Obama or Romney ?

[mdude77]

I have seen them doing jobs that we can not fill in Maryland without them.  On the Eastern Shore we do not have enough Mexicans to pick the fields. 

Maryland is not unique. The same can be said about practically every state.

What are Mexicans doing this job?  If they can "make a living" from it, why can't Americans?  What's different?


M

[jojo69]

What are Mexicans doing this job?  If they can "make a living" from it, why can't Americans?  What's different?


M

they can, all they have to do is put down the bong and go bust fucking ass in the field for 14 hours a day

[Atlas]

I have seen them doing jobs that we can not fill in Maryland without them.  On the Eastern Shore we do not have enough Mexicans to pick the fields. 

Maryland is not unique. The same can be said about practically every state.

What are Mexicans doing this job?  If they can "make a living" from it, why can't Americans?  What's different?


M

Americans will not settle for working $7 an hour, in a hot field for 14 hours. If the wage was higher, the business would be unprofitable. Everyone has their price and the price of an American is too high.

[Littleshop]

I have seen them doing jobs that we can not fill in Maryland without them.  On the Eastern Shore we do not have enough Mexicans to pick the fields. 

Maryland is not unique. The same can be said about practically every state.

What are Mexicans doing this job?  If they can "make a living" from it, why can't Americans?  What's different?


M

Americans do not want to pick fields.  The hourly price has exceeded $10 an hour here.  Higher then that and it gets too expensive to farm.  

Mexicans=food security.

[mdude77]

I have seen them doing jobs that we can not fill in Maryland without them.  On the Eastern Shore we do not have enough Mexicans to pick the fields. 

Maryland is not unique. The same can be said about practically every state.

What are Mexicans doing this job?  If they can "make a living" from it, why can't Americans?  What's different?


M

Americans do not want to pick fields.  The hourly price has exceeded $10 an hour here.  Higher then that and it gets too expensive to farm.  

Mexicans=food security.

There's something wrong with this picture.

M

[Littleshop]

I have seen them doing jobs that we can not fill in Maryland without them.  On the Eastern Shore we do not have enough Mexicans to pick the fields. 

Maryland is not unique. The same can be said about practically every state.

What are Mexicans doing this job?  If they can "make a living" from it, why can't Americans?  What's different?


M

Americans do not want to pick fields.  The hourly price has exceeded $10 an hour here.  Higher then that and it gets too expensive to farm.  

Mexicans=food security.

There's something wrong with this picture.

M

Maybe so, but it is reality in many places. 

[Atlas]

I have seen them doing jobs that we can not fill in Maryland without them.  On the Eastern Shore we do not have enough Mexicans to pick the fields. 

Maryland is not unique. The same can be said about practically every state.

What are Mexicans doing this job?  If they can "make a living" from it, why can't Americans?  What's different?


M

Americans do not want to pick fields.  The hourly price has exceeded $10 an hour here.  Higher then that and it gets too expensive to farm.  

Mexicans=food security.

There's something wrong with this picture.

M

No, there's nothing wrong at all. Different cultures have different tolerances.

[myrkul]

No, there's nothing wrong at all. Different cultures have different tolerances.

Differences exist even from person to person.

[notme]

there is nothing, NOTHING! that will create "enough" revenue

not defense cuts, not social security, certainly not the more politically palatable pittances bandied about by one candidate or another

it is all smoke and mirrors now, until the wheels come off in earnest

That's ludicrous. While it is most likely that the problems will not be remedied, it certainly is possible with persistent focus and time to get out of the debt problem we have. Canada went from ~64% GDP public debt in 1997 to ~28% public debt in 2008. I don't think we WILL course correct, but its definitely possible.

While the debt servicing is still lower than the tax revenue there is still a posibility of reducing the debt by cutting spending. Once the debt payments rise higher than the tax revenue the only way to eliminate the debt would be to raise taxes or print more money. To anybody who is familiar with math, it should be obvious that we only have a short time to fix things (balance the budget, pay down debt, etc.) before the situation gets completely out of control.

What I would like to see happen: income tax should be flattened, exemptions and credits eliminated so there is a single tax rate for all income. At the same time, the spending should be drastically cut: Close oversea military bases, increase minimum social security receiving age, sell off national parks (preferably to states to make state parks or to non-profits who will care for them), raise the interest rate on student loans, give all federal employees a 10% paycut, and whatever else can be cut. After the tax revenue rises above the spending, the surplus can be used to pay down the debt, eliminating that huge chunk of the budget that goes to debt servicing. After the debt is eliminated, taxes should be lowered (still keeping it as a flat income tax so everybody benefits from the lowering) and governemnt services can be expanded.

Fuck you.  We're already paying 6% variable and the only likely direction is already up.  Your talking about a group of people for which 50% can't find employment that actually uses the skills they were promised were valuable.  Older people are working longer because of the tough economic times and so fresh graduates can't find jobs.  How much more burden do you expect us to bear?  Our "elders" have already given us a pile of steaming shit for a country when they were handed a land of opportunity.  We won't take much more abuse before you start seeing violence.  I personally am more anti-violence than almost anyone my age I know, but I can't control my peers.

[kokojie]

I support feedom of movement, I would like to see the borders opened much more than they are now, and practical policies and procudures put into place for people to immigrate legally.

You don't see US states putting up border patrolls and inspection points, this freedom of movement has been a great boon to the US. Why would we not see similar benefits from having national borders unrestricted?

++

I'm glad my family immigrated when Ellis Island was open, it helped us a lot. I want others to have that same freedom. We obviously need to find ways to more productively integrate immigrants. Each person represents a tremendous potential both economically and socially. Only seeing the potential downsides to immigration seems un-american to me.

Immigration, illegal or otherwise, is only a problem when:

a) the country is getting too full
b) immigrants come for a free lunch

a isn't happening
b is happening from mexico because of government handouts.   get rid of the handouts "stealing from peter to pay paul" and you won't have this problem anymore.

M

B is irrelevant.    Yes, people have been given handouts, but Mexicans are not getting anywhere near what they put in.  They are a net positive to the economy.  We are FUCKING ourselves by encouraging hard workers to leave.  Maybe I am in an usual area (Maryland) but I have only seen Mexicans working hard on roads, picking crops and doing outdoor work.  I have seen them doing jobs that we can not fill in Maryland without them.  On the Eastern Shore we do not have enough Mexicans to pick the fields. 

They might be a net positive for the near term, but what about the future. The slave owners 200 years ago also thought it was a net positive to own black slaves, they didn't think their sons and daughters will one day be wage slaves to support a 25% unemployed black population that rely on welfare/food stamps.

[jojo69]

Fuck you.  We're already paying 6% variable and the only likely direction is already up.  Your talking about a group of people for which 50% can't find employment that actually uses the skills they were promised were valuable.  Older people are working longer because of the tough economic times and so fresh graduates can't find jobs.  How much more burden do you expect us to bear?  Our "elders" have already given us a pile of steaming shit for a country when they were handed a land of opportunity.  We won't take much more abuse before you start seeing violence.  I personally am more anti-violence than almost anyone my age I know, but I can't control my peers.

whoa buddy, agree with you on the generational warfare, agree that times are tough, where exactly do you propose the money comes from?

[kokojie]

I have seen them doing jobs that we can not fill in Maryland without them.  On the Eastern Shore we do not have enough Mexicans to pick the fields. 

Maryland is not unique. The same can be said about practically every state.

What are Mexicans doing this job?  If they can "make a living" from it, why can't Americans?  What's different?


M

Americans will not settle for working $7 an hour, in a hot field for 14 hours. If the wage was higher, the business would be unprofitable. Everyone has their price and the price of an American is too high.

That's false, if they can't find anyone to work the fields, that's because their pay is too low. It won't be unprofitable if everyone was paying higher wages and raising prices. Food is too cheap in this country, the waste of food is pretty disturbing to be honest (estimated 40% food produced go to waste).

[myrkul]

They might be a net positive for the near term, but what about the future. The slave owners 200 years ago also thought it was a net positive to own black slaves, they didn't think their sons and daughters will one day be wage slaves to support a 25% unemployed black population that rely on welfare/food stamps.

The problem there is not the former slaves (or their descendents), but the programs themselves. Before welfare, Harlem was a relatively affluent area:

[firefop]

Americans will not settle for working $7 an hour, in a hot field for 14 hours. If the wage was higher, the business would be unprofitable. Everyone has their price and the price of an American is too high.

That's false, if they can't find anyone to work the fields, that's because their pay is too low. It won't be unprofitable if everyone was paying higher wages and raising prices. Food is too cheap in this country, the waste of food is pretty disturbing to be honest (estimated 40% food produced go to waste).

Exactly correct. The problem with illegal migrant labor is that farming shouldn't be leverage business - a farmer should farm as much as he, his family and employees can farm. We shouldn't be turning a blind eye to them importing 1000 illegals for harvest at slave wages.

But we also need to remove subsidy programs that pay farmers to now grow crops - they're only in place to keep food prices up...

[notme]

Fuck you.  We're already paying 6% variable and the only likely direction is already up.  Your talking about a group of people for which 50% can't find employment that actually uses the skills they were promised were valuable.  Older people are working longer because of the tough economic times and so fresh graduates can't find jobs.  How much more burden do you expect us to bear?  Our "elders" have already given us a pile of steaming shit for a country when they were handed a land of opportunity.  We won't take much more abuse before you start seeing violence.  I personally am more anti-violence than almost anyone my age I know, but I can't control my peers.

whoa buddy, agree with you on the generational warfare, agree that times are tough, where exactly do you propose the money comes from?

I'm okay with the other suggestions made by bitcoinbear.  In fact, I'm all for reform of the student loan industry.  But raising interest rates on one of the groups that is struggling the hardest is outrageous.

Yes, we absolutely need to put restrictions on who can take out student loans (GPA requirements, minimum # of hours, no alcohol related offenses, etc).  I hate all forms of government guaranteed loans, but you can't fuck over those of us who have worked hard to better ourselves so we can provide useful labor.

I am in grad school now, and my education is paid for by my GTA position, but I have about $20k debt still to be paid down from undergraduate.  I graduated early with a 3.4 GPA from a great engineering school.  I have made every payment on time or early and I have even made several extra payments on my loans.  How am I rewarded?  By paying more interest than someone who takes a mortgage out on their home.  By suggestions that I should be paying more.  By suggestions that my friends, who are still smart but not quite as talented as me, who are struggling to pay the bills each month because they can't get a job outside of retail of food, pay more.  Whoa buddy yourself.  That shit pisses my off.

[bitcoinbear]

Fuck you.  We're already paying 6% variable and the only likely direction is already up.  Your talking about a group of people for which 50% can't find employment that actually uses the skills they were promised were valuable.  Older people are working longer because of the tough economic times and so fresh graduates can't find jobs.  How much more burden do you expect us to bear?  Our "elders" have already given us a pile of steaming shit for a country when they were handed a land of opportunity.  We won't take much more abuse before you start seeing violence.  I personally am more anti-violence than almost anyone my age I know, but I can't control my peers.

whoa buddy, agree with you on the generational warfare, agree that times are tough, where exactly do you propose the money comes from?

I'm okay with the other suggestions made by bitcoinbear.  In fact, I'm all for reform of the student loan industry.  But raising interest rates on one of the groups that is struggling the hardest is outrageous.

Yes, we absolutely need to put restrictions on who can take out student loans (GPA requirements, minimum # of hours, no alcohol related offenses, etc).  I hate all forms of government guaranteed loans, but you can't fuck over those of us who have worked hard to better ourselves so we can provide useful labor.

I am in grad school now, and my education is paid for by my GTA position, but I have about $20k debt still to be paid down from undergraduate.  I graduated early with a 3.4 GPA from a great engineering school.  I have made every payment on time or early and I have even made several extra payments on my loans.  How am I rewarded?  By paying more interest than someone who takes a mortgage out on their home.  By suggestions that I should be paying more.  By suggestions that my friends, who are still smart but not quite as talented as me, who are struggling to pay the bills each month because they can't get a job outside of retail of food, pay more.  Whoa buddy yourself.  That shit pisses my off.

The point is that everybody will have to give a little for this to work. If everybody says "Ok, the list is good except for the one point that effects me", then everything will get taken off the list and nothing will get done.

Once we pay down the debt we can go back to subsidizing student loans (although perhaps not quite so much, we don't want to get back into debt as a country).

If you cannot afford to pay back the student loans after you get out of college, perhaps you should reconsider taking them in the first place. (and by "you" I am not talking to you specifically, but the general you of all the people considering taking out student loans.) Many people take out student loans and then study subjects that will not help them pay back those loans. I even saw an article that says a "computer science" degree is basically worthless, companies are more interested in actual experience than a piece of paper.

[Littleshop]

I support feedom of movement, I would like to see the borders opened much more than they are now, and practical policies and procudures put into place for people to immigrate legally.

You don't see US states putting up border patrolls and inspection points, this freedom of movement has been a great boon to the US. Why would we not see similar benefits from having national borders unrestricted?

++

I'm glad my family immigrated when Ellis Island was open, it helped us a lot. I want others to have that same freedom. We obviously need to find ways to more productively integrate immigrants. Each person represents a tremendous potential both economically and socially. Only seeing the potential downsides to immigration seems un-american to me.

Immigration, illegal or otherwise, is only a problem when:

a) the country is getting too full
b) immigrants come for a free lunch

a isn't happening
b is happening from mexico because of government handouts.   get rid of the handouts "stealing from peter to pay paul" and you won't have this problem anymore.

M

B is irrelevant.    Yes, people have been given handouts, but Mexicans are not getting anywhere near what they put in.  They are a net positive to the economy.  We are FUCKING ourselves by encouraging hard workers to leave.  Maybe I am in an usual area (Maryland) but I have only seen Mexicans working hard on roads, picking crops and doing outdoor work.  I have seen them doing jobs that we can not fill in Maryland without them.  On the Eastern Shore we do not have enough Mexicans to pick the fields. 

They might be a net positive for the near term, but what about the future. The slave owners 200 years ago also thought it was a net positive to own black slaves, they didn't think their sons and daughters will one day be wage slaves to support a 25% unemployed black population that rely on welfare/food stamps.

racist much?

Black unemployment is not 25%.  It is not even 15%. 

For 2012 food stamps are less then 80 billion dollars (projected) , defense is 1000 to 1400 billion dollars.   And while it is silly to break down into race, the 85% employees blacks are paying taxes to support those on the food stamps.  Get over the race bullshit, that is not the problem with the budget. 

[notme]

Fuck you.  We're already paying 6% variable and the only likely direction is already up.  Your talking about a group of people for which 50% can't find employment that actually uses the skills they were promised were valuable.  Older people are working longer because of the tough economic times and so fresh graduates can't find jobs.  How much more burden do you expect us to bear?  Our "elders" have already given us a pile of steaming shit for a country when they were handed a land of opportunity.  We won't take much more abuse before you start seeing violence.  I personally am more anti-violence than almost anyone my age I know, but I can't control my peers.

whoa buddy, agree with you on the generational warfare, agree that times are tough, where exactly do you propose the money comes from?

I'm okay with the other suggestions made by bitcoinbear.  In fact, I'm all for reform of the student loan industry.  But raising interest rates on one of the groups that is struggling the hardest is outrageous.

Yes, we absolutely need to put restrictions on who can take out student loans (GPA requirements, minimum # of hours, no alcohol related offenses, etc).  I hate all forms of government guaranteed loans, but you can't fuck over those of us who have worked hard to better ourselves so we can provide useful labor.

I am in grad school now, and my education is paid for by my GTA position, but I have about $20k debt still to be paid down from undergraduate.  I graduated early with a 3.4 GPA from a great engineering school.  I have made every payment on time or early and I have even made several extra payments on my loans.  How am I rewarded?  By paying more interest than someone who takes a mortgage out on their home.  By suggestions that I should be paying more.  By suggestions that my friends, who are still smart but not quite as talented as me, who are struggling to pay the bills each month because they can't get a job outside of retail of food, pay more.  Whoa buddy yourself.  That shit pisses my off.

The point is that everybody will have to give a little for this to work. If everybody says "Ok, the list is good except for the one point that effects me", then everything will get taken off the list and nothing will get done.

Once we pay down the debt we can go back to subsidizing student loans (although perhaps not quite so much, we don't want to get back into debt as a country).

If you cannot afford to pay back the student loans after you get out of college, perhaps you should reconsider taking them in the first place. (and by "you" I am not talking to you specifically, but the general you of all the people considering taking out student loans.) Many people take out student loans and then study subjects that will not help them pay back those loans. I even saw an article that says a "computer science" degree is basically worthless, companies are more interested in actual experience than a piece of paper.

Every suggestion you gave other than "cut federal employee pay by 10%" affects me.

As for the student loan issue, like I said, I am all for being drastically more restrictive on who can take them out.  But that won't change the past where dumbasses thought it was a good idea to hand them out like candy and children were told that borrowing money to go to college was the only way to succeed.  The reason they have to be subsidized just to get it down to 6% is because the default rate is high due to the ongoing structure of the program.  But punishing me, who has paid as much or more than I owe every month since graduation is not fair.  First, fix the problem by adding restrictions, then maybe we can work something out.  By the way, when I decided to take them out, the rate was 4%.  It's already up to 6% and slowly rising.  As far as I can see, it is the only credit based industry in this country where interests rates are rising.  They have gone down for everyone else.

Oh, and while you're at it, let the housing market bottom instead of spending $40 billion/month subsidizing it.  That's about $130 per person per month in case you haven't done the math.  And yes, I'm a homeowner, so that would hurt me too, but it's more fair than raising interest rates on student loans.  Oh, and how about not bailing out corporations.  We may have privatization of profits, but way too many losses are publicized.  We left capitalism behind a long time ago.  Hopefully one day we can make it back to it.

[Atlas]

I have seen them doing jobs that we can not fill in Maryland without them.  On the Eastern Shore we do not have enough Mexicans to pick the fields. 

Maryland is not unique. The same can be said about practically every state.

What are Mexicans doing this job?  If they can "make a living" from it, why can't Americans?  What's different?


M

Americans will not settle for working $7 an hour, in a hot field for 14 hours. If the wage was higher, the business would be unprofitable. Everyone has their price and the price of an American is too high.

It won't be unprofitable if everyone was paying higher wages and raising prices. Food is too cheap in this country, the waste of food is pretty disturbing to be honest (estimated 40% food produced go to waste).

That's not for you to decide.

[Littleshop]

What I would like to see happen: income tax should be flattened, exemptions and credits eliminated so there is a single tax rate for all income. At the same time, the spending should be drastically cut: Close oversea military bases, increase minimum social security receiving age, sell off national parks (preferably to states to make state parks or to non-profits who will care for them), raise the interest rate on student loans, give all federal employees a 10% paycut, and whatever else can be cut. After the tax revenue rises above the spending, the surplus can be used to pay down the debt, eliminating that huge chunk of the budget that goes to debt servicing. After the debt is eliminated, taxes should be lowered (still keeping it as a flat income tax so everybody benefits from the lowering) and governemnt services can be expanded.

Why would you cut taxes for the rich (or punish horribly the middle class) while you are trying to balance the budget.  The only balanced budget in recent memory came from a 39% tax rate for the upper bracket.  It is simple, we have done it before, it WORKS.

Combine the additional revenue with modest across the board cuts including defense and you can get a balanced budget.  Leave student loans as they are, as the rate is ALREADY ABOVE PRIME.  Education is a cost for a functioning society and pays dividends later.  Changes need to be made to how colleges operate and to the very high costs but that is a separate issue.