If cypherdoc is correct (I think not) then the short-gold ETFs will lose people a lot of money since the USD will be stored in failing banks. You'd want USD paper notes on your possession.

Gold markets are debt based too, didn't you know?


All that was expected was to keep the banks afloat and the debt condition stable.

Potential future money:

You don;'t know what a ponzi scheme is. It is when investors pay into a scheme that pays back returns with new investment.

People clearly value gold highly, have you been looking?

Gold has a stable supply, it is durable, it is divisible and it is largely homogeneous (Just different purities which still contain the identical element).

Peter Schiff is very intelligent, he does make clear mistakes though. He says gold has intrinsic value which is a bad descriptor.

Your last line is so ironic or maybe you are trying to be wrong on purpose?

I think you need to look up the definition of a ponzi scheme. Many of the paper markets could be seen as a ponzi scheme.

People do transact in gold and Peter Schiff is also making a gold bank debit card which is interesting.

Gold is seen as a store of value, so even if not used directly in exchange it is used in savings because it's perfect for that purpose.

Except the markets are ruined by intervention.

Why do you think USD will beat gold?


If the derivatives are going to fail then this is bullish for gold I think. People will want a safe haven as they wake up to the mess of the paper markets and if the commodities paper markets fail then the manipulation in gold and silver will go away.

But the federal reserve and US government will try hard to keep the system running. It's going to fail eventually though, through hyper-inflation or through mass debt default (Possibly expect a mixture through monetary intervention battles with debt crises).

Dollars has virtually no non-monetary and non-investment value.

Your point?


You think USD will do very well because the federal reserve will stop creating money which is a ridiculous assumption.

I would just like to note that the exchanges' spot price of gold has not fallen through the lower trend channel line. Good to look at the charts on the longer-term perspective. It went over the channel for a short while but is back within it.

USD is contradictory to USTs because to keep the UST bubble going the USD has to be destroyed.

And these next bailouts will no doubt be funded through inflation.

Or by using paper. People are duped by that all the time.

No, I was being sarcastic. I was pretending to be cypherdoc with the conspiracy that the federal reserve is out to kill the banking system, the housing market, the stock market and all other bubbles so it can "save the USD" and destroy gold. It's the complete opposite of what we know. Also gold markets depend on international circumstances not just the USA. I guess cypherdoc thinks all central banks have now turned into "STOP THE PRINTING PRESS" mode. It's funny because they are now going to do another round of bank bailouts to cover the losses of the Greek default.


I think that needs to go to number one. Also by management I'm sure you meant manipulation as a better term.

The federal reserve in creating new money now. How else do they fund the debt ponzi scheme?

Monetary creation is not quantitative easing. Quantitative easing is a label slapped on a particular round of monetary creation used as a mind game to pump confidence into stock markets.

I guess I should hope you are right so we can buy gold and silver at ridiculously low prices again.

You seem to know everything about Ben Bernanke's mind, maybe you are Ben Bernanke?

Bernanke obviously wants to destroy the stock market and cause havoc for the banks. The federal reserve wants another political drama but this time I guess they will just allow banks to fail. What will the US government do afterwards? Create a single nationalised bank?

It totally makes sense, thank you.

Oh, all the fake paper gold... hmmm I suppose they'll ensure no one knows by forcing people never to take delivery on their paper. If people demand physical gold, the police force will send anyone that disobeys into gulags. This makes total sense. In fact, the US government will do a deal with all other governments to fix the price of gold indefinitely through force, removing all market influence!

Gold and silver are definitely turning into bear markets now. And the USD will rule the world with the new US centralised bank and police state! Thanks, Mr. Bernanke it all makes sense to me now.

In all seriousness: I really can't figure out what is going on in your head, sorry.

The worst time to sell is on a dip. It's the best time to buy. Sensible to allow prices to stabilise though. Don't catch the falling knife as they say.

Max Keiser and Stacy Herbert comment on it here -> http://ia700707.us.archive.org/28/items/MaxKeiserRadio-TheTruthAboutMarkets-24September2011/TaM-240911.mp3

I think everyone is a little bit hasty to praise cypherdoc on getting the predictions correct. Wasn't the ultimate prediction here that gold was going into a longer term downward trend? This will not be vindicated for some time yet. This is what I have been disagreeing with. I think the physical prices for gold will only go higher and the futures will have to eventually follow unless the futures markets go into haywire and possibly crumble into death which I don't think will (be allowed to) happen.


So you think the exchange spot price will go up past $50 for silver and $2000 for gold, but then turn into a major reversal like cypherdoc talks about?

Some interesting things to note:
CME raised the margins for silver and gold again, which apparently is supposed to calm down markets but it certainly cannot because more long positions will be liquidated.
The same bailout message again: http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/markets/g20-ministers-pledge-to-maximise-euro-zone-bailout-fund/story-e6frg91o-1226144666578
Let's not bailout Greece, give the money to the banks instead!!!! http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/eu/8786945/1.75-trillion-deal-to-save-the-euro.html

In '08 remember, the spot price of gold went down but not by very much. But people now actually know what happened afterwards, there were tons of monetary stimulus and bailouts. It is important that governments and central banks will do the same things again and again and again.

Economic crisis? Just create tons of money to cover the bad debts and investments! Pump up the bubbles! Even if the bubbles have tons of holes in them, just keep pumping to stop them from collapsing completely.

It's obvious what will continue to happen time and time again. It'd blatantly obvious. No government or central banks will allow price deflation to happen. They prefer lots of inflation. They convince people the inflation is not very bad by modifying how they calculate the inflation figures to make them look less severe.

Thanks a lot miscreanity. I've looked around for interest data before, including on the cme website but not enough to find out the raw data which backs up the knowledge on fake futures. The CME Group likes to make the data reasonable hard to find.

It's all interesting stuff, has anyone made any interesting graphs on the data such as disappearing futures over time?

I'm sure the institutions behind the paper fraud has enough money and influence to prevent a collapse of the futures markets entirely but to do this eventually they still will have to allow prices to rise. I guess we can hope more people demand physical delivery on the futures markets. It's also good information to share.

Thanks again for the information.

I suppose the fundamentals are that the US and world economies are in a dire condition and will be for some time. It is obvious how stock markets have been pumped into bubbles which have more to crash than in '08. Stimulus cant pump the markets up any more I don't think and any stimulus only delays and makes the inevitable even greater. It's the end of the game, soon if not very soon.

I can't remember what I was thinking then, sorry. 

I've read that futures with no asset backing are considered naked shorts. Several places refer to them that way. It all depends on the person I suppose as to how they use semantics.

Why would CBs want to sell gold if it would spark a panic? It would kill confidence because people will think governments are in major problems. Surely the CBs want to continue inflating away the debts and financial problems because that also has a contradictory effect of increasing confidence because people are stupid enough to believe money inflation is good for economies. It certainly increases stock market confidence. Selling gold would kill confidence I think. It's contradictory but its because people have been tricked.

Thanks but I don't know what data proves that contracts are not going to delivery.

Also I should say silver is rife with manipulation. I read the premiums over spot have increased around many silver dealers after this crash in the exchange's spot price. I bet it will get really hard to buy significant amounts of physical silver at these low prices unless those premiums are significantly large.