OPEN LETTER to Donald, Patrick & Amir RE: Bitcoinica

[defxor]

Genjix and phantomcircuit are not scammers.  If this was an inside job, these two people were not in on it.

My vote is still on the creation of an "Utterly incompetent" tag.

[MelMan2002]

Genjix and phantomcircuit are not scammers.  If this was an inside job, these two people were not in on it.

My vote is still on the creation of an "Utterly incompetent" tag.

I don't care if they were part of an inside job or not.  The fact is, they had (still have?) control of MY MONEY (USD and BTC) and did not give ANY of it back despite repeated requests and proof of ownership.  If that doesn't warrant a scammer tag for these guys then what on earth does??

[bitcoinBull]

Motion to dismiss filed 10/12/12

http://webaccess.sftc.org/Scripts/Magic94/mgrqispi94.dll?APPNAME=IJS&PRGNAME=ROA22&ARGUMENTS=-ACGC12522983

Thanks. This is way more informative than the "No updates" on the bitcoinica.com frontpage.

I'd like Patrick Strateman to explain these motions, and his wishes and expectations of the other parties (Tihan Seale) in order to get customer funds returned.

OCT-12-2012   NOTICE OF MOTION AND MOTION TO QUASH SERVICE OF PROCESS FOR LACK OF PERSONAL JURISDICTION FILED BY DEFENDANT INTERSANGO LTD. STRATEMAN, PATRICK HEARING SET FOR NOV-13-2012 AT 09:30 AM IN DEPT 302        60.00

[repentance]

Instead, Amir posted the source code causing additional money to be stolen,  and no one has received any of their money back yet.

Roger, I've been extremely critical of the Intersango guys and the way they've handled this clusterfuck for a very long time but even I don't buy the idea that the Bitcoinica MtGox account was breached because Amir leaked the code.  Are you telling me that you seriously believe Zhou's explanation of the MtGox breach and how someone who just happened to have his credentials (but who doesn't read this forum) also just happened to come across the leaked code and then also happened to think that the MtGox API keys might be a password to something else?  Seriously?  Because given Zhou's ridiculous story about the MtGox breach, I wouldn't even trust his explanation of the Rackspace breach.

There are plenty of legitimate grounds on which to criticise the way that Donald, Patrick and Amir have handled the whole Bitcoinica disaster.  Let's not damage our own credibility by pretending to believe in the absurd.

[Transisto]

Instead, Amir posted the source code causing additional money to be stolen,  and no one has received any of their money back yet.

...Are you telling me that you seriously believe Zhou's explanation of the MtGox breach and how someone who just happened to have his credentials (but who doesn't read this forum) also just happened to come across the leaked code and then also happened to think that the MtGox API keys might be a password to something else?  Seriously?  Because given Zhou's ridiculous story about the MtGox breach, I wouldn't even trust his explanation of the Rackspace breach.

There are plenty of legitimate grounds on which to criticise the way that Donald, Patrick and Amir have handled the whole Bitcoinica disaster.  Let's not damage our own credibility by pretending to believe in the absurd.

+1

The fact that Intersango guy have not yet been able to communicate coherently has helped Zhou get away with it.  They haven't investigated or raised the hint of a doubt about Zhou's story.  IIRC they didn't even cooperate with Tihan/Murck when it was time to receive the stolen funds from Zhou.

There are still many hundred of thousand $ not recovered from last CHEN/ZHOU theft.

[ninjarobot]

Can't blame a guy for asking his money back.

However I can blame the custodians of our money for not acting in our best interest.

After Bitcoinica was sold and became a registered financial services provider Zhou (a minor) should have had his access to customer funds revoked. Backups should have been made. Reasonable security measures should have been in place. The ToS should have been respected. Thefts should have been reported and investigated. Efforts should have been made to recover funds. Customers should have been informed through proper channels. Promises should have been honored. None of this happened. The anger towards Donald, Patrick and Amir is justified. They might be victims in their own way but their actions have willingly victimized many more. Not a day goes by where I am not reminded of my unfortunate decision to put a large chunk of my savings in Bitcoinica.

[repentance]

After Bitcoinica was sold and became a registered financial services provider Zhou (a minor) should have had his access to customer funds revoked.

By Zhou's own admission, he was paid a lot of money to continue running Bitcoinica after it was sold and retained the profits Bitcoinica made between the time of the sale and January.  He continued to be paid to run Bitcoinica up until the Intersango guys were brought on board, and the emails leaked by Amir show that Zhou was only asked not to take a salary after Amir, Donald and Patrick had agreed not to take salaries until Bitcoinica's financial mess was sorted out. 

Zhou's credentials should absolutely have been revoked the day that the Intersango guys took over the management of Bitcoinica.  It's absolutely standard to revoke existing credentials and issue new ones.  The emails show that at the time the Rackspace happened, the Intersango guys were not considered "up to speed" on Bitcoinica, which is probably why Zhou still had managerial level access.

[disclaimer201]

They should have never taken on the task, at no time did their involvement with Bitcoinica surpass a lukewarm status. As if it's not a million dollar responsibilty, they wanted to make easy cash on the side giving their expertise. In the end greed fucked up everyone, on both sides- intersango and investors alike. This so called community is poisoned with greedy bastards and unaccountable snakelike entrepreneurs winding their way out. Anyway, intersango have contributed a great deal to fucking up the entire bitcoin project for many.

[repentance]

They should have never taken on the task, at no time did their involvement with Bitcoinica surpass a lukewarm status. As if it's not a million dollar responsibilty, they wanted to make easy cash on the side giving their expertise. In the end greed fucked up everyone, on both sides- intersango and investors alike. This so called community is poisoned with greedy bastards and unaccountable snakelike entrepreneurs winding their way out. Anyway, intersango have contributed a great deal to fucking up the entire bitcoin project for many.

Sure, there's no doubt that Bitcoin Consultancy was actively looking to be taken on board as security consultants for Bitcoinica after they discovered a flaw in the code which allowed the hot wallet to be emptied.  They admitted that following the Rackspace hack.  The emails leaked by Amir also seem to point to a vision of developing a "super-exchange" to rival MtGox, and merging the interests of Intersango and Bitcoinica probably seemed like a good way to accomplish that after TradeHill failed.

If the timeline given by the parties involved is correct, then it was a pretty short one and I suspect that there was way too much haste involved on all sides - something which set the scene for later disaster.  I think that every one of the parties involved sees themselves as a victim of at least one of the other parties and that at least some of their grievances are legitimate.  The real problem is that users became the victims of a ridiculous stand-off and that's pretty much destroyed any sympathy people might have had for the legitimate grievances of the parties involved.  I think that by the time the whole truth about the collapse of Bitcoinica comes out, the community will be beyond caring and no-one will end up feeling vindicated.

[Mushoz]

To be clear,

I offered to give up %100 of what I was owed, along with 3 other creditors so that everyone else would receive back %100 of their funds immediately.
Instead, Amir posted the source code causing additional money to be stolen,  and no one has received any of their money back yet.

Patrick (PhantomCircuit) has lied and stalled at every step of the way.
He is directly responsable for the delays,  if he would cooperate, everyone would have already had the vast majority of their money back.

He has also made personal threats against myself, and resorted to verbal insults towards his other customers.

Any legitimate businessman would not resort to such tactics.

Wow, you have my deepest respect. It's so unfortunate the intersango trio managed to fuck it all up. 4th fuckup and counting. How many more to go?

[deeplink]

I think that every one of the parties involved sees themselves as a victim of at least one of the other parties and that at least some of their grievances are legitimate.  The real problem is that users became the victims of a ridiculous stand-off and that's pretty much destroyed any sympathy people might have had for the legitimate grievances of the parties involved.  I think that by the time the whole truth about the collapse of Bitcoinica comes out, the community will be beyond caring and no-one will end up feeling vindicated.

That sounds like an acurate description of the psychology of the participants that caused the current state. And if you replace Bitcoinica with GLBSE it is exactly the same.

[MPOE-PR]

How is it that phantomcircuit STILL doesn't have a scammer tag??

That's an excellent question.

I think someone around here fucking respects him.

Who?

Genjix and phantomcircuit are not scammers.  If this was an inside job, these two people were not in on it.

Now that's pretty damning. Standing up for some scammers here, having gay spats with some other scammer re glbse, I guess the forum needs a pr department.

[guruvan]

Genjix and phantomcircuit are not scammers.  If this was an inside job, these two people were not in on it.

Now that's pretty damning. Standing up for some scammers here, having gay spats with some other scammer re glbse, I guess the forum needs a pr department.

considering other suggestions made by forum staff, and specifically theymos, I'm sure he should save the funds for a legal department, instead.

[greyhawk]

Now that's pretty damning. Standing up for some scammers here, having gay spats with some other scammer re glbse, I guess the forum needs a pr department.

I hear Comrade Nefario has experience in PR  

[yepreally]

I've been away from this for quite a while, and unfortunately it looks like I haven't missed much...  Assuming all goes well with the liquidation, is anyone else still concerned that all our claim information is lost?  Getting the money freed up is a huge step in the right direction.  However, how will they know who to give the money to once they have it?

[naima53]

I've been away from this for quite a while, and unfortunately it looks like I haven't missed much...  Assuming all goes well with the liquidation, is anyone else still concerned that all our claim information is lost?  Getting the money freed up is a huge step in the right direction.  However, how will they know who to give the money to once they have it?

Yes, please comment. Remained whether the liquidator base refund? (liquidator has the old claim database?) or will be made up a new one? I live in Russia and can not come to court, can I count on the return of my money?

[repentance]

I've been away from this for quite a while, and unfortunately it looks like I haven't missed much...  Assuming all goes well with the liquidation, is anyone else still concerned that all our claim information is lost?  Getting the money freed up is a huge step in the right direction.  However, how will they know who to give the money to once they have it?

One of the first things a liquidator does is take control of a business's records.  They'll also contact all listed creditors to inform them of the liquidation and to tell them how to submit a claim (in NZ, you usually have about a month in which to do that).  There's a standard claim form and it's very short.  
It's really important that you submit your claim in the time-frame required by the liquidator - it may not be considered if you don't - even though claims aren't typically formally processed until the liquidator is ready to make disbursements. The second liquidator's report is usually issued once all claims have been received and it's when you start getting a better idea of the liquidator's timeline for the liquidation process and what kind of returns might be possible, if any.  All sorts of things can prolong the liquidation process so the initial timeline given is really just a best case scenario guess.

It should be a little bit clearer after tomorrow's High Court hearing just when a liquidator is likely to be appointed. 

[Transisto]

Update : https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=121474.0

Bitcoinica LP was placed into liquidation today by order of the High Court of New Zealand.

The Court appointed Anthony John McCullagh and Stephen Mark Lawrence as liquidators of the limited partnership.  They will be responsible for handling Bitcoinica’s affairs through the liquidation process...
...

http://webaccess.sftc.org/Scripts/Magic94/mgrqispi94.dll?APPNAME=IJS&PRGNAME=ROA22&ARGUMENTS=-ACGC12522983

[MPOE-PR]

The plot thickens.

Both Anthony John MCCULLAGH and Stephen Mark LAWRENCE are the receivers for Tony Tay film Limited   . they are also directors of Auckland film studio in which Tony Tay film is  the majority share holder.

Yet as Directors  of the  Auckland film studio ( in which the Auckland rate payers have a significant stake )    they were unaware of  the value of the  company and   incorrectly represented the value in the  receivers first report

This morning   I received a phone call from mr Lawrence who advised me that   a new report would be published   and sent me a copy of the  corrected values.  he also   told me that I was  on a witch hunt.

http://www.transparency.net.nz/2011/04/07/receivers-show-5000000-error/

[repentance]

Interesting.  I wonder why the change in the choice of liquidator.