^ This is the exact reason I don't want to deal with this shit anymore.

1. I explicitly promise not to provide arbitration, and don't charge a fee. It's like going to a soup kitchen and screaming they don't offer clothes.

2. Screenshots can be faked, and even if the screenshot is real, how can I tell it's with the real party. It could be a conversation with his buddy? I've literally had a scammer try get his money out of an escrow before by using faked emails, and after I pushed back on his request he ended up releasing the money to the seller.

4. Yes, if you want arbitration use someone who offers it. They will charge a small fee (generally) and actually be aware of the terms of the deal and the participants. The way bithra is setup, I literally don't even know the involved parties.

After a lot of thinking, I've disabled creating new escrows on bithra. The main point of bithra was to remove the incentive from scamming, it was never (by design) able to stop it. I still think it's a cool idea, and by and large has helped a lot of people; but I'd rather not get dragged into this crap when things go wrong. In kassadin5's specific case for example, while I feel for him, he's used a free escrow service with full awareness that it doesn't provide arbitration and then jumps to accuse me of scamming when he doesn't get arbitration. Incidentally, I've spent >1 BTC out of my own pocket helping people who were scammed while using bithra (like tricked into releasing the funds),  (as some of the previous comments will attest to). There's a hand-full of uncompleted escrow addresses, if they're not resolved within a year of creation I'll sweep them into some public donation addresses. No extensions of existing escrows will be granted, they'll need to be terminated within a year.


I'll reopen it for new escrows if I have the time and energy to develop a system where the receiver needs to provide a deposit, to prove he's serious about the trade and will suffer a financial loss if he's merely trolling.

It's not a flaw in how the system is made, it's by design. It's a free service, that is designed to take the upside out of scamming someone. It does exactly what it's supposed to do, and is strictly better than just directly sending someone money. On every page of the site (especially so on the page before you send money, it reminds you there is no arbitration).

I think you might be misunderstanding me a little. If your screenshot are accurate, then you were unfortunately scammed, but a few skype screenshot is not enough for me to subvert the promises and provably fair system of bithra. I don't mean to imply you are not telling the truth, as I'm sure you are -- but screenshots are not exactly solid proof, and bitha offers no arbitration nor the is even aware of the details of the trade.

First off, I'm very sorry you are getting scammed. I made bithra to try stop scams, so it sucks it's being used for one. However, bithra is doing what it was designed to do: unless you release the money, the scammer won't make a cent.

As for why I can't release the money to you, it would explicitly go against what bithra was designed for. For one, the details of the trade were never entered into the system, so I have no idea what the money for for. I have no way to prove if the skype screenshot are real, or if they are indeed from the right person.  And most importantly, it would go against the promise birtha (and the provably fair) makes.


I guess the big flaw of bithra, is that it is not very useful for when you don't trust the receiver of the money (the seller). As they have a cost-free way to have you lock up your funds, with your only hope negotiating with them. I'm thinking a good way to solve this, would be have untrusted destinations commit to the deal with a sort of deposit, to remove the "cost free" scamming.

Undetectably*  needs to be inserted in there. There's definitely some counterparty risk that a fully "smart casino" could eliminate, but unless the UX is great people are going to prefer more traditional casinos, I think.

I really don't think bitcoin's scripting language is powerful enough to do anything of the sort, unless the gambling game was something along the lines of: "First one to claim the money, gets it!"

The ethereum contract stuff does look powerful enough, but suffers from big UX problems and can't run fully unattended (afaik).

I have never heard a coherent argument about how a provably fair site can undetectable cheat you. If they credit your deposit, you set your client seed, all the bets check out, and they honor your withdrawal -- then you simply were not cheated, you got unlucky. Possibly very unlucky. Maybe the rolls you pulled were so bad, it was a 1-in-a-million chance of being normal? But that means not much more than you were super unlucky..

(And that is the whole beauty of provably fair)

You forgot to make use of annoying formatting

Just be a little patient, 12 hours isn't much in the scheme of things. If after a few days you still don't have your money then will be the time to cry scam.

Also I'm not sure how cloudbet works, but if it's like a lot of casinos and the withdrawal amount is still in your account: don't re-gamble it. Just wait until they process it.  

Oh, and you might want to change this to a cumulative chart (or add it underneath):

Ah, that makes sense.



I think you might be better off using something like <total wagered> or <total wagered in the $TIMEPERIOD> or something like that. Any ranking that doesn't show the most popular sites at the top, I think is a little flawed. I guess the only problem with showing the most popular casinos first is it helps further entrench them, but I also think that's probably what most players want anyway.  


P.S. save your time and add JackpotRacer to your ignore list, he's incoherent at the best of times

I'm a big fan of the idea of this site, from what I've seen this site and dicesites.com are the only two not totally corrupt and shady bitcoin review sites out there.

Out of interest, what is the criteria you use on your homepage to order casinos? Also I'm not sure your leaderboard is totally correct. Currently you're showing in the last 7 days:

* BetterBets ~33425 BTC wagered  (dicesites shows 1249)
* PrimeDice (looks correct enough)
* BitDice.me ~6326.0412 BTC wagered  (looks on the high side, but ok)
* Bustabit 4976.2108 BTC wagered (seems right, exact would be 4896)


Anyway, keep up the good work!

The vast majority was from people I was speaking to/known before (like some of the previous MP investors), and they had already invested the amount they felt comfortable with, so I don't think there was much chance of close the gap. (The last 24h barely had over a bitcoin invested )

There's been very little token purchases after the first day, with all the investors I knew to be buying tokens have already done so and only a ~1/3rd sold. So instead of wasting everyones time, I've issued a full refund on your bustabit account  (+0.01 BTC as a thanks).

All larger withdrawals I will likely be processing manually and I'll try contact investors via email to confirm with them the instructions are correct. So please be patient, and give me 12+ hours to process the withdrawal.

Thanks everyone, and I'll try release something more appealing in the near future =)

There's been very little token purchases after the first day, with all the investors I knew to be buying tokens have already done so and only a ~1/3rd sold. So instead of wasting everyones time, I've issued a full refund on your bustabit account  (+0.01 BTC as a thanks).

All larger withdrawals I will likely be processing manually and I'll try contact investors via email to confirm with them the instructions are correct. So please be patient, and give me 12+ hours to process the withdrawal.

Thanks everyone, and I'll try release something more appealing in the near future =)

Just to be clear, I'd only be buying them back from people selling them.


huh? If all I wanted to do was lower my volatility, I could easily allow bankroll investors and double the size of the bankroll overnight. It would probably take two or three days to implement (bustabit already has a concept of a bankroll, it's just purely provided by me at the moment). The problem is easier to solve (people's divestment and investments would be queued until between games). By implementing my own crowd-fund bankroll, it'd literally save me months of development time, be less risky, and I wouldn't be outsourcing perhaps the most critical part of a casino away. It would be a lot safer for me to personally invest in (no counterparty risk). Oh yeah, and I don't need to give a 3rd party half the expected earnings

MoneyPot definitely has advantages, especially for a new casino wanting to leverage its bankroll and players. But keep in mind, BaB is pretty established and probably doing >5 or 6x the volume.



From my conversations with other investors, that seems like the universally desired solution

Originally when I owned MoneyPot that was always my goal, but the problem is it's really a very tricky to do so for a few technical reasons. For one MoneyPot is based a lot on atomic bets, and allows investors to invest/divest at will. Because bustabit isn't atomic, this poses a lot of problems. (i.e. for instance, imagine someone bet 1 BTC and the game has got to 10x and they still haven't cashed out ... smart investors would divest before the game ended)

But even if the technical issues were overcome (which they could be with enough time and energy) it doesn't really make much sense from a business perspective. I'd obviously like to lower my personal variance by withdrawing my money from the bankroll, but based on the last 6 months of volume .... that's literally a 500 BTC/year fee =/. For that price, I'll rather a few more restless nights

MP is a great deal for new casinos, but if you've already got the money for a bankroll (and the whole system already built) I don't think you can really justify it.



Just pulled a number out of my ass. Originally I was going to do it more like an auction (kind of how mycellium did it), but I didn't want to part with it too cheap, which would involve setting a min value. And at that point, I figured it was just cleaner to establish a value for people to say if it's worth it. Most of the value (imo) is in it's future potential earning, so is really hard to put a figure on it.


Yeah, it'd rather put a too-high value than a too-low one (as you say, there's no cost to me if it doesn't fully sell). But that said, I genuinely think it's a good deal for investors.  I mean if you look around the space, there's pretty much just shit on offer while this is a business that's already established and has a lot of growing room.

It's being intentionally hidden to prevent a vicious cycle of people not wanting to buy tokens if they're not sure if all the tokens will sell or not. Assuming the crowd sale is successful, I'll provide transparent proof of liabilities which will allow token holders to make sure the correct amount of tokens have been issued (i.e. they weren't oversold)

The Just-Dice / bitdice.me style is great for raising a bankroll to support large bets, but doesn't directly allow for much more. My goal is to use the funds for expansion and what not.