Bitcoin Foundation: Where on Earth Did all the Money Go?

[bargainbin]

Bitcoin needs a Foundation much less than Gay Aardvarks do, which is to say not at all. It's what's called "de·cen·tral·ized." That means it does fine without a central Prom Committee, doesn't need one. Not even a good one, much less a shitty one with a long criminal history, which is what this thread is about.

If you want to start one, you're free to try, but don't hijack this thread. K?

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

As I've mentioned, ThePolicyCounsil.com was never a working website (was even for sale in 2014, as I've depicted) nor can I find incorp docs of ThePolicyCounsil.com INC which was paid the aforementioned amount.

Again, no idea what you are accusing.

Is the accusation that Jim didn't have a website?  That he was paid as reported?  Do you think he was paid differently than what was reported?  What?  I said I'm glad to seek justice for any illegal act....but I don't even see what you are accusing.

Try the format:

I accuse _____ of _____ (crime/ bad act) based on ______ evidence."   This might encourage some basic critical thinking.

I accuse you and Brock Pierce of mincing about with the dead body of The Bitcoin Foundation a la Weekend at Bernie's. There, I said it.

Oh, fuck! Dude played the Weekend at Bernie's Card. Now you got Bruce reevaluating his card holdings in hope of trumping your unexpected play. This could get interesting.

The weekend's over boys. You had your fun.

[BruceFenton]

Bitcoin needs a Foundation much less than Gay Aardvarks do, which is to say not at all. It's what's called "de·cen·tral·ized." That means it does fine without a central Prom Committee, doesn't need one. Not even a good one, much less a shitty one with a long criminal history, which is what this thread is about.

If you want to start one, you're free to try, but don't hijack this thread. K?

That's an old argument in Bitcoin -- but it just doesn't hold water.

Just because the technology of Bitcoin is decentralized doesn't mean that it can't benefit from structures which have worked for many years.  Linux Foundation, Mozilla Foundation etc. etc.

Bitcoin is not even primarily a tool of corporate governance- it's a pretty tertiary feature that isn't even really operational yet.

We could say this about anything: "Bitcoin doesn't need corporations, down with corporations."  "Bitcoin developers don't need websites, the longest block is all that matters."  "Bitcoin doesn't need Github...."  "Bitcoin doesn't need MeetUps or conferences."

etc. 

It's silly.

In the real world there are industry groups.  It's a reality of the world we live in.  Bitcoin may and hopefully will change that world ...starting with currency, the way money is transferred then other things....eventually tech related to Bitcoin may cause rise to more crowdfunding and other alternatives to centralized organizations....but that's just not the case yet. 

It's also not a zero sum game-- it's not as if there was no Bitcoin Foundation there would no no industry groups....they'd simply be replaced by the many other industry groups.  Which BY THE WAY it's worth noting IMHO generally are at odds with the majority opinion of people on this board, community and Bitcoin users.

I'd even say that, the team and mission we have now is more in line with this board and the over all Bitcoin dedicated user base than most of the other groups.  Take a poll:  who supported Bitlicense?   Who supports the CoinCenter alliance with the DHS, FBI, TSA to help "catch bad guys"?   I warned about Ben Lawsky when most of the industry was fawning over him -- I called him out publicly and was one of his most vocal critics.  I stood with the EFF against CoinCenter and their desire to pass the new California Bitcoin bill (we and EFF won, the bill was defeated).   

The current mission calls for advocacy, education, increasing activity in Bitcoin development, communications and standing against destructive regulations.

If you don't like those things, that's fine....but it's crazy to think that by wishing for Bitcoin Foundation to fail that Bitcoin will somehow be the first industry to have no industry groups.

[QuestionAuthority]

This "save the TBF" campaign is really a losing proposition anyway. The original TBF group were all respected and admired almost to the point of adoration. The group of potential "members" we're gleaned from a forum full of early miners that had plenty of Bitcoin to throw around so asking for 25 coins each was like bumming a cigarette. TBF made its money holding till the jump in price. We all had btc to throw at causes. It's a different animal today. I've lost so many bitcoins to failed experiments and crooks that it almost makes me want to cry thinking about it. I can't mine enough to return even a fraction of what I've lost or invested. I wouldn't give 25 btc to anyone for anything at this point. Promoting any new org here is going to fall on broke deaf ears. The business members know they don't need it to succeed so good luck on your future funding efforts. I doubt you'll have any luck finding another MtGox with thousands of stolen btc to buy an expensive membership. Regardless of your good intentions, TBF is gone.

[bargainbin]

...
If you don't like those things, that's fine....but it's crazy to think that by wishing for Bitcoin Foundation to fail that Bitcoin will somehow be the first industry to have no industry groups.

Mining is an industry.
Payment processors are an industry.
Gambling is an industry.
Even whoring is an industry.
But not Bitcoin.

Bitcoin is not an industry. It's still A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System. No thanks, may I add, to douches like you.

In the real world there are industry groups.  It's a reality of the world we live in.

ORLY? OK, I got unpleasant news for you too: IRL, gentlemen such as yourself are often handed the crown. Almost inevitably tho, it happens after the place's been raped, thoroughly pillaged, with villagers already gathering at the gates.
Need I mention said villages didn't come on over to make friends?

[Makingsure]

im all for people trying to find justice or audit 2014-2015 accounts..

but as separate issues and doing both at the same time.. cant we start something fresh and get the ball rolling with more idea's of what we would like to see and how things should happenfor 2016 that are positive things for bitcoin

there is no point wasting weeks arguing about the past and waiting months for answers.. before then wasting more time doing nothing until the dust settles...
we should be actively looking forward while also looking into the past..

lets do more then just moan about the past. lets moan about the past AND work towards the future

in short 3 birds one stone..

what do you want bruce to say? the "plan" for 2016? find a way to pay these people they still owe off the books (for what we havent even been told or how much a week later)    TRANSPARANCY?

[Bitcoinpro]

Franks attemps to try to provide some kind of obscure side support is hilarious

he is part of this scam, no knowledgeable Bitcoin supporter in their right mind

would support continuation of the company under the same name.

[Gleb Gamow]

Bruce, I'd like you to understand and embrace the pseudonymous nature of Bitcoin and this forum. If I wanted my colleagues and family to learn of my gay aardvarkishness, i would have stuck with legacy finance.

That said, the account is far from new. Observe:

Gentlemen!

The Sound Money is on The Gay Aardvark Foundation because:

1. Our name, gentlemen.
Does not evoke peals of rollicking laughter each time it's mentioned. Here in the US, or abroad.
Unlike our Bitcoin counterpart.

2. Squeaky-clean credit: Zero outstanding debts

3. No history of wasting your money:
We have spent exactly 0 (zero) BTC on [gay underage] hookers & blow. Unlike you-know-who.

4. No skeletons in the closet:
None of our board members have been convicted of stealing or laundering money and/or doing Federal time. We didn't even have to pay multimillion-dollar civil settlement to underage minors. We're just lucky that way.

5. We're aardvarks. Bitcoin Foundation has no excuse.

Bonus: Our Chief Scientist seat is not filled, your chance to be a Chief Scientist. Girls love Chief Scientists.
Our membership gifs are way cool too.

All else stacks up pretty evenly.
Let's work to establish a clear list of goals, gentlemen.
Together!

Some of my best friends are gay aardvarks. But why on Earth would they need a foundation? I'm puzzled...

Damn you guys! I missed the whole "gay aardvark" episode while it was going live. If I were here, I'm sure I could've source at least one pic off the Internet depicting male aardvarks enjoying a hot tub. 

[Gleb Gamow]

^Some of my best friends are Bitcoiners. And frankly, I'm just as puzzled as you are, but about that other foundation. I mean, for one, we aardvarks have no ideological beefs with centralized governance, we're not even that gay, to be honest.
*OK, sorry, in the interest of total transparency: we're really really gay.

@Bruce:
Hello Bruce!
How about we allow the people decide which foundation is more worthy of of their support, yours or The Gay Aardvarks'?
I'm more than willing to engage you in public debate.

I'll be at the Miami Bitcoin Conference -- happy to discuss during Q&A.   

Hey, Bruce, wouldn't it be funny if the very first question is along the lines: Bruce, did you or did you not associate with pedophile aardvarks? After a slight pause, all the monitors show a Photoshop image (unless you have a real pic) of you in a hot tub surrounded by happy aardvarks, keeping the image up the entire time during the Q&A.

<I think I wet my pants while penning this post>

[Gleb Gamow]

i think the reason why the bitcoin foundation brand should not be dropped is simple.

it has already been awarded non-profit status by the IRS.
this alone normally takes along time, resources and funding to attain that tax category. and although i would love to see a totally new brand heading the way forward to help EVERYONE do ANYTHING blockchain/bitcoin related, its clear that its easier to re-organize an existing  brand than to start right from the beginning with months or headache and paperwork

Good point.

[rizzlarolla]

blah blah blah

endless slagging match and endless naming calling about people that are not in the company anymore

endless slagging match and complaining about what the old company didnt do, but should of

endless slagging match about something that cant be undone ..

blah blah blah

boring boring boring..

blah blah blah

ok so i have summed up the 20 pages of this thread..
im moving on and looking forwards
enjoy months of arguing about things you cant and dont want to change

Bruce (added)

In this case we already know what happened: a bunch of money was spend and Bitcoin value dropped - the money is gone and so are the people who made those decisions.   I don't think an audit would uncover new info.

rizz

Can you/TBF not focus on Bitcoin/moving TBF forward in conjunction with an audit? I don't really see much crossover.
Edit. Indeed, Would an audit not give some "credibility" to carry on?

Frankie

do you have some positive idea's about something that helps the future, while simultaneously looking at the past aswell

Very much the same thing? (also my edit line)

I think it somewhat unfortunate Bruce started this thread as "Where on earth did all the money go?" ...
Then expect not to get a (negative) reaction on that subject.
Bruces answer to that question? Ridiculously wasteful and reckless spending, (and other things) forget it now, move on. (open to interpretation of course)

Also,Bruces engagement with some posters seemed completely unstructured. He seemed easily drawn into pointless repetative reactionary posting.
(trying not to take sides here, but what did he expect to happen?)

So, to help facilitate moving forward, Bruce needs to structure his debating technique maybe?

[tomothy]

i think the reason why the bitcoin foundation brand should not be dropped is simple.

it has already been awarded non-profit status by the IRS.
this alone normally takes along time, resources and funding to attain that tax category. and although i would love to see a totally new brand heading the way forward to help EVERYONE do ANYTHING blockchain/bitcoin related, its clear that its easier to re-organize an existing  brand than to start right from the beginning with months or headache and paperwork

Good point.

The non-profit status is of significant relevance as it essentially has value due to the time it can otherwise take to actually be recognized and accepted by the IRS.

Bruce, I saw a post of yours very recently, possibly in a thread concerning 'bitcoin classic,' the thread seemed to vanish but if I recall correctly, you had been suggesting that the interactions between the various opposing block-size camps could come across as disingenuous, and could put more effort in working together? I thought it was a well thought out post at the time; can't find it now but c'est la vie. However, I digress...

With regards to the audit, people will always bitch and moan about an audit not having taken place which leaves a specter of uncertainty shrouding TBF. It's stupid. It's fairly evident to see that the money's gone but that won't be an acceptable answer to contrarians. I don't know if you could put out a request or something similar for audit services but it could address the underlying cost of an audit. I'm not sure if that is something a company might want to do on behalf of TBF to then deduct as some sort of a tax break. Something similar could apply to ongoing legal fees/advice. That way you could satisfy the naysayers without throwing good money after bad... literally lol...

I thought your reddit post was good, I think group/joint letters from TBF could be even better. We know other companies are involved with blockchain technology which may or may not include bitcoin. Although you can start to get into issues with trade secrets and the like, it would be interesting to see the thought processes of those groups involved and what sort of synergy is possible. I.e. Microsoft bitcoin/ethereum/blockchain, Overstock with T0, then the whole Rc3 or R3 consortium.

Ultimately I think the actions TBF decides to take moving forward in the future will help it distance itself from any perception of a corrupted past. I.e., showing that TBF is relevant, besides just hosting a conference, is a good step in the right direction at restoring confidence in TBF.

TLDR: TBF is only relevant to the extent TBF makes itself relevant.

Just my .02btc

[rizzlarolla]

rizz

On a personal level thats fine,
But as BF chair, or whatever, I would like to see your default position as - wanting an audit for transparency-
Even if you still add, (due to lack of finance) "provided someone can lead it and do the work involved and/ or support the costs of one."

tomothy

With regards to the audit, people will always bitch and moan about an audit not having taken place which leaves a specter of uncertainty shrouding TBF. It's stupid. It's fairly evident to see that the money's gone but that won't be an acceptable answer to contrarians. I don't know if you could put out a request or something similar for audit services but it could address the underlying cost of an audit. I'm not sure if that is something a company might want to do on behalf of TBF to then deduct as some sort of a tax break. Something similar could apply to ongoing legal fees/advice. That way you could satisfy the naysayers without throwing good money after bad... literally lol...

Same thing again?

Bruce

I won't stand in the way of anyone who wants to do one.  I personally would rather focus on things more directly beneficial to Bitcoin

Do you see, he cant/wont accept that very first basic, albeit ridiculous waste of time, principle?

[BruceFenton]

what do you want bruce to say? the "plan" for 2016? find a way to pay these people they still owe off the books (for what we havent even been told or how much a week later)    TRANSPARANCY?

I know transparency was a problem with past admins.

The day I volunteered and had access I tweeted the financials.

Since then I've had the tax returns, financials and board minutes of every meeting released.  I resea chef best practices of transparency in non-profits and have worked to exceed every one.

If there is any item that you think should be released that isn't, please let me know.

[Gyrsur]

@BruceFenton: if you want to do a usefull thing start to work on specifications for Bitcoin or please organize it within TBF. that is neccesarry and would have a real value.

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1326346.msg13539701#msg13539701

[BruceFenton]

Mining is an industry.
Payment processors are an industry.
Gambling is an industry.
Even whoring is an industry.
But not Bitcoin.

Bitcoin is not an industry. It's still A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System. No thanks, may I add, to douches like you.

Lots of people disagree & would call the miners, exchanges, wallets etc part of the same industry.

But either way -- let's say you are right, there is no such thing as the Bitcoin industry -- you must have some term you use to describe industry conferences, events, meetings, this board etc.

But even if not--   Fact is that there are now and will be groups in this ...space...whatever you want to call it.

Those groups exist, they are here and they are not going anywhere.

You can support CoinCenter or DCC or Bitcoin Foundation or Bitcoin Association or whatever -- or none.   But they will be doing whatever activity they focus on:  asking for more Bitcoin laws, fighting against more Bitcoin laws, holding events, speaking to the press etc. whether you participate or not.

Seems sensible to align with a group whose mission you support.

[Gyrsur]

Mining is an industry.
Payment processors are an industry.
Gambling is an industry.
Even whoring is an industry.
But not Bitcoin.

Bitcoin is not an industry. It's still A Peer-to-Peer Electronic Cash System. No thanks, may I add, to douches like you.

Lots of people disagree & would call the miners, exchanges, wallets etc part of the same industry.

But either way -- let's say you are right, there is no such thing as the Bitcoin industry -- you must have some term you use to describe industry conferences, events, meetings, this board etc.

But even if not--   Fact is that there are now and will be groups in this ...space...whatever you want to call it.

Those groups exist, they are here and they are not going anywhere.

You can support CoinCenter or DCC or Bitcoin Foundation or Bitcoin Association or whatever -- or none.   But they will be doing whatever activity they focus on:  asking for more Bitcoin laws, fighting against more Bitcoin laws, holding events, speaking to the press etc. whether you participate or not.

Seems sensible to align with a group whose mission you support.

my impression is you have too much time to spend!

[BruceFenton]

ok so i have summed up the 20 pages of this thread..
im moving on and looking forwards
enjoy months of arguing about things you cant and dont want to change

Frank makes a good point.

When I hosted the Dubai Bitcoin Conference people mostly
1) ignored it
2) attended
3) supported it and hoped it would do well
or, a few rare cases 4) hoped it would fail

#4 was pretty rare.

I'd encourage people to look at the mission and current team.

If we all forgot about the Bitcoin Foundation for a minute and I posted a post that said:

"Hey everyone, me, Bobby Lee, Vinny Lingham and a dozen other volunteers are getting together to do a few non-profit learning conferences with too developers, work to keep Bitcoin as regulation free as possible and to increase communication and education, Bobby and I each donated $10k to this and we've got several major Bitcoin individuals and companies who support the idea."

What would people say?  "Cool, hope you do well" or "Screw you you filthy dirty Nazi scumbag I hope you die, how dare you volunteer to do this?"

That's all the Bitcoin Foundation is at this point: a group of volunteers, two part time employees ans a network of members.

Yep -- it had a crappy past.   That sucks.  I wish it was different -- but I didn't have a damn thing to do with it...it is what it is and I can't change it.   My choice is to either shut it down or move forward.   There's a vocal social media community of people who hate the organization ...I get it.  There is also a large community of members and volunteers - there's a 52k fan Twitter page, high traffic website, forum etc.  What right do I have to destroy all that?  Is it better if it was gone?

We decided that it's better to move forward and try to use the org to help Bitcoin than not.  8/10 of the past highest voted candidates from the last 4 elections think that this is what the members want, I agree.

It's here, it's not going to die today or tomorrow or next month or the month after.

Consistently the concern now is reputation.  Got it.  Reputation can change...especially if systems change and the team changes.  The history is done.   We can write the next chapter in the future.  1-2 years from now we can say, Bitcoin had something that was broke and we fixed it.

Help the foundation make lemonade from lemons.

[Makingsure]

what do you want bruce to say? the "plan" for 2016? find a way to pay these people they still owe off the books (for what we havent even been told or how much a week later)    TRANSPARANCY?

I know transparency was a problem with past admins.

The day I volunteered and had access I tweeted the financials.

Since then I've had the tax returns, financials and board minutes of every meeting released.  I resea chef best practices of transparency in non-profits and have worked to exceed every one.

If there is any item that you think should be released that isn't, please let me know.

arg this is the problem with you, you continue to beat around the bush, wont str8 answer anything, i will never again support TBF, mainly cause of you now, so ty.
HOW MUCH DOES TBF HAVE IN LIABILITIES?
HOW DO THEY OWE STILL "UNOFFICIALLY"
FOR WHAT?
cause to me it may be cheaper to wipe this thing i feel once the truth comes out an audit will show around 3-10 million of liabilities no doubt.

total scam, and honestly the non proffit status is just too tempting in btc, i mean cmon bitcoin plus non-profit dont really go together do they? whoever runs the TBF will always use it for personal gain plain and simple  

[BruceFenton]

Bitcoin can't be killed by regulation and it doesn't need missionaries.

How do you expect to fund these projects?

Maybe can't be killed but sure as hell can be harmed:

Extreme case:
Tomorrow ISIS has a 9-11 scale attack on the US.
Funding is provably traced to Bitcoin or even just strongly accused.
Jamie Dimon's favorite Senator issues a bill called "The Protection of American Freedoms and Combating the Funding of Terrorism" bill declaring ownership of Bitcoin to be a felony in the US with a five year prison sentence and websites discussing Bitcoin are aiding a criminal act
The EU and China follow on with a similar law at the request of the US Stste Dept.

You don't think that kills Bitcoin as we know it?



Less extreme example:

CoinCenter was pushing for a new Bitcoin law in California.  We stood with the EFF against it and the law was defeated.
Would it have killed Bitcoin?  Nah.  But I think preventing it helped.


As for how to fund the mission--   So far, we specifically picked things that don't cost much but have a high impact.  The DevCore San Jose meeting for example only had a net cost of a couple thousand bucks and with more sponsors could have actually made a profit.   Having a speakers bureau, press matching service etc. are free / very low cost.