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861  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: List of all cryptocurrencies on: January 01, 2013, 06:53:43 PM
Wow good job xorxor and FuzzyBear. Here is some minor corrections to Fuzzy's data:

ixc cap likely not 21m as block subsidy starts at 96 coin.
lqc has no cap as block subsidy has a minimum of 1 coin.
unlike dev/lqc, ppc total money supply is better described as non-deterministic rather than no-cap.
frc cap is 100m.

dvc: 90% block subsidy goes to foundation
frc: 80% block subsidy goes to foundation for the first 3 years (about 500 coins for each of first 161280 blocks, total 80m)
862  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: FreiCoin (FRC) discussion (was FreiCoin (FRC) for TRC, PPC, LTC or BTC) on: January 01, 2013, 01:52:01 AM
The basic interest rate / liquidity premium is a natural feature of money unrelated to the artificially-imposed demurrage rate. Basic interest does not go up or down if demurrage parameters are adjusted. Gesell argued that demurrage should be equal to the basic interest rate, which at his time and now hovered around 5% (but like the undeveloped value of land, it's not something easy to measure). We chose 4.89% because the math was better (2**-20 per 10min block) and it stayed within the error bars of ~5%.

Really, 5% demurrage would have the same basic interest rate as 0% demurrage according to your understanding of the theory? Hmmm that's what I thought too, so finally we have something to agree upon  Wink
863  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: FreiCoin (FRC) discussion (was FreiCoin (FRC) for TRC, PPC, LTC or BTC) on: December 31, 2012, 06:55:06 PM
How is basic interest rate related to demurrage rate in Gesell's theory?

Assuming there is no competing currencies, what's the basic interest rate (a rough estimate would be okay) for:

1% annual demurrage rate
5% annual demurrage rate
10% annual demurrage rate
90% annual demurrage rate

Can anyone answer that? Then it would be easier for us to grasp the claim here.
864  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: [PPC] PPCoin Weekly Updates on: December 31, 2012, 03:02:46 PM
Weekly Update #19

  • Total money supply surpassed 15 million coins this week.
  • Release 0.3.0 with protocol upgrade is being implemented and is currently on schedule (to be released in about 3 weeks).
  • This week saw the debut of freicoin on the bitcointalk forum (actual release was the week before on Dec. 21st). I don't see the benefit of the concept of demurrage except for being more honest than the inflation tax, but alas, with even fellows at the Federal Reserve becoming fans (http://libertystreeteconomics.newyorkfed.org/2012/08/if-interest-rates-go-negative-or-be-careful-what-you-wish-for.html) we'd need to take notice. Welcome the new competition  Wink

Happy New Year to All!
865  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Freicoin application developer best practices on: December 31, 2012, 02:46:14 AM
So under this approach exchange records user balance same as the other cryptocoins, without any demurrange accounting. Withdrawal fee is a percentage value greater than 1 - (current wallet balance)/(sum of user balances). It can be automatically adjusted or fixed by the owner periodically.
Doesn't this have the issue that sell orders can exist without coins backing it? If a user lists 1,000 FRC for sale which is their exact balance on the exchange then on the next block they no longer have 1,000 coins to match the order.

The exchange wallet balance can be smaller than the sum of user balances. But after paying withdrawal fee the wallet balance should cover all user accounts.

However on second thought I think this scheme albeit simple would attract users to treat the exchange as 'safe-harbor' to reduce their demurrage. Then the withdrawal fee needs to go higher and higher causing damage to the popularity of the exchange.

The hard part seems to be how to avoid modifying an order on the order book.

866  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Freicoin application developer best practices on: December 31, 2012, 02:17:16 AM
Yes, but the fraud could only be pulled off if there's a human in the loop, and one which didn't bother to correlate. Any application (payment service, exchange, etc.) would properly account for demurrage and know that 100 coins sent from a reference height 1 year in the past is still only ~95 coins.

But someone could release a client that split one send into multiple send transactions and eliminate demurrage? Wouldn't this cause the entire demurrage thing becoming a futile exercise? Did you say something about official client detecting this 'demurrage fraud' if the received coins having very old reference height?
867  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Freicoin application developer best practices on: December 31, 2012, 01:50:25 AM
And I just realized that while discussed in depth on our own forums, this probably hasn't been made clear here: always check the reference-height of an incoming transaction to make sure it's close to what you'd expect. The creator of a transaction is allowed to select the reference height value.

Some people are probably sitting up in their chairs at reading that, thinking “oh my god that's exploitable!” Well it's a bit more complicated and some thought has been put into it. There are some new rules for validating transactions: the reference height must be greater than or equal to all of its inputs reference heights, and less than or equal to the block height, and coinbase transactions must have a reference height equal to the block height. And even if you purposefully constructed a transaction with an old reference height (there are no tools to do this currently), it'd still show up as less than the advertised amount in the recipient's balance.

However it is possible for someone to construct a new transaction with an old reference height, if they have access to suitably old outputs, such that it would show a larger amount on the transaction tab than is added to the recipient's available balance. More than anything else, that's why the transactions tab includes the Ref-height column - always check the reference-height of an incoming transaction.

Hmmm not sure I understand that, you didn't mention any restriction how close reference height must be to the block height, then it seems possible to avoid demurrage altogether by not combining multiple inputs and use the same reference height of the old coins. Not sure if this is what you mean by 'demurrage fraud.'
868  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: Freicoin application developer best practices on: December 30, 2012, 06:36:19 PM
The exchange recommendation sounds overly complex and confusing to the users. Charging a percentage withdrawal fee based on difference between exchange wallet balance and exchange database balance is probably a lot simpler to implement and understandable to users.

So under this approach exchange records user balance same as the other cryptocoins, without any demurrange accounting. Withdrawal fee is a percentage value greater than 1 - (current wallet balance)/(sum of user balances). It can be automatically adjusted or fixed by the owner periodically.
869  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: FreiCoin (FRC) discussion (was FreiCoin (FRC) for TRC, PPC, LTC or BTC) on: December 29, 2012, 06:41:16 AM
The key here is the distinction between 'Basic' interest and the interest rate on individual loans.  Basic interest is what the lender can demand for a risk-free loan and each individual borrower is then charged a premium for their individual risk factors (or refused a loan all together).  The aim of Demurrage and Gesell's theories is to bring basic interest to 0% as only that portion of a loan is usury, the risk premium portion is completely legitimate and necessary.  Competition between lenders will drive the risk premium down to just paying for defaults and profits which as Jt explains naturally fall to zero under perfect competition.

The reality is that loans in Freicoin won't start until valuation has become stable and a good amount of products are selling in Freicoin.

Good. Now we can focus on the concept of basic interest. First of all I don't agree that basic interest constitute 'usury' and should be eliminated. When I lend money out, even if it's completely risk free (although I doubt there is such a thing but that's another topic), I still sacrificed my ability to use these money as I wish at any time if instead I just kept them. So why shouldn't I be compensated for the sacrifice? Maybe you could argue that under perfect competition that the rate should be tending to 0%, then again I don't see how demurrage is going to help much at all.

Can you tell what's the 'basic interest rate' under the current fiat system? I am sorry but no the US treasury is not risk-free to me  Wink

The other issue is that even if you can manage to lower basic interest rate with demurrage, why is it such a good thing? If we say that the current fiat system with central banking already reduced real (basic) interest rate to negative, so isn't that already a solved problem (albeit through state coersion)? So I assume that advocates of Gesell's theory all agree that central banking with fiat is a superior system than gold because it can lower basic interest rate? Instead I could argue it's bad because it distorts the free market interest rate and encourages a debt society which has it's own set of malaises.
870  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: FreiCoin (FRC) discussion (was FreiCoin (FRC) for TRC, PPC, LTC or BTC) on: December 28, 2012, 08:43:08 PM
I don't see how the claim of 0% interest rate could be a stable equilibrium. If I lend freicoin at 0% interest rate, alternatively I could exchange it to bitcoin and lend bitcoin at positive interest rate. Assuming the exchange rate between the two is stable, then obviously I would choose the second alternative.

As you point out, the lender will try to maximize his profits and currencies can be exchanged. But that also applies to the borrower, who will try to minimize his borrowing costs. That way, bitcoin and freicoin financial markets will theoretically equilibrate and produce the same interest rate.
Now you ask why the equilibrium should be zero interest.
The fast answer is that without an artificial barrier for capital yields to drop, they would drop to zero like all profits do in perfect competition and interest rates are intimately linked to interest rates.
But let's make an example with some imaginary assumptions to simplify things. Freicoins and Bitcoins have the same price.

There's a given market, say car manufacturing, where factories (capital) yield 2% of their producing costs (the cost to build the factory). Of course, their yield comes from selling the consuming goods (cars). Building a new factory would push the yields down, since all compete selling cars. In perfect competition, profits drop to zero, but not yields, since they represent the borrowing costs for the investment. To be profitable with a new factory you need a loan at a lower rate than 2%. Sorry if I'm repeating myself but I want to stress how yields tend to drop by competition, which, by the way, is good for the consumers, since lower yields mean cheaper products.
If lenders/investors can find another market with higher yields they will prefer to invest on that other market first. Higher yields mean that the demand on that market hasn't fulfilled the whole demand at the lowest possible price. There's more margin for the lowest possible price (which is just the raw costs, without profits nor capital yields) on that market so the demand's signal is transmitted to the financial market. But those markets will eventually hit 2% yields and eventually lenders/investors will have to chose between 1.9% or hoarding money.

A bitcoin lender doesn't have any incentive to lend at zero interest, but a freicoin lender has. Borrowers/entrepreneurs will find lower interests on freicoin's financial market, possibly zero. As yields get lower, bitcoin's financial market would shrink in favor of freicoin's. Borrowers don't care about demurrage because they're going to invest the money, spend it on producing goods.

Why an entrepreneur would plan to invest in something that yields 0% ? That means that the factory on its whole lifetime will only pay for itself, not give more return. The lender just wants to spend his money at another time without paying demurrage nor conversion to bitcoin fees. And the entrepreneur is paying his own wage as part of the production costs. Being selfish that could be enough for him. Ideally at this stage the building costs of the factory equal its total outcomes in its productive lifetime and the consumer is only paying for the real costs of production.

I hope this makes sense to you, but of course don't hesitate to ask questions or criticize the parts you don't agree on.


I feel that your argument hinges on the idea that savers will lose demurrage if not lending freicoin out at 0% interest rate.

It would be true if the demurrage is enforced via state monopoly and legal tender laws like the fiat currencies. However given a free choice between:

1) 'Hoarding' bitcoin
2) Lending freicoin out at 0% interest rate with all the risk associated with lending money (possible default and total loss)

I mean it's an easy choice no?

So no I don't agree that the expectation of an eventual 0% interest rate can materialize as the equilibrium state without state coersion.

Also I don't see where in your argument this 0% is deduced as the logical end state. Maybe you mean that assuming you cannot ban bitcoins so interest rate would just approach the lower bound of bitcoin interest rate (which is 0%) instead of going lower to negative territory? But in reality bitcoin interest rate would be quite a bit higher to compensate for risks associated with lending.

871  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: FreiCoin (FRC) discussion (was FreiCoin (FRC) for TRC, PPC, LTC or BTC) on: December 28, 2012, 07:45:53 PM
I reasonably liked what I read about the freicoin project until I learned the 80% tax today.

Did you ever consider general demurrage to offset the Proof-of-Stake inflation in PPCoin? If the reason is that this introduces extra coding-complexity, would you consider introducing it in a later version of PPCoin? Maybe have a look at the code for demurrage in Freicoin?

In ppcoin inflation is countered via destruction of transaction fees. No demurrage will not be included in ppcoin. This is irrespective of the fact that I don't like demurrage I think it's effect is sort of equivalent to inflation. Even if I were to be persuade that demurrage has a somewhat positive effect on economy as a whole I would only do it in a separate cryptocurrency instead of messing with ppcoin.

Also I think there is some misunderstanding in your post. Demurrage does not counter inflation. Both inflation and demurrage can be considered a form of taxation on the economy. This tax is paid to miners in the case of bitcoin and freicoin but for ppcoin it's paid to stake minter in addition to miners. Here is a little comparison of mining tax rate between the 3 coins:

asymptotic annual mining tax rate:
bitcoin: 0% + transaction fee tax rate
ppcoin: <1%
freicoin: 5%

freicoin has chosen a rapidly decreasing inflation rate though (inflation stops after 3 years). Comparison of annual mining tax rate 3 years from now (one year before bitcoin's second halving):
bitcoin: ~ 9% (would become 4~5% after the second halving)
ppcoin: unknown (maybe close to bitcoin's depending on market adoption)
freicoin: 5%

So freicoin has one year window where it's mining tax rate is significantly lower than bitcoin's.

However freicoin has an additional centralized tax known as 'foundation tax' at a rate of 80%, on the entire money supply for the first 3 years (80m out of total 100m coins). So the coin's fate will largely depend on the good will of the management of the foundation and the immediate effect is that hash rate of the network will be 'taxed away' and the protection level against 51% attack is lower than a comparably valued (in terms of market cap) cryptocoin. But I think another serious issue is the foundation has too much concentration of wealth and might be subject to confiscation (no plausible deniability as the addresses of the foundation are hardcoded in source code and its accounting is presumably public).
872  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: FreiCoin (FRC) discussion (was FreiCoin (FRC) for TRC, PPC, LTC or BTC) on: December 27, 2012, 08:23:48 PM

I don't see how demurrage money is necessarily bad as a unit for contracts. It's not the same as inflationary money. If you are owed 1000 usd and there's 10% inflation you will lose 10% on real value. But if there's no price inflation you won't lose even if the reference currency has demurrage. If you are owed 1000 frc to be paid next year, you are owed 1000 frc to be paid next year, no matter the demurrage rate. If the borrower wants to sit on the money and pay the demurrage instead of invest it on something productive that's his problem.


I don't see how the claim of 0% interest rate could be a stable equilibrium. If I lend freicoin at 0% interest rate, alternatively I could exchange it to bitcoin and lend bitcoin at positive interest rate. Assuming the exchange rate between the two is stable, then obviously I would choose the second alternative.
873  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Announcements (Altcoins) / Re: [ANN] [PPC] PPCoin Released! - First Long-Term Energy-Efficient Crypto-Currency on: December 27, 2012, 07:55:56 PM
How will a hard fork affect wallet balances?

As long as you upgrade before the deadline (currently scheduled around 4 weeks after release, 8 weeks from now), there would be no effect on balance/stake/newmint. If you happen to miss the upgrade deadline, any transaction transacted after the deadline belongs to the obsolete fork and will be reversed when you upgrade.
874  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: FreiCoin (FRC) discussion (was FreiCoin (FRC) for TRC, PPC, LTC or BTC) on: December 26, 2012, 05:28:50 AM
I'm a bit foggy on the initial reward rate. I read that the genesis block generated a lot of coins like 78k or so and the reward rate has been dropping since then.

Can you give us some total as of block 10,000 like total coins @10k, coins in the wild @10k and coins in the fund at @10k?

Some FRC stats on a website would be a good more. I look forward to seeing your Freicoin Federation site. I'll try and think of something awesome to contribute Smiley

Don't believe everything you hear. For the most part, unless maaku wrote it, it's probably wrong.

The first block generated 750.56846171 coins.

496.03174604 went to the foundation.

254.53671561 went to the abyss, or to maaku. Not sure on that.

   .00000001 x 6 went to addresses of various contributors to the development of Freicoin. These are meant to be like a movie credits.

So looks like galambo doesn't know the coin supply at 10k blocks either.

As far as I see 'coins in the wild' is about 250*10k = 2.5m at block 10k. But since there was no prerelease nor release announcement on bitcointalk so I am guessing a majority of these is owned by developers as well. No idea how many in the tax account or else.

I was asked why I mined freicoin and should have more confidence in ppc.

I have plenty of confidence in ppc and I don't see why I shouldn't value competing cryptocurrencies with interest. And I like competing fairly and dislike monopolies and bullies Wink I reasonably liked what I read about the freicoin project until I learned the 80% tax today.
875  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: FreiCoin (FRC) discussion (was FreiCoin (FRC) for TRC, PPC, LTC or BTC) on: December 26, 2012, 01:45:43 AM
Selling FRC in 10k lot @2000:1 to BTC (5btc lot), @2:3 to PPC (15k ppc lot). PM me if interested.

[Edit: adjusted offer based on market rate]
876  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: After testing Ripple... on: December 26, 2012, 01:27:52 AM
So what's XRP? Is this thing issued by the ripple dev team and backed by ripple dev team? Is it a one-time issue or continues to be issued via the trust network?
877  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: FreiCoin (FRC) discussion (was FreiCoin (FRC) for TRC, PPC, LTC or BTC) on: December 26, 2012, 01:05:10 AM
Let me reiterate: 80% of the initial distribution. This shuts off on block 161280, and the perpetual reward (4.9% of the monetary base per year) goes to the miners only.

This is a different way of handling the initial distribution. Coins will enter the marketplace through mining, and through purchase of goods and services by a community-vetted process of grant proposals.

Wow 80% tax? Is this tax rate also 'community-vetted'? Are you seriously trying to challenge bitcoin through dirty politics? Roll Eyes

Here I thought the project was serious. I take it back now. This doesn't look like it's about Gesell or demurrage at all. Why am I not surprised that the advocates of 'mainstream economics' turn out to be a group of control freaks?
878  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: [PPC] PPCoin Weekly Updates on: December 24, 2012, 04:24:20 AM
Weekly Update #18

  • We have disclosed a stake generation vulnerability this week. A researcher made the disclosure announcement two days ago so I had to issue a disclosure statement on the same day. I would like to talk a bit about the controversial topic of responsible disclosure. Why is responsible disclosure important? Because the computer software industry has already tried everything and learned the hard lessons, so an etiquette of responsible disclosure has been adopted widely. Responsible disclosure does not mean cover-up. It means the researchers and developers work together and negotiate a disclosure schedule, allowing reasonable time for developers to implement fix and for users to patch their systems. The management of bitcoin merkle hash vulnerability has been a prime example of responsible disclosure. We try to hold ourselves to high technical and ethical standard since the beginning of ppcoin network, and we would appreciate independent researchers from the community do the same.
  • The impact of the vulnerability is described in https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=131940.0
  • The centrally broadcasted checkpoint is designed to help in this type of situations. So with the checkpoint protection the impact of the vulnerability is reasonably limited.
  • The vulnerability has been known to us for a while and I have spent quite some time to formulate an improved hash protocol. Proper review and implementation of the new protocol would take some time, and that's why I stress the importance of responsible disclosure as not all vulnerabilities can be fixed and patched in a day or two.
  • The schedule of implementing the new protocol is tentatively planned as following: week 1~2: implementation and review; week 3 - testing on testnet; week 4 - final testing, build and release; week 8 - client upgrade deadline and protocol switch. Yes the protocol change would be a hard fork and all clients are required to upgrade within 3-4 weeks after the release.

Merry Christmas to all!
879  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: PPC CRYPTOCURRENCY ACTING FUNNY on: December 24, 2012, 02:53:29 AM
Question, can you ever lose your stake?

Or you never lose it?

Do you ever get interest? Or it operates the same way as a normal balance?
Advantages?

You don't lose stakes, the stake returns to balance after 520 blocks and you earn some reward which can be roughly understood as 1% annual interest.
880  Alternate cryptocurrencies / Altcoin Discussion / Re: FreiCoin (FRC) discussion (was FreiCoin (FRC) for TRC, PPC, LTC or BTC) on: December 24, 2012, 01:01:05 AM
Who is the dev or dev team behind freicoin? I haven't really heard much about this one before.

Looks like maaku did most of the coding work and jtimon is an expert on its economic theory.

I am not a big fan of the idea of demurage but happy to see the work done and being validated on the market. That's always my thinking that you don't have to convince me in theory, you can let the market demonstrate it to me. Of course it's still too early but hopefully we can observe in the future whether bitcoin/freicoin can complement each other with freicoin a better medium of exchange, reducing interest rate and helping credit formation etc.
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