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Author Topic: [CLOSED] S.DICE - SatoshiDICE 100% Dividend-Paying Asset on MPEx  (Read 315719 times)
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August 22, 2012, 07:01:40 AM
 #241


The FAQ mentions about having to pay a 20 BTC amount to register your GPG key with them.

So does this mean that it would cost each person 20 BTC just to put in a bid for the shares?


I have less than 1 btc in my wallet. So I guess I will skip this IPO.

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August 22, 2012, 12:44:22 PM
 #242

Two points need to be spelled out here.

A. The lists of "risks", real or perceived, is this nonsense that VAs throw at first-time founders in the hopes that they may be strong-armed. Nobody sitting at this table is a first timer. I could make you a list of 100 risks related to connecting to an internet forum, or to getting out of bed in the morning. Let's save this entire line for fresher turnips, it's a shame to waste it on this occasion.

B. The pretense is that investors are somehow in a strong position in this deal. This is patently false. There are potentially nine and a half million btc to be invested, that's three hundred times the total value on offer. That's right, there's three hundred of you. There's just one SatoshiDICE!

For all the talk about "btc risks" we all know what the real story is: in a couple of years btc is solidly in two figures, mining is barely profitable, in the commodity range (say, 1%?) and there's just not that many revenue streams to be had in a purely deflationary currency. Those are the risks, and you know it, or else you wouldn't be here in the first place. "The risks" are that if you lose out now you will never, ever, ever meet this deal again.

That's about it.

Who are you again?

I think Mr Popescu needs to hire better marketing people.

There are no PR people. This is Mircea Popescu himself. Go to #btc-assets and you will recognize his writing style.

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August 22, 2012, 12:48:57 PM
 #243


The FAQ mentions about having to pay a 20 BTC amount to register your GPG key with them.

So does this mean that it would cost each person 20 BTC just to put in a bid for the shares?


I have less than 1 btc in my wallet. So I guess I will skip this IPO.

You can buy the pass through on GLBSE.

PGP key id at pgp.mit.edu 0xA68F4B7C

To get help and support for GLBSE please email support@glbse.com
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August 22, 2012, 02:11:35 PM
 #244

Factory, we have a very easy to delineate problem here. You say

Quote
I am not 'strong-arming' anyone. I don't expect anything I say to change what the issuer will price this IPO at. I, however, enjoy discussing all theory and practice of investing and finance. I always attempt to do my due dilligence, and am meerly sharing my findings, thoughts, and opinions with others.

This is great. Then you follow by saying

Quote
The section I quoted of your last post exemplifies your bias and your unwillingness to accept uncertainty.

To tell anyone for certain that you know the future is dishonest. I find that to be terribly unprofessional, and I am somewhat shocked to see a statement such as that come from a "PR" account.

And here it starts. Nothing I have said actually translates to a denial of future uncertainty. If you want to go into dissecting semantics and pretend you don't understand what "the story is" means or such that's fine, but it will not make you look respectable, as you imagine. It will make you look [more] like a man on a mission. Which, I suppose, is fine by me if it's fine by you. It does however contradict the pretense you set forth above, and that's what'd be dishonest in this entire discussion.

It is dishonest to claim that 10 times 10 is a thousand. It is dishonest to claim somebody is "unprofessional" because they're either not working for whoever's shilling you out or else you just don't like them. It is dishonest to deny the facts of the matter, such as they are.

That MPEx is held to standards nobody else is held to is perfectly fine. That people ask "Hey, what happens in case your domain gets seized" is great, because it gives us the opportunity to answer. I can understand why we're the only exchange asked these things: nobody cares about the others. Asking questions is not the problem. Pretending questions were not answered just because the answer doesn't come out to be what you wanted or expected it to be, that's dishonest. Getting a good answer and pretending it's a bad answer, that's dishonest. Claiming to be insulted by "LOL" and using "fuck" as a form of address, that's dishonest.

So, as far as "professional" goes, let me tell you a little about things you have no way of knowing, given that I work for the - so far only - people who professionally handle BTC securities. There are exactly two bitcoin companies listed in the bitcoin world so far. One is MPOE/MPEX. The other is SatoshiDICE! The reason both these exist as available investments for people in BTC is not the intrinsic strength or value of the investor market in BTC. Either owner could have had much better deals going to the established marketplaces.

The reason both of these exist is that it just so happens that their owners simultaneously a. don't really need the money and b. would like to see BTC flourish and develop. That's it. No amount of ranting and raving about how 10% dividends a year is too close to real world's 2.5 dollars / 650 dollar share and not close enough to imaginary 7% a week returns is going to matter in that discussion, because it can't make the respective owners either poorer or less desirous to see BTC flourish.

S.MPOE makes about half what S.DICE does, and is currently trading at a slight premium over what S.DICE is asking for. Thus the P/E multiplier of S.MPOE is closer to about 20x. That is what investors (the real variety, not the forum dweller variety) value it at. It is true that the owner there retained about 98% so far, and so that might have an impact, or else the growth potential is valued differently, or what have you. Either way that falls, based on actual experience as opposed to imaginary experience, S.DICE is a good buy.

We have talked to numerous companies that have valid business models in order to offer their shares to the interested public. There are exactly two answers that we hear with inordinate frequency. One is that the owner doesn't need the money, so a listing doesn't make sense. The other - heard in general as a reply to the observation that BTC will go to shit in a bucket if serious businesses don't start offering real investor debuchees and actual financial instruments - is that the owner does not want or need the hassle of a bunch of drama from two penny investors.

That is what you are doing, with your unwelcome and unwarranted delusions of self importance. You are, with every dishonest remark, with every goblet of bile, with every hateful and rude comment on this forum, you are making it more difficult for the actual professionals to close actual deals, and you are making it less likely for actual businesses to go BTC rather than traditional, and in short you are sticking nails in BTC's coffin. It's that simple: as long as BTC is perceived as "that currency in which they do Ponzis" we are, collectively and generally, going nowhere. We have a limited window of time to make BTC work, financially. If in 2020 all that's happening are still "investments" of the ilk we've seen offered all over this forum, the very notion of cryptocurrency might be too discredited to ever take off. If this insanity going on the lines of "bitcoin is for raising money to buy a toaster" is allowed to continue it might become our ceiling. As it is it will come to haunt us.

I haven't seen you explaining why ZIP is such a bad thing, back then. Why not? How's the honesty/dishonesty going there? I don't recall seeing you explaining why LIB.x were bad things, back in the day. Were you even around, in those times? Pirate uninsured bonds are trading in distress, 30-40 cents to the dollar. I was there saying it's dishonest, back then. Were you? Where were you? Were you being honest?

So, please, take a step away from your computer, and take a step away from yourself. And think. Am I being intelligent, and am I contributing something useful? It's perfectly fine to not have the money to go in, it's perfectly fine to have the money and not want to go in. It's perfectly fine to not go in. It is perfectly unfine to be carrying on in this manner.

My Credentials  | THE BTC Stock Exchange | I have my very own anthology! | Use bitcointa.lk, it's like this one but better.
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August 22, 2012, 02:20:23 PM
 #245

Factory, we have a very easy to delineate problem here. You say

Quote
I am not 'strong-arming' anyone. I don't expect anything I say to change what the issuer will price this IPO at. I, however, enjoy discussing all theory and practice of investing and finance. I always attempt to do my due dilligence, and am meerly sharing my findings, thoughts, and opinions with others.

This is great. Then you follow by saying

Quote
The section I quoted of your last post exemplifies your bias and your unwillingness to accept uncertainty.

To tell anyone for certain that you know the future is dishonest. I find that to be terribly unprofessional, and I am somewhat shocked to see a statement such as that come from a "PR" account.

And here it starts. Nothing I have said actually translates to a denial of future uncertainty. If you want to go into dissecting semantics and pretend you don't understand what "the story is" means or such that's fine, but it will not make you look respectable, as you imagine. It will make you look [more] like a man on a mission. Which, I suppose, is fine by me if it's fine by you. It does however contradict the pretense you set forth above, and that's what'd be dishonest in this entire discussion.

It is dishonest to claim that 10 times 10 is a thousand. It is dishonest to claim somebody is "unprofessional" because they're either not working for whoever's shilling you out or else you just don't like them. It is dishonest to deny the facts of the matter, such as they are.

That MPEx is held to standards nobody else is held to is perfectly fine. That people ask "Hey, what happens in case your domain gets seized" is great, because it gives us the opportunity to answer. I can understand why we're the only exchange asked these things: nobody cares about the others. Asking questions is not the problem. Pretending questions were not answered just because the answer doesn't come out to be what you wanted or expected it to be, that's dishonest. Getting a good answer and pretending it's a bad answer, that's dishonest. Claiming to be insulted by "LOL" and using "fuck" as a form of address, that's dishonest.

So, as far as "professional" goes, let me tell you a little about things you have no way of knowing, given that I work for the - so far only - people who professionally handle BTC securities. There are exactly two bitcoin companies listed in the bitcoin world so far. One is MPOE/MPEX. The other is SatoshiDICE! The reason both these exist as available investments for people in BTC is not the intrinsic strength or value of the investor market in BTC. Either owner could have had much better deals going to the established marketplaces.

The reason both of these exist is that it just so happens that their owners simultaneously a. don't really need the money and b. would like to see BTC flourish and develop. That's it. No amount of ranting and raving about how 10% dividends a year is too close to real world's 2.5 dollars / 650 dollar share and not close enough to imaginary 7% a week returns is going to matter in that discussion, because it can't make the respective owners either poorer or less desirous to see BTC flourish.

S.MPOE makes about half what S.DICE does, and is currently trading at a slight premium over what S.DICE is asking for. Thus the P/E multiplier of S.MPOE is closer to about 20x. That is what investors (the real variety, not the forum dweller variety) value it at. It is true that the owner there retained about 98% so far, and so that might have an impact, or else the growth potential is valued differently, or what have you. Either way that falls, based on actual experience as opposed to imaginary experience, S.DICE is a good buy.

We have talked to numerous companies that have valid business models in order to offer their shares to the interested public. There are exactly two answers that we hear with inordinate frequency. One is that the owner doesn't need the money, so a listing doesn't make sense. The other - heard in general as a reply to the observation that BTC will go to shit in a bucket if serious businesses don't start offering real investor debuchees and actual financial instruments - is that the owner does not want or need the hassle of a bunch of drama from two penny investors.

That is what you are doing, with your unwelcome and unwarranted delusions of self importance. You are, with every dishonest remark, with every goblet of bile, with every hateful and rude comment on this forum, you are making it more difficult for the actual professionals to close actual deals, and you are making it less likely for actual businesses to go BTC rather than traditional, and in short you are sticking nails in BTC's coffin. It's that simple: as long as BTC is perceived as "that currency in which they do Ponzis" we are, collectively and generally, going nowhere. We have a limited window of time to make BTC work, financially. If in 2020 all that's happening are still "investments" of the ilk we've seen offered all over this forum, the very notion of cryptocurrency might be too discredited to ever take off. If this insanity going on the lines of "bitcoin is for raising money to buy a toaster" is allowed to continue it might become our ceiling. As it is it will come to haunt us.

I haven't seen you explaining why ZIP is such a bad thing, back then. Why not? How's the honesty/dishonesty going there? I don't recall seeing you explaining why LIB.x were bad things, back in the day. Were you even around, in those times? Pirate uninsured bonds are trading in distress, 30-40 cents to the dollar. I was there saying it's dishonest, back then. Were you? Where were you? Were you being honest?

So, please, take a step away from your computer, and take a step away from yourself. And think. Am I being intelligent, and am I contributing something useful? It's perfectly fine to not have the money to go in, it's perfectly fine to have the money and not want to go in. It's perfectly fine to not go in. It is perfectly unfine to be carrying on in this manner.

Do your customers know you are a porn peddler (gore, underage etc)?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=102333.0

Do your customers know that the porn site you are running is against Romanian low?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_Romania

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August 22, 2012, 02:28:33 PM
 #246

zebedee
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August 22, 2012, 03:29:47 PM
 #247

As a bond trader ex-colleague is fond of saying:

There's no such thing as a bad bond, only a bad price

Buyer beware.
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August 22, 2012, 05:26:37 PM
 #248

Factory, we have a very easy to delineate problem here. You say

Quote
I am not 'strong-arming' anyone. I don't expect anything I say to change what the issuer will price this IPO at. I, however, enjoy discussing all theory and practice of investing and finance. I always attempt to do my due dilligence, and am meerly sharing my findings, thoughts, and opinions with others.

This is great. Then you follow by saying

Quote
The section I quoted of your last post exemplifies your bias and your unwillingness to accept uncertainty.

To tell anyone for certain that you know the future is dishonest. I find that to be terribly unprofessional, and I am somewhat shocked to see a statement such as that come from a "PR" account.

And here it starts. Nothing I have said actually translates to a denial of future uncertainty. If you want to go into dissecting semantics and pretend you don't understand what "the story is" means or such that's fine, but it will not make you look respectable, as you imagine. It will make you look [more] like a man on a mission. Which, I suppose, is fine by me if it's fine by you. It does however contradict the pretense you set forth above, and that's what'd be dishonest in this entire discussion.

It is dishonest to claim that 10 times 10 is a thousand. It is dishonest to claim somebody is "unprofessional" because they're either not working for whoever's shilling you out or else you just don't like them. It is dishonest to deny the facts of the matter, such as they are.

That MPEx is held to standards nobody else is held to is perfectly fine. That people ask "Hey, what happens in case your domain gets seized" is great, because it gives us the opportunity to answer. I can understand why we're the only exchange asked these things: nobody cares about the others. Asking questions is not the problem. Pretending questions were not answered just because the answer doesn't come out to be what you wanted or expected it to be, that's dishonest. Getting a good answer and pretending it's a bad answer, that's dishonest. Claiming to be insulted by "LOL" and using "fuck" as a form of address, that's dishonest.

So, as far as "professional" goes, let me tell you a little about things you have no way of knowing, given that I work for the - so far only - people who professionally handle BTC securities. There are exactly two bitcoin companies listed in the bitcoin world so far. One is MPOE/MPEX. The other is SatoshiDICE! The reason both these exist as available investments for people in BTC is not the intrinsic strength or value of the investor market in BTC. Either owner could have had much better deals going to the established marketplaces.

The reason both of these exist is that it just so happens that their owners simultaneously a. don't really need the money and b. would like to see BTC flourish and develop. That's it. No amount of ranting and raving about how 10% dividends a year is too close to real world's 2.5 dollars / 650 dollar share and not close enough to imaginary 7% a week returns is going to matter in that discussion, because it can't make the respective owners either poorer or less desirous to see BTC flourish.

S.MPOE makes about half what S.DICE does, and is currently trading at a slight premium over what S.DICE is asking for. Thus the P/E multiplier of S.MPOE is closer to about 20x. That is what investors (the real variety, not the forum dweller variety) value it at. It is true that the owner there retained about 98% so far, and so that might have an impact, or else the growth potential is valued differently, or what have you. Either way that falls, based on actual experience as opposed to imaginary experience, S.DICE is a good buy.

We have talked to numerous companies that have valid business models in order to offer their shares to the interested public. There are exactly two answers that we hear with inordinate frequency. One is that the owner doesn't need the money, so a listing doesn't make sense. The other - heard in general as a reply to the observation that BTC will go to shit in a bucket if serious businesses don't start offering real investor debuchees and actual financial instruments - is that the owner does not want or need the hassle of a bunch of drama from two penny investors.

That is what you are doing, with your unwelcome and unwarranted delusions of self importance. You are, with every dishonest remark, with every goblet of bile, with every hateful and rude comment on this forum, you are making it more difficult for the actual professionals to close actual deals, and you are making it less likely for actual businesses to go BTC rather than traditional, and in short you are sticking nails in BTC's coffin. It's that simple: as long as BTC is perceived as "that currency in which they do Ponzis" we are, collectively and generally, going nowhere. We have a limited window of time to make BTC work, financially. If in 2020 all that's happening are still "investments" of the ilk we've seen offered all over this forum, the very notion of cryptocurrency might be too discredited to ever take off. If this insanity going on the lines of "bitcoin is for raising money to buy a toaster" is allowed to continue it might become our ceiling. As it is it will come to haunt us.

I haven't seen you explaining why ZIP is such a bad thing, back then. Why not? How's the honesty/dishonesty going there? I don't recall seeing you explaining why LIB.x were bad things, back in the day. Were you even around, in those times? Pirate uninsured bonds are trading in distress, 30-40 cents to the dollar. I was there saying it's dishonest, back then. Were you? Where were you? Were you being honest?

So, please, take a step away from your computer, and take a step away from yourself. And think. Am I being intelligent, and am I contributing something useful? It's perfectly fine to not have the money to go in, it's perfectly fine to have the money and not want to go in. It's perfectly fine to not go in. It is perfectly unfine to be carrying on in this manner.

Do your customers know you are a porn peddler (gore, underage etc)?
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=102333.0

Do your customers know that the porn site you are running is against Romanian low?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_censorship_in_Romania


And that is a perfect example of how to completely avoid a thesis, and route around it entirely with FUD.  Roll Eyes

And ciuciu, I've asked politely before, if you want to discuss the merits or issues of MPEx, please do it elsewhere. This place is for debate about SatoshiDICE as an equity offering. Please work on your vendetta outside this thread.

Beyond this FUD stuff, I've been quite please with the debates. Discussion of finance, values, prices, and business is a great endeavor carried out by noble people. If all the world's problems were settled with free-market equity debates, the world would be a wonderful place Smiley


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August 22, 2012, 05:43:42 PM
 #249

Beyond this FUD stuff, I've been quite please with the debates. Discussion of finance, values, prices, and business is a great endeavor carried out by noble people. If all the world's problems were settled with free-market equity debates, the world would be a wonderful place Smiley

Wonderful and entertaining are two separate things.
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August 22, 2012, 06:02:03 PM
 #250

Beyond this FUD stuff, I've been quite please with the debates. Discussion of finance, values, prices, and business is a great endeavor carried out by noble people. If all the world's problems were settled with free-market equity debates, the world would be a wonderful place Smiley

I have enjoyed discussing this IPO. I feel I have made my points, and I will now refrain from posting on this thread.

While in my view it is unlikely; I hope this IPO is a success for the issuer and investors alike. I look forward to seeing how it unfolds.
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August 22, 2012, 06:47:46 PM
 #251

Beyond this FUD stuff, I've been quite please with the debates. Discussion of finance, values, prices, and business is a great endeavor carried out by noble people. If all the world's problems were settled with free-market equity debates, the world would be a wonderful place Smiley

Could we please have a direct answer as to why you chose MPOx instead of GLBSE to host the IPO? In my opinion this decision is quite a blemish.
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August 22, 2012, 07:19:49 PM
 #252

Beyond this FUD stuff, I've been quite please with the debates. Discussion of finance, values, prices, and business is a great endeavor carried out by noble people. If all the world's problems were settled with free-market equity debates, the world would be a wonderful place Smiley

I have enjoyed discussing this IPO. I feel I have made my points, and I will now refrain from posting on this thread.

While in my view it is unlikely; I hope this IPO is a success for the issuer and investors alike. I look forward to seeing how it unfolds.

Indeed it is all very interesting and I wish you luck. As for me, however, I'm waiting my usual 7 week period post-IPO before considering this asset. The market will tell us all very quickly if the asset is mispriced or not, and so I want to see how it trades, what the dividends are, what kind of growth it experiences over the next month+, what kind of competition moves in, and so forth. I don't really care what the pre-IPO numbers say, I only care about what actually occurs in the marketplace.

My best guess is that it's already extremely overvalued at IPO relative to other assets, but that doesn't mean it won't reach a buy area later on after a significant decline in price.

Also, read this, and read it again... this guy gets it:

Surely if one is bullish on BTC and believes that there will eventually be more good companies, 1.5% of all BTC seems unlikely in the long term, let alone growing beyond that. It might make sense if valued in USD though ($3.2 mil) - that number could have growth potential.
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August 22, 2012, 08:07:21 PM
 #253


The FAQ mentions about having to pay a 20 BTC amount to register your GPG key with them.

So does this mean that it would cost each person 20 BTC just to put in a bid for the shares?


I have less than 1 btc in my wallet. So I guess I will skip this IPO.
You could use a brokerage service.
I offer such services, and you would only be charged about .03 btc to place such a bid through me.

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August 22, 2012, 09:06:51 PM
 #254

Beyond this FUD stuff, I've been quite please with the debates. Discussion of finance, values, prices, and business is a great endeavor carried out by noble people. If all the world's problems were settled with free-market equity debates, the world would be a wonderful place Smiley

Could we please have a direct answer as to why you chose MPOx instead of GLBSE to host the IPO? In my opinion this decision is quite a blemish.


I've already answered this but will do so again. Fundamentally, I like seeing alternative platforms develop. I don't want GLBSE to be the only place companies can list, and it receives 90% of the attention. By listing a high-profile site like SD on MPEx, it diversifies the market. Further, since passthroughs can exist (and DeaDTerra has created one) it means the users of GLBSE will also be able to invest.

As mentioned before, I'm a big fan of GLBSE and have good relationships with the people involved on that site.

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August 22, 2012, 10:20:30 PM
 #255

This whole exchange mess really needs to be decoupled and decentralized. We have the ability to send dividend receiving addresses, sign them to prove ownership, and even sign proofs of transfer if someone wants to sell to someone else (e.g. I own a share linked to an address, I sell that share to someone with a different address, then I just send you a message asking you to record the other address as the new owner and sign that message with my address's private key). With all this new stuff Bitcoin offers, why are we relying on centralized service middlemen? Someone should get on creating a simple app that lets people issue and track shares by themselves automatically, and decouple the bidding/trading portion of it (you know, in the way that "someone" has created an automated lottery that doesn't rely on input from the owner and can run and be verified automatically). Hell, eBay would work for trading shares that way.

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August 22, 2012, 11:24:48 PM
 #256

This whole exchange mess really needs to be decoupled and decentralized.

Agreed. This is the problem that Open Transactions claims to solve:

https://github.com/FellowTraveler/Open-Transactions
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August 23, 2012, 02:13:32 PM
 #257

Quote
This whole exchange mess really needs to be decoupled and decentralized.

You're right in that "the exchange mess". Without going into historical causes of the present situation, we don't think the solution you propose works. The correct solution would be:

Quote
This whole exchange mess really needs to be taken out of the hands of amateurs and be done correctly by people who have experience with such things. Citizen finance is worse than citizen dentistry.

It's what we're doing here, at any rate.

My Credentials  | THE BTC Stock Exchange | I have my very own anthology! | Use bitcointa.lk, it's like this one but better.
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August 23, 2012, 02:16:15 PM
 #258

Quote
This whole exchange mess really needs to be decoupled and decentralized.

You're right in that "the exchange mess". Without going into historical causes of the present situation, we don't think the solution you propose works. The correct solution would be:

Quote
This whole exchange mess really needs to be taken out of the hands of amateurs and be done correctly by people who have experience with such things. Citizen finance is worse than citizen dentistry.

It's what we're doing here, at any rate.

And given to a porn star like you, Mircea Popescu.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=102333.0


Rassah
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August 23, 2012, 06:12:19 PM
 #259

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This whole exchange mess really needs to be taken out of the hands of amateurs and be done correctly by people who have experience with such things. Citizen finance is worse than citizen dentistry.

It's what we're doing here, at any rate.

Isn't that the whole entire point of Bitcoin: to give the power of finance back to the citizens, because the people at the top only THINK they know what they are doing, but still f*ck things up as badly as a regular Joe Shmoe would? (Like in 2008)
And what kind of fancy finance training do you need, exactly, just to auction off % shares of your company at market-determined rates? Just put it out there and let people pay what they think you are worth.

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August 23, 2012, 06:19:16 PM
Last edit: August 23, 2012, 07:08:51 PM by ciuciu
 #260

Quote
This whole exchange mess really needs to be taken out of the hands of amateurs and be done correctly by people who have experience with such things. Citizen finance is worse than citizen dentistry.

It's what we're doing here, at any rate.

Isn't that the whole entire point of Bitcoin: to give the power of finance back to the citizens, because the people at the top only THINK they know what they are doing, but still f*ck things up as badly as a regular Joe Shmoe would? (Like in 2008)
And what kind of fancy finance training do you need, exactly, just to auction off % shares of your company at market-determined rates? Just put it out there and let people pay what they think you are worth.

Please stop being rational Smiley. We are all here to make him rich. We just want to switch the handlers.

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