I'm going to play the devils advocate here for a minute. Imagine a scenario where there is a giant miner manufacturer. They are huge, and extremely powerful, and they will go to any means necessary to cement their position including actions that are immoral, though most of them are within the definition of "legal", and said company had unlimited reserves of money at their disposal for said purposes. They could take actions like appealing zoning variances in various locations, filing frivolous lawsuits against companies, and secretly against individuals via proxies. This company could analyze a competitors supply and distribution chain, find the weakest link, and "attack" there to cause the new company to be late or not be able to deliver on their commitments thereby irreparably damaging their reputation. Now the questions you need to ask yourself are, "Is there a company that would do things like this?" and "If I were trying to unseat this companies monopoly, would I be a little paranoid until whatever point I had achieved legitimacy, and built up my own cash reserves in order to defend myself?" Dragonmint is probably in the red still right now and while they may of secured the resources to design and make miners, and ship them out that doesn't mean they have the kind of money on hand to defend themselves legally from an attacker with unlimited reserves. There's alot of money at stake here, and there HAS been an obvious reaction to them with prices all through the market, so it's safe to say, SOMEONES taking them seriously, and is willing to lose money so that Dragonmint doesn't make any.
Unfortunately, alot of such occur. When it comes to money, thats how it often is. Big companies do the same thing, big oil companies especially. U should go watch netflix documentary genius regarding the inventor of the TV. He made nothing in the end thanks to lawsuits,etc. Banks facilitate financial crimes all the time and they will get fined later but claim no wrongdoing. U may wanna look at netflix documentary dirty money on HSBC. However, those are more extreme examples and some are alleged illegal actions, different from this. Pricing products lower to compete and kill off a competitor is somewhat a more normal tactic though. Just my 2 cents |
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Honestly, almost any other pool is better than antpoo. Kano, Slush....all better choices.
U have detailed numbers of this? |
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An 10nm ASIC including an AB quad-core only at eye level with Bitmain’s 16nm ASIC in non-AB mode? Interesting.
It seems there are no low hanging fruits for more efficient ASICs anymore. Just to move to the newest technology node is not enough.
Also Ebang failed with a 10nm ASIC to get the “most efficient ASIC” crown. And GMO is not publishing any data about its 12nm prototypes.
U mean the dragonmint is on a 10nm node? Bitmain S9 is now 16nm right? Ebang 10nm miner is about 5k USD, at 18Th at 90watts per TH. It is good but expensive. I dunno how much more expensive producing 10nm is over 16nm but dragons are cheap if compared to Ebang's. Wat u complained about is normal competition and it occurs in all industries. It is the same reason why mom-and-pop stores cannot compete against Walmart and even big retailers cannot compete against amazon. Amazon has killed tons more competition than bitmain did and ever will. Same with Walmart,etc. Competitors will lower prices to priced others out of the market. It is a normal strategy. And this is why I wonder why do asic manufacturers compete in this sort of market. Why not focus on some algo that has no asic yet. Dragon can make money there without competition. Max btc difficulty can rise is about 0.7T per month and this without new manufacturers coming in. Last month till now, it only rose 0.5T. This is why bitmain can now deliver a miner to u in the same week and not need 3 months. It is overcapacity. I hope bitmain fires some workers and lower production but sigh, it seems they have lowered asic price again...sigh.
Moderator's note: This post was edited by frodocooper to remove a nested quote. |
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Okay......this is alot of bad assumptions so let me go through them 1 by 1.
[...]
Edited. I disagree that it is a payout issue. It is not a coincidence that all the big mining pools are there, where the cheap power is in china. If u want the cheapest pool, go to kano pool. Their fees are 0.9% if I recall right. U earn a little bit more there but still, u dont see miners flocking there and making it a big pool. If dragonmints get popular, I believe all pools will have asicboost integration because they want hashrate. They can mine at their usual pool, and not on some new dragonpool
Moderator's note: This post was edited by frodocooper to trim the quote from Thetaj. |
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What is up with everyone in this thread acting like ETH is the only mineable coin? There are a shitload of other algos out there. Unless you are using old AMD cards, mining ETH hasn't been the most profitable coin to mine in almost a year. Blows my mind how people act like the sky is falling and its the end of mining because Bitmain is releasing an "ASIC" that is underpowered and overpriced and not even available for 3 months.
ETH difficulty will go up. This forces alot of gpu miners to mine other algo. Other algo diffficulty will go through the roof. Alot of gpu will just not be profitable and will be sold in the market as used gpu. Prices of new and used GPU will drop. |
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ASIC manufacturers have been mining on gpu only coins for months now. That has killed profitability almost everywhere for gpu miners. I expect a strong backlash and a bunch of algo changes coming up.
We dont know for sure about that. It could have just been the gpu miners that push it up. After all, GPU is sold so much to crypto miners that the price is elevated. Gamers are suffering. Putting that aside, difficulty has risen up alot on its own and now, a strong asic appears to increase it more. |
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Competing in this space is incredibly difficult for many reasons. Firstly it's incredibly costly to tape out your own ASICs, especially for new process node (we're using 10nm), the NRE is already ludicrous - not to mention all the cascade of expenses that follow, and yield loss at every stage of the process. Then you have to deal with highly questionable, anti competitive practices perpetrated by monopolies - like buying out all the components needed to make the miner or making arrangements that they be unavailable to competitors; and of course price wars where they can afford to sell at cost or below cost for long enough to kill competition. It would seem many of the posters in this thread still think of mining back in the days when you only needed a million or two at most from start to finish and there wasn't any strong monopoly.
Decentralization is hard. Halong Mining was started specifically to try an bring a bit more balance to the equation as a response to growing centralization - but the incentives of the Bitcoin system are that of economics incentives. Unfortunately the economics have become incredibly challenging for newcomers in order to enter and thrive in.
Overall, we'd like to thank everyone who has supported the project in spirit and with their orders.
Can we stop with this decentralization bullshit? Dont make stuff up just to market self as if it is helping bitcoin or something. Look, u did this to make profit. And slushpool promoted it because they hoped to get more hashrate on their pool, to profit as well. Nothing wrong there but lets stop bullshitting. https://www.buybitcoinworldwide.com/mining/pools/The top 8 bitcoin pools are antpool, btc.top, btc.com, bixin, btcc.com pool, f2pool, viabtc bwpool. All in china. Number 10 is slushpool with 3% of all blocks. The antminer S9 and other miners can be pointed at ANY pool. The S9 is pointed to antpool and f2pool by default but it isnt pointed at btc.top,btc.com, bixin or viabtc pool,etc. People CHOOSE TO point their miners to pools of their choice. S9 standard settings can only point to 3 pools as it is, not 8. People CHOSE to make these china pools big. The main reason is because china has alot of cheap power and thus, most of the miners and pools run there. The only way decentralization can occur is if china kicks these miners out of china and that will be if coal, which is used to power these miners, pollutes the air too much. If dragonmints get popular, all these china-pools will also have asicboost protocol implemented into their pools and the chinese miners that buy dragonmints, will put it in china together with the pool they have always been using for their S9s and Avalons. Why not promote your products because they actually work well, because there is good non-bs communication and good after sales service. Food for thought. |
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And it turns out that the F3 shown in that video is apparently NOT an ETH ASIC miner.
Bitmain released their E3 today for preorders - delivery NOT 'TILL MID JULY (indicating that they do NOT have many units on hand).
180 Mhash
800 watts
(they CLAIM these are minimums, but they'd have to do a TON better to change the below commentary).
About the same hashate and same power draw as a well-tuned 6-card RX 480/580 "BIOS modded for memory straps" rig.
Slightly LESS hashrate and slightly MORE power draw than a well-tuned 6-card GTX 1070 rig.
NOT exactly a GPU mining killer.
Note that they would have to sell well over ONE MILLION of these units to achieve 50% of the current ETH network hashrate.
For perspective, current Bitcoin network hashrate equates out pretty closely to 2 Million S9 units (but PART of that hashware is LW.COM internal-usage miners, some is Avalon 721/741 units, some is EBang miners, et cetera - Bitmain PROBABLY has sold a total of ONE MILLION S9 units but it took them almost 2 YEARS to manage that despite having THE best performance miner on the market).
The E3 is NOT a GPU mining killer - in fact, I doubt it's going to make much more than a SMALL DENT in ethash mining profitability before ETH goes Proof of Stake and the REAL shakeout happens.
On the positive side, they DID get the price at $800 to a reasonable level, and probably WILL sell as many of these units as they choose to make since that's a LOT cheaper than building a GPU rig that can match the performance.
It is nice to be positive buddy. I notice u often are. But lets look at the chart https://etherscan.io/chart/difficultyOn 1st Jan 2018, difficulty is about 1938 TH. On 1st April 2018, it is about 3200 TH. This is 1262 TH higher, or 65% higher, in just 3 months and this is without the ETH miner being sold to public. Ethereum price did not increase by 65% to keep mining at the same profitability. That why profitability has dropped. In fact ETH price dropped while difficulty increases. The manufacturers ramp up production in anticipation of future price increases of the coin but coin prices wont rise up like last year. We have overcapacity of mining equipment manufacturing and yes, I know u disagree with me. 65% increase in 3 months is roughly about 18% monthly with compounding included. Thus, if the coin price increases by 18% a month, and network difficulty increases by 18% a month, that would make profitability to be the same. Thats not the case. I say overcapacity of mining equipment exist even without this new eth miner. And now this ethminer appears... This increase is without a bitmain coming in to pump up difficulty. Thus, difficulty can increase at a higher rate now because a new manufacturer is now pushing it up too, not just the current ones. This is why competition in mining is stupid. It hurts those at the bottom, the miners most. Just my 2 cents. |
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The price is much lower than I imagined. The big question is, how long would they be using these machines to mine? Is it possible to identify? Cause doubt they were not already using such machines, and are only now passing on to other users.
Also why is it not available in China. It is only sold to the outside China. China has too much power mining crypto. It is polluting their air because most of it are powered using coal. Coal is a dirty fuel. |
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I wonder wat samsung is thinking now. Didnt they want to go in this sector hahahaha
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Worst Case Scenario - GPUs get dumped en masse in secondary market. This leads to cheap GPUs for gamers since alot is dumped at once. Gamers are happy. Nvidia/AMD/Micron stock drops. No more premium price for new Graphic cards.
and as more gamers have better gpus overall gaming experience can increase... but don't forget asic = 1 algo... gpu... everything  , including gaming... 4 way sli of 1080ti ? and raytracing finally (maybe) just around the corner  . U know, it is possible that there will be alot of used GPUs hanging around the secondary market, and those new cards wont be bought for awhile because there is so much gamer demand and there are much more used GPU miners. One miner easily have anything from 6-100 GPU cards. One gamer needs 1 card only. How big is ethereum mining compared to other coins? Because when those GPUs move out of ethereum and into other coins like ZEC, XMR, etc, theoretically, it should drive those coins difficulty through the roof. |
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Worst Case Scenario - GPUs get dumped en masse in secondary market. This leads to cheap GPUs for gamers since alot is dumped at once. Gamers are happy. Nvidia/AMD/Micron stock drops. No more premium price for new Graphic cards.
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This is bad for GPU owners if ETH does not fork.
These days, mining is so dangerous. Something appears out of nowhere to make old mining equipment obsolete.
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hopefully the second batch, which i will get, has better units to reach the 16th at 1600W...
Ohh, I see. U are taking 1480w x 1.08 which is the maximum allowance = 1600watts So the worst units should have 1600watts @ 16th = 100 watts per TH. Best unit should be under that number. Maybe, pray hard buddy.
Moderator's note: This post was edited by frodocooper to remove nested quotes. |
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They made a video that shows 1460 watts at 16.2 TH a few months back but that is not
seems that results you guys got anyway fall into expected variation of +-8% specified on website tho Not at all The video showed 1460w / 16.2TH = 90.12 watts per TH Assuming the 90.12 watts per TH is the best unit. That would mean the worst unit is 90.12 x 1.08 = 97.3w per TH. Most units are worse than that at above 100w per TH. Something is wrong with that video. Even if u use 1460w/ 16 TH = 91.25w per TH. 91.25 x 1.08 = 98.55w per TH. Worst unit should have 98.55w per TH efficiency. The numbers are not that good at all. They may not have been honest with that video. It does not make sense. Lets see if Halong can deliver and give the numbers for their other 3 different miners. All their other miners claim to have better numbers than bitmain I think. I recall they release a miner as soon as bitmain released theirs and their numbers were always better. It is weird. I was in awe back then. Well, I am the curious type. |
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Does not look like this will be going anywhere at this rate. No big plans?
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reading all these conspiracy bs I have pretty much no questions left, besides what was a reason y'all guys to not join that Dragonmint chat the invite to which I personally found here in the thread?
I never been using this forum since i'm not even running an operation myself, just selling them miners. But when I was into legit checking Halong of course I ended up here and found the invite. Being there at the chat for couple months straight I cleared all my previous concerns and made a bulk order with Halong after taking orders from my clients which was partly shipped last week and is shipping the remainder now.
Why all your discussions are spinning around someone being OG on this thread? No offense but all of them names you called out are authorities only here and that's it. In the meantime all the people you scam-shamed before which supported halong in the beginning, are well known on the scene, not only this forum.
By the way there are a guy above who is willing to sell some dragonmints he has on hand. if anybody so into this drama why can't y'all crowdfound a couple units for Philip and HaggsFIN rather than still shaming dimaze for his post count lol
As far as I can see the problem is y'all are thinking its obligatory for halong to send these units for free to put some respect on you guys since y'all have shit ton of posts here ? but thats plain ridiculous.
edit: grammar since was posting from mobile
There are have been many such scams in the past and Halong looked like a scam from the start. Thus, people reacted as such to protect others. It does not help that Halong did not demo it properly or communicate and look at their efficiency numbers, it is not as advertised as it is. It makes u wonder if thats the reason they did not want to demo the unit. They made a video that shows 1460 watts at 16.2 TH a few months back but that is not possible from the numbers we are getting. It tells u alot does it? It is but a suggestion. They dont have to send anything to philip but then, they should not have agreed to it in the first place. Just my 2 cents.
Moderator's note: This post was edited by frodocooper to remove a nested quote. |
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Let's say Halong stole the shit out of Bitmain's designs and everything. WHY DO YOU CARE?
Bitmain does sue. Lawsuit might complicate things for users. Here are TH/s & wattage for 4 rigs I am looking at right now:
#1: 15.15TH/s @ 1647w (Myrig PSU). 108.71w per TH
#2: 15.42TH/s @ 1586w (Myrig PSU). 102.85w per TH
#3: 15.51TH/s @ 1477w (Myrig PSU). 95.23w per TH
#4: 15.24Th/s @1680w (EVGA 1600 G2). 110.24 TH
Hashrate is fairly stable when raising room temps from 70 degrees F to 80 degrees F
Wattage is taken from APC AP8641 PDU display on #1, 2, & 3. Wall outlet meter being used on #4
board temps range from 66-75 degrees, not sure why so much variance from one rig to the next but hopefully new firmware will improve power consumption and hashrate.
I just swapped out rig #1 Myrig PSU with Bitmain 1600watt PSU and saw no improvement in numbers. Wish I had some larger PSU's and try what Phil suggested.
Rig #5 is at home and I ran it in a much cooler room temp over night to see what would happen and the hash rate dropped from 15.40 TH/s to below 13.0TH/s. EDIT: I warmed up the room and happy to report it is hashing 16.3 TH/s on slush
EDIT 2: Hashrate back down to 14.50TH/s
1570 / 15.5 = 101.2watts per TH. Ok, so now we have 5 comparison numbers --------------- S9 - 1420w/13.8th = 102.9 watts per TH Elok Dragonmint #1: 15.15TH/s @ 1647w (Myrig PSU). 108.71w per TH #2: 15.42TH/s @ 1586w (Myrig PSU). 102.85w per TH #3: 15.51TH/s @ 1477w (Myrig PSU). 95.23w per TH #4: 15.24Th/s @1680w (EVGA 1600 G2). 110.24 T Zand_ Dragonmint #5: 15.5TH/s @ 1570w = 101.2 w per TH. Perhaps, those who have units, post pics and add your numbers.
Moderator's note: This post was edited by frodocooper to remove nested quotes. |
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I dont buy that at all. This is freaking 2018. What is so difficult about shipping a machine over. It can be done in ONE DAY. There are only a few tweets about the machine's existence and no detailed reviews.
We have a foruner whose review claims that the machine is actually NOT as good as advertized. Some of the machine are abit better than S9 and some are worse.
No one wants a cherry picked review that shows good numbers. The fellow can probably drive to u and help u with the review. It is also suspicious that all your 2018 posts are in halong thread and your post before that was in 2015. No offense intended.
Quite honestly, if I was in Halong's shoes, I'd probably do the exact same thing. The March orders were the early believers and the ones that should deserve their units before anyone else. I certainly wouldn't ship test units to anyone before my very first customers that had paid me nearly half a year ago. Remember, everyone had the opportunity to see the unit in person -- which many people did, in January at multiple avenues. There is zero chance I would ship anyone else the units prior to my early believers. I think I've made my point clear and concise with my activity and have proven beyond a reasonable doubt that I am the original account holder. As indicated, if there was a manufacturer representative that lived close to you, I'm sure anyone here would do the same thing I have done. With regards to reviewing the unit, if anyone wants to fly/drive out to Milwaukee and visit my shop when I receive the unit, they are welcome to do so. I'm happy to host you and review the unit together with anyone that wishes to. Cobra, if you fly out, I'll even get a crow  Nope. The fact that u are near a manufacturer is more reason that u should not do the review as it may not be impartial. If Halong was good, they should honor their deal to send philip a demo unit rather than talk and not carry out something so simple as shipping. No one knows if u are an original account holder as your 2018 posts are all in this thread only. Your previous post before halong is in 2015 and u just happen to live nearby halong haha. Think about it. It almost look like they gonna cherry pick a unit to do a review. There are so few tweets on this as it is and some still think it is an elaborate scam and that those tweets are paid. If halong was good, they would send 1 demo to a few 3rd party established members, maybe philip, hagsfin, dabs, searing. We will have 4 independent and fair reviews of the units. This would be best and fair. The efficiency of the unit can differ substantially after all, as a member reported with comparison of 5 units. |
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Yeah, they haven't gotten back to me since my first email, and I'm not inclined to follow up, unless they have extra units around they want me to review too.
I think they should have units. Slushpool tweeted they hit 3EH on 24th march. It is now about 3.0 EH but it was 2.9EH about 10 hours ago. It has been 2.85-3EH the last week from what I notice on the app. So, I dont think they sold much. It is tough to sell in this market for one thing. Perhaps u can try again. |
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