Bitcoin Forum
May 13, 2024, 02:20:55 PM *
News: Latest Bitcoin Core release: 27.0 [Torrent]
 
  Home Help Search Login Register More  
  Show Posts
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 [12] 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 ... 169 »
221  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: How to NOT be a victim of a sting operation on: February 08, 2014, 02:34:17 AM
Damn you 10th Amendment! Grin

"powers not granted to the federal government"


We may need preemption at the federal level before we see any clarity in this issue.
222  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Gavin will visit the Council on Foreign Relations on: February 08, 2014, 02:00:05 AM
Is there a youtube link or something that I have missed?

http://www.cfr.org/economics/voices-next-generation-gavin-andresen-bitcoin/p32339
223  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Florida men arrested for trading bitcoins!!!! on: February 08, 2014, 12:36:56 AM
It's pretty simple really. You can use Bitcoins in the US, just don't use them for any kind of illegal or criminal activity. This is no different from someone using fiat to buy stolen credit cards, drugs, fake passport, etc etc. I'd imagine that the government loves busting people that use Bitcoins for illegal activities because it gives them proof to paint Bitcoin as an evil criminal currency.

+1

224  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: CEO OF BITCOIN EXCHANGE ARRESTED on: February 08, 2014, 12:23:51 AM
Money Laundering is when you try to hide the origins of funds though:

Placement - the initial entry of the "dirty" cash or proceeds of crime into the financial system.

Layering - attempt to separate illicit funds from its source.

Integration -  the money is returned to the launderer from what seem to be legitimate sources.
225  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: How Can You Not Trust Mark Karpeles (Gox CEO)? on: February 08, 2014, 12:10:45 AM
226  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: How to NOT be a victim of a sting operation on: February 08, 2014, 12:03:38 AM
To be involved in money transmission you must be transmitting money. The question then becomes what is money? That has to be defined somehow.

I am not a lawyer either but I believe this is where you are incorrect.

virtual currency is "other value that substitutes for currency." 

- at least according to FinCEN.

so unless you or someone can take that to court and challenge it, so that is pretty much the law in the US.
227  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: How to NOT be a victim of a sting operation on: February 07, 2014, 11:42:43 PM
Running an unlicensed money transmission in Florida is illegal.
http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2011/560.125

That's what I'm trying to tell you. Bitcoin is not yet defined as money, either by state or federal.

This judge disagrees: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2013/08/federal-judge-bitcoin-a-currency-can-be-regulated-under-american-law/

Yes, I know about the Pirate case. It's different. It does start the outline of some legal precedent, but that's not the same as written law. Judges can't legislate only adjudicate, and again there are two separate levels (fed/state).

This was a very specific ruling with regards to a very specific case:

****
It is clear that Bitcoin can be used as money. It can be used to purchase goods or services, and as Shavers stated, used to pay for individual living expenses. The only limitation of Bitcoin is that it is limited to those places that accept it as currency. However, it can also be exchanged for conventional currencies, such as the U.S. dollar, Euro, Yen, and Yuan. Therefore, Bitcoin is a currency or form of money, and investors wishing to invest in BTCST provided an investment of money.
****

This ruling does not, however, allow the Texas Department of Banking to declare bitcoin a "currency" and regulate it as "currency exchange" instead of "money transmission."
228  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: How to NOT be a victim of a sting operation on: February 07, 2014, 11:29:50 PM
So if I am reading that right would the following scenerio place ebayers in same bucket?

Potentially.  It is a matter of "fact and circumstances."

No clear cut rules yet. 
229  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: How to NOT be a victim of a sting operation on: February 07, 2014, 11:28:18 PM
Evidently you can buy and sell bitcoin for personal use.  Miner's can also sell bitcoin for personal use (electricity, rent, goods and services etc).  This activity does not require registration with Fincen.

However if you buy and sell bitcoin, "as a business" you could be seen as a "money transmitter" in some states.  The regulations and the clarification of these regulation are VERY vague.  

And if you buy and sell bitcoin with someone who is involved in criminal activity that definitely makes you complicit, even if you have NO knowledge of their activity.  

Wrong again.

I guess you're just pulling this stuff out of your arse. You can buy/sell bitcoin for your own benefit. That includes profit. The catch is it has to be your own benefit, ie, you can't buy/sell on behalf of clients (like exchanges). Again, that's federal.

As for U.S. states it is currently undefined. The arrests in Florida would not have happened, I'll almost guarantee, if there was no mention of criminal intent.

Running an unlicensed money transmission in Florida is illegal.
http://www.flsenate.gov/Laws/Statutes/2011/560.125

This is also makes it a federal offence:

"is operated without an appropriate money transmitting license in a State where such operation is punishable as a misdemeanor or a felony under State law, whether or not the defendant knew that the operation was required to be licensed or that the operation was so punishable;"
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/1960


230  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: How Can You Not Trust Mark Karpeles (Gox CEO)? on: February 07, 2014, 11:24:29 PM
too many frappuccinos



231  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: How to NOT be a victim of a sting operation on: February 07, 2014, 11:20:34 PM
Yep.

The complaint against the guy who was arrested a couple weeks ago (not Shrem) said that an undercover informant attempted to buy some Bitcoin and said "I need these Bitcoin because I've got my eye on a sweet bag of cocaine on Silk Road" or some similarly ridiculously stupid thing.

The seller ignored the request and never sold him coins (but they still mention it in the complaint which is interesting)

What guy? Someone on reddit? They still charged him with it even if he ignored it?


No the guy who was arrested same day as Shrem, same, case, same complaint...I don't recall his name

Robert Faiella (BTCKing)
232  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: How to NOT be a victim of a sting operation on: February 07, 2014, 11:17:03 PM
From what I can gather from reading this thread (and the articles), it seems that you can have BTC and sell it on something like Coinbase for USD, or you can use it to make purchases on sites that accept BTC. But you can't sell BTC to another person as you would be functioning as a form of money transmitter which in that technical legal mumbo-jumbo makes sense. Is there somebody that can confirm the veracity of these statements or am I way off base?

If I am reading this correctly, then where does gifting BTC fall under? Additionally, if you traded BTC for something like an alt-currency without the use of a regulation-compliant exchange where does that fall under?

Evidently you can buy and sell bitcoin for personal use.  Miner's can also sell bitcoin for personal use (electricity, rent, goods and services etc).  This activity does not require registration with Fincen.

However if you buy and sell bitcoin, "as a business" you could be seen as a "money transmitter" in some states.  The regulations and the clarification of these regulation are VERY vague.  

And if you buy and sell bitcoin with someone who is involved in criminal activity that definitely makes you complicit, even if you have NO knowledge of their activity.  
233  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: How to NOT be a victim of a sting operation on: February 07, 2014, 10:46:23 PM
Of course bitcoin isn't money by law and therefore this can't be considered "Money laundering"

This is patently NOT true.

Bitcoin according to FinCEN is "other value that substitutes for currency" as per FinCEN's FINAL RULE:  Bank Secrecy Act Regulations; Definitions and Other Regulations Relating to Money Services Businesses
76 C.F.R. 43585

***
The regulatory definition of ‘‘money transmission services’’ includes the phrase ‘‘or other value that substitutes for currency’’ to state that businesses that accept stored value or currency equivalents as a funding source and transmit that value are providing money transmission services.
***

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2011-07-21/pdf/2011-18309.pdf

The FinCEN guidance is federal not state, and it doesn't define Bitcoin as a currency. This charge is apparently in violation of Florida state law which prohibits “currency or payment instruments exceeding $300 but less than $20,000 in any 12-month period”.

To my knowledge no state has declared Bitcoin is currency. It hasn't been declared a 'payment instrument' either. If these people met to transfer two wheelbarrows full of grass in exchange for 30K would the arrest have been made?

We need some lawyers on this. The State/vested interests are clearly starting to push back on Bitcoin now, probably betting individuals by themselves won't have super legal defense resources.

Doesn't have to be defined as currency.  If you are transmitting bitcoin, "as a business" you are subject to Federal AMK/KYC/CFT/CIP regulations and State Money Transmitter regulations.  State to State regulation vary but clearly Florida has taken a stand.

YES we do need to rally but unfortunately as a decentralized movement there is no centralized effort. You have The Bitcoin Foundation and dozens of other foundations and groups popping up daily.  If "Bitcoin" were a centralized company, you can be certain that millions of that 10 Billion money supply would have been spend on Lawyers and Lobbyists and efforts to clarify or change state and federal regulations.

As it is we have to rely on the outcome of these current cases to see where the chips will fall.

 
234  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: How to NOT be a victim of a sting operation on: February 07, 2014, 10:30:07 PM
If I go to a home hardware store, buy a hammer and tell the cashier offhandedly that I'll be killing someone with said hammer, would the cashier be an accessory to murder since she didn't go to the authorities about it and let me buy the hammer anyways?

You are not required to have a state license in Florida to buy a hammer (yet).
235  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: How to NOT be a victim of a sting operation on: February 07, 2014, 10:28:39 PM
Either way, a great way to not incriminate yourself is to not know the true intentions of the other party.

That is patently NOT true.

Ask Doug Jackson of e-gold about that one.

That is why the US has extensive Know Your Customer (KYC) rules.
236  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: How to NOT be a victim of a sting operation on: February 07, 2014, 10:24:18 PM
Of course bitcoin isn't money by law and therefore this can't be considered "Money laundering"

This is patently NOT true.

Bitcoin according to FinCEN is "other value that substitutes for currency" as per FinCEN's FINAL RULE:  Bank Secrecy Act Regulations; Definitions and Other Regulations Relating to Money Services Businesses
76 C.F.R. 43585

***
The regulatory definition of ‘‘money transmission services’’ includes the phrase ‘‘or other value that substitutes for currency’’ to state that businesses that accept stored value or currency equivalents as a funding source and transmit that value are providing money transmission services.
***

http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2011-07-21/pdf/2011-18309.pdf
237  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Secretary Lew Sends Debt Limit Letter To Congress on: February 07, 2014, 10:09:49 PM
February 7, 2014
The Honorable John A. Boehner
Speaker
U.S. House of Representatives
Washington, DC 20515

Dear Mr. Speaker:

I am writing to follow up on my previous letters regarding the debt limit and the Department of the Treasury's ability to continue to finance the government.

As you know, the Continuing Appropriations Act, 2014 temporarily suspended the statutory debt limit through today, February 7, 2014. Because Congress has not acted to approve normal borrowing authority, Treasury must begin implementing extraordinary measures that enable us, on a temporary basis, to protect the full faith and credit of the United States and to continue paying the nation's bills.

As I have noted previously, these measures are more limited than in past debt limit impasses. When I last wrote to you in January, I estimated that Treasury likely would exhaust extraordinary measures in late February. Given the heightened variability of cash flows during tax season- which began last Friday, January 31 - it is difficult to forecast with any certainty when Treasury will exhaust its borrowing capacity. Based on our best and most recent information, however, we are not confident that the extraordinary measures will last beyond Thursday, February 27. At that point, Treasury would be left with only the cash on hand and any incoming revenue to meet our country's commitments.

In light of the unpredictability of tax refund payments, it is even more difficult to forecast accurately the amount of cash that Treasury will have after our borrowing authority is exhausted. We currently estimate that the amount will be approximately $50 billion. That number, however, could be materially higher or lower, depending on the pace of tax refund filings. Regardless, any foreseeable cash balance would be exhausted quickly. In previous years, the Internal Revenue Service has issued as much as $10-15 billion in refunds on a single day and nearly $40 billion in a single week. Moreover, net daily expenditures for the government can be as high as$60 billion on certain days. If Treasury has insufficient cash on hand, it would be impossible for our nation to meet all of its obligations for the first time in history.

Protecting the full faith and credit of the United States is the responsibility of Congress because only Congress can extend the nation's borrowing authority. No Congress in our history has failed to meet that responsibility, and time is short. Extraordinary measures are likely to be exhausted in less than three weeks. Congress is scheduled to be out of session for part of that time, and it would be  a mistake to wait until the last possible minute to act. As such, I respectfully urge Congress to move as quickly as possible, raise the debt limit, and provide certainty to the economy and to the financial markets.

Sincerely,
Jacob J. Lew


Identical letter sent to:
The Honorable Nancy Pelosi, House Democratic Leader
The Honorable Harry Reid, Senate Majority Leader
The Honorable Mitch McConnell, Senate Republican Leader
cc:
The Honorable Dave Camp, Chairman, House Committee on Ways and Means
The Honorable Sander M. Levin, Ranking Member, House Committee on Ways and Means
The Honorable Max Baucus, Chairman, Senate Committee on Finance
The Honorable Orrin G. Hatch, Ranking Member, Senate Committee on Finance
All other Members of the 113th Congress
Anthony Reyes is the New Media Specialist at the United States Department of the Treasury.

http://www.treasury.gov/initiatives/Documents/Debt%20Limit%20Letter%20020714.pdf


 
238  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: *Breaking news* Bitstamp is down - Can't enter the site on: February 07, 2014, 06:59:46 PM
up for me.

MagicalTux, is that you Huh
239  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Gavin will visit the Council on Foreign Relations on: February 07, 2014, 06:58:17 PM
Our == the virtual currency community at large.

My point is that my own conception of 'good advocacy' and yours are substantially different because we pretty clearly envision different end states as ideal.

I'm not making a values judgement about who's vision of an end state is good or bad or right or wrong.  Just that they are different.



True that.
240  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Gavin will visit the Council on Foreign Relations on: February 07, 2014, 06:08:20 PM
Our == the virtual currency community at large.
Pages: « 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 [12] 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 52 53 54 55 56 57 58 59 60 61 62 ... 169 »
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.19 | SMF © 2006-2009, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!