ToominCoin aka "Bitcoin_Classic" #R3KT

[Lauda]

Think of it as an extra traffic lane on a bridge. Sometimes there's no traffic, and the bridge is empty.

Let's build a bridge 10 times bigger than necessary, because why not?

And what, exactly, would motivate these spammers? Don't miners have the option of ignoring transactions, for any and all reasons?

Blocks tend to be full of spam. What motivated the "stress-tests" that we had in the past?

Here it is: https://live.blockcypher.com/btc/block/000000000000000006e35d6675fb0fec767a5f3b346261a5160f6e2a8d258070/
Also: https://coin.dance/blocks

Se the last 1000 block chart.

It seems that it was mined on P2Pool.

[franky1]

Think of it as an extra traffic lane on a bridge. Sometimes there's no traffic, and the bridge is empty.

Let's build a bridge 10 times bigger than necessary, because why not?

10 lanes??
where is this 10mb proposal.. oh wait its your doomsday imagination..

try living in todays reality of 2 lane proposal

[watashi-kokoto]

Big blocks is not like large bridge but like building 10 toilets now for everybody. so when you will have 8 kids in the future each one can have its own toilet

[franky1]

Big blocks is not like large bridge but like building 10 toilets now for everybody. so when you will have 8 kids in the future each one can have its own toilet

translation.
imagining 0.1btc =10 toilets..
in 2013 the restaurant only maintained and allows customers to use 5 of those toilets.. even today some restaurants only allow 2 of the 10 toilets to be used, and some restaurants allow 9-10 toilets to be used. because it takes soo much effort to maintain and clean the toilets every 10 minutes. that miners decide how much effort they put into it. as it can cost them if they waste too much effort and not make profit at the same time.

so now restaurants want to build another 10 toilets.. not to have all 20 toilets used constantly.. but so that if needed and they know they can manage it and make a profit. open up the 11th toilet for regular use.. then months later the 12th toilet.. then months later the 13th toilet..

eg 1.1mb,, 1.2mb,, 1.3mb...
not 0.9mb->1.99mb instantly

[bargainbin]

Think of it as an extra traffic lane on a bridge. Sometimes there's no traffic, and the bridge is empty.

Let's build a bridge 10 times bigger than necessary, because why not?

That implies that our oxcart bridge can handle x10 traffic. And yet...

... Last 4 blocks are full. 398392 is only not full because it got mined just 3 minutes after the previous. ...

Explain this shit.

And what, exactly, would motivate these spammers? Don't miners have the option of ignoring transactions, for any and all reasons?

Blocks tend to be full of spam. What motivated the "stress-tests" that we had in the past?

You answered your own question -- stress tests, proof-of-concept, to get the devs off their complacent butts and actually *upgrade this fucking thing so it's not teetering on the edge anymore.*
Or are you suggesting that it's done for luls, and our antifragile currency could be brought to its knees by any kid willing to throw ~30 bucks every ten mins at it?

Big blocks is not like large bridge but like building 10 toilets now for everybody. so when you will have 8 kids in the future each one can have its own toilet

Ate plenty of wall candy when you were a kid, didn't you?

[watashi-kokoto]

current bitcoin is like 2000 toilets for whole world

so we have 2000 toilets and everybody needs 10 minutes every day so we can serve 288 000 citizens that's a lot.

but there are spammers who just pay small fee, lock the toilet from inside and climb out to cause inconvenience.

but when you need to go urgently you can use ethereum (shit outside) it's not as secure everyone sees your naked butt but when the you need the capacity and all toilets are full so you take a shit outside.

[franky1]

current bitcoin is like 2000 toilets for whole world

so we have 2000 toilets and everybody needs 10 minutes every day so we can serve 288 000 citizens that's a lot.

but there are spammers who just pay small fee, lock the toilet from inside and climb out to cause inconvenience.

the toilet door automatically opens up every 10 minutes, so the spammer needs to pay the fee and lock the 2000 doors again.
it doesnt take much for someone to recognize the prankster and put him at the back of the line and hope he drops off after waiting 48 hours. after all miners already have code to make no fee payers wait. so noticing 1 prankster trying to bribe the restaurant to lock 2000 toilets in one go is easy to spot.

but im glad you see why people are skeptical about sidechains and using alts, and why people prefer the potential of more indoor toilets

but when you need to go urgently you can use ethereum (shit outside) it's not as secure everyone sees your naked butt but when the you need the capacity and all toilets are full so you take a shit outside.

[bargainbin]

current bitcoin is like 2000 toilets for whole world

so we have 2000 toilets and everybody needs 10 minutes every day so we can serve 288 000 citizens that's a lot.

but there are spammers who just pay small fee, lock the toilet from inside and climb out to cause inconvenience.

the toilet door automatically opens up every 10 minutes, so the spammer needs to pay the fee and lock the 2000 doors again.
...

The problem with the terlit analogy is this: You don't solve the prankster problem by only having one toilet in your mega-restaurant & having your customers try to outbid each other to take a dump. Because that's retarded. People will be shitting themselves while standing in line, the smell would be awful.
No self-respecting human being'll ever come to your restaurant, ever

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

This is a fun game. What if the toilet's on a plane?

[watashi-kokoto]

The problem with the terlit analogy is this: You don't solve the prankster problem by only having one toilet in your mega-restaurant & having your customers try to outbid each other to take a dump. Because that's retarded. People will be shitting themselves while standing in line, the smell would be awful.
No self-respecting human being'll ever come to your restaurant, ever

well Bitcoin is like the secure public toilets. of course everyone has fiat cash at home so bitcoin doesn't care about instant, supporting world commerce - fiat cash or gold allows this easily.

The spammer problem is like people who pretend they shit. We installed shit sensors but they keep flushing dirt and when we knock on the door they cry occupied.

[watashi-kokoto]

when we raise the block size (build more toilets) they simply call more fake shitters and fill every booth again

[BlindMayorBitcorn]

when we raise the block size (build more toilets) they simply call more fake shitters and fill every booth again

Fake shitters. Champagne problems.

[bargainbin]

The problem with the terlit analogy is this: You don't solve the prankster problem by only having one toilet in your mega-restaurant & having your customers try to outbid each other to take a dump. Because that's retarded. People will be shitting themselves while standing in line, the smell would be awful.
No self-respecting human being'll ever come to your restaurant, ever

well Bitcoin is like the secure public toilets. of course everyone has fiat cash at home so bitcoin doesn't care about instant, supporting world commerce - fiat cash or gold allows this easily.

So Bitcoin = secure public toilet. For everything else, there's cash & gold.
Thanks for setting me straight

The spammer problem is like people who pretend they shit. We installed shit sensors but they keep flushing dirt and when we knock on the door they cry occupied.

Have you considered making fake-shitting in your toilet less attractive? Like maybe charging a higher admission to your toilets? (tho I admit, most people would sell their moms for a chance to sit in a toilet stall & fake-shit, so the price might have to be astronomical...)

[franky1]

Have you considered making fake-shitting in your toilet less attractive? Like maybe charging a higher admission to your toilets? (tho I admit, most people would sell their moms for a chance to sit in a toilet stall & fake-shit, so the price might have to be astronomical...)

it already costs $80 to fill 2000 toilets. which is $0.04c per toilet.. the solution is not to charge $0.08c in the hope a prankster cant afford $160 every 10 minutes.
because that just irritates the other customers..


but allowing for a potential 4000 toilets at $0.04c and hope the prankster cant afford $160 every 10 minutes, doesnt irritate the customers but can cost a prankster more.

infact. with a 2mb+segwit. theres a potential of maybe 8000 toilets. which would cost the prankster $320 every 10 minutes.

[watashi-kokoto]

ok let's say there is 10% spam. this means 1800 real transactions and 200 spam. the fees are now for example 0.00014514
so rich spammer paid for example 0.029 per block
after 2MB instantly there will still be 1800 real but 2200 spam. but spammer will pay only 0.029  again. this means the spam fee will drop to 0.000013195

So instantly after doubling the minimal fee for real users becomes very small.

Only after a while the real users will discover that fees are so small that they can send much more payments to some shitty services like satoshi dice. Basically some real users will become spammers.

If we could raise block to infinity fees would be zero forever because there is no point paying fees. This way we get infinite spam 1GB block = 1GB of spam etc.

[franky1]

ok let's say there is 10% spam. this means 1800 real transactions and 200 spam. the fees are now for example 0.00014514
so rich spammer paid for example 0.029 per block
after 2MB instantly there will still be 1800 real but 2200 spam. but spammer will pay only 0.029  again. this means the spam fee will drop to 0.000013195

So instantly after doubling the minimal fee for real users becomes very small.

Only after a while the real users will discover that fees are so small that they can send much more payments to some shitty services like satoshi dice. Basically some real users will become spammers.

If we could raise block to infinity fees would be zero forever because there is no point paying fees. This way we get infinite spam 1GB block = 1GB of spam etc.

instantly ?? um no..

after the 2mb triggers (a bit of time has passed for miners to finally desice to push forward eg 90% a safer bet to not risk orphans)
there would be 1800 real and 201 spam .. or 1801 real and 200 spam (1 transaction more while miners dip toe in the water)
later
there would be 1800 real and 202 spam .. or 1802 real and 200 spam (2 transaction more)
blah blah blah months, years later
there would be 1800 real and 2200 spam .. or 3800 real and 200 spam

sidenote: dipping toe in the water, inslow increments not only protects miners and allows them to access processing and propogation time of slightly larger blocks. and only add little more when they find its a safe risk that they wont end p being second place each time.. but it also keeps the demand there to still need a fee structure..

fee's should remain in the area of $0.001c - $0.05c at most.. just to keep bitcoins usefulness.. where the fee drops only due to bitcoins fiat valuation increasing..

going above 5cents is pissing off users because sending a transaction isnt cheap. and making it virtually free pisses people off due to spam.
i think the range of  $0.001c - $0.05c seems to be a safe balance to keep everyone happy

if fee's are $0.000c the scenario would be more like 200 real and 3800 spam because its a spammers field-day and real users get pissed off
if fee's are $0.25c the scenario would be more like 200 real and 200 spam and 3600 buffer because both real users and pranksters wont find bitcoin cheap or useful

[bargainbin]

Have you considered making fake-shitting in your toilet less attractive? Like maybe charging a higher admission to your toilets? (tho I admit, most people would sell their moms for a chance to sit in a toilet stall & fake-shit, so the price might have to be astronomical...)

it already costs $80 to fill 2000 toilets. which is $0.04c per toilet.. the solution is not to charge $0.08c in the hope a prankster cant afford $160 every 10 minutes.
because that just irritates the other customers..

Let's not stoop to the abysmal level of our opposition and actually be honest.
The actual tx cost, by my calculations, is 25BTC / (~3tps x ~600 seconds/block) = .0139 BTC, or ~$5.50 per tx. Plus +$.03 tx fee, so ~$5.53. This is the price we pay for security (hashpower), which is currently subsidized by the 25BTC block reward.
As block rewards diminish over time, this subsidy will disappear. Then miners will be compensated by tx fees exclusively. Bitcoin is an expensive thing, no two ways about it.

That said, the miners are currently free to reject any tx they see fit -- for having too low a fee, for having cloven hooves -- any reason. That's a (relatively healthy) mechanic.

but allowing for a potential 4000 toilets at $0.04c and hope the prankster cant afford $160 every 10 minutes, doesnt irritate the customers but can cost a prankster more.

infact. with a 2mb+segwit. theres a potential of maybe 8000 toilets. which would cost the prankster $320 every 10 minutes.

Well no, the miners are free to include/reject any tx, that's how bitcoin works. They're not obligated to accept any. If the miners feel that accepting free tx is the thing to do, they'll do it. If they feel that processing $360 in tx substantially increases the odds of having their block orphaned (and missing out on $10,000), they'll include *NONE*.
It's all very scientific and complicated, a convoluted & tangled interplay of too many variables

ok let's say there is 10% spam. this means 1800 real transactions and 200 spam. the fees are now for example 0.00014514
so rich spammer paid for example 0.029 per block
after 2MB instantly there will still be 1800 real but 2200 spam. but spammer will pay only 0.029  again. this means the spam fee will drop to 0.000013195
...

But that's not how it works at all. Miners aren't mining for the pittance in tx fees. They want the block rewards. Spammers aren't spending $$$ for kicks -- they either have a goal (blocksize increase) or they're not spammers (simply transacting small amounts of BTC, thus would see no reason to do it more often if the fees are reduced).

[franky1]

Let's not stoop to the abysmal level of our opposition and actually be honest.
The actual tx cost, by my calculations, is 25BTC / (~3tps x ~600 seconds/block) = .0139 BTC, or ~$5.50 per tx. Plus +$.03 tx fee, so ~$5.53. This is the price we pay for security (hashpower), which is currently subsidized by the 25BTC block reward.
As block rewards diminish over time, this subsidy will disappear. Then miners will be compensated by tx fees exclusively. Bitcoin is an expensive thing, no two ways about it.

no.. thats the price the miners receive from the mint.. but the miners charge customers alot less.
"we" (users) do not give miners the block reward.. its minted.

the diminishing of the reward is not a thing that needs to be dealt with for a long time.

put it this way.. 25btc @ $400=$10,000

if bitcoin has grown from $6-$400 in 4 years.. then in 10 years it can easily be worth $6400..
.. in 20 years the block reward will be about 1.5xxbtc which.. if bitcoin is $6400 each.. is still $10k block reward.
so relax about the block reward vs fee increase.. as thats a slow 20+year increase and not a 20 month requirement for fee's to subsidize rewards..

[bargainbin]

Let's not stoop to the abysmal level of our opposition and actually be honest.
The actual tx cost, by my calculations, is 25BTC / (~3tps x ~600 seconds/block) = .0139 BTC, or ~$5.50 per tx. Plus +$.03 tx fee, so ~$5.53. This is the price we pay for security (hashpower), which is currently subsidized by the 25BTC block reward.
As block rewards diminish over time, this subsidy will disappear. Then miners will be compensated by tx fees exclusively. Bitcoin is an expensive thing, no two ways about it.

no.. thats the price the miners receive from the mint.. but the miners charge customers alot less.
"we" (users) do not give miners the block reward.. its minted.

Sure, we users are paying for that block reward. Just like fiat holders are paying for fiat money that's "created out of thin air." Sure, you still have the $100 you put in a mattress 10 years ago, but now it's worth less. Same with BTC -- every newly minted coin debases the worth of your coin by 1/21-millionth.

the diminishing of the reward is not a thing that needs to be dealt with for a long time.

put it this way.. 25btc @ $400=$10,000

if bitcoin has grown from $6-$400 in 4 years.. then in 10 years it can easily be worth $6400..
.. in 20 years the block reward will be about 1.5xxbtc which.. if bitcoin is $6400 each.. is still $10k block reward.
so relax about the block reward vs fee increase.. as thats a slow 20+year increase and not a 20 month requirement for fee's to subsidize rewards..

It's irrelevant how much more or less each coin is worth. Hashpower secures the network. We're paying 25BTC every 10 minutes to secure the network now.
If BTC becomes more expensive, that only means the incentive to haxx0r it is proportionally greater, so it's pointless to denominate security in anything *but* BTC. Follow?

[watashi-kokoto]

Anyway guys if you don't like Satoshi's 1MB rule and like big blocks so much why don't you create an altcoin and have some central authority (e.g. you) to decide what the optimal block size should be. And while you have the central authority you can simply be the central authority who signs blocks and issues funds. Problem solved?

Oh wait you're doing an altcoin, but why do you insist on calling it Bitcoin?