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Author Topic: Are you going to pay taxes?  (Read 13364 times)
enmaku
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June 06, 2011, 11:59:28 PM
 #41

yea, I'll pay taxes.

The free healthcare that I get in this country has saved my life on several occasions... if it was like the American system then my parents would have lost their house long ago.

In this country being poor isn't a life-threatening condition, and this makes a massive difference to the quality of life here.

My education was free - instead of being sold into indentured servitude in the guise of a student loan, I was paid a grant to go to university.

I'm happy to contribute to the welfare of the nation so young people can have the same freedom I had.
That's an excellent way to look at it.

I don't personally believe that we *need* a government but I think that a well-run government has a lot of benefits, like your free education or health care. I don't mind paying taxes either; what bothers me is unnecessarily complex taxation systems that hide how much we actually pay. First they tax us on our income, then on our property, then they tax all of our sales. There are special taxes on things they don't want us to do (like smoke) and tax breaks on things they do want us to do (like buy efficient cars). I'd be all for a simple income tax, flat, bracketed, whatever, just make it a simple system and I'll be ok with it. The fact that I can't actually calculate exactly how much I'm actually paying in taxes is a problem.

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June 07, 2011, 12:01:39 AM
 #42

Don't answer this question. Just my 2 dobits. Answering will not help you one way or the other, but could possibly harm you.

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June 07, 2011, 12:02:04 AM
 #43

None of that was 'free'. It was stolen from somebody's labor.
enmaku
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June 07, 2011, 12:13:52 AM
 #44

None of that was 'free'. It was stolen from somebody's labor.
I agree with you to a point on this one. I would love to live in a more socialized country where people helped each other because they cared, where communities came together and fixed and built things for the good of the whole. It's a lovely dream. Unfortunately "It is not the possessions but the desires of mankind which require to be equalized" (Aristotle).

There are a lot of us who would love to live in such a world. Amongst my friends and I, nothing is bought sold or paid for, there are only gifts and barter; How wonderful might it be to extend that to the scale of a community, a nation or a world? Unfortunately the majority are not there yet. Our numbers grow with every generation, but our altruistic sociology/memetics has not yet overcome our selfish biology. Maybe my distant descendants will live in such a world, but for now I consider a fair amount of taxation to be the government taking a fair share from those who will give it and demanding it from those who will not.

Now I never did say, though, that I believe the current system of taxation is fair  Wink

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June 07, 2011, 12:25:42 AM
 #45

well-run government has a lot of benefits

What's that? A contradiction in terms I think.  Socialism only works well on the small scale.  Governments which espouse socialism are generally bloated and slow.  They use the entitlements to manipulate the people into voting them back in every year.  So much so when they start sinking and have to cut entitlements people riot in the streets.

Private industry does a way better job, even private charities have been shown to do a much better job dollar for dollar than giant government programs.  Almost all of which in all nations are loaded with waste, bloat and fraud.  If you don't think such things happen with the social programs in your country it's more likely they are good at hiding the problems, not at actually running the programs.

If you think that the US is so bad or that people you know would be on the streets, then why isn't the US jammed to the brim with homeless and people dieing from lack of health care?  I work on the vendor side of the healthcare industry and I could rant on socialized medicine's failures for hours.  To put it plainly, the health care in the US is much better, even if you are poor and many life saving tests aren't even available in Europe because the governments there don't want to pay for it.

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June 07, 2011, 12:42:18 AM
 #46

yea, I'll pay taxes.

The free healthcare that I get in this country has saved my life on several occasions... if it was like the American system then my parents would have lost their house long ago.

A healthcare system that is only free for those who have serious/catastrophic conditions can be funded by a $100/month compulsory insurance rather than a 50% tax on everyone's income.

The problem with a system where everything is free for everyone, even for people who could easily afford to pay $5000 for a IVF treatment out of their own pocket, is that people overuse it, leading to ever increasing costs and eventually, severe rationing or state bankruptcy.

Anyhow, the American public healthcare system isn't shit because there is a lack of government funding. It's shit because it's wasteful.  The American government spends the roughly same amount of money per capita on healthcare as the German government. No joke.  (source: WHO).

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June 07, 2011, 12:51:43 AM
 #47

It was only "stolen from someone else's labour" from the point of view of right-wing cranks... who have pushed their free-market "beliefs" so far past fundamentalism that they come across like crackpot unabomber clones.

We all contribute, we all benefit... and we all benefit in a whole complex of different ways that don't show up on your infantile balance-sheets.  My neighbour not losing their house because they are sick makes my life better. Get it? No you don't get it, because my taxes paying for my neighbour's hospital is (to you) "theft".

Idiocy. Good luck with that.

Still... fuck theory. Let's take a look around the world and see what is working best.

Not hard is it? Every social metric you care to look at puts countries with strong social-spending at the top. America will be lucky to survive what conservatives are doing to it.... and the "Libertarian" response to this?... to wealth corrupting democracy?.... "Hey, let's get rid of democracy... and cede all power to wealth".


--

"To put it plainly, the health care in the US is much better"

LOL. Jesus.

As I said... if we had the American system here my parents would have lost their house decades ago. America to the rest of the world (and quite a bit of America itself) is completely insane. It's a kind of Walmart Dickensianism - sold as "freedom".
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June 07, 2011, 12:53:43 AM
 #48

Are you going to pay taxes on your Bitcoin profits?

Suppose you make a million dollars. Suppose you have already made a million dollars. Are you going to hand half of that cash over to the government? Of course, this is assuming you convert your coins into federally recognized cash. If your only intention is to amass a huge supply of Bitcoins, the question does not apply to you.

You're supposed to pay income taxes. It seems rather easy to get away with not doing it, though... at least in this case.

The dollars I used to buy bitcoin were already taxed, income tax withholding taken out of my paycheck. I owe no tax unless I "sell" at a profit and I'm not going to trade them back for dollars, so there are no capital gains. I will trade them at a later date which is considered barter and barter is legal.

Except for short-term cash-flow reasons, I can't imagine why anyone would trade a non-dilutable currency for depreciating bank notes. I'm never going back. Ever. Bitcoin is the real money.

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June 07, 2011, 12:54:01 AM
 #49

No you don't get it, because my taxes paying for my neighbour's hospital is (to you) "theft".
..but making me pay for your friend is.

Also, the healthcare here in America was fine until the healthcare corporations got in bed with the government.
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June 07, 2011, 12:56:15 AM
 #50

Also, the 'social' countries at the 'top' are not doing well. They will soon fail.

...and the happiest nations on the planet are actually the poorest. I will provide citations upon request.

...and America is not in a state of democracy nor a free-market. It's a corporate state.
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June 07, 2011, 01:09:00 AM
 #51

Nope. What the hell's the point of barter if the state's going to get a piece of it?

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June 07, 2011, 01:11:51 AM
 #52

Yes (US)

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Grant
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June 07, 2011, 01:12:20 AM
 #53

yea, I'll pay taxes.

The free healthcare that I get in this country has saved my life on several occasions... if it was like the American system then my parents would have lost their house long ago.

In this country being poor isn't a life-threatening condition, and this makes a massive difference to the quality of life here.

My education was free - instead of being sold into indentured servitude in the guise of a student loan, I was paid a grant to go to university.

I'm happy to contribute to the welfare of the nation so young people can have the same freedom I had.

Doesn't freedom require that people have a choice ? Don't mistake me for being a ultra-right-wing-anarcho-capitalist. I simply believe that freedom should not be spelled tyranny, let me explain.

The income tax, as it was originally invented, was supposed to be voluntary. Together with its "free" benefits, therefore it would make sense that those who pay income tax get a hostital or whatever else that the state funds with that money as reward. (similar to an insurance company)

But what about those that prefer to live their life the more speculative way ? Why shouldn't they be given the choice to die if they chose to not pay taxes and endup getting sick and can't afford the treatment ? Why should they be treated as criminals ?

Imo it's not as black and white as people love to think "You don't support taxes, you don't support freedom", or as those at opposite side of the coin love to say "You support taxes, you support theft". Ithink both of those views are heavily corrupted by the "-ists" from both the left wing and the right wing. I believe, choice is essential for having a free society. It's just as wrong to force people to pay taxes as it would be to force people to die because they weren't allowed to insure (or tax) their health (either through direct taxation or through a private insurance company, it doesn't really matter except a private company would likely be cheaper in the long run due to competition)

ps: if you can name me a free country let me know how they deal with voluntary income tax Smiley

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June 07, 2011, 01:17:06 AM
 #54

yea, I'll pay taxes.

The free healthcare that I get in this country has saved my life on several occasions... if it was like the American system then my parents would have lost their house long ago.

In this country being poor isn't a life-threatening condition, and this makes a massive difference to the quality of life here.

My education was free - instead of being sold into indentured servitude in the guise of a student loan, I was paid a grant to go to university.

I'm happy to contribute to the welfare of the nation so young people can have the same freedom I had.
What is your tax rate?
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June 07, 2011, 01:18:56 AM
 #55

Some say that most of your tax dollars just goes to pay off the debt to the fed and such.  To think that your taxes are actually funding the government might be a lie to some extent.
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June 07, 2011, 01:31:36 AM
 #56

Yes, as long as US law requires taxes and I remain in the US. I run my Bitcoin operations through a registered LLC.

Any change can be worked towards a lot more effectively, while not in prison. I also have a family that I enjoy seeing.
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June 07, 2011, 01:50:36 AM
 #57

Yes. The British government may be wasteful, may support things I don't like etc. but I like the comfort of having roads, police, the NHS, councils, and some form of minimum wage control.

Oh yes, you're frothing at the mouth right now. I don't care.
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June 07, 2011, 01:53:04 AM
 #58

Yes. The British government may be wasteful, may support things I don't like etc. but I like the comfort of having roads, police, the NHS, councils, and some form of minimum wage control.

Oh yes, you're frothing at the mouth right now. I don't care.

Roads, police and valid wages can exist without taxes.

The NHS and councils are parasites.
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June 07, 2011, 02:04:07 AM
 #59

I'm sure some US banks are already reporting repeated ACH deposits from Dwolla into customers' bank accounts as Suspicious Activity Reports. Technically SARs only need to be filed for transactions over $5K and I believe that withdrawals from Mt. Gox are typically smaller than that. However, I have heard of at least one bank filing SARs for smaller amounts that occur repeatedly, just to cover their asses.

I'm willing to bet that there are a few pimply-faced kids who have never earned a cent in their entire lives who've made a killing in mining Bitcoins. Some of them might have made more than $100K in Dwolla ACH transfers into their bank accounts and spent it all without thinking of the tax consequences. They'd be in for a rude surprise if the IRS decides to audit them and demand their share.
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June 07, 2011, 02:42:58 AM
 #60

But this tax business?  How do you propose we fund the public services that keep us ... Well, alive, and for the most part roving armed pillage gang free?

How do we fund things that we want to use? What is so incredibly complicated about paying for things directly? I assume you own a computer. Did you steal it? A computer is an especially complex piece of technical equipment, requiring the cooperation of hundreds... thousands of different companies. Is it so hard to imagine that hundreds of companies couldn't work together in the same fashion to lay asphalt down on long strips of land?

As for the "alive," part... speculative, at best. To be sure, many people benefit directly from state coercion... just as many people in the mafia benefit from shake downs. Pointing to anecdotal evidence of a perceived benefit while ignoring the unseen costs is disingenuous.

Finally... roving gangs, really? That's the best argument in favor of taxation? "Taxation: Keeping us safe from roving gangs since 1913" I wasn't aware of any roving gangs in 1911. Organized crime didn't really become... organized until after taxation was established, and prohibition began.

In the late 1800's, the "wild west" wasn't really that wild (1) These people coexistented with relatively little conflict.

Thomas Woods says the following:

"Put generally, we found the western bank-robbery scene to be a myth. Yes, a handful of robberies occurred. In the roughly 40 years, spread across these 15 states, we identified three or four definite ones; and in subsequent correspondence with academics anxious to help us “clarify the record,” perhaps two or three others were pointed out. We missed two “biggies,” both by Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid (including the famous Telluride robbery in the late 1890s). Still, the record is shockingly clear: there are more bank robberies in modern-day Dayton, Ohio, in a year than there were in the entire Old West in a decade, perhaps in the entire frontier period!" (2)

So it seems that the modern picture of history, especially pre-taxation and pre-big government history, is largely distorted by Hollywood. Politicians play into these myths, since it benefits them to perpetuate the notion that social organization can occur efficiently without central planning or violence.

(1) http://www.amazon.com/Not-So-Wild-West-Economics/dp/0804748543
(2) http://www.thefreemanonline.org/featured/the-non-existent-frontier-bank-robbery

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