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1361  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: November 12, 2013, 04:50:10 PM
I just don't see how bitcoin could become a major currency to buy and sell goods without the volatility issue being mitigated first. This is why I think the 400 billion market cap should come first, and afterwards the whole currency shabang.

I think this is right.  Bitcoin, as a decentralized currency, simply can't be brought into existence as a usable currency by the standards of what we're all used to right out of the gate.  Its design ensures that that cannot be the case.  Its design practically demands it be a speculative vehicle at the get go (for who knows how long).  What's really interesting is that it's attraction as a speculative vehicle during it's growth phase is, it appears, a necessary step to becoming a decentralized currency (in the useful sense we're all used to in terms of stability, etc.).  If it weren't for its speculative attraction, how would it ever reach a valuation capable of handling lots of transactions for lots of products (from homes to candy bars) on an international scale?

1362  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Could rapid price appreciation prevent Bitcoin's success? on: November 12, 2013, 04:39:43 PM
The rising and volatile price of BTC/USD is not good at all for bitcoin as a currency, although it is good as an investment / speculative asset.

From customers perspective: Why should I spend my bitcoins to buy an iPad today if the price of bitcoin goes up every day? I keep my bitcoins they might go up 1000%

From webshops perspective: Why should I accept bitcoin as a currency if the price is volatile? I might sell my products with a loss if the BTC price drops after I sell my product and want to convert the revenue to USD.

Right, those are just restatements of the question under consideration.  What's interesting is that contrary to these sorts of standard formulations of why deflation is bad, bitcoin has been experiencing extreme deflation over its life, and yet bitcoin spending appears to be increasing over time, and merchant adoption appears to be increasing over time.

That's why this is interesting.  We can all read the wiki on why deflation is thought bad by the most popular economic theory.  And yet, it seems the theory's predictions may not be presenting themselves (a) at all or (b) much more weakly than the theory would suggest relative to how extreme bitcoin deflation has been.

The real interesting work has to do with substantiating all these anecdotal claims about increased spending and increased adoption.  Then if those claims are supported, explore explanations for why the theory isn't predicting well in this case.  Is it because enough time hasn't passed?  Are there other properties of bitcoin and its economy that make is sufficiently different from the types of cases deflationary theories typically apply to?  Is the theory just plain generally wrong?

Just saying, "Deflation, therefore bitcoin will fail" as you have done, and as the author of the article that sparked this thread has done, is, IMO, a failure to thoughtfully consider the issue.
1363  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: Patrick Strateman - FBI wants your reports on Bitcoinica, Intersango etc. on: November 12, 2013, 04:30:47 PM
I had ~150BTC in bitcoinica (not in any positions, mind you) when it went offline.  I missed the deadline at the beginning of the year to add additional information regarding my account, though I am listed on that investors list that Taslim Bhamji emailed out a year ago.  I guess what I'm getting at is...Help me understand if this is worth my time.
1364  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: November 11, 2013, 09:31:31 PM
Just talked to karpeles via personal cell. He says buy orders are working fine but sells are not. Not exactly sure what the problem is, but has determined this is a new kind of ddos. Should be resolved by end of the month.

LOL, best laugh of the day.
1365  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Could rapid price appreciation prevent Bitcoin's success? on: November 11, 2013, 06:38:36 PM
It's absolutely fair to raise the question.  What I'm suggesting is that it's an open question.  I think the deflationary argument against bitcoin is compelling.  And, yes, it's absolutely possible that spending could drop drastically as the value goes up.  But, here's a question:  Has bitcoin spending dropped drastically as the value has gone up?  What's so important about the future values of $500, $1000, and $10,000?  It seems there's enough history now that we can scrape together enough data to make some preliminary judgments.

What's important about future values is people's reaction to increased ROI on their investment.  The pizza scenario is a perfect example.  If you can buy a pizza today for say 0.1 BTC but in a matter of days (or whatever) that same 0.1 BTC could be worth $200.  Arbitrary numbers but I'm just making the point that people's willingness to spend something that continues to prove that it not only will be more valuable tomorrow but is actually designed to be that way, very well could stagnant spending.  As ones confidence grows that Bitcoin will be significantly more value next month than today, spending them makes less and less sense, from a investment stand point.  Which is obviously the point the article was making.

I understand all of that.  The point I'm making is that that article could have been published 4 years ago, and, in fact, people did write such things 4 years ago, and 3 years ago, and 2 years ago, and last year.  And, yet, it seems, at least anecdotally, that spending has not stagnated.  What I'm suggesting is that we don't need to speculate about future values.  We already have a history of deflation and possible increased spending to explain, which runs contrary to the deflationary argument.
1366  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: November 11, 2013, 05:42:28 PM
i can't access the btcchina.com either...how about you guys?

for me it works from europe..

work for me now too, but not if you type just url btcchina.com...you must use the whole url with www...i guess the problem is not ddos, but only wrong or no redirecting on the url without www...

Works for me from East Coast US.
1367  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Could rapid price appreciation prevent Bitcoin's success? on: November 11, 2013, 05:35:51 PM
We'll here's the thing.  Bitcoins are used in transactions.  The author's theoretical problem has been discussed from the very beginning.  People were raising the exact same issue in 2010 when bitcoins were trading at a nickel...and people went on and bought them and spent them.

I don't know that there's a real academically satisfying response to the complaint.  On the one hand, the author raises a serious economic concern (though, he's quite late to the party in raising it): That the deflationary nature of bitcoin will contributes to the system's failure.  And on the other hand, there is the following fact:  People spend bitcoins.

Agreed, people obviously spend Bitcoin's but as they become more valuable, will they be spent more or less?  Isn't it a fair to at least question whether the higher the value is, the less you're inclined to spend?  Nancarrow makes good points as well but for the interim we mostly do still have disposable income and can hoard.  I would say that is true for 95%+ of people who are buying Bitcoin's.  Isn't it at least possible that spending could drop drastically as we cross the $500, $1000, $10,000 mark of Bitcoin's?

It's absolutely fair to raise the question.  What I'm suggesting is that it's an open question.  I think the deflationary argument against bitcoin is compelling.  And, yes, it's absolutely possible that spending could drop drastically as the value goes up.  But, here's a question:  Has bitcoin spending dropped drastically as the value has gone up?  What's so important about the future values of $500, $1000, and $10,000?  It seems there's enough history now that we can scrape together enough data to make some preliminary judgments.

For example, the value of 1 BTC is more than 400x greater than when I bought my first bitcoins in early 2011.  Has spending decreased more than 400x?  Has it increased?  By how much either way?  If it's increased, what are the best explanations for that behavior?  I've read a lot of anecdotal evidence that merchants see increased spending during rally periods.  I think it'd be a worthwhile project to investigate these claims more rigorously since they offer some early empirical evidence that empirically runs contrary to the deflationary argument's theoretical claims.  

Granted, it's still early.  Still, I'm not aware of a deflationary currency environment of this size from which to draw empirical evidence to either substantiate or contradict an old, and widely accepted economic theory.
1368  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Could rapid price appreciation prevent Bitcoin's success? on: November 11, 2013, 05:21:08 PM
I read this little article and I'm curious how much truth there is to it's claims, specifically:

Quote
How can Bitcoin become a real currency if it's not used in transactions? And why would anyone use it in transactions if becoming a real currency offers so much more price appreciation? This contradiction is a core problem, and it's a reason why it's probably doomed to fail (real currencies don't have this issue, since central banks prevent rapid price appreciation, and they mandate that the currency be used).

Read more: http://www.businessinsider.com/if-you-believe-in-bitcoin-you-should-never-buy-anything-in-bitcoin-2013-11#ixzz2kM39YlIJ


We'll here's the thing.  Bitcoins are used in transactions.  The author's theoretical problem has been discussed from the very beginning.  People were raising the exact same issue in 2010 when bitcoins were trading at a nickel...and people went on and bought them and spent them.

I don't know that there's a real academically satisfying response to the complaint.  On the one hand, the author raises a serious economic concern (though, he's quite late to the party in raising it): That the deflationary nature of bitcoin will contributes to the system's failure.  And on the other hand, there is the following fact:  People spend bitcoins.
1369  Economy / Service Discussion / Re: Mt. Gox offline? on: November 11, 2013, 04:41:07 PM
Anybody knows why there are no transactions happening at mt gox???

No
1370  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: November 11, 2013, 04:38:29 PM
I sold a few at 372.. I liked that price this weekend. Then gox crashed haha..

Shoot me but on the way to the moon there's turbulence, i'm going to try my luck.

Storing BTC value with 3rd parties is risky.  Storing BTC value with MtGox is insane.

I seem to be getting my prescience back...

Sorry PH, I don't think it requires any special powers to realize these two things. Wink

...and yet lots of people still store lots of bitcoins and other money on MtGox.  It's really incredible.  I just don't understand it.

It also doesn't take any special power to realize there are a lot of idiots out there. I agree, it's incredible. I always say that people need to get burned before they learn their lesson, but some people get burned and just keep on doing the same old shit.

I was burned once.  Bitcoinica got away with 150 of my bitcoins (I understand MtGox is basically holding them hostage), and I consider myself lucky it wasn't much worse than that.  I've managed my own bitcoins in my own offline wallets ever since.  I understand that bitcoin already attracts people with high risk tolerance, but adding the risk association with MtGox historically adds...again, I just don't understand how people are tolerating that level of risk with the amounts that are sitting on Gox.
1371  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: November 11, 2013, 04:30:18 PM
I sold a few at 372.. I liked that price this weekend. Then gox crashed haha..

Shoot me but on the way to the moon there's turbulence, i'm going to try my luck.

Storing BTC value with 3rd parties is risky.  Storing BTC value with MtGox is insane.

I seem to be getting my prescience back...

Sorry PH, I don't think it requires any special powers to realize these two things. Wink

...and yet lots of people still store lots of bitcoins and other money on MtGox.  It's really incredible.  I just don't understand it.
1372  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: November 11, 2013, 04:26:48 PM
I sold a few at 372.. I liked that price this weekend. Then gox crashed haha..

Shoot me but on the way to the moon there's turbulence, i'm going to try my luck.

Storing BTC value with 3rd parties is risky.  Storing BTC value with MtGox is insane.

I seem to be getting my prescience back...
1373  Bitcoin / Press / Re: 2013-11-10 Business Insider If You Believe In Bitcoin, You Should Never Buy Anyt on: November 11, 2013, 04:20:04 PM
Take this to the logical conclusion and there should be few working and a whole bunch of debt as people fight to borrow to consume today and pay tomorrow.

Thankfully the worldwide debt based system hasn't ever resulted any significant problems due to people and businesses borrowing today to pay tomorrow.
1374  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: November 11, 2013, 03:37:48 PM
I sold a few at 372.. I liked that price this weekend. Then gox crashed haha..

Shoot me but on the way to the moon there's turbulence, i'm going to try my luck.

Storing BTC value with 3rd parties is risky.  Storing BTC value with MtGox is insane.
1375  Bitcoin / Bitcoin Discussion / Re: Bitcoin at the US Senate on: November 11, 2013, 03:31:26 PM
So, FWIW, I think this guy should say something there.


1376  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: November 11, 2013, 03:11:40 PM
I see over 8 minutes of lag on gox (from i286). Now 9. Can anyone else confirm?

Seeing the same.
1377  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: November 11, 2013, 03:10:58 PM

Any insight on why?
1378  Bitcoin / Press / Re: 2013-11-10 Business Insider If You Believe In Bitcoin, You Should Never Buy Anyt on: November 11, 2013, 03:07:54 PM
LOL, Hi Joe, welcome to a discussion this community has been having since like July 2010.
1379  Economy / Speculation / Re: Gold collapsing. Bitcoin UP. on: November 11, 2013, 03:00:27 PM
Gold collapsing.  Bitcoin UP.

What happened to gold on Friday?
1380  Economy / Speculation / Re: Wall Observer BTC/USD - Bitcoin price movement tracking & discussion on: November 11, 2013, 02:57:41 PM
I think we're going to see a lot of buy back this morning from the failed weekend dumpers.

I wonder what percentage of them will be buying back at a loss.  It's not like we bulls didn't try to warn them....

This is how it looks like right now...bitcoin tank crashing all the doubters and obsticles on its way to become 1# world currency)



That made me lol, thanks.
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