Bitcoin Foundation: Where on Earth Did all the Money Go?

[rizzlarolla]

Bruce

I want to be be able to come on this board in the future and say "look at the positive things this org has done"

And so do I, and so does franky, but...

Bruce

I still haven't heard a compelling case about how lots of time, effort and money dwelling on these errors helps Bitcoin.

Principle is a funny thing. you either get it or you dont.

Bruce

I volunteered to help Bitcoin not chase skeletons.

rizz

Even if you still add, (due to lack of finance) "provided someone can lead it and do the work involved and/ or support the costs of one."

The thing is with this:  do you realize you are asking me to take my own personal free time away from my job, work and family to pursue something that I don't believe in?

Why would that be on me any more than it is on you?

I didn't create the foundation, I wasn't involved in it during the early days like so many on this thread.

I ad absolutely nothing to do with it until earlier this year....after the problems.

It's no more mine than yours.

I have a limited amount of spare time -- I'm willing to use that time, my knowledge, connections and any abilities I have to do things which I personally think help Bitcoin:  organize conferences etc.  

I'm a volunteer.  This is what I volunteered to do and it takes tons of time.

I think it would make a lot more sense to expect me to do this if I 1) was paid or 2) had anything whatsoever to do with these issues.

For me this feels like showing up at soup kitchen:

"Hi, I'm Bruce, I want to volunteer to feed the homeless people."

"Screw you, the guy who fed the homeless people three people before you who you never met wasted the money on donuts.  We already know he wasted the money.  Forget the food, get down in the basement and go through the file cabinet and audit for more details."

No. quite the opposite.

I'm trying to NOT ask for your time.
(ok, To Be Fair, a SMALL amount of your time is probably inevitable, but..)

You dont seem to be reading "provided someone can lead it and do the work involved and/ or support the costs of one."
Also, you dont seem to read, as I am, that general consensus seems to want (or not strongly object to) an audit, (or other independent investigation)
Good starting point, which may afford you some credit to continue TBF.

I see it more like this, if we are sidetracked again,

"Hi, im Bruce, I want to volunteer to feed the homeless people."

"Ok, Thanks for volunteering," replied the echo "but the homeless dont trust "This Big Food" cafe any more, unfortunately, as the last chefs poisoned the hobo's dinner.
However, if you conducted an appraisal of the old ingredient's while you assemble a new ingredient list, the hobo's may see why they got ill, and be more assured it wont happen again"

"But I came to cook" cries Bruce "I poisoned no one, I wasn't here. I cant cook AND conduct an appraisal of past ingredient's. People will go hungry."

"I understand Bruce" echoed the echo "if you invite the hobo's to organise/conduct the appraisal, and ask any ex chefs who would like to contribute financially, then maybe YOU could start to clean the kitchen. Given time, when the hobos see how clean the kitchen is, and they compare ingredients, when they smell the food cooking, when they...."

"No" says bruce "thats a waste of time. There hobo's crist sake. They can take it or leave it"


I cant explain my view more clearly than I have till now.
It may well be an irrelevant/undesired view, but I thought it was/is clear. now.
Watching.

[BruceFenton]

Thanks, heading in the right direction.

Current monthly expenses? Would probably help if you had the actual figures handy [perhaps posted?] -- wording like 'I'm guessing' and 'about' doesn't inspire confidence.

Current monthly expenses are approximately $8/k a month down 94% from the peak under previous admin of $150k/ mo.  

The financials are posted every month.  I estimate because something like total outstanding bills paid since I volunteered is not a single line item.  I'd have to add up each month.  Anyone can do that based on the financials. I have only limited time & try to answer as much as I can.  

[QuestionAuthority]

Types of Nonprofits

There are different types of nonprofits, which fall under different sections of the IRS tax code. A foundation differs from a social welfare charity, in that a foundation is a 501c(3). Under section 501c(3) of the tax code contributions are tax deductible, whereas a 501c(4) contributions are not tax deductible, because these organizations engage in legislative lobbying and political campaigns.

Accounting Basics for Nonprofits

A nonprofit produces a statement of financial activities that states the expenses and income of the nonprofit for a certain period. The statement of financial position is a statement that shows the nonprofit's assets, liabilities and change in net assets during the year. Assets are segregated between unrestricted, temporarily restricted and permanently restricted net asset classes. Unrestricted assets have no use restrictions, whereas temporarily restricted assets have a specific purpose and/or time period provision. However, permanently restricted assets must be spent in line with the donor's wishes. In order for a registered 501c(3) to maintain its tax-exempt status, the organization cannot engage in certain political activities and it must retain earned income for the uses specified in its bylaws.

Chances are TBF has already lost its non-profit status. And please, don't insult anyone's intelligence by saying something ridiculous like, "but that was Timmy - not me. Timmy's not here anymore so we don't have to worry about the laws Timmy violated."

An international foundation will need millions and millions of dollars in donated funds to be anywhere near viable. Your current $30,000 in revenue for a nonprofit is laughable. I'm a member of a car club with 28 members that shows our cars in events like Hot August Nights in Reno every year and we have more than $30,000 in our club coffers. Do you actually expect anyone to donate the millions of dollars necessary to make the "new and improved" TBF a viable organization?

[Makingsure]

Types of Nonprofits

There are different types of nonprofits, which fall under different sections of the IRS tax code. A foundation differs from a social welfare charity, in that a foundation is a 501c(3). Under section 501c(3) of the tax code contributions are tax deductible, whereas a 501c(4) contributions are not tax deductible, because these organizations engage in legislative lobbying and political campaigns.

Accounting Basics for Nonprofits

A nonprofit produces a statement of financial activities that states the expenses and income of the nonprofit for a certain period. The statement of financial position is a statement that shows the nonprofit's assets, liabilities and change in net assets during the year. Assets are segregated between unrestricted, temporarily restricted and permanently restricted net asset classes. Unrestricted assets have no use restrictions, whereas temporarily restricted assets have a specific purpose and/or time period provision. However, permanently restricted assets must be spent in line with the donor's wishes. In order for a registered 501c(3) to maintain its tax-exempt status, the organization cannot engage in certain political activities and it must retain earned income for the uses specified in its bylaws.

Chances are TBF has already lost its non-profit status. And please, don't insult anyone's intelligence by saying something ridiculous like, "but that was Timmy - not me. Timmy's not here anymore so we don't have to worry about the laws Timmy violated."

An international foundation will need millions and millions of dollars in donated funds to be anywhere near viable. Your current $30,000 in revenue for a nonprofit is laughable. I'm a member of a car club with 28 members that shows our cars in events like Hot August Nights in Reno every year and we have more than $30,000 in our club coffers. Do you actually expect anyone to donate the millions of dollars necessary to make the "new and improved" TBF a viable organization?

agreed.
1; you beat around the bush, bruce, for a week (more) about those numbers and now we see why. the foundation is done, broke, over
2; you expect the community to lend their support (their btc) to a foundation that not only screwed them already but even promotes ponzis (bcs anyone?)   
3; your not willing to do anything the community asks, only to continue what your already doing , which as a community we fell has ALREADY misrepresented us.
flogging a dead horse here bruce, ONLY way to save it is too try claw back some of that gross spending . and u wont do that either.
RIP TBF.

[tomothy]

I may have misunderstood; but are you receiving ~$30k/donations per month? I wasn't sure what the average incoming amount of money is. $30k isn't a substantial amount if it's all you have left and nothing really incoming; but if you have nothing coming in, you could buy mining hardware, hopefully at a discounted price and use that to generate positive cash flow. Sure you'd have to disclose mining income but that money could then be used to manage TBF. If you were buying Antminer S7's you could probably buy about 20 and generate $30 per machine so $600/day before expenses approximately? This would have you bringing in 18k monthly or so right? This is assuming you generate ~$30 in bitcoin daily?

The upside to something like this is TBF actually becomes a part of the Bitcoin network and is contributing hashpower instead of just being a figurehead. You would have the symbolic importance of deciding what chain/fork to mine and what pool. You could then operate a TBF pool where fees are considered donations. I mean you could always see if one of the larger entities would essentially lease equipment to you if that made more sense. But again, it kinda all depends on what monthly incoming cashflow looks like.

[BruceFenton]

rizz

Even if you still add, (due to lack of finance) "provided someone can lead it and do the work involved and/ or support the costs of one."

You dont seem to be reading "provided someone can lead it and do the work involved and/ or support the costs of one."
Also, you dont seem to read, as I am, that general consensus seems to want (or not strongly object to) an audit, (or other independent investigation)
Good starting point, which may afford you some credit to continue TBF.

Analogies are sometimes as useful as a cassette tape pizza covered in bleach.  So I won't delve further into the soup kitchen example other than to say I have a different take.

The line "provided someone can lead it and do the work involved and/ or support the costs of one."

Is exactly what I've said all along.   I'm not clear from your post if you are asking me to say this or want time to say more.  If this is what you want, I fully agree ....I think it was in the OP.

I know some consensus here and on Reddit calls for an audit -- from members I have not seen as much...really only a handful of members who want one and almost none who want one bad enough to volunteer.

It's a lot like the calls for transparency and elections.  Months back I sat down with a large corporate member CEO and proudly exlaimed "We are now fully transparent and have a 100% elected board."

He replied "So what.  How does that help Bitcoin?"

Proving for sure that the losses are as bad as we think I think would be another shoulder shrug.

[tomothy]

District of Columbia
Audit Required: No state law requirement.
Statute and Description: D.C. Code § 29


He replied "So what.  How does that help Bitcoin?"

Honestly, This ^, is really all that matters and is important but it's recognized that not having an audit looks a bit sketchy. However it doesn't necessarily matter. If TBF takes solid steps to show relevancy and has good deliverables who's going to complain about some crap that happened in the past? It's like your on probation for bad behavior but then have a steller month making lots of ripples which leads to an increase in bits and pieces of revenue. Results speak for themselves and if there are none /shrug you look to see what's left BBTC.

[BruceFenton]

Chances are TBF has already lost its non-profit status. And please, don't insult anyone's intelligence by saying something ridiculous like, "but that was Timmy - not me. Timmy's not here anymore so we don't have to worry about the laws Timmy violated."

An international foundation will need millions and millions of dollars in donated funds to be anywhere near viable. Your current $30,000 in revenue for a nonprofit is laughable. I'm a member of a car club with 28 members that shows our cars in events like Hot August Nights in Reno every year and we have more than $30,000 in our club coffers. Do you actually expect anyone to donate the millions of dollars necessary to make the "new and improved" TBF a viable organization?

1) The foundation didn't even have approved non-profit status until after I volunteered.

2). Again you are claiming laws were violated.  What specific laws?  By whom specifically?  What evidence do you have?  Bad decisions and overspending are not against the law.

3). Are you an attorney?  The excerpt above is referring to "earned income" --  I searched for the site you got it from:  http://smallbusiness.chron.com/difference-between-income-revenue-nonprofit-25352.html

Why did you remove the portion above your excerpt that defines what income is?   (Income for non profits is after expenses)

4) Foundation is not a 501c3 anyway it's a 501c6

5) Yep, $30,000 isn't much money - it would be even less had I not donated $10,000 personally last week.  

Not sure if you are expecting me to defend this or something, I'm volunteering to do what I can with what there is.

6) When did I ever say that I was attempting to raise "millions of dollars"?   I'd like to have memberships and donations in the $100,000 range.   I put in $10k, Bobby put in $10k and Brock pledged $10k...so that leaves $70,000 needed to fund all operations and current staff for a full year and also provides enough money to host two DevCore events and still have thousands excess for additional items.

I'd like to get 7 Gold members in the $10,000 category.  In 2014 there were nearly a dozen who paid that or more and total membership revenue was over $300,000.   If the foundation had that or even half of that then they'd have a decent amount extra to explore other projects.

[BruceFenton]

1; you beat around the bush, bruce, for a week (more) about those numbers and now we see why. the foundation is done, broke, over
2; you expect the community to lend their support (their btc) to a foundation that not only screwed them already but even promotes ponzis (bcs anyone?)   
3; your not willing to do anything the community asks, only to continue what your already doing , which as a community we fell has ALREADY misrepresented us.
flogging a dead horse here bruce, ONLY way to save it is too try claw back some of that gross spending . and u wont do that either.

1-  Definitely didn't beat around the bush.  The financials were fully released publicly before this thread ever started.  I then have taken a ton of time to try to answer every question on here.

2-  I only ask people to judge others by actions actually taken by them...not others who they came in to clean up after.   I stand by my own actions.   The corporate documents for Bitcoin Foundation have no ability to do anything....they are just pieces of paper.  Only human beings can take actual actions.

3-  Sure I am.  I spent time releasing lots of data, financials, board minutes because the number one request when I volunteered was transparency.  This audit thing is brand new and I am willing to do it and am discussing it right now here.  I just don't have the time personally to do it alone so if someone wants to volunteer I'll support them.

Claw back what spending?  I've cut costs by 94% from the peak and volunteered for a previously paid job.  Wheat additional do you suggest?

[BruceFenton]

No one is asking you to spend your money. The foundation has $30k, according to your guesstimate. Spend that.
Regarding "what [ I] think a more details audit could reveal":
Needs to happen to discover/discount wrongdoing by previous board members, before any litigation could take place. @-$8k/mo, you barely got enough scratch to last through the winter. You need that money.

The foundation may have liabilities you're not aware of. A thorough audit will bring those to light. Better learn of those now, so this thing could be dissolved gracefully.

Re. "I sat down with a large corporate member CEO [...] He replied "So what.  How does that help Bitcoin?": Who, what company? Sounds like a Danny Brewster type of a CEO.

Well $10k of the 30 was donated by me - so it was my money.  As a donor I want to have the money go to something like DevCore or a WeUseCoins video or an education or communications effort or something else directly and immediately beneficial to Bitcoin.

No, not a Danny Brewster at all, he would not be allowed to be a member. 

From what I've seen the largest members really just want a clear answer to "How do you help Bitcoin and what are you doing?"   We spent a good amount of time for six months on a combination of board conflict, transparency initiatives and discussing things like bylaws.  The most useful thing we did during that time was the DevCore meeting.

What liabilities would the foundation have?  There are accountants, bookeepers etc. remember.  Wouldn't someone have sent an invoice, letters notice, anything in 8 months?

[BruceFenton]

He replied "So what.  How does that help Bitcoin?"

Honestly, This ^, is really all that matters and is important but it's recognized that not having an audit looks a bit sketchy. However it doesn't necessarily matter. If TBF takes solid steps to show relevancy and has good deliverables who's going to complain about some crap that happened in the past? It's like your on probation for bad behavior but then have a steller month making lots of ripples which leads to an increase in bits and pieces of revenue. Results speak for themselves and if there are none /shrug you look to see what's left BBTC.

If people feel it's sketchy that is their right.

What I'm saying is basically this:

Here is the mission statement.  Here are all the board minutes and the details of every single bit of spending I've made or been involved with. Here are the tax returns.  Here is what the foundation is spending, here's what is planned to spend and here is what it's being spent on.  Here is also the previous tax return and a breakdown of how the previous admin went through so much money and here is how I wont repeat those mistakes.... by running a much more lean organization.

If this makes sense we'd love support form last or new members.

If someone replies to this "Not good enough Fenton, I want even more details on the specifics of the bad spending decisions made by the people no longer there."

My reply is "Okay, that is alright and I support that but I don't have personal time for that digging and would rather have my personal money go to things like DevCore, I'll open the books and help anyone who wants to volunteer or pay."

That's the most reasonable thing I can think of.

[QuestionAuthority]

Bruce you really seem to be trying to help so I'll change the focus.

I've already stated that you are in for a rough patch while attempting to gain new members or donation funding but let's say people are going to be willing to open their wallets for TBF once again and you end up with at least $100k a year to operate.

What are you planning on doing to help Bitcoin beyond running an info website? Grassroots campaigning? Mailers? Flyers?

What demographic do you believe will benefit the most from your limited resources?

In what countries and languages will you be actively promoting Bitcoin? Are those countries going to be your primary focus for membership?

Will you attempt to inform and educate political leadership as Andreas has done or will your focus be primarily the end user? Do you see as one of the foundations goals to be educating business interests in the acceptance of Bitcoin?

How many of these limited staff will be actively pursuing these goals and how many will simply be support staff?

Will you have a brick n mortar office? If not, how will you're members be able to reach you? Have you thought about a monthly membership meeting allowing members to join a Skype call to get progress updates and offer suggestions?

As you can see from the questions above you will require far more than a $100k a year to perform even the most rudimentary functions of a foundation promoting a worldwide currency. If you're just looking to run an information website why don't you talk to theymos and see if he can help sponsor a professionally done website with the money you have and get rid of all the unnecessary staff.

[BruceFenton]

>Well $10k of the 30 was donated by me - so it was my money.
Well no, you donated it to the foundation, so it's foundation's money. Where do you suppose the rest of that 30k came from, Santa?

Right.  That's why I said "WAS my money", pretty clear.   Another $10k came from Bobby Lee.  The board and I think the best representation of members is to use funds to keep the organization operating and to focus on things which benefit Bitcoin. As with any non-profit, donors have the right to specify where they wish their donations to go.

>No, not a Danny Brewster
OK, not Brewster. Leaving us with roughly 7 billion people. I asked "Who, what company?"
A direct answer would do.

I don't post private conversations with people on social media, sorry.  He might not want to be quoted, not least of which because of the tendency on here to have things painted in the worst possible light or to jump to incorrect assumptions.  Most importantly, when we spoke it was a private conversation and he was never told or agreed to have that privacy breeched.

Look, I get the desire to see the worst in everyone.  Some trust might also make sense in interactions.  Have I every lied to you or lied about something you know of?  Do I have a reputation for lying?

I'm saying that a prominent Bitcoin CEO said this simple statement.  I also think it represents a lot of members.  If you think I made that up to bolster my point because members really do care about these things but I secretly don't want to do what they care about....then there isn't much I can do on that

>From what I've seen the largest members really just want
As in dues-paying members, as in monthly income? How much do they contribute, in $$$?

Last year it was $300k or so.  I have not fundraised since I joined so incoming revenue since April is only about $10,000


>We spent a good amount of time for six months on
Point? Bragging about spending 6@$8k/mo $48k to accomplish zilch? Nice.

Not bragging. I said a "good amount of time"---- IMHO too much time.

Do you consider spending time on elections, transparency and releasing info was accomplishing "zilch"?  If so, you are exactly proving my point -- transparency was, by far, the number one request from people....and the biggest time drain.   Maybe you were one of those people calling for transparency.

Was it a waste of time?  I think the time could have better been spent elsewhere.  


>What liabilities would the foundation have?
Hell if I know, and, with the cavalier "oh, i doubt they did anything wrong" attitude you have to corporate finance, I doubt you do. That's what audits are for.

Not at all cavalier.  I base the statement that I think there are no unknown liabilities on many, many hours reviewing the finances, the fact that I have absolutely not received any indication from anyone: a collection agency, debtor, law firm, random anonymous tipster....no one at all has even once indicated that there are any outstanding debts to them.   If someone was owned money wouldn't they at least attempt to contact me?  Im not hard to locate.  I have not even heard the slightest speculation of what such debts could be for....and never even had this question until today.  

It's essentially people on BitcoinTalk saying "I randomly speculate that the foundation owes someone money:  not sure, who, not sure, why and not sure for what and I have no evidence whatsoever of this and have never heard anyone claim that they are owned money...but it's my hunch."

If I balance this with many hours of reviewing the books, zero requests for any unpaid debt and other experience and you consider that cavalier then okay.

(Side note, there is one minor outstanding bill for approx $1500 from an overseas law firm which was disputed because I have no evidence that the foundation agreed to pay it or received any services for the bill)

P.S. You mentioned TBF didn't file for nonprofit status til you came on board. Which begs the question... how did it file?

Bitcoin Foundation filed as a self certified 501c6.  The certification came in after I volunteered.  This is a common practice given the time it can take for approvals. Organizations in the US can file under categories that are pending approval provided they comply with the rules of that category.  If they would have been denied that certification then they would have had to re-file the taxes for 2013 and 2014.

[rizzlarolla]

rizz

Even if you still add, (due to lack of finance) "provided someone can lead it and do the work involved and/ or support the costs of one."

You dont seem to be reading "provided someone can lead it and do the work involved and/ or support the costs of one."
Also, you dont seem to read, as I am, that general consensus seems to want (or not strongly object to) an audit, (or other independent investigation)
Good starting point, which may afford you some credit to continue TBF.

Analogies are sometimes as useful as a cassette tape pizza covered in bleach.  So I won't delve further into the soup kitchen example other than to say I have a different take.

The line "provided someone can lead it and do the work involved and/ or support the costs of one."

Is exactly what I've said all along.   I'm not clear from your post if you are asking me to say this or want time to say more.  If this is what you want, I fully agree ....I think it was in the OP.

I know some consensus here and on Reddit calls for an audit -- from members I have not seen as much...really only a handful of members who want one and almost none who want one bad enough to volunteer.

It's a lot like the calls for transparency and elections.  Months back I sat down with a large corporate member CEO and proudly exlaimed "We are now fully transparent and have a 100% elected board."

He replied "So what.  How does that help Bitcoin?"

Proving for sure that the losses are as bad as we think I think would be another shoulder shrug.

Youv'e lost me. you started the analogies . enough already

Ok, now I look again, OP says
"I'm happy to support an audit provided someone can lead it and do the work involved and/ or support the costs of one."

So actually, we are close. (I wish you could stop saying "Dont see what good it can do" in the next sentence, it seem to detract from the sentiment.)

You have had feedback. Now get pro-active, or not.

You are the only person going to move this forward.
I suggested already you reach out to the "ridiculously wasteful and reckless spenders" (ex board) for their personal financial support in this matter.
This is where your SMALL time contribution comes in.

THEY, the "ridiculously wasteful and reckless spenders" need to, and should want to, personally pay for this audit/investigation. (If they are "offered" the chance?)

Step in Bruce Fenton....

[BruceFenton]

Bruce you really seem to be trying to help so I'll change the focus.

>>> Thanks


What are you planning on doing to help Bitcoin beyond running an info website? Grassroots campaigning? Mailers? Flyers?

>>> https://github.com/BruceFenton/bitcoinfoundationplan is the mission, this was put up for comment a couple weeks ago
Once agreed, likely next board meeting in a couple weeks, then we will make a plan to execute.

Emphasis will be placed on lean organization but high impact.


What demographic do you believe will benefit the most from your limited resources?

>>> Main thing is focusing on the three areas from the plan:  1) education, 2) increasing Bitcoin development and 3) working to propose technical alternatives to regulation.

This targets respectively 1) new users, companies, organizations, 2) aspiring developers and people who want to learn more about development 3) advocash groups, partnerships and educating elected officials about the harmful effects of regulation

Demographic that benefits is overall users and companies in Bitcoin who benefit from this mission.


In what countries and languages will you be actively promoting Bitcoin? Are those countries going to be your primary focus for membership?


>>> One difference Bitcoin Foundation has with other industry groups is international focus.  Charles Hoskinson and others have suggested building this more.  I work international so have wanted to link more organizations and MeetUps ever since I volunteered.
There are many organizations in a similar boat to the Bitcoin Foundation - some good volunteers, not much cash etc. partnering is a great idea.


Will you attempt to inform and educate political leadership as Andreas has done or will your focus be primarily the end user? Do you see as one of the foundations goals to be educating business interests in the acceptance of Bitcoin?

>>>
Definitely a core part of the mission is to educate elected officials, not just in the US but globally.


How many of these limited staff will be actively pursuing these goals and how many will simply be support staff?


>>> We need to rely on volunteers and leverage.  Our speakers bureau page has great folks like Roger Ver, Erik Voorhees and Andreas (although a critic of the foundation)

Marco Santori is voluntary Regulatory Affairs, Colin Gallagher in education etc.  with more MeetUps and members who want to do something a lot can be done with little money.



Will you have a brick n mortar office? If not, how will you're members be able to reach you? Have you thought about a monthly membership meeting allowing members to join a Skype call to get progress updates and offer suggestions?

>>> No brick and mortar...I think it's a waste of money for a global digital currency...it's not as if we get foot traffic.  Fancy office just serves for ego of people often.

>>> Monthly Skype calls are an excellent idea.  One thing in the education category I've thought of is hosting a call for members with a special guest like a Linus Torvold or something.  It's very low cost, easy lift yet high impact.

As you can see from the questions above you will require far more than a $100k a year to perform even the most rudimentary functions of a foundation promoting a worldwide currency. If you're just looking to run an information website why don't you talk to theymos and see if he can help sponsor a professionally done website with the money you have and get rid of all the unnecessary staff.


>>> A lot can be done for not too much money.  100k is a benchmark to say "we have one year of runway" and breathing room to do more cool things.   It would be great to raise a lot more and we can determine best use at that point.   I'm different than the other people who were involved -- I'm frugal and think that even with $10 million I would not be spending $700k on a conference or getting a fancy London office.

[QuestionAuthority]

Those are all lofty goals but I still think you have caviar tastes on a pizza budget. If you can pull it off more power to you (ha ha, I just realized that's one of the things I'm worried about - power concentration).

At least you shouldn't be capable of squandering millions in donated funds with no more than I see you capable of collecting. Bitcoin is about money not a free operating system for the underpriviledged or feeding the homeless. Greed, avarice, crime, status, power and competition revolve around money and have always been a part of Bitcoin. I would love to believe you and those you surround yourself with only have the most altruistic motivations in your heart but I seriously doubt it. Good luck to you.

[BruceFenton]

I have no desire to see the worst in everyone. On the other hand, when dealing with The Bitcoin Foundation, in light of its past history, it would be pretty foolish to do anything but.

Judge actual people versus a piece of paper - that's all I ask


Last year it was $300k or so.  I have not fundraised since I joined so incoming revenue since April is only about $10,000

<<<. I don't understand. Are we talking ex-members? What made you put an end to fundraising? Are you planning to start again? When?

In 2014 it was 300k revenue from memberships.

I haven't done new fundraising for a few reasons:
- I wanted a compelling case that I felt was worth putting my own money into.
- I wanted to get costs lowered and old obligations cleaned up
- we had some board turmoil and unclear mission
- I was also in a major car accident and pressed for time with other obligations


I only consider working towards transparency a waste of time when it nets no transparency, as is the case here. In other words, I consider thumb-twiddling and calling it "transparency" a waste of time.
Where's the product?

Not sure what you mean by transparency that I haven't done.  Since I volunteered I've had all the tax returns released, monthly financials on all spending and all board minutes released.   I've also tried hard to be available to answer any questions, provide anything people ask for that is possible in the time I have.

What else would you like to see?


After spending "many hours of reviewing the books," there's no product. Claiming to work towards financial transparency without publishing an independent audit report is meaningless.

This is talking about two different things.  I was responding to the question about unknown debts someone speculated that the foundation has.  Just think about this for a second:  why would an organization need an audit to prove that it doesn't have debts that no one is asking about and no one is claiming are owed to them?



Bitcoin Foundation filed as a self certified 501c6.  The certification came in after I volunteered.  This is a common practice given the time it can take for approvals. Organizations in the US can file under categories that are pending approval provided they comply with the rules of that category.  If they would have been denied that certification then they would have had to re-file the taxes for 2013 and 2014.

I didn't make myself clear: You filed as self-certified 501c6. Up to this point, what was The Bitcoin Foundation's status? Was it a shoebox operation?

I explained it above - they filed as a 501c6 but the certification came after I volunteered.  This is not only common it's the way that almost every new non-profit files.  If non-profits waited for the certification in some cases it can take 2-3 years to get a reply.  New Hampshire Free State Project has waited something like 6 years for example.

Some organization types are approved quickly.  Bitcoin Foundation is approved to do lobbying and is a trade group - so that, as well as having the word "Bitcoin" in the name took a while for them to get approved.  Churches and others can take many years and they typically file as the applied organization type.

[BruceFenton]

Those are all lofty goals but I still think you have caviar tastes on a pizza budget. If you can pull it off more power to you (ha ha, I just realized that's one of the things I'm worried about - power concentration).

 Good luck to you.

In the early days the Bitcoin Foundation tried to be all things to all people and expectations were set very high, yet we're very disappointing.

Right now it's a dozen guys and a couple girls who are volunteering free time to help Bitcoin:  some educational materials,  a couple nice, high quality events, some member calls, communications as well as some public speaking and outreach to elected officials...that's it. 

The bar is pretty low.  If we can avoid being associated with people who steal or go to jail.  The spending I approve is extremely low and reasonable and we do some helpful things then that's a small victory hopefully.

Step one is to have less people hate the current team because of the actions of the past team.  Step two is for people to say "hmm, that DevCore event, paper, conference call or letter to the member of Parliment was good for Bitcoin"

Not trying to change the world...just make some lemonade from lemons and clean up an organization with some black marks.

That's all.

The goal today isn't to do some crazy lofty thing...I think it's more like delicious pizza on a cheap pizza budget. 

[bargainbin]

Mining is an industry.
Payment processors are an industry.
Gambling is an industry.
Even whoring is an industry.
But not Bitcoin.

Bitcoin is not an industry. It's still A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System. No thanks, may I add, to douches like you.

Lots of people disagree & would call the miners, exchanges, wallets etc part of the same industry.

But either way -- let's say you are right, there is no such thing as the Bitcoin industry -- you must have some term you use to describe industry conferences, events, meetings, this board etc.

But even if not--   Fact is that there are now and will be groups in this ...space...whatever you want to call it.

Those groups exist, they are here and they are not going anywhere.

You can support CoinCenter or DCC or Bitcoin Foundation or Bitcoin Association or whatever -- or none.   But they will be doing whatever activity they focus on:  asking for more Bitcoin laws, fighting against more Bitcoin laws, holding events, speaking to the press etc. whether you participate or not.

Seems sensible to align with a group whose mission you support.

So let me get you straight: you are rebooting The Bitcoin Foundation because you can't get along with CoinCenter, another bitcoin foundation?
And isn't the Bitcoin Association already you?
How is it that you fail to see that The Bitcoin Foundation has nothing to do with representing Bitcoin as a whole, when your explicit purpose is to counter the other Bitcoin foundations?

[Gleb Gamow]

Chances are TBF has already lost its non-profit status. And please, don't insult anyone's intelligence by saying something ridiculous like, "but that was Timmy - not me. Timmy's not here anymore so we don't have to worry about the laws Timmy violated."

An international foundation will need millions and millions of dollars in donated funds to be anywhere near viable. Your current $30,000 in revenue for a nonprofit is laughable. I'm a member of a car club with 28 members that shows our cars in events like Hot August Nights in Reno every year and we have more than $30,000 in our club coffers. Do you actually expect anyone to donate the millions of dollars necessary to make the "new and improved" TBF a viable organization?

1) The foundation didn't even have approved non-profit status until after I volunteered.

2). Again you are claiming laws were violated.  What specific laws?  By whom specifically?  What evidence do you have?  Bad decisions and overspending are not against the law.

3). Are you an attorney?  The excerpt above is referring to "earned income" --  I searched for the site you got it from:  http://smallbusiness.chron.com/difference-between-income-revenue-nonprofit-25352.html

Why did you remove the portion above your excerpt that defines what income is?   (Income for non profits is after expenses)

4) Foundation is not a 501c3 anyway it's a 501c6

5) Yep, $30,000 isn't much money - it would be even less had I not donated $10,000 personally last week.  

Not sure if you are expecting me to defend this or something, I'm volunteering to do what I can with what there is.

6) When did I ever say that I was attempting to raise "millions of dollars"?   I'd like to have memberships and donations in the $100,000 range.   I put in $10k, Bobby put in $10k and Brock pledged $10k...so that leaves $70,000 needed to fund all operations and current staff for a full year and also provides enough money to host two DevCore events and still have thousands excess for additional items.

I'd like to get 7 Gold members in the $10,000 category.  In 2014 there were nearly a dozen who paid that or more and total membership revenue was over $300,000.   If the foundation had that or even half of that then they'd have a decent amount extra to explore other projects.

Seems reasonable.

For others up to an exploratory as to what a 501c6 consists of: https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-tege/eotopick03.pdf