Thoughts on Zcash?

[TPTB_need_war]

drown in your own self-pity

I will pray you get fatty liver disease so you can walk in my shoes (oh yeah you can't click a link ... how sad). Any way, it is coming cured finally. So now I can deal with you retards the way I have always done in the past before I got ill.

I wish that you recover. Praying for someone to get sick? New level of low, but I can understand why you are stuck there. Your arrogance knows no bounds.

You attack me alleging/implying that I am trying to generate sympathy (or that I am some weakling who wallows in self-pity). So I said if you walk in my shoes then maybe you would understand that being ill doesn't mean the person wants sympathy. In fact, what I wanted was to get well so I could code. Fuck why do I have to compensate for your very low IQ which causes you to not comprehend simple things. Stop dragging me into your retarded myopia.

You have no fucking idea what struggle I went through with my health. It wasn't self-pity asshole. It was a fucking hell that you will not understand until you have the same illness. I fought every damn day in herculean ways that you can't see. But don't worry, I am coming cured thanks to a miracle called oatmeal.

I didn't attack you in this thread. You attacked me. I responded rationally. You continue your nonsense myopia and attack me some more.

I could respond in more detail if I thought there was any benefit to doing so, but I'd rather let you continue with your overconfidence. Just a little note for you:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1378318.msg14023976#msg14023976

Yet another looping reference. Why are you quoting gmaxwell's post, when I already posted that in my earlier post (and coincidently you also posted about it). I am just sick of you trying to take credit for someone else's work and pooping on progress made elsewhere which doesn't fit your agenda. You have been lying to yourself for so long, you have started believing in your own lies.

Dude you have no fucking clue. And I have no desire to teach you how ignorant you are. You are too stupid to understand what is really going on. I refuse to argue with an idiot.

I am not claiming any one else's work dumbass[1]. Try to learn how to read.

If you think Gregory Maxwell is trying to help you, then you are a dumb sucker who either can't read or can't understand the technical points (or can't click links).

I cover such a wide swath of technical information, you are inane to claim that I shouldn't use links to refer to what I have already written. What kind of total idiot would suggest that I should re-type all my posts into every post I make. Fucking retarded.

That is enough talk. STFU and I will too. There won't be any need for words on the other side of where this is all headed.

[1]

And don't get so smug about my Zero Knowledge Transactions versus Shen-noether/Gmaxwell's RingCT. I will prove everything I claimed when I am ready. I love to make fools eat their shit. Consider that I might just be waiting for Monero to waste their time implementing a less efficient protocol. I offered to help them if they'd pay me something reasonable, instead they had Shen treat me condescendingly. I do not lose. Watch and learn how I deal with fucktards. You are playing checkers and I am playing 5D chess.

[1715008633]

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[1715008633]

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[Dacarte]

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[dEBRUYNE]

https://blog.okturtles.com/2016/03/the-zcash-catch/

[newb4now]

You are playing checkers and I am playing 5D chess.

How about quantum chess?

http://www.cnet.com/news/watch-paul-rudd-beat-stephen-hawking-at-quantum-chess/#!

[TPTB_need_war]

https://blog.okturtles.com/2016/03/the-zcash-catch/

That blog post doesn't mention the weaknesses of Cryptonote/RingCT which I have explained numerous time. I posted a comment to that blog and it still hasn't appeared. Thus so far, I think that blog is a monero shilling vehicle and not objective.

Also one final followup to slapper regarding what I claim is his incorrect perception that I am trying to take credit of the work of others (and please do click this quote so you can go read all the context):

[...]

Please understand the salient distinction. One general problem that I've observed numerous times in the block chain arena, is the very smart coders and mathematicians/cryptographers seem to have blind spots on economics (and even on the importance of degrees-of-freedom in design).

[smooth]

https://blog.okturtles.com/2016/03/the-zcash-catch/

That blog post doesn't mention the weaknesses of Cryptonote/RingCT which I have explained numerous time. I posted a comment to that blog and it still hasn't appeared. Thus so far, I think that blog is a monero shilling vehicle and not objective.

I'm not sure it is a shilling vehicle, though it might be. Zcash appears to have paid PR going on which gets it a lot of coverage in places like Wired (along with grossly unethical pumping from bitcoin.com, owned by Roger Ver, an investor in Zcash), while Monero does not. Thus it is quite plausible that people might just want to respond to the aggressive Zcash shilling and point out some less rosy perspectives on it that you certainly won't hear from the paid PR and pumpers.

[frank22]

https://blog.okturtles.com/2016/03/the-zcash-catch/

That blog post doesn't mention the weaknesses of Cryptonote/RingCT which I have explained numerous time. I posted a comment to that blog and it still hasn't appeared. Thus so far, I think that blog is a monero shilling vehicle and not objective.

I'm not sure it is a shilling vehicle, though it might be. Zcash appears to have paid PR going on which gets it a lot of coverage in places like Wired (along with grossly unethical pumping from bitcoin.com, owned by Roger Ver, an investor in Zcash), while Monero does not. Thus it is quite plausible that people might just want to respond to the aggressive Zcash shilling and point out some less rosy perspectives on it that you certainly won't hear from the paid PR and pumpers.

damn I love this guy, a shining light of common sense and pragmatism against the hypocrisy in this forum, god speed dude.

[dEBRUYNE]

https://blog.okturtles.com/2016/03/the-zcash-catch/

That blog post doesn't mention the weaknesses of Cryptonote/RingCT which I have explained numerous time. I posted a comment to that blog and it still hasn't appeared. Thus so far, I think that blog is a monero shilling vehicle and not objective.

I'm not sure it is a shilling vehicle, though it might be. Zcash appears to have paid PR going on which gets it a lot of coverage in places like Wired (along with grossly unethical pumping from bitcoin.com, owned by Roger Ver, an investor in Zcash), while Monero does not. Thus it is quite plausible that people might just want to respond to the aggressive Zcash shilling and point out some less rosy perspectives on it that you certainly won't hear from the paid PR and pumpers.

Agree. Furthermore, the blog post was about Zcash and Monero was only mentioned twice (once as rebuttal that Monero can't hide amounts) and once as an alternative. I agree with TPTB_need_war that if the blogpost was about Monero weaknesses should be addressed.

[TPTB_need_war]

https://blog.okturtles.com/2016/03/the-zcash-catch/

That blog post doesn't mention the weaknesses of Cryptonote/RingCT which I have explained numerous time. I posted a comment to that blog and it still hasn't appeared. Thus so far, I think that blog is a monero shilling vehicle and not objective.

I'm not sure it is a shilling vehicle, though it might be. Zcash appears to have paid PR going on which gets it a lot of coverage in places like Wired (along with grossly unethical pumping from bitcoin.com, owned by Roger Ver, an investor in Zcash), while Monero does not. Thus it is quite plausible that people might just want to respond to the aggressive Zcash shilling and point out some less rosy perspectives on it that you certainly won't hear from the paid PR and pumpers.

Agree. Furthermore, the blog post was about Zcash and Monero was only mentioned twice (once as rebuttal that Monero can't hide amounts) and once as an alternative. I agree with TPTB_need_war that if the blogpost was about Monero weaknesses should be addressed.

That is reasonable. I just wish Monero would go out-of-its-way to insure the criticisms of its own tech are always mentioned for those resources its supporters cite. You can be sure if I make a coin, the flaws will be mentioned in the white paper.

I am of the belief that BS eventually walks and only substance rules the roost.

On that video of the recent Satoshi roundtable, Roger Ver demonstrated how clueless he is about the technology issues surrounding the block chain scaling debacle. He said he felt those against a block size increase were constantly changing their reasons and thus block chain increases don't have real negative repressions. It is not that the reasons are changing, but rather the reasons Bitcoin can't scale are multiplying as people investigate and understand better the issues.

[sugarpuff]

https://blog.okturtles.com/2016/03/the-zcash-catch/

That blog post doesn't mention the weaknesses of Cryptonote/RingCT which I have explained numerous time. I posted a comment to that blog and it still hasn't appeared. Thus so far, I think that blog is a monero shilling vehicle and not objective.

Hello, I noticed this thread in our referrer logs. I am the author of that post on Zcash. To be clear, neither myself nor okTurtles are in any way associated with Monero. I chose Monero simply as an example of one well known Cryptonote cryptocurrency, and I chose it specifically because it felt (to me) to be one of the more reputable cryptonote implementations (the post also links to this comprehensive listing of cryptonotes).

Regarding your comment not appearing on the post, I am very sorry but I'm not aware of any such comment being posted. I checked whether Akismet (our anti-spam software) might have captured it, but searching for "Cryptonote" and "Monero" did not bring up any results.

We'd be more than happy to host your comment criticizing Monero for any technical shortcomings. I am very curious what those shortcomings are, so if you'd like to PM me the email you used to post the comment that might make it easier for me to find it. Or, you are more than welcome to try posting it again.

[cyberhacker]

insteresting.

any thought about this one?  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1370260.0

also claimed to adopt zerocash.

[illodin]

insteresting.

any thought about this one?  https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1370260.0

also claimed to adopt zerocash.

Supply mined in silence, 2 week distribution over, now it's time to pump.

this maybe a big pump next month.
the current price is dirty cheap.

buy it and you will get 40 *   rewards.

very soon. don't miss the train.

very promising project, trust me.

can't believe ppl never paid attention to this one.

Less than 2000 coins to be produced by POW...

I can feel something big will happen soon

zerocoin sold 10% zerocoin, 2.1 m  out of 21 million to investor, stuff.   around 1million USD.

Imagine if Destiny first release zerocash anonymity with smart contract.

huger than we can imagine. baby.

time to get on board.

this is huge.

hint.  DASH

Cannot believe i missed the POW on this coin. Wish i had noticed it at launch. just had to buy 0.5 BTC worth at almost 50k. Really kicking myself, but hopefully i will still make good on my BTC 

could be very huge.  remind me of early days of DASH.

LOL

sell your coins for peanuts.

it will buy you a house later.

don't worry. weak hands are already out.

it is only 30k USD market cap.

we hold fast and ready for epic pump.

lower price is a easy entry for noobs, and certainly easy for them to push the market cap up.

this is an issue of psychology.  maybe you have to think very hard to  figure it out.

anyway, the IQ is quite different from one man to another.

hint.  dash and monero will soon be obsolete.

[Conqueror]

Ethereum can be programmed to do anything including anonymity so no more need for specialized coins.

Ethereum will eventually provide all needs. Other coins pale in comparison.

Ethereum is already a mature produce with $millions spent on development. Z.cash is immature and not yet ready for prime time. Ethereum's price and market cap are going up and now #2 market cap.

Ethereum will steamroll everything including Bitcoin.

Sell your XMR and DRK for ETH.

You must be the dumbest ETH shill I ever saw, and I saw lot of those creatures.

[sinner]

when does this launch?

[TPTB_need_war]

Did I just REKT Zcash's Equihash proof-of-work algorithm?

Re: Zcash Equihash PoW Released

https://z.cash/blog/why-equihash.html

Well some Monero folks seem to very interested, so I decided to take a look because I suddenly remembered something from Iota's whitepaper:

http://188.138.57.93/tangle.pdf#page=20 (4.3 Resistance to quantum computations)

If you look on page 115 of Bernstein's Post Quantum Cryptography, it confirms a sqrt(N) speedup for Wagner's solution to the Generalized Birthday Problem for the hypothetical quantum computer. So if Equihash is using a large list of values to be sorted, then the speedup could be so great that a quantum computer could rewrite the entire block chain quite easily by redoing the past proof-of-work exponentially faster than it was originally done.

It appears that a memory hard algorithm such as Cryptonite would not have this problem.

I am just rushing and have not reread the Equihash white paper carefully, so I may have a mistake in my analysis.

Additionally I was thinking that this Equihash can be trivially sped up on an ASIC because the Equihash algorithm is not memory latency bound and thus is bound on the sorting and computation speed and/or the memory bandwidth, which can be optimized with specialized hardware.

Have I missed something in my haste Surely the Z.cash folks are not this myopic.

The following assumption from the Equihash white paper seems to be wrong:

For fixed memory size, memory chips with bandwidth
significantly higher than that of typical desktop memory (such
as DDR3) are rare. Assuming that a prover does not have
access to memory with bandwidth higher than certain
Bw
max
,
we can efficiently bound the time-memory (and thus the time-
area) product for such implementations.

...

To the best of our knowledge, the highest reported band-
width in commercial products does not exceed 200 GB/s
(Playstation 4 has 172 GB/s bandwidth [5]), whereas the
desktop DDR3 can have as high as 17 GB/s bandwidth [3].
Thus we conclude that the highest advantage a prover can
get from parallel hardware does not exceed the factor of 15.
This may mean that our proof-of-work is GPU- and desktop-
friendly, whereas it is also ASIC-resistant in the sense that an
ASIC implementation does not yield smaller time-area product.

I am thinking faster memory bandwidth can be obtained by reading and writing to multiple, redundant independent memory banks simultaneously that are interleaved differently to have disjoint collisions on banks.

Or even if not faster, then perhaps orders-of-magnitude more electrically efficient, since the electric consumption will be primarily in the computation and not in the memory. And computation can be radically optimized on an ASIC.

As I predicted when I wrote in the Monero thread about this the other day, it appears the white paper didn't consider electricity as the most important factor. Duh.

[bitwhizz]

where cna i find the technical paper for zcash?

[rangedriver]

This is the deal breaker:-

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1389890.0

[Hueristic]

WAT? Not very forward thinking.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Bandwidth_Memory

[ICOcountdown.com]

I have added ZeroCash to http://miningcountdown.com hopefully they give us a date soon so we can mine it.

[TPTB_need_war]

Zcash appears to be demonstrating their lack of technical expertise on block chain related matters:

Additionally I was thinking that this Equihash can be trivially sped up on an ASIC because the Equihash algorithm is not memory latency bound and thus is bound on the sorting and computation speed and/or the memory bandwidth, which can be optimized with specialized hardware.

There is no publicly available optimized code for Equihash, so we don't really know to what extent it
is bandwidth or latency bound. There may be subtle trade offs between the two. We really need to see the memory behaviour of actual running optimized code.

1. You didn't address my electrical efficiency point, which I think is probably the most damning. I very much doubt that the memory power consumption will be even 1/10 of the computational power consumption. Thus an ASIC will be at least 10 times more power efficient, Don't I remember pointing out the same issue with your Cuckoo hash? What was your retort again?

2. I also very much doubt it will be latency bound (even after the 10X speed up of the computation), because optimized sorting doesn't have to be random access.

For any memory bandwidth bound, there is this:

WAT? Not very forward thinking.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Bandwidth_Memory