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Author Topic: Thoughts on Zcash?  (Read 122578 times)
TPTB_need_war
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February 04, 2016, 10:36:41 AM
Last edit: February 04, 2016, 10:48:43 AM by TPTB_need_war
 #81

Thanks... it is hard to know what TPTB has been talking about since he just says "read my thread". You summed it up nicely... I've been wondering what he has been talking about and too lazy/busy to read his long threads. Roll Eyes

I am sure governments and/or government contractors and/or corporations are probably scraping metadata from Bitcoin (and possibly other cryptocurrencies.) I haven't done a ton of research on the subject like you guys, but I tend to agree with you that if you wanted to be as private/anonymous as possible, you would still need to try and obscure your metadata even while using Zcash. If the view key is ever compromised then so is your privacy, and it would also be necessary if they do a reset. I don't think this will be a huge issue for corporations though, because really we are talking about IP (or possibly computer hardware/software (or OS) versions) leaks... which they wouldn't really be too worried about I don't think. They are more worried about financial privacy than anonymity, so that their competition is kept in the dark.

If it is true that, with the Zcash view key, someone can see all transactions that ever occurred on that account, then I see this as a major blow to the functionality of Zcash. Perhaps there is still space for a technology like Monero with per-transaction view keys (and hopefully Monero will be combined with some type of CT implementation soon.) I can't imagine corporations wanting to open their books to anyone and everyone that they need to prove to that any certain transaction(s) occurred. I am still confused if the Zcash view key reveals all transactions for any certain account, or if can be done on a transaction-by-transaction basis.

I don't intend this to be condescending, but you just can't formulate logic based on incorrect assumptions of the technology and also incorrect assessment of the realistically achievable goals. If you don't have the time for deep study (because you are a full-time university student), then it will be difficult for you write opinions that always make sense. Afaics, all the above doesn't make sense, because of several different facts that you haven't yet incorporated into your thought process. For one, afair there isn't any Zcash viewkey (at least not yet although I have asked them about this and how they can appease the government and have auditing capabilities without a viewkey). Also no anonymity technology can protect you from the government, because the governments can force you to provide the viewkey and/or censor your transaction by employing a 51% attack the coin (i.e. control over the longest chain) numerous ways (e.g. charge the cost to the electricity to the collective and/or regulate the mining farms). Even those in the past who rebutted me with, "but the miners can be in every country and the USA can't control every country", have had to eat their words now that we've shown that China has monopolized mining and is even lying about their justification for 51% attacking Bitcoin. I was warning about Tragedy of the Commons centralization of control in 2013 and everyone said I was loony[1] and now even Germany is instituting the BigT lie to implement capital controls[2] (why do you think Merkel and the Troika allowed 1.1 million muslims to invade Germany! it was to make the people feel unsafe!). We the masses will never be able to have privacy from the government (from our society) until we all decide that priority is the most important and force our will on the government. That isn't going to happen for the masses until after they suffer through some totalitarianism in the 2017 - 2032 timeframe. Some of the masses are aware enough to perhaps not like NSA snooping (yet some support it as they support the military for their safety, nationalistic pride, and dominance of the USA as the reserve currency), but it isn't the most important priority that they are willing to fight for with all their effort and zeal. The Chinese (not all perhaps but enough do) actually support the single party Communist system, because afaik they think that people need to be disciplined and they think this provides a more harmonious society.

[1]Transactions Withholding Attack
Spiraling Transaction Fees destruction of Bitcoin
[2]

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TPTB_need_war
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February 04, 2016, 11:16:04 AM
 #82

My sincerely intended, scathing criticism over at the Zcash forum of Zcash's current funding model, distribution scheme, and myopia in terms of market targets strategy.

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February 04, 2016, 11:17:46 PM
Last edit: February 05, 2016, 06:30:27 AM by CoinHoarder
 #83

Thanks... it is hard to know what TPTB has been talking about since he just says "read my thread". You summed it up nicely... I've been wondering what he has been talking about and too lazy/busy to read his long threads. Roll Eyes

I am sure governments and/or government contractors and/or corporations are probably scraping metadata from Bitcoin (and possibly other cryptocurrencies.) I haven't done a ton of research on the subject like you guys, but I tend to agree with you that if you wanted to be as private/anonymous as possible, you would still need to try and obscure your metadata even while using Zcash. If the view key is ever compromised then so is your privacy, and it would also be necessary if they do a reset. I don't think this will be a huge issue for corporations though, because really we are talking about IP (or possibly computer hardware/software (or OS) versions) leaks... which they wouldn't really be too worried about I don't think. They are more worried about financial privacy than anonymity, so that their competition is kept in the dark.

If it is true that, with the Zcash view key, someone can see all transactions that ever occurred on that account, then I see this as a major blow to the functionality of Zcash. Perhaps there is still space for a technology like Monero with per-transaction view keys (and hopefully Monero will be combined with some type of CT implementation soon.) I can't imagine corporations wanting to open their books to anyone and everyone that they need to prove to that any certain transaction(s) occurred. I am still confused if the Zcash view key reveals all transactions for any certain account, or if can be done on a transaction-by-transaction basis.

I don't intend this to be condescending, but you just can't formulate logic based on incorrect assumptions of the technology and also incorrect assessment of the realistically achievable goals. If you don't have the time for deep study (because you are a full-time university student), then it will be difficult for you write opinions that always make sense. Afaics, all the above doesn't make sense, because of several different facts that you haven't yet incorporated into your thought process. For one, afair there isn't any Zcash viewkey (at least not yet although I have asked them about this and how they can appease the government and have auditing capabilities without a viewkey). Also no anonymity technology can protect you from the government, because the governments can force you to provide the viewkey and/or censor your transaction by employing a 51% attack the coin (i.e. control over the longest chain) numerous ways (e.g. charge the cost to the electricity to the collective and/or regulate the mining farms). Even those in the past who rebutted me with, "but the miners can be in every country and the USA can't control every country", have had to eat their words now that we've shown that China has monopolized mining and is even lying about their justification for 51% attacking Bitcoin. I was warning about Tragedy of the Commons centralization of control in 2013 and everyone said I was loony[1] and now even Germany is instituting the BigT lie to implement capital controls[2] (why do you think Merkel and the Troika allowed 1.1 million muslims to invade Germany! it was to make the people feel unsafe!). We the masses will never be able to have privacy from the government (from our society) until we all decide that priority is the most important and force our will on the government. That isn't going to happen for the masses until after they suffer through some totalitarianism in the 2017 - 2032 timeframe. Some of the masses are aware enough to perhaps not like NSA snooping (yet some support it as they support the military for their safety, nationalistic pride, and dominance of the USA as the reserve currency), but it isn't the most important priority that they are willing to fight for with all their effort and zeal. The Chinese (not all perhaps but enough do) actually support the single party Communist system, because afaik they think that people need to be disciplined and they think this provides a more harmonious society.

[1]Transactions Withholding Attack
Spiraling Transaction Fees destruction of Bitcoin
[2]
I don't intend this to be condescending, but you just can't formulate logic based on incorrect assumptions of the technology. For instance, your incorrect assumption there is no viewkey in Zcash invalidates an entire paragraph of your retort, if you wold have separated your diatribe into paragraphs that is. Perhaps you should spend more time researching (or understanding) something you claim to be an expert on.

Furthermore, it is disgusting how willing you are to lick the tyrannical boots of governments everywhere. Luckily, not everyone thinks like that. Otherwise all of the issues around the world, or more specifically human rights issues, would never be resolved. All persons should have a right to maintaining their privacy and anonymity without government interference. Whether it be finance, communication, personal, where you go, or what you do, everyone deserves privacy and anonymity if they so choose. Decentralized and anonymity technologies can, are and will be used to force governments' hands into repealing oppressive laws and regulations.

The easy way out is to admit defeat, so I don't blame you, but nothing is impossible. Governments have had trouble shutting down truly decentralized technologies like Bittorrent. So what if most (or all) cryptocurrencies are not truly decentralized, they are a step in the right direction and their distributed nature makes them much harder to shut down than any centralized web site or service.

Not only governments, but Corporations will also eventually be greatly effected by decentralized and anonymity technologies. You cannot enforce patents or trademarks against a decentralized network. This will even the playing field for low and middle class citizens of the world to compete against Corporations. It will create a true free market of businesses, providing more choices and competition, which in turn results in better services and products for everyone. I could honestly go on and on about all of the many ways different technologies, industries, and governments will be effected. I think decentralized, anonymity, and blockchain technologies will change the world.
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February 05, 2016, 09:23:09 AM
Last edit: February 05, 2016, 09:50:22 AM by TPTB_need_war
 #84

I don't intend this to be condescending, but you just can't formulate logic based on incorrect assumptions of the technology. For instance, your incorrect assumption there is no viewkey in Zcash invalidates an entire paragraph of your retort, if you wold have separated your diatribe into paragraphs that is. Perhaps you should spend more time researching (or understanding) something you claim to be an expert on.

Uh so young, so bruised ego, so elbows, so acrimony, so disrespectful, so petty, so unproductive, so anti-teamwork, so failure.

I do not recall reading anything about a viewkey in the 56 page long version of the white paper. I just wasted my time scanning it again and didn't find any mention. Please enlighten us as to what page of the white paper you are referring to.

Furthermore, it is disgusting how willing you are to lick the tyrannical boots of governments everywhere.

If you had 3/4 of my IQ, you might comprehend that certain things are impossible because they violate the finite speed-of-light and besides anonymity is not the solution to tyrannical government.

If you had even a clue as to what AnonyMint (myself) wrote since 2006, you would know I am fighting tyranny until my last breath.

Dude you've pushed (your uncontrollable irrationality and emotional outbursts) it too far and now are wasting my scarce time.

WARNING: Do this one time, and you will go on in my Ignore list, which means you will not be able to communicate with me (which will end up being a very big mistake on your part).

Stop this nonsense. I am not everyone's punching bag. I have important work to do.

You[government] cannot enforce patents or trademarks against a decentralized network.

Woefully incorrect and ignorant statement. Make you sure you follow the link to the page/thread which explains in detail.

Don't give me again your oft-repeated, immature and irresponsible excuse that you don't have time to read. That is your problem. (If you don't have time to read, then the responsible action is STFU until you do)

Not only governments, but Corporations will also eventually be greatly effected by decentralized and anonymity technologies.

Corporations will be replaced by direct business between individuals. In this way yes social network and block chain technologies can promote decentralization. But Bitshares/Daniel Larimer's invention of the DAC is idiotic. Robert Coase developed the Theory of the Firm that explains that corporations exist because they have a top-down moat around transaction costs. A corporation by definition and economic raison d'être is hierarchical.

Dude complete your college education and learn before attacking those who know more than you do. Along the way, you will realize how proudly stupid you were and become humbled (like those of us alphamales at the top) by all that you and we do not know. Once you've realize that you don't know everything and that if you think you've discovered the greatest thing since sliced bread, then you will have developed the maturity to be skeptical because experience of life will have taught you how risky it is to think you understand something and later discover you didn't understand some key detail.

Ego is for little people

[...]

Ego is for little people. I wish I could finish by saying something anodyne about how we’re all little when you come down to it, but I’d be fibbing. Yeah, we’re all little compared to a supernova, but that’s beside the point. And yeah, the most capable people in the world are routinely humbled by what they don’t know and can’t do, but that is beside the point too. If you look at how humans relate to other humans – and in particular, how they manage self-image and “ego” and evaluate their status with respect to others…it really is different near the top end of the human capability range. Better. Calmer. Sorry, but it’ s true.

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February 05, 2016, 03:15:13 PM
 #85

Quote
so bruised ego, so elbows, so acrimony, so disrespectful, so petty, so unproductive, so anti-teamwork, so failure.

You are one to speak...


A self proclaimed genius ought to be able to figure out that there will be a view key in Zcash. If you had 3/4 the IQ I have you would know that too. Maybe try understanding the white paper instead of reading it. Roll Eyes

Governments will enforce copyrights and trademarks just as successfully as they have enforced copyright laws.  Roll Eyes

You lecturing me about ego... pot meet kettle.  Roll Eyes
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February 05, 2016, 03:45:47 PM
Last edit: February 05, 2016, 05:03:25 PM by TPTB_need_war
 #86

CoinHoarder has been added to my Ignore list. Instead of responding with technical justification of his claim, he only throws mud.

I tried my best to be cordial and have a productive discussion with CoinHoarder. I've given him numerous chances to keep his discussion on the facts and not on his persistent focus on slaying the reputation of those who disagree with his love of Bitshares. Facts versus personal vendettas. But he doesn't seem to be capable of recognizing the distinction.

Again I believe a viewkey is possible with Zcash and that is why I have asked Zcash in their public forum (and reiterated its importance during Zooko's AMA) whether they are implementing it. Until we have their clarification, then we can't assume that which is not explicitly stated in the white paper. Readers will also note that CoinHoarder has not done the mea culpa acknowledging that he was ignorant of the applicability of Coase's Theory of the Firm to the Bitshares DAC nonsense that he is shrilling.

And he will not also admit the following is why he incorrect about stealing content.

Governments are organizing now around controlling the internet. The illegal activity through Bittorrent (which also steals from ISPs which have higher upload bandwidth allowances) is helping the governments feel they are justified in regulating the internet via Net Neutrality and other measures. You young fellow feel free to pursue theft of music and other content which deprives the millions of artists of income to pay their rent. You are not going to create the new Knowledge Economy with your theft model. And by advocating theft, you are helping the NWO totalitarianism to take form by providing an economic incentive and political support from millions of artists who are violated by piracy. Dumb. But I expect that from you.

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February 05, 2016, 03:52:57 PM
Last edit: February 05, 2016, 04:58:07 PM by CoinHoarder
 #87

Ignore me instead of admitting you are wrong about the viewkey. Or, maybe you are too stupid to realize you are wrong. Either way, you will find out eventually and feel like an idiot. The CEO of electric coin company stated there would be a view key in his AMA... an AMA in which you participated. Maybe you should practice reading comprehension.

Good day.

(Edit: or ninja edit your posts, backtrack, and ignore that you were wrong. That works too.  Roll Eyes)
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February 05, 2016, 05:02:34 PM
 #88

What I've been saying since 2013, that Tor/I2P are useless against national security agencies, and now after so many people thought I was loony, I am vindicated:

Secondly, there is clear evidence that timing information is both recognized as being key to correlating events and streams; and it is being recorded and stored at an increasing granularity. There is no smoking gun as of 2011 to say they casually de-anonymize Tor circuits, but the writing is on the wall for the onion routing system. GCHQ at 2011 had all ingredients needed to trace Tor circuits. It would take extra-ordinary incompetence to not have refined their traffic analysis techniques in the past 5 years. The Tor project should do well to not underestimate GCHQ’s capabilities to this point.

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February 05, 2016, 05:26:03 PM
 #89

One last time, before you go on permanent ignore...

Ignore me instead of admitting you are wrong about the viewkey. Or, maybe you are too stupid to realize you are wrong. Either way, you will find out eventually and feel like an idiot. The CEO of electric coin company stated there would be a view key in his AMA... an AMA in which you participated. Maybe you should practice reading comprehension.

You don't understand that Zook (the CEO) explained to me at his AMA that there is no viewkey:

In Zcash, the creator of each individual transaction gets complete control over who can view the contents of the transaction. This is accomplished by each transaction being individually encrypted by an encryption key known only to the creator and the recipient.

There is no other mechanism by which any party can gain the ability to view the contents of transactions other than getting the decryption key from the creator or the recipient of the transaction, or from someone else who has previously received the decryption key. This is a simple, implementable, secure, and understandable mechanism for controlling who can see what. We call it "selective transparency".

Does that answer your question?

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February 05, 2016, 07:15:26 PM
Last edit: February 05, 2016, 08:10:19 PM by CoinHoarder
 #90

One last time, before you go on permanent ignore...

Ignore me instead of admitting you are wrong about the viewkey. Or, maybe you are too stupid to realize you are wrong. Either way, you will find out eventually and feel like an idiot. The CEO of electric coin company stated there would be a view key in his AMA... an AMA in which you participated. Maybe you should practice reading comprehension.

You don't understand that Zook (the CEO) explained to me at his AMA that there is no viewkey:

In Zcash, the creator of each individual transaction gets complete control over who can view the contents of the transaction. This is accomplished by each transaction being individually encrypted by an encryption key known only to the creator and the recipient.

There is no other mechanism by which any party can gain the ability to view the contents of transactions other than getting the decryption key from the creator or the recipient of the transaction, or from someone else who has previously received the decryption key. This is a simple, implementable, secure, and understandable mechanism for controlling who can see what. We call it "selective transparency".

Does that answer your question?

You are either an idiot that lacks reading comprehension, or you areally bacracking in an atempt to avoid admitting that you were wrong by alluding that you were talking about a global viewkey (or backdoor.)

He clearly states several times that there is a view key per transaction, but not a global view key or back door. So I don't know why you keep saying therw is no viewkey, because there very clearly is.

If you really were using the term viewkey, as in them including a backdoor, then they have stated multiple times there will be none. That is a misuse of the word viewkey, at least in the way it's used around here referencing crypto note coins, and no one would know what exactly you were or are referencing by calling it such.

You are an even bigger idiot for suggesting they include a backdoor, effectively dealing a death blow to their company before it even gets started. For someone with as much business acumen as you claim, you are showing no to little business sense.

I know you will claim that the government will shut it down if they don't include a back door, but luckily not everyone is as willing to bend over for the government like you. It is fine if you want to be a pansy and give into the government's violations of human rights, but that doesn't mean the rest of us have to.
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February 05, 2016, 07:31:28 PM
Last edit: February 05, 2016, 08:07:50 PM by st0at
 #91

One last time, before you go on permanent ignore...

Ignore me instead of admitting you are wrong about the viewkey. Or, maybe you are too stupid to realize you are wrong. Either way, you will find out eventually and feel like an idiot. The CEO of electric coin company stated there would be a view key in his AMA... an AMA in which you participated. Maybe you should practice reading comprehension.

You don't understand that Zook (the CEO) explained to me at his AMA that there is no viewkey:

In Zcash, the creator of each individual transaction gets complete control over who can view the contents of the transaction. This is accomplished by each transaction being individually encrypted by an encryption key known only to the creator and the recipient.

There is no other mechanism by which any party can gain the ability to view the contents of transactions other than getting the decryption key from the creator or the recipient of the transaction, or from someone else who has previously received the decryption key. This is a simple, implementable, secure, and understandable mechanism for controlling who can see what. We call it "selective transparency".

Does that answer your question?

You are either an idiot that lacks reading comprehension, or you areally bacracking in an atempt to avoid admitting that you were wrong by alluding that you were talking about a global viewkey (or backdoor.)

He clearly states several times that there is a view key per transaction, but not a global view key or back door. So I don't know why you keep saying therw is no viewkey, because there very clearly is.

If you really were using the term viewkey, as in them including a backdoor, then they have stated multiple times there will be none (and is a misuse of the word viewkey by the way and no one would know what exactly you were or are referencing.)

You are an even bigger idiot for suggesting they include a backdoor, effectively dealing a death blow to their company before it even gets started. For someone with as much business acumen as you claim, you are showing no to little business sense.

I know you will claim that the government will shut it down if they don't include a back door, but luckily not everyone is as willing to bend over for the government like you. It is fine if you want to be a pansy and give into the government's violations of human rights, but that doesn't mean the rest of us have to.

A payer's decryption key which compromises the recipient (because the power to reveal the recipient also rests with the payer) is not a viewkey in the sense of Cryptonote's correct implementation of viewkey. Either one or the other should be able to reveal, but not both because otherwise the implication is that no payer and no payee is ever in control of their viewings. Perhaps more importantly, it is not clear if the Zcash decryption key provides sufficient (or too much) information, because note with the Cryptonote viewkey all payments to that same address can be linked. It is possible that Zcash already implements a viewkey correctly and Zooko's articulation is misleading. That is why I emphasized they need a viewkey. Perhaps a per-transaction viewkey is sufficient and also provides more resistance against tyranny than a global viewkey or Cryptonote's viewkey with links multiple transactions. But I am not omniscient so I have mentioned both variants. Frankly I haven't yet had a spare moment to think about how Zcash's decryption key relates to Cryptonote's viewkey and the implications of the differences. That is why I have kept my statements general that they need a viewkey, what ever that ends up being contingent on full analysis of the implications.

But its quite understandable why a n00b like you would not recognize the distinction without being told so and would instead sling his character assassination mud all over the thread. I didn't start this animosity. You did. And you refuse to stop even after I tried to be cordial with you. Enjoy your Dunning-Kruger self-fucking fest.
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February 05, 2016, 08:25:07 PM
 #92

Nice, so you ignore me on one account then switch accounts and talk to me? Lol.

It is not my fault you misused the term viewkey as it is usually used around here. You stated there would be no viewkey and I simply pointed out that wasn't the case. Then you called me an idiot because you misused the term viewkey, and directly caused my misunderstanding of what you were trying to convey.

Anyways, it is clear that we are debating semantics, and you (as always) remain delusional about how big of an a hole you come across as. I am very laid back, but not to people that are condescending assholes like you that are never wrong about anything.

You inject your subjective opinions as if they are objective facts, and lace it with enough truth so that sheep believe what you are saying. Then, you vicously defend the position as if you are handcuffed to a laptop 24x7 and have nothing better to do... ever. So, eventually people give up on debating your subjective opinions, if they didn't already because of your rudeness, and you feel like you "won" the argument. Therefore, you are the smartest person in the world and everyone else are incompetent sheep with brains the size of peas.

I've got you figured out pretty well, and I would prefer you just ignore me because you are the biggest waste of time ever. I wouldn't respond to you to save time, but then that would give the illusion to others that your subjective opinions are objective facts.
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February 05, 2016, 09:35:30 PM
 #93

Sorry - not read paper.. Just a couple of questions..

Are the amounts hidden ? (As in confidential transactions)

Is this something gmax won't be able to crow bar into bitcoin ?

Is it quantum secure ?

Thanks.


Life is Code.
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February 05, 2016, 09:37:44 PM
 #94

A 'decryption' key is not a 'viewkey'.  Hmmm, then why have a viewkey in Cryptonote if the recipient also has a decryption key? Because in Cryptonote the private decryption key would also enable one to spend the coins. The decryption key in Zcash has other properties, but it is not necessarily consistent with what everyone else here is referring to when they say 'viewkey'.

CoinHoarder I don't know why you bother to try to write that long diatribe to further show everyone how you are all about ego and character assassination, instead of teamwork and production. Wasting time. And you should be studying since you claimed you have a full load this semester (and I should be coding), so you are wasting your time and my time with nonsense (as usual).

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February 05, 2016, 11:49:31 PM
 #95

A 'decryption' key is not a 'viewkey'.  Hmmm, then why have a viewkey in Cryptonote if the recipient also has a decryption key? Because in Cryptonote the private decryption key would also enable one to spend the coins. The decryption key in Zcash has other properties, but it is not necessarily consistent with what everyone else here is referring to when they say 'viewkey'.

CoinHoarder I don't know why you bother to try to write that long diatribe to further show everyone how you are all about ego and character assassination, instead of teamwork and production. Wasting time. And you should be studying since you claimed you have a full load this semester (and I should be coding), so you are wasting your time and my time with nonsense (as usual).

One could argue you are also wasting your own time by replying to "nonsense"...just putting that out there Smiley

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February 06, 2016, 04:58:12 AM
 #96

A 'decryption' key is not a 'viewkey'.  Hmmm, then why have a viewkey in Cryptonote if the recipient also has a decryption key? Because in Cryptonote the private decryption key would also enable one to spend the coins. The decryption key in Zcash has other properties, but it is not necessarily consistent with what everyone else here is referring to when they say 'viewkey'.

CoinHoarder I don't know why you bother to try to write that long diatribe to further show everyone how you are all about ego and character assassination, instead of teamwork and production. Wasting time. And you should be studying since you claimed you have a full load this semester (and I should be coding), so you are wasting your time and my time with nonsense (as usual).

One could argue you are also wasting your own time by replying to "nonsense"...just putting that out there Smiley

Agreed, except that I think I hadn't made my thinking on the issues he raised clear enough, which I suppose is my fault. Frankly a lot of the thoughts weren't totally perfectly organized my mind because been battling a relapse the past 2 days which means my energy to think was limited (imagine head on the keyboard fighting sleep sort of lack of concentration). I had to grab the participation in Zooko's AMA and the early stage of the forum.z.cash while the opportunity was there, so my relapse condition could not be an excuse for the need to do work that had to be done this week. In short life isn't perfect. Even I read yesterday that Zooko's production dropped recently because he was separating from his wife. We humans do have other things going on sometimes. CoinHoarder has a full time load at the university and I respect that. I wish he would respect that I've studied some areas (given my 3 years full time in this area) that he hasn't. And try to work for aiding each other than fighting. I understand he is upset at me because I don't have a high opinion of Bitshares (and on that point I will be vindicated once again ... so he can fight all he wants but it won't help him because I can already see the traits of Dan & Stan Larimer ... and he resents that I could have any following on the forum because I do make such a judgement on the Bitshare's Brothers ahem I mean Father & Son ... smart guys, apparently prolific coders ... but incorrect conceptualization of technological uses and markets).

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February 06, 2016, 07:09:38 AM
 #97

Has anyone else noticed an incredible amount of self coin hyping on these forums or is it just me looking into it a little much?
I don't honestly believe the best way to promote one's project is to needlessly spam about it, makes the thing look unprofessional as a whole.

(this is in reference to the second post on this thread, the etheruem fanboys are absolutely full of themselves, please stop spamming)

Zcash is interesting.. But not entirely sure if it's game changing.
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February 06, 2016, 08:13:36 AM
Last edit: February 06, 2016, 06:08:02 PM by TPTB_need_war
 #98

Zcash is interesting.. But not entirely sure if it's game changing.

FWIW, I share that opinion but about privacy technologies in general, because after deep study of the technologies I am not sure if they work.

Zcash has issues as well, and we have to see how they work out the details. I've lost all hope in Cryptonote/RingCT because of the meta-data issue. I originally thought I would be able to come up with some magic for obscuring the meta-data, but eventually came to realize that the End-to-End Principle (and unrelated but analogously the CAP theorem) always wins and is paramount. I just hope that everyone who has invested their sweat and blood into CN coins, realizes that I don't relish coming to that conclusion. And of course they may have another perspective and think the technology still has value. I think I have already explained my thinking on the matter and so need to repeat myself.

I am just agreeing that I have not concluded that Zcash is the solution either. Devil is in the details (and I don't know about you, but I have other work to do and can't put all of my time into anonymity technology any more, not unless someone is offering me a good opportunity for that line of work and remember cryptography is not my formal area of expertise). I have much better opportunities within my career expertise of producing user facing products for mass adoption.

Enough said that I agree with you. And I am not sure there are any game changing technologies yet. I am not even sure if my attempt to refine Satoshi's design is bullet proof. I won't know until I dig into every detail, dot every 'i', and cross every 't'. I wish CoinHoarder appreciated the work that developers do and how pedantic it is. Broadstroking conclusions without deep understanding of details often leads to incorrect conclusions.

For example, everyone has been so enthusiastic about decentralized file systems (MaidSafe, Storj, Sia, IPFS, etc), but none of us had apparently realized they are not fighting tyranny but rather aiding tyranny as I explained to CoinHoarder upthread. Devil is in the details. DAC sounds so sexy, until one realizes that corporations are inherently not decentralized because otherwise the individuals don't need to share their labor with the parasite corporation if there is no top-down moat around the corporation per Coase's Theory of the Firm. The number of incorrect conceptualizations that Dan Larimer has spawned goes back to the discussions I used to have with him in 2013 on the forum. Actually his intentions are often spot on, e.g. he was focused on electricity consumption back in 2013 and I was not. But as a result he ended up with DPOS and arguing that top-down hierarchies are appropriate for crypto currency. Then he recently admitted they don't work well and has been proposing some basterdized concept of PoS that attempts to mimic PoW (which isn't an entirely accurate summary), which again will be another dead end. So then CoinHoarder gets angry at me for having formed an opinion over the past 3 years of the way those guys think and make choices. And obviously CoinHoarder has formed his opinion of me as well which he has every right to do.

I think the best is to say nothing in forums and share nothing. And then of course make numerous mistakes because no one person is omniscient.  Undecided

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February 06, 2016, 08:23:25 AM
 #99

Has anyone else noticed an incredible amount of self coin hyping on these forums or is it just me looking into it a little much?
I don't honestly believe the best way to promote one's project is to needlessly spam about it, makes the thing look unprofessional as a whole.

(this is in reference to the second post on this thread, the etheruem fanboys are absolutely full of themselves, please stop spamming)

Zcash is interesting.. But not entirely sure if it's game changing.

You do understand that the second post on this thread is TPTB_need_war? He's mocking stoat. Who is stoat? An etheruem fanboy, shill, whatever. Shelby has a warped sense of humor like me. I enjoy being an idiot, while Shelby enjoys teaching idiots a lesson.
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February 06, 2016, 12:24:30 PM
 #100

Has anyone else noticed an incredible amount of self coin hyping on these forums or is it just me looking into it a little much?
I don't honestly believe the best way to promote one's project is to needlessly spam about it, makes the thing look unprofessional as a whole.

(this is in reference to the second post on this thread, the etheruem fanboys are absolutely full of themselves, please stop spamming)

Zcash is interesting.. But not entirely sure if it's game changing.

You do understand that the second post on this thread is TPTB_need_war? He's mocking stoat. Who is stoat? An etheruem fanboy, shill, whatever. Shelby has a warped sense of humor like me. I enjoy being an idiot, while Shelby enjoys teaching idiots a lesson.

Yes I am an ethereum shill.  I operate alone and my views do not represent the ethereum devs or ethereum community. 

I support ethereum because it's the most promising crypto yet invented and I want it to succeed.

I find honesty about ones objectives and agenda to be the best policy

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