Is escrowing for yourself using a secret alt OK?

[dooglus]

What exactly did I lie about? Please quote the exact statement that I said that was a lie, and provide the proof that it was a lie.

"I've been banned for 3 days"

Please point to the post where I made that exact statement.

How?  You removed it from your profile.

I guess this is what Vod is referring to. You claimed that you had been forced to take a 3 day break from the forum, while at the same time you were posting from other alt accounts. So in what sense were you forced to take the break? That's the lie I think:

From google's cache:

"This is Google's cache of https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=977370.0;all. It is a snapshot of the page as it appeared on 3 Sep 2015 23:43:00 GMT"

[1715057930]

1715057930

[1715057930]

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[Quickseller]

What exactly did I lie about? Please quote the exact statement that I said that was a lie, and provide the proof that it was a lie.

"I've been banned for 3 days"

Please point to the post where I made that exact statement.

How?  You removed it from your profile.

I guess this is what Vod is referring to. You claimed that you had been forced to take a 3 day break from the forum, while at the same time you were posting from other alt accounts. So in what sense were you forced to take the break? That's the lie I think:

From google's cache:

"This is Google's cache of https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=977370.0;all. It is a snapshot of the page as it appeared on 3 Sep 2015 23:43:00 GMT"

Why don't you point out exactly where that says I am banned. Please and thank you.

[Vod]

Right here idiot.  The alt you made up.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=552167

[Quickseller]

Right here idiot.  The alt you made up.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=552167

Please show where exactly, I explicitly said that I was banned. If you are referring to the handle, then I would ask if you believe that every other handle is a description of that person. Do you truly believe that BadBear is actually a bear that is bad? 

[Vod]

Right here idiot.  The alt you made up.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=552167

Please show where exactly, I explicitly said that I was banned. If you are referring to the handle, then I would ask if you believe that every other handle is a description of that person. Do you truly believe that BadBear is actually a bear that is bad? 

It's the combination of you calling yourself banned in your username, and saying you were forced away from the forum for 3 days.

We get it.  You are type of person that will type "I will scam you" then completely deny that you typed "I'll scam you".   You slowly and methodically make little white lies that no one can hold you to.  I'm ashamed I ever called you a scam buster.

Scammers like you are the very reason lawyers exist.   

[Quickseller]

Right here idiot.  The alt you made up.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=552167

Please show where exactly, I explicitly said that I was banned. If you are referring to the handle, then I would ask if you believe that every other handle is a description of that person. Do you truly believe that BadBear is actually a bear that is bad? 

It's the combination of you calling yourself banned in your username, and saying you were forced away from the forum for 3 days.

We get it.  You are type of person that will type "I will scam you" then completely deny that you typed "I'll scam you".   You slowly and methodically make little white lies that no one can hold you to.  I'm ashamed I ever called you a scam buster.

Scammers like you are the very reason lawyers exist.   

If you are going to call me a scammer then please confirm who exactly I scammed and for how much. I will most then gladly repay anyone who can document that I stole from, however I am confident this is not the case.

If this is not the case then kindly retract your statement as your are liable for libel as you are directly damaging my reputation because you are making a statement that you are aware is untrue, and you are aware that such statement is detrimental to my reputation.

[Vod]

If you are going to call me a scammer then please confirm who exactly I scammed and for how much. I will most then gladly repay anyone who can document that I stole from, however I am confident this is not the case.

If this is not the case then kindly retract your statement as your are liable for libel as you are directly damaging my reputation because you are making a statement that you are aware is untrue, and you are aware that such statement is detrimental to my reputation.

I have no idea how many people you scammed, for you didn't keep public records of who you escrowed for. 

You are a scammer and you are a liar.   What damage could I possibly do to your reputation?

[Quickseller]

Let me ask another way.....Who is claiming they have had money stolen from me and how much do they think they had stolen? Or who exactly was I attempting to steal from? Or where was I generally attempting to steal from someone in general....

[TheButterZone]

Right here idiot.  The alt you made up.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=552167

Please show where exactly, I explicitly said that I was banned. If you are referring to the handle, then I would ask if you believe that every other handle is a description of that person. Do you truly believe that BadBear is actually a bear that is bad?  

No more than we believe anything from you that may be a pathological lie, obfuscation, or equivocation, at this point.

P.S. tl;dr... did any staff tie https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=552167 to Quickseller and confirm that Quickseller wasn't actively banned at the time https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=552167 was created?

[Quickseller]

If you are going to call me a scammer then please confirm who exactly I scammed and for how much. I will most then gladly repay anyone who can document that I stole from, however I am confident this is not the case.

If this is not the case then kindly retract your statement as your are liable for libel as you are directly damaging my reputation because you are making a statement that you are aware is untrue, and you are aware that such statement is detrimental to my reputation.

I have no idea how many people you scammed, for you didn't keep public records of who you escrowed for. 

You are a scammer and you are a liar.   What damage could I possibly do to your reputation?

So you are calling me a scammer, yet you have zero evidence that I actually scammed someone? That is kind of reckless don't you think? Maybe in the future you should ensure that you have actual evidence that someone has actually stolen money from someone before claiming something that is detrimental to their reputation.

[Vod]

If you are going to call me a scammer then please confirm who exactly I scammed and for how much. I will most then gladly repay anyone who can document that I stole from, however I am confident this is not the case.

If this is not the case then kindly retract your statement as your are liable for libel as you are directly damaging my reputation because you are making a statement that you are aware is untrue, and you are aware that such statement is detrimental to my reputation.

I have no idea how many people you scammed, for you didn't keep public records of who you escrowed for. 

You are a scammer and you are a liar.   What damage could I possibly do to your reputation?

So you are calling me a scammer, yet you have zero evidence that I actually scammed someone? That is kind of reckless don't you think? Maybe in the future you should ensure that you have actual evidence that someone has actually stolen money from someone before claiming something that is detrimental to their reputation.

lol... are we to go back and forward all night?  You admitted to pulling the escrow scam many times.  When a person pleads guilty in court, there is no need for further evidence.

[Decoded]

The exact words Quickseller used were

"Forced 3 day break from the forum Be back Saturday".

Since he didn't have a forced 3 day ban, that makes Quickseller a proven liar.

"https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1171059.msg12331922#msg12331922"

Is the word "ban" anywhere in that statement? Would there be any other reasons why one might force themselves from taking a break from the forum?

Assuming that you could somehow conclude that the above statement is a lie, you still have the issue of proving that I stole money from someone which is what is causing you to be liable for libel.

Why are you still trying to talk your way out? You didn't read my post? -_-

I have no interest in reading posts that are overwhelmingly obvious being made to build up your account and later sell. If you wanted to post from your main account (not that I don't know what it is), and not one that was purchased sometime before mid May of this year, then I would consider reading your posts

Let's make a bet. If I bought this account, you give me 1 BTC. If I didn't buy this account, I give you 10 BTC.

Fair?

Sure, prove that you have 10 BTC

I'll sell all my possessions to buy and send you 10 BTC if what you claim is true.

Sorry. I am not going to make that bet if I cannot be assured that I will receive payment immediately after the conditions of my winning such bet would be met (and I would obviously need you to put such funds in escrow ahead of time).

If you want to make the bet, I can gather 10 BTC . Let me know if you want to do the bet.

you should first put the 10btc to a trusted escrow (Quickseller) since you are dealing with QS ROFLMAO

[botany]

P.S. tl;dr... did any staff tie https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=552167 to Quickseller and confirm that Quickseller wasn't actively banned at the time https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=552167 was created?

QS Banned posted a PGP signed message.
Badbear confirmed that QS wasn't banned.

I removed Quickseller because he was acting to deceive people, and I can't, and won't, be a part of that (he wasn't banned) if I know about it.

[TheButterZone]

I wonder if https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-dealing is the term most apropos.

lol... are we to go back and forward all night?  You admitted to pulling the escrow scam many times.  When a person pleads guilty in court, there is no need for further evidence.

B-but...

in the United States federal system, before entering judgment on a guilty plea, the court must determine that there is a factual basis for the plea

So another escape route is set.

LOL

you should first put the 10btc to a trusted escrow (Quickseller) since you are dealing with QS ROFLMAO

BAHAHAHAHA

[Quickseller]

If you are going to call me a scammer then please confirm who exactly I scammed and for how much. I will most then gladly repay anyone who can document that I stole from, however I am confident this is not the case.

If this is not the case then kindly retract your statement as your are liable for libel as you are directly damaging my reputation because you are making a statement that you are aware is untrue, and you are aware that such statement is detrimental to my reputation.

I have no idea how many people you scammed, for you didn't keep public records of who you escrowed for. 

You are a scammer and you are a liar.   What damage could I possibly do to your reputation?

So you are calling me a scammer, yet you have zero evidence that I actually scammed someone? That is kind of reckless don't you think? Maybe in the future you should ensure that you have actual evidence that someone has actually stolen money from someone before claiming something that is detrimental to their reputation.

lol... are we to go back and forward all night?  You admitted to pulling the escrow scam many times.  When a person pleads guilty in court, there is no need for further evidence.

What are you talking about? Wha escrow scam did I "pull"? An "escrow scam" is where one party receives money into "escrow" (while being the escrow) and then fails to deliver the agreed upon goods. Is there someone that is claiming this happened to?

[Vod]

What are you talking about? Wha escrow scam did I "pull"? An "escrow scam" is where one party receives money into "escrow" (while being the escrow) and then fails to deliver the agreed upon goods. Is there someone that is claiming this happened to?

Been discussed a couple times already in this thread and your scam accusation thread.  You scammed multiple times.  Proof has been presented.

In case anyone is wondering, the term for a person like QS who ignores social norms and believes he is always in the right is "psychopath".

[Quickseller]

What are you talking about? Wha escrow scam did I "pull"? An "escrow scam" is where one party receives money into "escrow" (while being the escrow) and then fails to deliver the agreed upon goods. Is there someone that is claiming this happened to?

Been discussed a couple times already in this thread.  You scammed multiple times.  Proof has been presented.

If proof has been presented then you should have no issue pointing to the person who I have stolen from, nor advising the amount I have stolen.

If you are unable to present this evidence then kindly provide an address where you can accept service so I have you served with a libel suit if I choose to do so.

[Vod]

If proof has been presented then you should have no issue pointing to the person who I have stolen from, nor advising the amount I have stolen. o.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1171059.msg12404224#msg12404224

There you go.  You scammed, you got caught, you returned the money.  And we know there are many more out there that aren't aware you scammed them and they are entitled to a refund.

Do you think if you robbed a bank, got caught and returned the money, they would let you go?

(Proof has been presented yet again to QS.  But I'll take bets that QS will ask for proof yet again...)   

[markj113]

WTF?

I'm going to need a PGP-clearsigned YES or NO answer, from Quickseller, to the following question:
Did you, Quickseller, engage in 1 or more trades where any party other than you was led to believe that there were 3 parties with 3 different DNA profiles involved in the trade (1-buyer, 2-seller 3-escrow agent), but in reality there were only 2?

YES or NO?

Did I lead anyone to believe that a trade I was acting as escrow[1] for had 3 distinct DNA profiles[2]? No. Any trade that I acted as a middle man (or as some like to say "escrow"), no explicit, nor implicit statement was made by myself saying that I was not a party to the trade. Any agreement that I had sent out said something along the lines that party (b) should send a certain amount of money to a particular BTC address, once party (s) saw that such an amount was sent to that address they should send a certain amount of money and/or goods and/or services to party (b), and once party (b) is in receipt of the above mentioned currency and/or goods and/or services they should authorize the release of the funds being held to party (s) who would then receive a certain amount of BTC to the address of their choice; and in the event of a dispute I would attempt to mediate such dispute, and if it would not be abundantly clear as to what a fair resolution would be then a scam accusation would be opened to consult the overall community. Nowhere was the words "3rd" (except for potentially the date or similar), or "neutral" were used.

[1]According to the link you provided one definition of "escrow" is:

[MASS NOUN] The state of being kept in custody or trust until a specified condition has been fulfilled:

Funds were kept in my custody of a specific BTC address until at least when specified conditions were fufilled

[2]I have no idea what the DNA profiles were of any of the people I traded with, nor any of the people that I was acting as a middle man/escrow for. As I never requested, nor received their DNA profiles, and although unlikely, it is possible that a trade I engaged in only involved one DNA profile (I have no reason to believe this to be the case however).

Quickseller you are full of shit and the constant worming around and twisting of words is doing you no favors at all, I think you have lost more respect on the forum by doing this than just holding your hands up and admitting it was an error in judgment as you never intended to scam anyone and just did it to speed things up.


When someone doing a trade with you asked to use escrow were you -

a) Open and honest that you were Escrowing your own trade.

or

b) Deceptive, leading the person to believe that a 3rd party was acting as escrow and charged them extra for the privilege.

[tspacepilot]

In case anyone is wondering, the term for a person like QS who ignores social norms and believes he is always in the right is "psychopath".

It's been my unfortunate reality that I've had to experience this very closely over the past 5 or 6 months.  I think you can see this again and again if you look at how his reasoning works and his behavior.  Even now, he seems to think that the only way I could have discovered his alt is through some secret tip from an unknown newbie account---I have no idea how he's convinced himself of this.  I find it very strange how little he seems to be able to put himself into anyone else's shoes.  Why didn't he realize how obvious it would be to bring in a sockpuppet account into a thread and repeat the exact same things as the Quickseler account?  You'll note that he continues to suggest that nothing was wrong with his escrow scam because in the "<1% of the cases" where there was a dispute he just "handled it fairly".  He seems unable to comprehend that it's impossible to claim that you're being fair if you're both the judge and the appelant.  

I think he's also making it apparant just how unstable he is.  He goes from chest-thumping (I have other accounts on DT, I will have you removed if you cross me; I'll sue you for libel), to distractions (but tsp is not cool; Vod is an horse's arse), to these incomprehensible justifications (I did nothing wrong, I will never do anything wrong), and then repeats.  These are the same strategies he used in his "argumentation" against me why I asked him to justify his abusive behavior.  The only difference is that he seems to have finally stopped pulling in the sockpuppets (ostensibly).  Obviously these kinds of behaviors are disturbing, and I certainly think that the community here is better off for having seen them first hand, but I actually think there's a bigger lesson to be learned here.

QS made a meal-and-a-half out of quick neg-reps, snap-decisions, and never looking back.  He did this to my account.  I definitely saw him do this to at least a couple of other people.  In each case, because QS was respected, people either wouldn't our couldn't cross him.  He'd follow up with posts about how he's doing a great job and that's why he's right, and in the echo-chamber of an internet forum, it because a kind of self-fulfiling prophecy.  QS' reputation continued to be built on the backs of the accounts he neg-repped.  I know that after I had seen him extrapolate wildly about my own case into a kind of stupor about what he "knows without taking any word from TF", I started to look twice at those untrusted negative feedbacks in his trust page: people that pointed out that he was abusing them, people who called him out for over-obsessing about blockchain "evidence" which could be explained otherwise, people who said he didn't know anything about the situation but had somehow appointed himself judge and left neg reptuation on one or the other party.  Quickseller's inability to put himself into other people's shoes makes him a particularly poor judge, but the real question to me is why so many people blithely followed his self-aggrandizing manouvers.  Why was it the case that you had to actually get falsely neg-repped by Quickseller in order to take a close look at his way of being?

1) I think the lesson to be learned here is twofold: when a reasonable explanation exists for some behavior, people should be given the benefit of the doubt.  I don't think this guilty-until-proven-innocent M.O of QS and alts is helpful.  I think it creates a stifling culture of fear.

2) I think people need to take a close look at mob-mentalities and to check into facts for themselves.  So many people around here traffic in reputations, but reputations are merely histories.  Each new case has facts, and facts can be examined and each person needs to do this for themself, not to rely on the pronouncments from the mighty Quickseller or the Almighty dooglus, or the Great Vod, or the God Theymos or any other such figure.

I also have argued in the past for more decentralization of the trust network, I think it would do a great deal to alleviate the kinds of reputation trafficking abuses that we see Quickseller epitomizing.  I think talking about that too much here would afield of the main topic.  But I hope that people will think a bit about what the Quickseller lesson teaches us about what kind of culture we should seek to establish on this forum.  And what kind of culture leads to toxic schemes and nastiness.

Just my 2 (or 3) satoshis.

--TSP