayed in countries with extradition treaties. Would prudence not require they relocate to countries with a more favorable extradition process, or none at all. I mean really, there are approx 84 countries with either no treaties or treaties specifically exempt from extradition with the United States and other western industrialized nations.

In the end, Kim was hiding like a scared rat in a panic room in his mansion, crying and sniveling, with a shotgun at his side he was to much of a coward to use to either; go out like a Baller/Gansta taking as many of "the man" with him on his way, or to kill himself ... unlike the Gansta or Baller many thought him to be.

As to monsanto, you certainly would be breaking the law because they have patented their own "roundup-ready" seed products. They created them and they own them. To get them you must contract with monsanto to get them and the roundup fertilizer, or steal them. It's a system. Why anyone would want a monsanto seed without the fertilizer in unknown. Its kind of a rediculous proposition really.  What would not be illegal is for you to buy your own non-monsanto seeds and live a full happy life farming with them. You can certainly obtain sunflower seeds that are not patented and genetically altered by monsanto, so I find the parallel you are trying to draw irrelevent. Now, if there ever comes a day when Monsanto, Cargill, Archer Daniels Midland, or any other agricultural conglomerate tried to patent a complete naturally-occurring plant species, then we have problems (like all sunflowers, etc). That said, agricultural conglomerates abuse the legal system in ways I do not think is right. They have taken to court farmers near customers of theirs whos plants have been cross polinated/contaminated by Monsanto products, genetically altering the next generation which they claim ownership of, subsiquently claiming basically theft. This has put many out of business because of the financial costs of lawsuits. This needs to stop and the agricultural conglomerates need to compensate them. Polination can not be controlled. Its part of the natural process and the cost of doing business if you are an agri-business selling modified patented seeds.



To say "information isnt property", means you think there should be absolutely no copyrights, trademarks, or patents at all on anything.

All products and services, from the beginning of time, are information... knowledge.

It's saying all the stuff we enjoy has always existed in some form, thus it should be free to everyone regardless of the considerable research and development time, learning, and costs associated with them. To me this is no different than the socialists who want to throw everyones shit in a pile, by force, to share.

Its saying someone elses hard work means nothing because its all iinformation and knowledge based, because its derived from one basic principle. The increased awareness and knowledge of the world around us leading to our ability to manipulate the world around us into products and services we find useful.

To me, its as basic as fruit from the tree. If someone creates something society finds useful by manipulating the earths resources through discovered and applied knowledge, they and all their heirs should forever be compensated and remembered for what they have provided society, unless they choose to give it freely and agree to no compensation. Anything less than that means they, and their heirs, are providing it against their will, by force, which is tyrannical and oppressive slavery.

It's about property rights. Specifically, theft of someone elses property they made investments in creating - we call that a business enterprise for profit - makes no nevermind if its wood chairs, music, cell phones, movies, computers, software, or widgets. Pretty simple really. The "culture sharing" comment is an inept justification of simple theft to deprive the owner thereof. They were middle persons knowingly facilitating and enabling it. The only thing that makes it "cultural" is a consumers interest in using and enjoying it. Its still someone elses protected property. Many consider their clothing and cars as cultural, so they should be free... right?

Be careful what you wish for, else I might consider your watch, ring, house, and wallet as cultural.



Please explain. I have no idea what you mean. Confused about what ?

This will be a typical mafia-type prosecution under RICO. When they are eventually extradited, they will pound the smallest fish to give testimony against the other 3 to put the final nail in the coffin. Not that they need it really. The evidence is pretty substancial inclusive of in-house emails between management basically allowing, suggesting, and advocating piracy, intentional mechanisms to keep pirated content while masking their deletion by multiple file identifiers going to the same files which were specifically designed to make content owners think they were being deleted when they were not, and a complex financial system for ill-gotten gain from it all.

For being so smart, these individuals were very stupid and lacked any common sense. They knew what they were doing was illegal and to remain in any country that had extradition treaties was simply idiotic.

They deserve the decades of prison time they will get and the loss of eveything they hold dear for their stupidity.

absolutely!

all it would take is for 99% of the population to wake up and ignore their programming, manipulation, propaganda, and indoctrination they ahve been conditioned by for the last 100 years.

piece of cake.

We dont need government telling us what holds value. We can figure that out for ourselves, and we have for thousands of years. When it comes down to it, money is nothing but a barter item anyway. It just weighs less.

taken with a grain of salt.

what do you expect from a communist and marxist rag like the atlantic ?

go take a look at their leadership and their affiliations in the atlantic media company.

its typical establishment controlled media masquerading as alternative and/or independent.

here is their press release for the company:

down is up, war is peace, freedom is slavery, ignorance is strength.

... here comes the latest attack on y/our freedom, liberty, and sovereignty.

Bill HR3166. Affectionately known as the Enemy Expatriation Act, which allows the Administration to remove your citizenship after/while they have indefinately detained you for any reason whatsoever the Administration chooses, and without warrant, court order, or due-process, allowed by the Patriot Act and the National Defense Authorization Act, for,

http://www.opencongress.org/bill/112-h3166/show

Now, the real question is who does the US government consider terrorists.

-American Citizens who have been determined said by the Administration using the Patriot Act and/or NDAA without due process, court order, or warrant.
-those who prepare (resource hoarders).
-constitutionalists.
-Ron Paul supporters.
-2nd amendment advocates.
-ham and shorwave radio operators and listeners.
-patriots.
-militia.
-anyone who uses the internet for the above.

and many more - just take a gander at the FBI, NSA, and MIAC reports sent to every law enforcement agency in the USA.

the pieces will all be in place for marshal law.

Be careful what you say and who you say it to folks... der Führer is listening.

See you in the FEMA camps!

If you take from other people, you need to reimburse them for what you are taking. Simple contract. You shouldnt be taking their money through threat of force and prison just because you are lazy or have failed to prepare.

Need housing, food, and clothing ?

No problem. I will give you housing, food, and clothing in exchange for your labor and all your other worldly possessions of value.

Lets put those old military bases, old prisons, and FEMA camps to good use. You and your kids will develop the land and perform construction as needed, work on infrastructure and reclamation projects, prep, cook, clean, do dishes, wash clothing and linens, tend the fields and gardens, tend the livestock, make furniture, make clothing and linens, cut grass, cut wood, sew, etc... in other words you will work and produce for your own existence and to pay back what you are taking from others.

You wont get a car, computer, big/flat screen tv, cell phone, ipad, xbox or any other gaming station, no fancy clothing and shoes and jewelry, or anything else frivolous or otherwise not needed.

If a profit is made from your work, then you may get a little money you can put away as a managed savings to use when you no longer need assistance, minus what you owe of course..

There will be an auditorium for movies and meetings or speeches, maybe a library, community day rooms for your off-work hours where you can socialize, play games, use a computer, and watch tv, and an ourdoor activity area.

Old people unable to care for themselves or produce will get a pass from doing any work they are unable to do, but hey, I know alot of old people who do lots of arts and crafts, accounting, clerical work, and even counting widgets that could be sold for a profit.

Dont like it?

Then go get a job,or start a business, and be responsible for the family you created and take care of your family elders.

If you are going to steal my money through threat of prison and force, you should at least earn it. I know I earned the money you are stealing that pays for your benefits and privilages. I earned that money you are stealing by my labor ... my blood, sweat, and tears... my work ... and every penny you steal takes away from my ability to provide for my own family and responsibilities, but no one ever talks about that. People are losing their jobs, homes, and ability to survive to allow YOU to prosper and survive from doing absolutely nothing but getting your entitlements.

I own a product installation, repair, and service company that employs tradesmen/craftsmen and helpers learning the trade/craft.

I have more and more people with college degrees applying for positions every time I put up a help wanted ad. I never had degreed individuals asking for work before the mid 2000's, and I have been in business since 1986. I had helpers who were going through college though, but they were by no means considered a serious candidate for advancement because they stated all that they were there for was to make some money to get through school, and when school was fiished, they usually left for greener pastures.

In my opinion, college degrees are a dime a dozen and do absolutely nothing unless you can be one of the lucky few to get in on the ground floor with a large company who isnt going belly-up or cutting staff positions of people with little to no seniority.

To me, hand skills are more important than college degrees. If you can create, install, repair, and service something, you have much more value in the world today. You can sell or barter your skills for what you need to survive even if you dont have an official "job".

Much of what we do requires the craftsmen to be part roofer, electician, floorman, carpenter, plumber, mason, painter, and mathmetician. Heck, I even repair and service our vehicles from time to time to save money, so you can add part automobile mechanic to the mix.

All that said, I dont think there is anything wrong with educating ones self as much as possible, and it certainly cant hurt to be degreed. Its just adds more diversity to the mix. But to go into debt for it and depend on it in todays world is a huge mistake in my opinion.

If anything, I would tell them to get agricultural degrees if they must get a degree. Feeding the population from domestic resources will be a huge deal in the upcomming decades.

It's very true. There are horror stories nation-wide about local municiplaities initiating the agenda 21 biodiversity schedule. They do not want self sustaining bootstrapped individuals and families living a true sustainable off the grid existance.

Recently in my area, the local municipality has forced home owners to connect to the public water supply grid instead of using their water wells, under threat of fines and imprisonment for non payment of fines, using the cops to enforce it and as a security force for the contractors doing the work, tresspassing on peoples property and manipulating their property without warrant. They are also making them pay over $10,000 each for the costs of the change over.

We need to come together, get angry, and rebel.

The people create jobs, not government.

The government kills job making ability of the people by creating restrictive laws, restrictive enviromental legislation, and ratification of restricting treaties.

The government used to get their money for projects and services from mainly trade tarrifs.

They are now gone and we have WTO, NAFTA, and GATT which effectively killed our manufacturing infrastructure and domestic markets.

Gone also are the farmers who once supplied this nation with food.

You can thank your representatives and the people who keep voting them into office.

Make illegal and treasonous, under penalty of death, any lobbying of our representatives or 3rd party political advertising or donations offered or accepted and you have fixed the majority of the problems. Then vote in sane legislators who will work for us because they have no one else to work for.

Now, the govenrment is so big and so many rely on it instead of themselves, that I dont see any meaningful change coming anytime soon. The masses feel entitled whether by ideology, greed, or just plain and simple need for survival.

It all boils down to us, The People. Its our own fault for our apathy and disinterest, allowing our employees to take over and tell us, their employers, what to do and how to do it, so dont expect us to bite off the hand feeding us any time soon.

An excerpt from
They Thought They Were Free
The Germans, 1933-45
Milton Mayer
 
They Thought They Were Free, But Then It Was Too Late

"What no one seemed to notice," said a colleague of mine, a philologist, "was the ever widening gap, after 1933, between the government and the people. Just think how very wide this gap was to begin with, here in Germany. And it became always wider. You know, it doesn’t make people close to their government to be told that this is a people’s government, a true democracy, or to be enrolled in civilian defense, or even to vote. All this has little, really nothing, to do with knowing one is governing.

"What happened here was the gradual habituation of the people, little by little, to being governed by surprise; to receiving decisions deliberated in secret; to believing that the situation was so complicated that the government had to act on information which the people could not understand, or so dangerous that, even if the people could not understand it, it could not be released because of national security. And their sense of identification with Hitler, their trust in him, made it easier to widen this gap and reassured those who would otherwise have worried about it.

"This separation of government from people, this widening of the gap, took place so gradually and so insensibly, each step disguised (perhaps not even intentionally) as a temporary emergency measure or associated with true patriotic allegiance or with real social purposes. And all the crises and reforms (real reforms, too) so occupied the people that they did not see the slow motion underneath, of the whole process of government growing remoter and remoter.

"You will understand me when I say that my Middle High German was my life. It was all I cared about. I was a scholar, a specialist. Then, suddenly, I was plunged into all the new activity, as the university was drawn into the new situation; meetings, conferences, interviews, ceremonies, and, above all, papers to be filled out, reports, bibliographies, lists, questionnaires. And on top of that were the demands in the community, the things in which one had to, was ‘expected to’ participate that had not been there or had not been important before. It was all rigmarole, of course, but it consumed all one’s energies, coming on top of the work one really wanted to do. You can see how easy it was, then, not to think about fundamental things. One had no time."

"Those," I said, "are the words of my friend the baker. ‘One had no time to think. There was so much going on.’"

"Your friend the baker was right," said my colleague. "The dictatorship, and the whole process of its coming into being, was above all diverting. It provided an excuse not to think for people who did not want to think anyway. I do not speak of your ‘little men,’ your baker and so on; I speak of my colleagues and myself, learned men, mind you. Most of us did not want to think about fundamental things and never had. There was no need to. Nazism gave us some dreadful, fundamental things to think about—we were decent people—and kept us so busy with continuous changes and ‘crises’ and so fascinated, yes, fascinated, by the machinations of the ‘national enemies,’ without and within, that we had no time to think about these dreadful things that were growing, little by little, all around us. Unconsciously, I suppose, we were grateful. Who wants to think?

"To live in this process is absolutely not to be able to notice it—please try to believe me—unless one has a much greater degree of political awareness, acuity, than most of us had ever had occasion to develop. Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, ‘regretted,’ that, unless one were detached from the whole process from the beginning, unless one understood what the whole thing was in principle, what all these ‘little measures’ that no ‘patriotic German’ could resent must some day lead to, one no more saw it developing from day to day than a farmer in his field sees the corn growing. One day it is over his head.

"How is this to be avoided, among ordinary men, even highly educated ordinary men? Frankly, I do not know. I do not see, even now. Many, many times since it all happened I have pondered that pair of great maxims, Principiis obsta and Finem respice—‘Resist the beginnings’ and ‘Consider the end.’ But one must foresee the end in order to resist, or even see, the beginnings. One must foresee the end clearly and certainly and how is this to be done, by ordinary men or even by extraordinary men? Things might have. And everyone counts on that might.

"Your ‘little men,’ your Nazi friends, were not against National Socialism in principle. Men like me, who were, are the greater offenders, not because we knew better (that would be too much to say) but because we sensed better. Pastor Niemöller spoke for the thousands and thousands of men like me when he spoke (too modestly of himself) and said that, when the Nazis attacked the Communists, he was a little uneasy, but, after all, he was not a Communist, and so he did nothing; and then they attacked the Socialists, and he was a little uneasier, but, still, he was not a Socialist, and he did nothing; and then the schools, the press, the Jews, and so on, and he was always uneasier, but still he did nothing. And then they attacked the Church, and he was a Churchman, and he did something—but then it was too late."

"Yes," I said.

"You see," my colleague went on, "one doesn’t see exactly where or how to move. Believe me, this is true. Each act, each occasion, is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join with you in resisting somehow. You don’t want to act, or even talk, alone; you don’t want to ‘go out of your way to make trouble.’ Why not?—Well, you are not in the habit of doing it. And it is not just fear, fear of standing alone, that restrains you; it is also genuine uncertainty.

"Uncertainty is a very important factor, and, instead of decreasing as time goes on, it grows. Outside, in the streets, in the general community, ‘everyone’ is happy. One hears no protest, and certainly sees none. You know, in France or Italy there would be slogans against the government painted on walls and fences; in Germany, outside the great cities, perhaps, there is not even this. In the university community, in your own community, you speak privately to your colleagues, some of whom certainly feel as you do; but what do they say? They say, ‘It’s not so bad’ or ‘You’re seeing things’ or ‘You’re an alarmist.’

"And you are an alarmist. You are saying that this must lead to this, and you can’t prove it. These are the beginnings, yes; but how do you know for sure when you don’t know the end, and how do you know, or even surmise, the end? On the one hand, your enemies, the law, the regime, the Party, intimidate you. On the other, your colleagues pooh-pooh you as pessimistic or even neurotic. You are left with your close friends, who are, naturally, people who have always thought as you have.

"But your friends are fewer now. Some have drifted off somewhere or submerged themselves in their work. You no longer see as many as you did at meetings or gatherings. Informal groups become smaller; attendance drops off in little organizations, and the organizations themselves wither. Now, in small gatherings of your oldest friends, you feel that you are talking to yourselves, that you are isolated from the reality of things. This weakens your confidence still further and serves as a further deterrent to—to what? It is clearer all the time that, if you are going to do anything, you must make an occasion to do it, and then you are obviously a troublemaker. So you wait, and you wait.

"But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes. That’s the difficulty. If the last and worst act of the whole regime had come immediately after the first and smallest, thousands, yes, millions would have been sufficiently shocked—if, let us say, the gassing of the Jews in ’43 had come immediately after the ‘German Firm’ stickers on the windows of non-Jewish shops in ’33. But of course this isn’t the way it happens. In between come all the hundreds of little steps, some of them imperceptible, each of them preparing you not to be shocked by the next. Step C is not so much worse than Step B, and, if you did not make a stand at Step B, why should you at Step C? And so on to Step D.

"And one day, too late, your principles, if you were ever sensible of them, all rush in upon you. The burden of self-deception has grown too heavy, and some minor incident, in my case my little boy, hardly more than a baby, saying ‘Jewish swine,’ collapses it all at once, and you see that everything, everything, has changed and changed completely under your nose. The world you live in—your nation, your people—is not the world you were born in at all. The forms are all there, all untouched, all reassuring, the houses, the shops, the jobs, the mealtimes, the visits, the concerts, the cinema, the holidays. But the spirit, which you never noticed because you made the lifelong mistake of identifying it with the forms, is changed. Now you live in a world of hate and fear, and the people who hate and fear do not even know it themselves; when everyone is transformed, no one is transformed. Now you live in a system which rules without responsibility even to God. The system itself could not have intended this in the beginning, but in order to sustain itself it was compelled to go all the way.

"You have gone almost all the way yourself. Life is a continuing process, a flow, not a succession of acts and events at all. It has flowed to a new level, carrying you with it, without any effort on your part. On this new level you live, you have been living more comfortably every day, with new morals, new principles. You have accepted things you would not have accepted five years ago, a year ago, things that your father, even in Germany, could not have imagined.

"Suddenly it all comes down, all at once. You see what you are, what you have done, or, more accurately, what you haven’t done (for that was all that was required of most of us: that we do nothing). You remember those early meetings of your department in the university when, if one had stood, others would have stood, perhaps, but no one stood. A small matter, a matter of hiring this man or that, and you hired this one rather than that. You remember everything now, and your heart breaks. Too late. You are compromised beyond repair.

"What then? You must then shoot yourself. A few did. Or ‘adjust’ your principles. Many tried, and some, I suppose, succeeded; not I, however. Or learn to live the rest of your life with your shame. This last is the nearest there is, under the circumstances, to heroism: shame. Many Germans became this poor kind of hero, many more, I think, than the world knows or cares to know."

I said nothing. I thought of nothing to say.

"I can tell you," my colleague went on, "of a man in Leipzig, a judge. He was not a Nazi, except nominally, but he certainly wasn’t an anti-Nazi. He was just—a judge. In ’42 or ’43, early ’43, I think it was, a Jew was tried before him in a case involving, but only incidentally, relations with an ‘Aryan’ woman. This was ‘race injury,’ something the Party was especially anxious to punish. In the case at bar, however, the judge had the power to convict the man of a ‘nonracial’ offense and send him to an ordinary prison for a very long term, thus saving him from Party ‘processing’ which would have meant concentration camp or, more probably, deportation and death. But the man was innocent of the ‘nonracial’ charge, in the judge’s opinion, and so, as an honorable judge, he acquitted him. Of course, the Party seized the Jew as soon as he left the courtroom."

"And the judge?"

"Yes, the judge. He could not get the case off his conscience—a case, mind you, in which he had acquitted an innocent man. He thought that he should have convicted him and saved him from the Party, but how could he have convicted an innocent man? The thing preyed on him more and more, and he had to talk about it, first to his family, then to his friends, and then to acquaintances. (That’s how I heard about it.) After the ’44 Putsch they arrested him. After that, I don’t know."

I said nothing.

"Once the war began," my colleague continued, "resistance, protest, criticism, complaint, all carried with them a multiplied likelihood of the greatest punishment. Mere lack of enthusiasm, or failure to show it in public, was ‘defeatism.’ You assumed that there were lists of those who would be ‘dealt with’ later, after the victory. Goebbels was very clever here, too. He continually promised a ‘victory orgy’ to ‘take care of’ those who thought that their ‘treasonable attitude’ had escaped notice. And he meant it; that was not just propaganda. And that was enough to put an end to all uncertainty.

"Once the war began, the government could do anything ‘necessary’ to win it; so it was with the ‘final solution of the Jewish problem,’ which the Nazis always talked about but never dared undertake, not even the Nazis, until war and its ‘necessities’ gave them the knowledge that they could get away with it. The people abroad who thought that war against Hitler would help the Jews were wrong. And the people in Germany who, once the war had begun, still thought of complaining, protesting, resisting, were betting on Germany’s losing the war. It was a long bet. Not many made it."

 

 

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Copyright notice: Excerpt from pages 166-73 of They Thought They Were Free: The Germans, 1933-45 by Milton Mayer, published by the University of Chicago Press. ©1955, 1966 by the University of Chicago. All rights reserved. This text may be used and shared in accordance with the fair-use provisions of U.S. copyright law, and it may be archived and redistributed in electronic form, provided that this entire notice, including copyright information, is carried and provided that the University of Chicago Press is notified and no fee is charged for access. Archiving, redistribution, or republication of this text on other terms, in any medium, requires the consent of the University of Chicago Press. (Footnotes and other references included in the book may have been removed from this online version of the text.)
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Notice sent dec. 27. 2011, 04:18 EST
 

Really?? Would you infringe on me knowing that there was a high likelihood of me killing you for doing it. Of course not, unless you have mental defect(s). The movies are not very accurate in terms of true history, so you really shouldnt be basing your debates on them. Instead use some common sense. The vast majority of the criminal activity, tyranny, and oppression of rights comes from the state/church, the king, the pharoh, the rulers. Not the common man under common law with an eye for an eye mentality, and rarely did crime ocurr within a community. Sure there were rare ocassions of outsiders coming in, only to be cast out, or they outsiders developed trade partnerships or welcomed them in kind for their participation.

That would be unlawfully infringing on you. I would not be participating in such endeavors, however the church-connected state would, and did frequently.

This is starting to be like debating with a drunk or a child. How close am I ??

What does that even mean?? Unlike you, I have demonstrated through my posts that I know precisely what socialism is in its 3 historic forms, so your irrational comment makes absolutely no sense. It sounds like a child rant, "I know you are but what am I?".


Of course it has to be owned and regulated. How else will it be produced, distributed, and exchanged?? How would you prevent someone from taking all of any of the resources or products?? The honor system?? You are being a bit naive.


Then those people you mentioned are the central authority who would be owning , controlling, and/or regulating. Again you are being naive to even suggest the possibility of everyone agreeing on a community scale, let alone regional, national, or worldwide level. How would you stop someone from taking it all or more than their fair share?? Its theirs right?? How do you decide the criteria by which it is decided what their fair share is?? Body weight?? Each person gets an equal amount?? Who is the decider of that criteria?? I can imaging a 450 pound fat guy fighting like hell and justifying for alot more "resources" than a 90 pound petite womanor a child. How do you stop infighting when resources and products get low?? Maybe by ownership and regulation?? Force?? If everyone owns a cornfield how do you make decisions on who gets what??  By regulation. Who regulates? Who uses force? Ownership takes care of all that and more. I regulate by my decision to trade, barter, or sell its products. Your utopian dream is a nightmare that will never exist. If someone has more force than you, they will justify that their fair share will be alot more than yours. Dont be naive.


Then the strongest and fittest are the central authority by sheer force. They make the rules and enforce them by force. Sound familiar??


and your clarification has been rebutted and done away with in my previous posts. You have the amount of rights you can protect through force if they are infringed upon. I know I can protect what I have, or will die trying. My kids are worth it.
 

O course these and every other person is of some use in a society or community. Thats where trade and barter happen. Each person brings something to the table. Others dont own it. If you do not contribute, your church, charitable group, or family and friends help take care of you ... or you die.

My proof of claim is common sense. There was alot of common sense back then. My proof is also YOU. If you knew you would have your hand chopped off if you stole, would you steal, or work for what you need?? If you knew you would be killed for unlawfully killing someone else, would you still kill them?? If you knew you would be castrated for raping a woman, would you still rape her?? If you knew that you would be shot and killed for infringing on me or my property, would you still infringe on it, or would you develop labor and trade relationships to get what you need to survive??


neither of us truly believes that.


edit: and i needed to add my support for for following:


Sounds like most of our lazy youth today that had bad parenting. The innovation incentive makes alot of sense too.

I am sure all those socialists busting their asses will appreciate those lazy socialists who want everything but do nothing ... oh wait ... there are no ass busting socialists. So you will have a world of lazy people who feel entitled to everything but want to do nothing to get it.

I wonder how thats supposed to work.

Ah ... the computers will do it all !

The closet zeitgeisters and venus project entheusiasts are now uncovered !

the sad state of affairs is that he is partially right.

we just dont know that we are socialists.

its a central authority taking all your rights and wealth from you and giving you privilages and benefits you need to apply for, that they can restrict and regulate at their whim, while skimming the majority of the wealth and property anbd distributing amongst themselves for their administrative "work". Our current socialist government only steals from us and creates paperwork and jobs with bloated salaries and benefits. It benefits our oppressors... not us.

I would never be a part of any system of control over other people, other than my children, and only until such time as they decided to strike out on their own or had the intellect and experience to make rational and reasonable decisions for themselves.

I am not sure you know what socialism truly is...

If you mean classic socialism, how do you think the means of production, distribution, and exchange can be owned or regulated without some central authority ??

Even if you take it to the Marxist extreme of a transitional social state between the overthrow of capitalism and the realization of communism, how do you think it can be done without a central authority ??

and if you take it to its most current version of an RBE-type existance where everyone throws their shit in a huge pile and shares, how will you get them to throw their shit into that pile without direct force ?? And who will be doing it if not a government or UN-like central authority making mandates and enforcing them ??

Do you realize that under classic common law where there were no government and statutes, communities worked together in harmony and agreement, while retaining ALL of their birth rights, producing, distributing, and exchanging as they saw fit anmd as needed ??

It was how the world survived before government and politics. Their politics was surviving by working together.

They also took care of criminals with an eye for an eye, and unsuprisingly there was little crime with such penalties.

The only rights you have are the ones you can protect, through as much force as necessary to stop any infringement thats ocurring. This is where communities come in. We all need to come together as fellow humans. 7 billion citizens against a few thousand who wish to control us. No contest. No weaponry is powerful enough to stop the level of force 7 billion people possess. Its ok to be scared and fearful. Its part of the human condition. Cowardice is a different story. If you stand up for nothing, you will fall for anything. Its time to stand up. We have the power. We have our rights. We have the force. You are to scared and conditioned to realize it. If I had to die today to make this world better for my kids, I would do it in a heartbeat. Would I be scared?? Absolutely. Would I be a coward and say, "screw it- let my kids deal with it". Never, not on your life.