Are you going to pay taxes?

[Jaime Frontero]

Please humour me and answer these questions with a yes or no?

Is consistency preferable to inconsistency?

consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative.

~OW

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[sortedmush]

consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative.

I thought quote dropping was the last refuge of the unimaginative.

[Jaime Frontero]

consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative.

I thought quote dropping was the last refuge of the unimaginative.

no.

why would you make an effort to surpass perfection?

i have no problem in accepting that there are, and have been, others who have expressed a thought more perfectly than i can.  i'm not diminished by that at all.

[TECSHARE]

But this tax business?  How do you propose we fund the public services that keep us ... Well, alive, and for the most part roving armed pillage gang free?

100% of your income tax goes to The Federal Reserve Bank, a PRIVATE banking institution. See The Grace Commission Report for more info. The services you are talking about are paid for by property and sales taxes.

[sortedmush]

consistency is the last refuge of the unimaginative.

I thought quote dropping was the last refuge of the unimaginative.

no.

why would you make an effort to surpass perfection?

i have no problem in accepting that there are, and have been, others who have expressed a thought more perfectly than i can.  i'm not diminished by that at all.

So this quote you quote is perfect? Do you have a link to a repository of perfect quotes that I can model my life on please?

[SgtSpike]

"Social Security is an entitlement program" is a huge fallacy that is promoted by the Right wing that many fall for. If you never work and never pay into it, you don't get anything back. They also stop taxing people at $106,800...meaning that somebody who makes $10 million pays the exact same dollar amount to Social Security as someone who makes $106k. If they eliminated that tax break for the wealthy, Social Security would be solvent forever. Thanks, Reagan!

Its funny how the only people to complain about any type of socialized medicine, taxes, etc are from America. You really don't hear any complaints from any Britons about ther NHS, or from the Canadians about their health system, or any other civilized country's citizens for that matter. This is an international forum, and yet it seems the only people pissed off about Govt programs are the far right Americans. Go figure.

There are many elderly in the US who have no families and no one to look after them. All they have is Social Security, and that really isn't enough by itself. Still it is far better than starving and dying alone in the dark, which seems to be the outcome that many on the Right prefer.

A government too weak to take anything from you, is also too weak to prevent anyone else from doing the same. If the US had a weak central government we would all be speaking German right now, or Japanese.

In fact, I advise anyone who wants to see how a weak government works in a real life application to plan their next vacation: boating off the coast of Somalia. If you are lucky you will get the added bonus of witnessing a stong government in action when the SEAL team rescues you.

I hear plenty of complaints from Britons and Canadians about their healthcare system.  Stories of it taking people months to see a doctor over a non-life-threatening ailment.  Not to mention, higher taxes on everything.  Ugh, no thank you.  I'll take privatized healthcare over that any day.

Haven't you heard people in Europe who frequent these forums or elsewhere complain on and on about how much their new video cards cost compared to the US?  A good portion of that price increase is due to higher import taxes, because that nationalized healthcare (and other government programs) have to be paid for somehow.

Sure, the bright spot is, you don't have to be responsible for yourself.  Go jump off a cliff without health insurance, and the government is there to mend your broken bones, for free, on the taxpayer dollar.  The downside to that is, it helps tell people that they don't NEED to be responsible for themselves, because there is no consequence for not taking care of themselves.  Heck, you even see the same thing in the US:  How many people are overweight because they can get disability pay if they can't move their fat tubs of lard around by themselves?  If there wasn't such thing as disability due to obesity, so that obese people were actually forced to go get a job like the rest of us, I bet we'd see a lot less of it.  As it is, we are paying people to NOT take care of themselves.  It is absolutely absurd.

There ain't no so thing as a free lunch.  Or free healthcare.  Everyone pays for it somehow, it's just a matter of whether each individual takes care of themselves, or whether society as a whole is forced to contribute to a more inefficient system.

[Longmarch]

"It was said once, and cleverly, by a notable person.  Therefore it is true."

-Soccertease

[Distribution]

"Social Security is an entitlement program" is a huge fallacy that is promoted by the Right wing that many fall for. If you never work and never pay into it, you don't get anything back. They also stop taxing people at $106,800...meaning that somebody who makes $10 million pays the exact same dollar amount to Social Security as someone who makes $106k. If they eliminated that tax break for the wealthy, Social Security would be solvent forever. Thanks, Reagan!

Its funny how the only people to complain about any type of socialized medicine, taxes, etc are from America. You really don't hear any complaints from any Britons about ther NHS, or from the Canadians about their health system, or any other civilized country's citizens for that matter. This is an international forum, and yet it seems the only people pissed off about Govt programs are the far right Americans. Go figure.

There are many elderly in the US who have no families and no one to look after them. All they have is Social Security, and that really isn't enough by itself. Still it is far better than starving and dying alone in the dark, which seems to be the outcome that many on the Right prefer.

A government too weak to take anything from you, is also too weak to prevent anyone else from doing the same. If the US had a weak central government we would all be speaking German right now, or Japanese.

In fact, I advise anyone who wants to see how a weak government works in a real life application to plan their next vacation: boating off the coast of Somalia. If you are lucky you will get the added bonus of witnessing a stong government in action when the SEAL team rescues you.

Demagoguery is a tactic from the left that many people fall for. Anyone knows that complaints come from every country in terms of how their government is run. People do complain in Canada, and in the UK, and everywhere else. People hate taxes. The Jews protested the taxes imposed on them by the Romans. Taxes are hated historically by members of every group. To think that one single group (especially a large nation) unanimously agrees on anything is, well, stupid.

"You don't care about the old, the children, the sick, the poor. You are un-American and unpatriotic, you should love your overseers." Give me a break. Instead of conceding that a large intrusive central government could have actually created hate towards us requiring us to enter any war, you say that same loving government was here for our protection. They need to tell us what's best for us. After all, a bunch of greedy sociopaths (from here on out called politicians) are somehow angelic when elected and work solely for the benefit of society. I challenge you to name one group of people in history (especially when they're much better armed) that has EVER treated the weaker fairly in perpetuity.

[Lynzoi]

"Social Security is an entitlement program" is a huge fallacy that is promoted by the Right wing that many fall for. If you never work and never pay into it, you don't get anything back. They also stop taxing people at $106,800...meaning that somebody who makes $10 million pays the exact same dollar amount to Social Security as someone who makes $106k. If they eliminated that tax break for the wealthy, Social Security would be solvent forever. Thanks, Reagan!

Its funny how the only people to complain about any type of socialized medicine, taxes, etc are from America. You really don't hear any complaints from any Britons about ther NHS, or from the Canadians about their health system, or any other civilized country's citizens for that matter. This is an international forum, and yet it seems the only people pissed off about Govt programs are the far right Americans. Go figure.

There are many elderly in the US who have no families and no one to look after them. All they have is Social Security, and that really isn't enough by itself. Still it is far better than starving and dying alone in the dark, which seems to be the outcome that many on the Right prefer.

A government too weak to take anything from you, is also too weak to prevent anyone else from doing the same. If the US had a weak central government we would all be speaking German right now, or Japanese.

In fact, I advise anyone who wants to see how a weak government works in a real life application to plan their next vacation: boating off the coast of Somalia. If you are lucky you will get the added bonus of witnessing a stong government in action when the SEAL team rescues you.

I hear plenty of complaints from Britons and Canadians about their healthcare system.  Stories of it taking people months to see a doctor over a non-life-threatening ailment.  Not to mention, higher taxes on everything.  Ugh, no thank you.  I'll take privatized healthcare over that any day.

Haven't you heard people in Europe who frequent these forums or elsewhere complain on and on about how much their new video cards cost compared to the US?  A good portion of that price increase is due to higher import taxes, because that nationalized healthcare (and other government programs) have to be paid for somehow.

Sure, the bright spot is, you don't have to be responsible for yourself.  Go jump off a cliff without health insurance, and the government is there to mend your broken bones, for free, on the taxpayer dollar.  The downside to that is, it helps tell people that they don't NEED to be responsible for themselves, because there is no consequence for not taking care of themselves.  Heck, you even see the same thing in the US:  How many people are overweight because they can get disability pay if they can't move their fat tubs of lard around by themselves?  If there wasn't such thing as disability due to obesity, so that obese people were actually forced to go get a job like the rest of us, I bet we'd see a lot less of it.  As it is, we are paying people to NOT take care of themselves.  It is absolutely absurd.

There ain't no so thing as a free lunch.  Or free healthcare.  Everyone pays for it somehow, it's just a matter of whether each individual takes care of themselves, or whether society as a whole is forced to contribute to a more inefficient system.

It's true that socialized health care slows things down. But to tie this to into the vague concept of responsibility, and then to reduce a complicated issue like obesity down to some sort of entitlement issue... that's disgusting.

If you think refusing to give fat people any disability accommodations will make them skinnier, you need a reality check. Look at which states in the US are the fattest. It's the uneducated, poor, Republican states.

Comparing the USA to Europe isn't quite as simple as people make it out to be. We live under different circumstances. A European social program would not work the same way in the United States, and vice versa. For one thing, the rich in Europe strike me as lazy. The rich in America are often philanthropists and hard workers. If we had a bunch of lazy European aristocracy types in my country, I would want to tax the hell out of them.

[Distribution]

In reference to my previous post, there are groups out there who treat the weaker fairly. I shouldn't have said that. But unfortunately, none of them have ever been governments. As I thought about it, the Rotary, Elks, Masons, as well as many many other charitable organizations have done very good things for those who are weaker than them.

[Xenland]

Just jumped in the thread thought i get my 2cents in,

I've thought about it and yes I think I will pay my taxes just like I've been reporting my taxes with all my other jobs. Sure its easy not to pay taxes but worth it... ehhh?

[smellyBobby]

Taxation should be incorporated into bitcoin, it could be used to pay for bounties, promoting bitcoin, etc. To mitigate the social evils that come from centralized control, use a similar system of de-centralized control that bitcoin currently uses to maintain the collective ledger.

Transparency, accountability and education are what distinguish societies that have high taxation and good social outcomes in contrast with the opposite. Assange and Wikileaks is a good example of this. Wikileaks is not about low taxes, no government its about informing the public about how their authorities are behaving, Assange a gifted individual has devoted himself to this cause. This fills the perceived transparency void caused by "regulated media" serving vested corporate interests. But this is not enough.

Despite the veil being lifted by Wikileaks, there is relatively no action being taken; no accountability in place. This seems to be caused by culture and lack of comprehension. For example, the amount of deaths in Iraq since the invasion, where there was no weapons of mass destruction and Sep 11 resulted in approx. 3000 deaths, is a minimum of 80,000 since the war began http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War . However despite this there is essentially no response; LIKE WTF, you could argue that it's equivalent to 26 Sep 11 Attacks. Furthur the death is Osama Bin Laden is celebrated........ WTF the guy is only responsible for maybe upto 10,000 people? What about the "Coalition Invasion", or obesity, heart disease, problems killing alot more people than Osama ever did. This shows clearly people are stupid and why education is essential, otherwise transparency is useless (for anyone interested particularly Australians Andrew Wilke; current federal politician, blew the whistle back in 2003 before the invasion began. At the time he was working for the Australian Intelligence Agency and denied the existence of WMDs http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Wilkie Andrew Wilke is the type of person kids should idolize.)

To me accountability, stems from a belief that if people raise their voice than something will change. I'm unsure if accountability is a product of transparency and education and/or some other set of factors.

To think that if we have little government and no taxes will somehow result in a better society is naive, its the equivalent of returning to the wild-west.

Government and taxes are a tool. To use any tool correctly you must understand how it works, don't blame the tool for your lack of education.

[Lupus_Yonderboy]

Demagoguery is a tactic from the left that many people fall for.

Because the Right never engages in demagoguery...**cough**deathpanels**cough**

And you are correct in that it does not matter how good a system is, someone will indeed bitch about it. You don't need unanimous consent for things though, just a majority. Also, if our private healthcare system is so superior, then why (according to the World Factbook) does the U.S. rank 50th in life expectancy? Behind such notable countries as Jordan and Bosnia. It boggles the mind that a system designed in the 18th century to protect against shipping losses should be the basis for one's healthcare. I also fail to see how people dying because they lack the money to pay in a private system is superior. Being poor shouldn't be a terminal condition.

I do not believe that any government ever has been or ever will be an all-knowing, wise, and benevolent organization. On the other hand I am not so blinded by ideology that I think that "all gubmint is bad, mmmmkay?"

The U.S. has a pretty lax emigration policy. If you hate the U.S. Government so much you are free to leave and go live somewhere else. Don't want to leave? Then try to convince a majority of your countrymen that your way is right and have them vote appropriately. Good luck with that. There is of course a 3rd option, and I honestly hope someone tries it, so that it can be put down with all that it deserves. Despite wet dreams to the contrary, the American people will not rise up in support, and it will fail badly. The average American cares about who is winning on Idol this season, not grandiose schemes of Libertopia.

You will render unto Caeser, or the IRS will take all that you own and imprison you. Cry all you want about it, it doesn't change anything. Or don't pay them. As I said above, I look forward to buying a lot of mining equipment at tax auctions next year.

[LastBattle]

Demagoguery is a tactic from the left that many people fall for.

Because the Right never engages in demagoguery...**cough**deathpanels**cough**

And you are correct in that it does not matter how good a system is, someone will indeed bitch about it. You don't need unanimous consent for things though, just a majority. Also, if our private healthcare system is so superior, then why (according to the World Factbook) does the U.S. rank 50th in life expectancy? Behind such notable countries as Jordan and Bosnia. It boggles the mind that a system designed in the 18th century to protect against shipping losses should be the basis for one's healthcare. I also fail to see how people dying because they lack the money to pay in a private system is superior. Being poor shouldn't be a terminal condition.

I do not believe that any government ever has been or ever will be an all-knowing, wise, and benevolent organization. On the other hand I am not so blinded by ideology that I think that "all gubmint is bad, mmmmkay?"

The U.S. has a pretty lax emigration policy. If you hate the U.S. Government so much you are free to leave and go live somewhere else. Don't want to leave? Then try to convince a majority of your countrymen that your way is right and have them vote appropriately. Good luck with that. There is of course a 3rd option, and I honestly hope someone tries it, so that it can be put down with all that it deserves. Despite wet dreams to the contrary, the American people will not rise up in support, and it will fail badly. The average American cares about who is winning on Idol this season, not grandiose schemes of Libertopia.

You will render unto Caeser, or the IRS will take all that you own and imprison you. Cry all you want about it, it doesn't change anything. Or don't pay them. As I said above, I look forward to buying a lot of mining equipment at tax auctions next year.

First of all, I am Canadian, so there goes that point. There is a good reason most Canadians and Europeans talk loudly about how great their system is, and I will get to that.

Second, the American healthcare system is NOT a free market, it is distinctly corporatist in nature. Even Obamacare isn't actually socialism, it is a stronger taste of corporatism. The FDA, AMA, Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, taxes, regulations, etc etc make it a VERY unfree market. A cartel of government sponsored corporations are allowed to make drugs and about 20,000 new doctors are accepted by the AMA every year for the past 60+ years (which is to say, the US population rises but the number of new doctors allowed in per year NEVER does). Despite this, it still manages to have SOME advantages over the Canadian system. First, in Canada, if you don't have a serious condition, you will have to wait first to be inspected by a nurse, then to be inspected by a doctor. I recall a friend who had appendicitis and went to the hospital to see what it was. He spent several hours waiting for a nurse to come see how "bad" his condition was, then was placed on a list forcing him to wait hours more. Eventually, he was allowed a brief inspection by the doctor, where the doctor spent maybe two minutes asking questions and then declared it was appendicitis and left. That was for what amounted to a checkup that could have been done in the US in a couple minutes. Don't get me started on actual surgery. Sometimes even people with serious problems are left to die on lists lasting months because Canada has a bit of a shortage of certain kinds of medical equipment (for example, CT scanners, of which the US state of Oregon has something like 5 times over what all of Canada has).

See, when people are shown a choice between a system like Canada, which is okay if you happen to have an issue which can be fixed easily and with no cost, and the US, where various government incentives have made prices insane outside of a handful of country doctors who refuse insurance payments, most people assume that those are the only two options (semi-private/public systems like the NHS can replace Canada if you prefer). If the US healthcare system was truly free (and it more or less was pre-1964) it would be much cheaper and much more efficient. Once those incentives for insurance and regulations began to pile up, prices began to go through the roof. Without them, it would be much more obvious how bad socialized medicine really is (just like how comparing Maoist China and Stalinist Russia might make you consider one to be better, but when you enter a half decent Western country in the mix they are clearly both terrible).

-----

"IF YOU DON'T LIKE IT YOU CAN GIT OUTTA HERE"

Except that would imply that I don't own my own property, which the government has no claim to. I don't give a damn about what the "majority" thinks, either. It isn't THEIR land. For a time, fleeing places like China, the USSR, etc wasn't especially difficult if you were willing to risk losing everything built up in your home country, but most people didn't. Actually, that is the case in many countries with brutal regimes in charge. "IF YOU DON'T WANT TO GET MURDERED AND HAVE YOUR PROPERTY LOOTED YOU CAN GIT OUTTA HERE".

----

Who cares if the average American doesn't "rise up"? That is unnecessary. The average American is unlikely to do anything unless the bread and circuses are interrupted, and with the US financial system that is a given. The state will, given time and a bit of a push, collapse in on itself. When that happens, you only need a small group of dedicated people to succeed. There were very few Bolsheviks compared to their opponents in Russia, but they were by far the most dedicated to their cause and it paid off in the end. Look at the Free State Project.

----

The IRS is going to be hard pressed to find an excuse or a way to tax bitcoins besides when they are converted back to US dollars. If I am a clever American, I could take my US dollars, convert them to bitcoins, and leave them around to collect dust. What's the IRS gonna do, kick the door down and try to hack my computer? Even better, I could begin to phase out use of the US dollar. In the past that would be very hard, but with Silk Road expanding its market into furniture, food, etc and other businesses beginning to accept it that might become easier. Again, what can the IRS do with no banks, no wires, no credit cards, etc? If a person decides to stop playing with worthless monopoly money and begins to stop using it, or even starts getting paid with it, then the IRS will be hard pressed to crack down short of setting up proper police state surveillance, lots of new laws, and the suspension of the fourth Amendment (and if that happens, the US will already have ceased to have the ability to fund itself with inflation).

[Distribution]

Demagoguery is a tactic from the left that many people fall for.

Because the Right never engages in demagoguery...**cough**deathpanels**cough**

And you are correct in that it does not matter how good a system is, someone will indeed bitch about it. You don't need unanimous consent for things though, just a majority. Also, if our private healthcare system is so superior, then why (according to the World Factbook) does the U.S. rank 50th in life expectancy? Behind such notable countries as Jordan and Bosnia. It boggles the mind that a system designed in the 18th century to protect against shipping losses should be the basis for one's healthcare. I also fail to see how people dying because they lack the money to pay in a private system is superior. Being poor shouldn't be a terminal condition.

I do not believe that any government ever has been or ever will be an all-knowing, wise, and benevolent organization. On the other hand I am not so blinded by ideology that I think that "all gubmint is bad, mmmmkay?"

The U.S. has a pretty lax emigration policy. If you hate the U.S. Government so much you are free to leave and go live somewhere else. Don't want to leave? Then try to convince a majority of your countrymen that your way is right and have them vote appropriately. Good luck with that. There is of course a 3rd option, and I honestly hope someone tries it, so that it can be put down with all that it deserves. Despite wet dreams to the contrary, the American people will not rise up in support, and it will fail badly. The average American cares about who is winning on Idol this season, not grandiose schemes of Libertopia.

You will render unto Caeser, or the IRS will take all that you own and imprison you. Cry all you want about it, it doesn't change anything. Or don't pay them. As I said above, I look forward to buying a lot of mining equipment at tax auctions next year.

You're right, both sides engage in demagoguery. But of course we'll agree that it still doesn't make it right. You're also right that all you need is a majority to violate everyone else's rights (as the saying goes, "If you steal from Paul to pay Peter, you can always count on Peter's vote") Nor is the "love it or leave it" attitude productive. I could leave. But I like our system, I don't like how it's been abused. I like that my right to free speech and warranted searches are guaranteed. But I'm not going to leave because they passed the PATRIOT Act which negates those things. I'd rather change it. Just as you're trying (assuming you're American) to change the healthcare system instead of up and leaving for France (which actually has a better AND more free market system).

In addition, I never said our healthcare system was good. I never mentioned our system. Our system has government imposed prices, our system makes medical charity very difficult, our system uses insurance for EVERYTHING (and you wonder why prices are high). It's not a perfect system, it's far from it. But government isn't going to fix it. Show me a program that the federal government operates that is superior to a free market program. The Postal Service? VA hospitals? Amtrak? Any sort of charity? I'm not just ranting against authority. I'm addressing the nature of government. Because of how it gets resources (takes them), operates (efficiently enough to get more resources), and the accountability that is required (TSA?), they generally produce politically expedient answers that ultimately fit a formula for waste.

[Goldenmaw]

Dear Sonic the Hedgehog guy,

I am stepping out of out conversation because it is very, very dumb.

[Distribution]

Dear Sonic the Hedgehog guy,

I am stepping out of out conversation because it is very, very dumb.

Lupus is having some pretty active conversations, maybe you should jump in those. I mean, now that your conversation schedule has cleared and everything.

[Goldenmaw]

Nah, I'm too pooped to ride a new wave tonight.  I intend to use the rest of my schedule for vacuous staring and alcohol consumption.

[Distribution]

Nah, I'm too pooped to ride a new wave tonight.  I intend to use the rest of my schedule for vacuous staring and alcohol consumption.

Good choice.

[Jaime Frontero]

Nah, I'm too pooped to ride a new wave tonight.  I intend to use the rest of my schedule for vacuous staring and alcohol consumption.

Good choice.

agreed.

vacuous staring at the bitcoin monitor, of course...