Hacking KNC Titan / Jupiter / Neptune miners back to life. Why not?

[lightfoot]

And a sad, sad little epilouge here...

Started removing the erickson power supplies. One came up a mess, it's literally got a smoke mark under the supply, right where the power supply's control chip is. Sure enough the chip is cracked and burned.

My guess is the back-feed from the failed 12v supply took out the 3.3 line and burned out things on it. It's shorted, but even after removal the board is still shorted. My guess is the reason these boards have burns under the main chip is that's where the 3.3v line goes to power the hotel circuits on the main hashing chip. And with that shorted, board no work no more.

Crap. Must have been a really big power supply. Oh well, will take a break for awhile and think about next steps with the remaining units.

[Titan-Allen]

And a sad, sad little epilouge here...

Started removing the erickson power supplies. One came up a mess, it's literally got a smoke mark under the supply, right where the power supply's control chip is. Sure enough the chip is cracked and burned.

My guess is the back-feed from the failed 12v supply took out the 3.3 line and burned out things on it. It's shorted, but even after removal the board is still shorted. My guess is the reason these boards have burns under the main chip is that's where the 3.3v line goes to power the hotel circuits on the main hashing chip. And with that shorted, board no work no more.

Crap. Must have been a really big power supply. Oh well, will take a break for awhile and think about next steps with the remaining units.

So you are saying the entire board is completely toast, not repairable? If there is a short between the 3.3V and the 12V power feeds, it would affect the entire chain, back to the 10-pin connector. Next question: Is it possible to sever/isolate the entire chain, from ASIC, through associated VRMs, to 10-pin to keep that path from affecting the other operating pathways/ASICs, in effect disabling that entire branch of the board? Are these particular pathways accessible on layer 1 (surface layer) or, are there other layers of the board involved, which are not accessible (much work, much risk)? In effect, if you can isolate the entire branch, severing the connection with the rest of the functioning branches/board, you would have recoverable branches allowing some degree of continuing functionality.

Yep, it sure sounds like KNC just took as many short-cuts as possible with these units. There were no provisions made for fail-safes to protect the various branches of the board, should a terminal failure occur with any of the branches independently. :/

This thread is highly educational and well-valued.

[lightfoot]

Well if the failure is under the chip in the chip itself then one is fucked. Removing the hashing chip is possible (did it with a Neptune) but reballing it is impossible for a person with 80mm reballing tools. Reballing a simple BGA is enough of a pain, trying to do a Titan would be damn near impossible. Still, I am wondering, maybe there is something else on the board that could be shorted. If we had a damn schematic this would be simple. But we don't, unless someone does........

I suppose I could try applying a large current voltage to blow apart the short, but that is a serious one way trip. I'll talk to the client first and get their guidance.

[Titan-Allen]

Well if the failure is under the chip in the chip itself then one is fucked. Removing the hashing chip is possible (did it with a Neptune) but reballing it is impossible for a person with 80mm reballing tools. Reballing a simple BGA is enough of a pain, trying to do a Titan would be damn near impossible. Still, I am wondering, maybe there is something else on the board that could be shorted. If we had a damn schematic this would be simple. But we don't, unless someone does........

I suppose I could try applying a large current voltage to blow apart the short, but that is a serious one way trip. I'll talk to the client first and get their guidance.

Yes, that might be a bit extreme, but if the unit cannot function at all, then it is already toast. There are basically only two effective ways to map out the layers and traces. You can sand down a donor board, layer by layer, photographing each layer. Or, you can use x-ray and have each layer mapped that way. In any case, with the new 3D PCB printers coming out, we are getting closer now to being able to replicate these at home. You really only need a Gerber file to upload to the new printers for the printing process. The costs have to be computed however. If it costs $150 to replicate a board, without the ASICs, then it is a viable project, solving almost all of the inherent problems. I suspect that the traces on the existing boards are too thin for the amperage coursing through them.

The only other problem is the ASIC chips. Those can be backward engineered. I have searched for the patents on the ASICs themselves. I have yet to find a single patent for these in Sweden, or anywhere else for that matter. I am sure there are Chinese companies willing to backward engineer them, but now we are back to cost.

http://www.ast.co.il/#!knc-alchip-ast-titan-ltc/cdt1  I reached out to these companies (except KnC) to see if there were leftover ASIC chips which could be purchased in bulk. I heard nothing back from them.

All other components are readily available on the market.

Finally, there is the risk associated with Litecoin price (basically tied to Bitcoin performance). By the time you get through the whole process, it could be another year and, depending on the number of first-run chips pre-purchased, the demand for re-manufactured boards (ASIC and all) could be more than what they would produce on a profitable basis, through mining. Based on current Titan costs on eBay, and the present profitability of the units mining, it could effectively be very profitable, provided the technology is properly upgraded, with the board architecture tweaked to higher performance standards, especially the lower grade traces on the layers, which are probably not enough for the amperage load they presently see.

Anyway.... it is only a thought at the moment. I know how sensitive KnC would be to have their products re-manufactured by a third party, even though they are out of the consumer market, and no longer have these produced for themselves. More or less, this would be more easily accomplished under a licensing agreement with KnC, but would need to include some re-engineering of the architecture, regardless.

[lightfoot]

I keep repeating to myself: "I will not build a miner, I will not build a miner". While seductive, that way lies DOOOOOOM!!!!!!

Anyway, with nothing else to do but things I should be doing I'm screwing with the neptune/titan firmware. KNC has all sorts of weirdness in these config files, I got a Neptune to think it was a Raspberry pi but it doesn't survive a reboot. System goes "WHAT THE HELL AM I???" and resets the files.

Need a bigger mellon-baller here to do a proper lobotomy....

[GenTarkin]

I keep repeating to myself: "I will not build a miner, I will not build a miner". While seductive, that way lies DOOOOOOM!!!!!!

Anyway, with nothing else to do but things I should be doing I'm screwing with the neptune/titan firmware. KNC has all sorts of weirdness in these config files, I got a Neptune to think it was a Raspberry pi but it doesn't survive a reboot. System goes "WHAT THE HELL AM I???" and resets the files.

Need a bigger mellon-baller here to do a proper lobotomy....

Hey, if u have the ability to build a miner more power to you!... u would make a fortune, thats the only reason why ASIC companies exist. Those who supply the shovels in a gold rush era are the only ones who really profit =)

[lightfoot]

Hey, if u have the ability to build a miner more power to you!... u would make a fortune, thats the only reason why ASIC companies exist. Those who supply the shovels in a gold rush era are the only ones who really profit =)

No no no no no no nonononononono.

I would try to make the damn thing reliable, solid, stable, stuff like that. Which would make it totally uneconomical to sell in any quantity when the fucking shysters are selling junk that works at first, but when it blows up they're gone (see: exit strategy). Oh and I would be up against people who raise millions in "venture capital" with either pre-orders, groupons, or fuck knows what else is used to finance today...

That's the #1 problem with the concept of building miners: It's a race to the absolute bottom in quality. Not worth fortunes.

Instead I'll sharpen shovels, supply tips on making the shovels better, stuff like that. Titans can take a very interesting edge.... :-)

[Titan-Allen]

Hey, if u have the ability to build a miner more power to you!... u would make a fortune, thats the only reason why ASIC companies exist. Those who supply the shovels in a gold rush era are the only ones who really profit =)

No no no no no no nonononononono.

I would try to make the damn thing reliable, solid, stable, stuff like that. Which would make it totally uneconomical to sell in any quantity when the fucking shysters are selling junk that works at first, but when it blows up they're gone (see: exit strategy). Oh and I would be up against people who raise millions in "venture capital" with either pre-orders, groupons, or fuck knows what else is used to finance today...

That's the #1 problem with the concept of building miners: It's a race to the absolute bottom in quality. Not worth fortunes.

Instead I'll sharpen shovels, supply tips on making the shovels better, stuff like that. Titans can take a very interesting edge.... :-)

LOL

[Searing]

I keep repeating to myself: "I will not build a miner, I will not build a miner". While seductive, that way lies DOOOOOOM!!!!!!

Anyway, with nothing else to do but things I should be doing I'm screwing with the neptune/titan firmware. KNC has all sorts of weirdness in these config files, I got a Neptune to think it was a Raspberry pi but it doesn't survive a reboot. System goes "WHAT THE HELL AM I???" and resets the files.

Need a bigger mellon-baller here to do a proper lobotomy....

yeah ...getting a titan board to work with a bbb would be 'epic' esp if glen tarkin supported such with a version of his firmware


by the by still trying to be 'brave' and see if that 'clone bridge' i have will work with a pi and the below (see pics) Oct Jupiter 550gh 4 port board.

I figure I could just try it.....put the LCD in the slot..NO CUBES and if the LCD yelled it was OK and a Titan and the GUI came up with no cubes

I'd be golden

(got to be out of my frigging mind)

OR

I could simply send the works to YOU ....the proper Raspberry Pi B+ 512mb for a Titan (me thinks that is correct or at least what I got from KNC rep
for having about as a spare with NOV 2014 PI fail rates on shipping etc)....the 'clone titan bridge (identical in all ways to KNC version incl silk screen logo lol)
and the LCD screen I don't use

Then once it is in your hot little hands perhaps you could look it over and just use 'pin cables' with the WITHOUT THE NEED FOR ANY proper daughter board placement to the PI and just
plain 'get around' needing a 'daughter board clone' at all....lots of spaghetti cables but hey maybe we are 'overthinking' stuff ..it is NOT like KNC put any real thought in this (IMHO)
easy, cheap and lazy could be to our 'advantage' on such a unicorn project.......would be ugly as hell but wtf ..if it worked a lot of folks would be very happy ..ju

but anyway options...or I can just break down someday when I get time and just 'blow it up' myself (ah hobbies the joy of despair yet joy of destruction from cool sparky explosions)


let me know here are the pics for all to see ..just in case they have an ugly OCT 2013 Jupiter/Saturn/Mercury BBB setup the same ....still from back in the day...
if the links don't take look under the Jupiter 550gh Album on the link below ...All should be public ...my somewhat 'dubious' evil KNC Shirine ..don't ya know

lostgonzo.imgur.com





An 'uglier' KNC 4 port card ..has likely never been shown on here.... ugly duckling that it is....I'd like to see if we could make it into a Swan' (or roast duck whichever)

If nothing else this works..we probably will have a 'good idea' of why the 4 month delay on Neptune's (going into data halls as they yanked out the Jupiter's) and on
a side note what happened to the controllers for these ...Jupiter units and likely Titans units..thus their also 4 month delay.....why make new port boards when you
can recycle! (assuming the above works and I don't blow up everything ..big assumption that this works)

if that is the case (conjecture on my part) you have to give KNC credit they really, really do have this who 'Evil Genius Empire' thing down pat!


EDIT: Got a PM from Lightfoot he says 'go for it' I don't have time (my rant on stuff related on knc swedish thread link below) only 2 days off every 12 days so anyone
want to beat me to test this feel free ..in link below

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=170332.msg13751378#msg13751378

but looking like 'spaghetti cables' may work also (no need for titan daughter board)

but I have all the parts old pi B+ 512mb and LCD to use...the 'cloned qbert supplied daughter board' and MY old 0ct 2013 KNC 4 port Jupiter board

but again may not get to it ...anyone with same parts from an old Jupiter/Saturn/Mercury/Neptune feel free to give the above cable option a try (hey if its sitting about wtf)

me I'll get to it when I can and let folk know if the daughter board option worked....but gbert who made the clone titan bridges has the schematics for such someone w/o

a cloned daughter board and an old jupiter or whatever card laying about and a pi could give the spagetti cable idea a shot


again if it comes up on the LCD and/or the GUI as a Titan with no cubes we are probably golden

[lightfoot]

lightfoot,

Need you address to send in my sick controller. Changing bridge and RPi didn't work. Controller still restarts every 2-3 mins, doesn't recognize any cube, LCD screen stays dimly lit w/ no bright LED or any LED.

Hey Hawk, bad news:

There's nothing wrong with your board.

More specifically I put on a test beaglebone and checked it with a neptune. Happy light, green light, mines fine, display works. Ran for a few hours, FPGA cool.

Popped your titan code into a sample titan. Works fine. Code ok.

Popped a default Titan code into it, works fine. Hooked it up to hash, works fine.

HOWEVER I did notice something: Your Pi doesn't have the standoff to the controller board. If I prop up the Pi by having the network cable on something nothing works. My guess is the Pi loses contact on its' header pins when not parallel to the bridge board. So you need a stand off there to keep it parallel to the board underneath it.

I'll let it run on test overnight, but sometimes nothing is really wrong....

[hawkfish007]

lightfoot,

Need you address to send in my sick controller. Changing bridge and RPi didn't work. Controller still restarts every 2-3 mins, doesn't recognize any cube, LCD screen stays dimly lit w/ no bright LED or any LED.

Hey Hawk, bad news:

There's nothing wrong with your board.

More specifically I put on a test beaglebone and checked it with a neptune. Happy light, green light, mines fine, display works. Ran for a few hours, FPGA cool.

Popped your titan code into a sample titan. Works fine. Code ok.

Popped a default Titan code into it, works fine. Hooked it up to hash, works fine.

HOWEVER I did notice something: Your Pi doesn't have the standoff to the controller board. If I prop up the Pi by having the network cable on something nothing works. My guess is the Pi loses contact on its' header pins when not parallel to the bridge board. So you need a stand off there to keep it parallel to the board underneath it.

I'll let it run on test overnight, but sometimes nothing is really wrong....

That's sucks, but I am happy. For some reason, I couldn't get it to work, the pi would constantly restarts. Have you tried using the image on the SD card I sent? Is the LCD screen working, showing IP address and Titan firmware etc.? I have the plastic spacer which I could install. But curious why it was acting up when I tried to use it with or without any cubes. Please PM me your BTC address for shipping cost and your time.
Thanks.

[Searing]

Got a PM from Lightfoot he says 'go for it' I don't have time (my rant on stuff related on knc swedish thread link below) only 2 days off every 12 days so anyone
want to beat me to test this feel free ..in link below

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=170332.msg13751378#msg13751378

but looking like 'spaghetti cables' may work also (no need for titan daughter board)

but I have all the parts old pi B+ 512mb and LCD to use...the 'cloned qbert supplied daughter board' and MY old 0ct 2013 KNC 4 port Jupiter board

but again may not get to it ...anyone with same parts from an old Jupiter/Saturn/Mercury/Neptune feel free to give the above cable option a try (hey if its sitting about wtf)

me I'll get to it when I can and let folk know if the daughter board option worked....but gbert who made the clone titan bridges has the schematics for such someone w/o

a cloned daughter board and an old jupiter or whatever card laying about and a pi could give the spagetti cable idea a shot


again if it comes up on the LCD and/or the GUI as a Titan with no cubes we are probably golden


also edited the above to my post with pics for clarity check out the reply on the other thread above for more details (ramblings or whatever)

[lightfoot]

Update: Parts in, boards being fixed, always nice. Will tackle the one controller board that got totally burned later.

In the meantime, speaking of "burn" this is why you really should run your miners at a bit less than "full fucking blast" (yes, that is a Y connector. No, the house is not in danger of burning down. Yes... Well yes.)


Must have been some dirt. Hint: Don't unplug a cube with power on or plug in with power on. Sad things happen.

Sad:
Pulling the power molex sockets off is a bitch on wheels by the way. I recommend cutting the top three connectors, and melting normal solder onto the 3 bottom pins, then getting the connector off, then getting the cut top pins off.

More later.

[hawkfish007]

lightfoot,

I got the controller and bridges back. Right after turning on the PSU, I knew that the controller will work by looking at the red blinking LED on the RPi and it worked. My other controller started working also. I am guessing PSU might be at fault before. Thanks.

BTW, I have 2 heavy duty bridges from qberty for sale. 0.5BTC each including shipping. If any body needs one, please pm me.

[lightfoot]

Another happy customer. Glad everything's back to normal!

[mmfiore]

I did purchase GenTarken software and it is working great! It has a feature that warns you a cube is overheating. It tells what cube and then shuts off that die. I use this to determine if the cube needs to be refurbished and do a PM on it to get it to cool down. Its great software and I highly recomend it.

[lightfoot]

Hm. Some progress on the Titans and really wrecked controller boards:

I'm mapping out the schematic for the power supply on the control board, it looks like some of the traces were damaged. Specifically one out of the three supplies comes up, one is a wild voltage, and one is down. I think the issue is the choke line on the second and a short on the third. Will continue working on it.

On the Titan end, I'm tracing down those faults on the SDA lines. They are in the chip, that much is certain. However the clock still seems to be ok, so what I am wondering is can I find a way to cut the trace to the chip itself. I know how KNC types would think, if they knew they could have an SDA lines they would have a way to bypass it. Hm....

[GenTarkin]

I did purchase GenTarken software and it is working great! It has a feature that warns you a cube is overheating. It tells what cube and then shuts off that die. I use this to determine if the cube needs to be refurbished and do a PM on it to get it to cool down. Its great software and I highly recomend it.

Thanks for your kind words & feedback! =)

[lightfoot]

Hm. Pin 4 short on the 10 pin line to a dead Titan board cleared with a few amps of power at 3.3 volts. Drat, probably silicon.

Pin 6 however is hard shorted. No amount of current will clear, and I see no indication of connection to the chip or anything on the board. Weird as hell. Need to source pin 6 on the controller board and see exactly what line that is.

Another thought: I found four lines going to the chip, one per corner. Each one has a very clear set of 0 ohm jumpers between board and chip, clearing the jumpers shows solid resistance on the lines. It's possible those are the SCL connections to each chip corner, will continue to review. But clearing them did *not* clear the faults. Damn I wish I had a fracking connection map for this thing. Hate vendors who don't release anything. Ug!

Ahem. Ok, back to other things.

[lightfoot]

Very. Very. Interesting.

So I'm working on the hulk of a Titan board, wreck, taking apart. Pins 4 and 6 were shorted to ground, blows controllers, two more just like it from a major power supply existence failure.

After removing just about every component in existence on the 4 rail (which is vcc for the accessory devices) I gave it a shock on that line with 5 volts several amps. Line cleared, 9k resistance to ground. Pin 6 is still dead, it is a totally hard short, not sure where it is or goes. Crap.

Anyway, Plugged it into the scratch Neptune controller, didn't blow anything, didn't do anything. Plugged it into the scratch titan, nothing.

Except. Except that slot reported as type TI. Which means the EEPROM came online and checked in when queried. It has no more power supplies, has no more hope, but it did squeak which indicates:

1) The SCL line and clock lines are undamaged
2) Pin 4 is the power line for the accessories.

And oddly enough the temp chip didn't say anything. Hm. Hm de hm de hm...

I don't want to power shock the second board, I'd rather find the bad component. I wonder what would happen if I put a new LM75 chip on there....