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Author Topic: Are you going to pay taxes?  (Read 13354 times)
Goldenmaw
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June 06, 2011, 11:28:10 PM
 #21

Let's get wasted and watch Mad Max 2, Atlas.  You sound like a hell of a guy.
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Timo Y
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June 06, 2011, 11:28:18 PM
 #22

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Oh man... now I want to move to Switzerland. They've got good skiing too.

And quite an active Bitcoin community. The first ever IRL Bitcoin meetup was in Zurich, although I missed it unfortunately.  

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This makes me wonder what the laws are for people with dual citizenship.

Do you have to pay taxes to BOTH countries?

I'm not Swiss, but I don't  have to pay taxes in my passport country if I don't live there.  

If I earn in income in Switzerland while living in my passport country, then yes, I pay the difference.

Unfortunately, the US is unique in its US=World attitude of taxing its citizens wherever they live.

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Probably not, because then the only way to escape US taxes would be to renounce your citizenship. That sounds difficult.

Actually, not even renouncing your citizenship may save you from certain taxes.

You should talk to the forum member Mike Gogulski, who went the whole way and became stateless.  

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enmaku
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June 06, 2011, 11:28:40 PM
 #23

Do "capital gains" add to your total income for the purpose of determining your tax bracket or are they taxed at the rate of your income-only tax bracket?
I do not believe capital gains adds to your total income for determining your tax rate.
So what about students and the like, who perhaps have no income or have income so low as to qualify as exempt? I would assume they'd pay at the lowest bracket, right?

lizthegrey
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June 06, 2011, 11:28:55 PM
 #24

I like my social services, thank you very much. Even though I disagree with the way my country spends 1/3 of its budget on flexing its military muscle, I have friends who work in public health, etc. who would lose their extremely-important-for-society jobs were enough people to stop paying taxes. And I do mean that non-sarcastically - preventing epidemics is damn important stuff.

I plan to deal with it as self-employment income rather than capital gains since I've been mining.
Lynzoi
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June 06, 2011, 11:29:24 PM
 #25

Are you from IRS?
If I'm from the IRS, the IRS must have adopted some really stupid methods...

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mewantsbitcoins
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June 06, 2011, 11:29:57 PM
 #26

Are you from IRS?
If I'm from the IRS, the IRS must have adopted some really stupid methods...

Wouldn't be the first time
yoyoceramic
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June 06, 2011, 11:31:16 PM
 #27

Do "capital gains" add to your total income for the purpose of determining your tax bracket or are they taxed at the rate of your income-only tax bracket?
I do not believe capital gains adds to your total income for determining your tax rate.
So what about students and the like, who perhaps have no income or have income so low as to qualify as exempt? I would assume they'd pay at the lowest bracket, right?

This is correct.  In 2011 for a non-married individual, if you make less than $34,500 you would pay 0% capital gains taxes.  So, before you sell your bitcoin, ask for a reduction in your salary, then wait a year Wink
Goldenmaw
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June 06, 2011, 11:32:02 PM
 #28

So instead of reaching out to the common man telling him about the truth; that taxes imply coercive use of force, and that "illegal goods" are not criminal, but criminalized, you will just keep the lie going on and on…
What truth?  Nevermind the illegal goods - I'm pro legalization damned near everything, for reasons of practicality, but the current power structure will never allow it.

But this tax business?  How do you propose we fund the public services that keep us ... Well, alive, and for the most part roving armed pillage gang free?
xf2_org
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June 06, 2011, 11:32:09 PM
 #29

Yes, I am definitely paying taxes in tax year 2011, related to bitcoin trading and sales.
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June 06, 2011, 11:32:15 PM
 #30

Do "capital gains" add to your total income for the purpose of determining your tax bracket or are they taxed at the rate of your income-only tax bracket?
I do not believe capital gains adds to your total income for determining your tax rate.
So what about students and the like, who perhaps have no income or have income so low as to qualify as exempt? I would assume they'd pay at the lowest bracket, right?

This is correct.  In 2011 for a non-married individual, if you make less than $34,500 you would pay 0% capital gains taxes.  So, before you sell your bitcoin, ask for a reduction in your salary, then wait a year Wink

Or just retire, then wait a year.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
yoyoceramic
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June 06, 2011, 11:33:40 PM
 #31

Do "capital gains" add to your total income for the purpose of determining your tax bracket or are they taxed at the rate of your income-only tax bracket?
I do not believe capital gains adds to your total income for determining your tax rate.
So what about students and the like, who perhaps have no income or have income so low as to qualify as exempt? I would assume they'd pay at the lowest bracket, right?

This is correct.  In 2011 for a non-married individual, if you make less than $34,500 you would pay 0% capital gains taxes.  So, before you sell your bitcoin, ask for a reduction in your salary, then wait a year Wink

Or just retire, then wait a year.

If retiring = zero income, then yes.  But any distributions from qualified plans, deferred comp, stock options, rental income, 85% of social security etc.. all count towards ordinary income.
enmaku
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June 06, 2011, 11:34:47 PM
 #32

Do "capital gains" add to your total income for the purpose of determining your tax bracket or are they taxed at the rate of your income-only tax bracket?
I do not believe capital gains adds to your total income for determining your tax rate.
So what about students and the like, who perhaps have no income or have income so low as to qualify as exempt? I would assume they'd pay at the lowest bracket, right?

This is correct.  In 2011 for a non-married individual, if you make less than $34,500 you would pay 0% capital gains taxes.  So, before you sell your bitcoin, ask for a reduction in your salary, then wait a year Wink
My fiancee is a full-time student who has no other source of income. Since bitcoins aren't legally recognized as money or stock would it be considered evasion if I gifted them to her and allowed her to liquidate them? Honestly I'm at work all day while she maintains the rigs anyway so really I'm less like the owner/operator and more like a contractor who build and installed the things  Tongue

yoyoceramic
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June 06, 2011, 11:35:15 PM
 #33

And keep in mind the long term capital gains rate is a 2 year holding period.  This is why I am recording all of my buy and sell transactions.  so that I have documentation to show the feds when they come knocking.
MoonShadow
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June 06, 2011, 11:35:37 PM
 #34

Do "capital gains" add to your total income for the purpose of determining your tax bracket or are they taxed at the rate of your income-only tax bracket?
I do not believe capital gains adds to your total income for determining your tax rate.
So what about students and the like, who perhaps have no income or have income so low as to qualify as exempt? I would assume they'd pay at the lowest bracket, right?

This is correct.  In 2011 for a non-married individual, if you make less than $34,500 you would pay 0% capital gains taxes.  So, before you sell your bitcoin, ask for a reduction in your salary, then wait a year Wink

Or just retire, then wait a year.

If retiring = zero income, then yes.  But any distributions from qualified plans, deferred comp, stock options, rental income, 85% of social security etc.. all count towards ordinary income.

Social Security payments don't, and the sad fact is that most Americans over 55 are counting on SS as a major component of their retirement funding, because they didn't bother to save anything.

"The powers of financial capitalism had another far-reaching aim, nothing less than to create a world system of financial control in private hands able to dominate the political system of each country and the economy of the world as a whole. This system was to be controlled in a feudalist fashion by the central banks of the world acting in concert, by secret agreements arrived at in frequent meetings and conferences. The apex of the systems was to be the Bank for International Settlements in Basel, Switzerland, a private bank owned and controlled by the world's central banks which were themselves private corporations. Each central bank...sought to dominate its government by its ability to control Treasury loans, to manipulate foreign exchanges, to influence the level of economic activity in the country, and to influence cooperative politicians by subsequent economic rewards in the business world."

- Carroll Quigley, CFR member, mentor to Bill Clinton, from 'Tragedy And Hope'
Lynzoi
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June 06, 2011, 11:36:39 PM
 #35

Actually, not even renouncing your citizenship may save you from certain taxes.

You should talk to the forum member Mike Gogulski, who went the whole way and became stateless.  

What? Really? That's messed up. I'll have to look into this.
This is correct.  In 2011 for a non-married individual, if you make less than $34,500 you would pay 0% capital gains taxes.  So, before you sell your bitcoin, ask for a reduction in your salary, then wait a year Wink
Well if this is true, it could work really well for me...

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yoyoceramic
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June 06, 2011, 11:37:44 PM
 #36

Actually, not even renouncing your citizenship may save you from certain taxes.

You should talk to the forum member Mike Gogulski, who went the whole way and became stateless.  

What? Really? That's messed up. I'll have to look into this.
This is correct.  In 2011 for a non-married individual, if you make less than $34,500 you would pay 0% capital gains taxes.  So, before you sell your bitcoin, ask for a reduction in your salary, then wait a year Wink
Well if this is true, it could work really well for me...

Source: http://www.moneychimp.com/features/tax_brackets.htm
yoyoceramic
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June 06, 2011, 11:44:23 PM
 #37

Do "capital gains" add to your total income for the purpose of determining your tax bracket or are they taxed at the rate of your income-only tax bracket?
I do not believe capital gains adds to your total income for determining your tax rate.
So what about students and the like, who perhaps have no income or have income so low as to qualify as exempt? I would assume they'd pay at the lowest bracket, right?

This is correct.  In 2011 for a non-married individual, if you make less than $34,500 you would pay 0% capital gains taxes.  So, before you sell your bitcoin, ask for a reduction in your salary, then wait a year Wink
My fiancee is a full-time student who has no other source of income. Since bitcoins aren't legally recognized as money or stock would it be considered evasion if I gifted them to her and allowed her to liquidate them? Honestly I'm at work all day while she maintains the rigs anyway so really I'm less like the owner/operator and more like a contractor who build and installed the things  Tongue

Well, you can gift up to $13,000 per year to an individual (or seperate individuals).  That is for your tax benefit.  Your beneficiary would still have to pay relevant taxes on the asset.  I'm not an estate planning attorney, but one of those guys would be able to answer these types of questions.  There are definitely legal ways to get to the coin on a tax favored basis, but it usually makes sense if you are uber wealthy (IE, you will meet hit the 5Mil lifetime gifting limit)
enmaku
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June 06, 2011, 11:46:33 PM
 #38

Do "capital gains" add to your total income for the purpose of determining your tax bracket or are they taxed at the rate of your income-only tax bracket?
I do not believe capital gains adds to your total income for determining your tax rate.
So what about students and the like, who perhaps have no income or have income so low as to qualify as exempt? I would assume they'd pay at the lowest bracket, right?

This is correct.  In 2011 for a non-married individual, if you make less than $34,500 you would pay 0% capital gains taxes.  So, before you sell your bitcoin, ask for a reduction in your salary, then wait a year Wink
My fiancee is a full-time student who has no other source of income. Since bitcoins aren't legally recognized as money or stock would it be considered evasion if I gifted them to her and allowed her to liquidate them? Honestly I'm at work all day while she maintains the rigs anyway so really I'm less like the owner/operator and more like a contractor who build and installed the things  Tongue

Well, you can gift up to $13,000 per year to an individual (or seperate individuals).  That is for your tax benefit.  Your beneficiary would still have to pay relevant taxes on the asset.  I'm not an estate planning attorney, but one of those guys would be able to answer these types of questions.  There are definitely legal ways to get to the coin on a tax favored basis, but it usually makes sense if you are uber wealthy (IE, you will meet hit the 5Mil lifetime gifting limit)
OK, what if the coins are never actually mine? I.E. she owns the MtGox account, the Dwolla acct and the bank account? That could be set up pretty easily.

enmaku
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June 06, 2011, 11:51:35 PM
 #39

Yeah never mind, I guess that was a stupidly obvious question  Grin

nickwit
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June 06, 2011, 11:55:06 PM
 #40

yea, I'll pay taxes.

The free healthcare that I get in this country has saved my life on several occasions... if it was like the American system then my parents would have lost their house long ago.

In this country being poor isn't a life-threatening condition, and this makes a massive difference to the quality of life here.

My education was free - instead of being sold into indentured servitude in the guise of a student loan, I was paid a grant to go to university.

I'm happy to contribute to the welfare of the nation so young people can have the same freedom I had.
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