Thoughts on Zcash?

[tempus]

i've warned you,

ZCash is not designed to be a coin, its designed to suck off money from noobies and ignorant people into dev / miners....

The trend is clear, even if it will take a LONG time. we are heading below 0.005 BTC folks. Too much inflation.
Many said it didn't matter. Of course many of those saying this were the miners... Disregarding inflation is like disregarding the beautiful mathematics behind cryptographic schemes.

The situation will stay dire for years because so many coins are mined. There will be no usage for ZCash when it cannot be a store of value. Even if the price crashed immediately, people would not touch it because of the incoming supply. It took years for BTC to become mature and stabilize a bit its volatility, it would be the same for ZCash. However in the meantime, confidence will have been lost and the market will already have focused on coins with better technology and supply/demand situation.

XMR is showing renewed signs of life. No tsunami of supply, an implied valuation much cheaper than ZCash, and soon a lot of new features. I can easily see it going back to ATH and more...
Those who keep bidding or holding ZEC will deserve their fate... they will be ZECKT.

There are at least 2 or 3 points I'm very critical about when it comes to Zcash, but the inflation is not an issue. It's not higher as it was in Bitcoin when it started and some other coins. The impression of high inflation is a result of the distorted price which is a result of the combination of slow-start (low supply) and hype (high demand). That's why the price was way too high and now it drops to a point where the market sees a faire valuation - wherever that might be. But I doubt it will go 0.005. That would be about $3.5. Won't happen, not even if there is a real worst-case-scenario.

To think about the price one has to think about the marketcap at a certain point of time and how much coins there will be at that point.

But again: That's not a problem. The price had to go down. Or more precise: It never should have been where it was. And the inflation is just like Bitcoin.



What I'm critical about is:

1) Trusted Setup - while there is a very high chance that it all is ok it would be naive to ignore that part
2) I'm not a technical guy but what I've read is, that because of it's design it would be possible that a very dangerous bug maybe wouldn't even be detected.
3) The high mining reward for the team


I'm not so sure about point 3, because in fact also Satoshi has a lot of Bitcoins and other early participants and other big projects do ICO's and so on. But at least it's something that gives not the best impression.

[weryo]

There are at least 2 or 3 points I'm very critical about when it comes to Zcash, but the inflation is not an issue. It's not higher as it was in Bitcoin when it started and some other coins. The impression of high inflation is a result of the distorted price which is a result of the combination of slow-start (low supply) and hype (high demand). That's why the price was way too high and now it drops to a point where the market sees a faire valuation - wherever that might be. But I doubt it will go 0.005. That would be about $3.5. Won't happen, not even if there is a real worst-case-scenario.

To think about the price one has to think about the marketcap at a certain point of time and how much coins there will be at that point.

But again: That's not a problem. The price had to go down. Or more precise: It never should have been where it was. And the inflation is just like Bitcoin.

I get your point, but at the moment there are only 25k coins, it'll be double that in a few weeks or so.
Then 100k, 200k, 400k, 800k, 1.6m ... The price will probably go down for many months (or years) to come.
In the meantime there will be many other coins without this flaw that will drive investors away from Zcash.
I think eventually the price will come down to around 0.005 btc.

[densuj]

Hi guys,

What are your thoughts on Zcash and its zero-knowledge proof construction? I've read that there are already a few big investors backing up this project.

Cheers!

ZCash is new altcoins and it is still not stable on the price, too dangerous for makes investment into it and there are no people who know, is it scam coin or not? So we must wait the proggess of coin from the developer and big investors as you said. I don't want taking risk on new coin although it has expensive price on the markets.

[greenuser]

Maybe the Devs should have took 50%?

[dinofelis]

This doesn't make sense - gold and silver markets are manipulated DOWNWARD, not upward. I believe this is done via "naked shorting" - currently the infrastructure to naked short bitcoin does not exist. If the Fed prints money to buy up gold or bitcoin, they make it more valuable, and thus more likely to be held.

You are talking about a different effect here.  The "naked shorts" imply a confusion between "paper gold" and genuine gold.  In fact, paper gold is like good ol' fractional banking.  As long as there is a "parity" between an once of paper gold, and of genuine gold, it seems as if this naked shorting is creating gold out of nothing and is causing inflation.  However, this is actually only inflation for paper gold.  When there's a lot of naked shorted gold (paper gold), it is the opportunity to acquire cheap physical gold, because when the bubble bursts, or when it deflates, the whole market cap of paper gold will go to physical gold. 
But this is not the action of the FED.  The action of the FED is to buy gold when it is expensive, and to sell gold when it is cheap.  That sounds like a crazy doctrine, because normally you lose when buying high, and selling low.  But if you can print money at will, that is no problem.  What happens when doing so, is that the FED increases the volatility of gold, and "stabilises" the paper dollar.  In doing so, it pumps effectively the held value in gold into the dollar.  When gold is expensive, its policy makes it even more expensive, meaning that people have to spend a lot of value on the little bit of gold they can acquire.  Later, when the gold price diminishes, the FED throws even more gold on the market, making the gold that people held, less worth, so that they can obtain much less value against it.
For any other agent, this would be a terribly lossy and expensive thing to do, but as the FED can print the money it likes (and is "backed" by the very stuff it is buying), it doesn't cost the FED ziltch doing so.

In fact, the naked shorting of gold counteracts the FED's manipulation.  I'm pretty sure they don't like it.

There's nothing that can stop the FED from doing exactly the same with bitcoin: buying it against printed dollars when it is high and selling it (absorbing dollars) when it is low, increasing its volatility.

The only thing that would make sense to kill bitcoin would be to "corner the market", which will be difficult for even the Fed, given that bitcoin has an $11 billion market cap right now. Remember also that as the USD price of bitcoin goes up, forex arbitrage opportunities present themselves...

Suppose the FED is willing to print $50 billion dollar to "own" bitcoin, what would be the problem ?  It could print 50 billion, buy up all bitcoin, which is then "backing" the printing of those $50 billion.  When the FED has bought 4/5 of all bitcoin, and people have been spending fortunes on the 1/5 that's left, the FED sells its stash of bitcoin all at once, crashing the price. 
All the value that people had been spending on acquiring that 1/5 of bitcoin is now gone (into dollars printed by the FED).

And the cycle can start over.

Value is pumped out of people wanting to store it in bitcoin.  Like value is pumped out of people wanting to store it in gold.

[tempus]

There are at least 2 or 3 points I'm very critical about when it comes to Zcash, but the inflation is not an issue. It's not higher as it was in Bitcoin when it started and some other coins. The impression of high inflation is a result of the distorted price which is a result of the combination of slow-start (low supply) and hype (high demand). That's why the price was way too high and now it drops to a point where the market sees a faire valuation - wherever that might be. But I doubt it will go 0.005. That would be about $3.5. Won't happen, not even if there is a real worst-case-scenario.

To think about the price one has to think about the marketcap at a certain point of time and how much coins there will be at that point.

But again: That's not a problem. The price had to go down. Or more precise: It never should have been where it was. And the inflation is just like Bitcoin.

I get your point, but at the moment there are only 25k coins, it'll be double that in a few weeks or so.
Then 100k, 200k, 400k, 800k, 1.6m ... The price will probably go down for many months (or years) to come.
In the meantime there will be many other coins without this flaw that will drive investors away from Zcash.
I think eventually the price will come down to around 0.005 btc.

I doubt that the price will be more rational in future then it was in the "past" - since it launched. What I want to say with that: I believe it will be a pump and dump show for some time. There are big miners involved. All what they have to do is not to sell, maybe in combination with some good news they have foreknowledge about or whatever.

Another thing is Bitcoin. I believe there are three scenarios for BTC for the next time:

1. BTC doesn't move much - usually that means that Alts are manipulated a lot because there is not that much reaction on Bitcoin
2. BTC could shoot up, find a new ATH - Alts would go down first, but once the BTC-bubble would burst, I believe that many Alts that get a lot of attention will do what LTC did in 2013 (not saying that it will be at a bn-marketcap but irrational high - others as well).
3. BTC could go down significantly - Many Alts would increase.


Of course that's not true for all but I believe Zcash will react on Bitcoin since it is one of those coins that get high attention.

Under the line I don't believe in any objectivity or rationalism, especially not when it's about Zcash.

[GrossBit]

This doesn't make sense - gold and silver markets are manipulated DOWNWARD, not upward. I believe this is done via "naked shorting" - currently the infrastructure to naked short bitcoin does not exist. If the Fed prints money to buy up gold or bitcoin, they make it more valuable, and thus more likely to be held.

You are talking about a different effect here.  The "naked shorts" imply a confusion between "paper gold" and genuine gold.  In fact, paper gold is like good ol' fractional banking.  As long as there is a "parity" between an once of paper gold, and of genuine gold, it seems as if this naked shorting is creating gold out of nothing and is causing inflation.  However, this is actually only inflation for paper gold.  When there's a lot of naked shorted gold (paper gold), it is the opportunity to acquire cheap physical gold, because when the bubble bursts, or when it deflates, the whole market cap of paper gold will go to physical gold.  
But this is not the action of the FED.  The action of the FED is to buy gold when it is expensive, and to sell gold when it is cheap.  That sounds like a crazy doctrine, because normally you lose when buying high, and selling low.  But if you can print money at will, that is no problem.  What happens when doing so, is that the FED increases the volatility of gold, and "stabilises" the paper dollar.  In doing so, it pumps effectively the held value in gold into the dollar.  When gold is expensive, its policy makes it even more expensive, meaning that people have to spend a lot of value on the little bit of gold they can acquire.  Later, when the gold price diminishes, the FED throws even more gold on the market, making the gold that people held, less worth, so that they can obtain much less value against it.
For any other agent, this would be a terribly lossy and expensive thing to do, but as the FED can print the money it likes (and is "backed" by the very stuff it is buying), it doesn't cost the FED ziltch doing so.

In fact, the naked shorting of gold counteracts the FED's manipulation.  I'm pretty sure they don't like it.

There's nothing that can stop the FED from doing exactly the same with bitcoin: buying it against printed dollars when it is high and selling it (absorbing dollars) when it is low, increasing its volatility.

The only thing that would make sense to kill bitcoin would be to "corner the market", which will be difficult for even the Fed, given that bitcoin has an $11 billion market cap right now. Remember also that as the USD price of bitcoin goes up, forex arbitrage opportunities present themselves...

Suppose the FED is willing to print $50 billion dollar to "own" bitcoin, what would be the problem ?  It could print 50 billion, buy up all bitcoin, which is then "backing" the printing of those $50 billion.  When the FED has bought 4/5 of all bitcoin, and people have been spending fortunes on the 1/5 that's left, the FED sells its stash of bitcoin all at once, crashing the price.  
All the value that people had been spending on acquiring that 1/5 of bitcoin is now gone (into dollars printed by the FED).

And the cycle can start over.

Value is pumped out of people wanting to store it in bitcoin.  Like value is pumped out of people wanting to store it in gold.

There is no naked shorting of Gold, thats BS.
 
Gold contracts are deliverable. like the US Tbond contract. But usually only a small fraction of Open Interest ends up in delivery. Because most longs in the futures don't want to get delivered anything. so they rollover their positions. Same with sellers. When there is a imbalance, arbitragers come in buy in the cash market and sell in the futures (or do the reverse). Usually arbitrage is a competitive (balance sheet intensive) business, and typically, depending on the cost of balance sheet usage, they would take such a position to make 5$ to 10$ per contract. The cash and futures market are linked by this arbitrage, and if there was a higher price discrepancy, within a few hours, or more likely minutes or seconds the price discrepancy would be closed due to some bank profiting from the arbitrage.

[Snorek]

3) The high mining reward for the team


I'm not so sure about point 3, because in fact also Satoshi has a lot of Bitcoins and other early participants and other big projects do ICO's and so on. But at least it's something that gives not the best impression.

Bitcoin's initial distribution despite what people might thing now w as the most organic cryptocurrency distribution. It doesn't matter that Satoshi controlls over 1 million of BTC.
At that time no one was giving a damn about bitcoin, it was pure speculation that this concept will ever grow, that was the reason bitcoin was basically free, its growth from $0 to something was unprecedented.

After success of BTC developers of every other altcoin knew path of bitcoin and are hoping that their coin will be able to repeat that circle. But instead are caught in pump and dump scheme.

[vlom]

i don't want to start a new topic.

i transferred zec from bitter to my jaxx wallet. the transaction was made more than 2 hours ago and has 39 confirmations.

but there still is nothing in my jaxx wallet.

does it always take that long?

[asriloni]

There are at least 2 or 3 points I'm very critical about when it comes to Zcash, but the inflation is not an issue. It's not higher as it was in Bitcoin when it started and some other coins. The impression of high inflation is a result of the distorted price which is a result of the combination of slow-start (low supply) and hype (high demand). That's why the price was way too high and now it drops to a point where the market sees a faire valuation - wherever that might be. But I doubt it will go 0.005. That would be about $3.5. Won't happen, not even if there is a real worst-case-scenario.

To think about the price one has to think about the marketcap at a certain point of time and how much coins there will be at that point.

But again: That's not a problem. The price had to go down. Or more precise: It never should have been where it was. And the inflation is just like Bitcoin.

I get your point, but at the moment there are only 25k coins, it'll be double that in a few weeks or so.
Then 100k, 200k, 400k, 800k, 1.6m ... The price will probably go down for many months (or years) to come.
In the meantime there will be many other coins without this flaw that will drive investors away from Zcash.
I think eventually the price will come down to around 0.005 btc.

it has possible for zcash, are goes to the another small level of his current rate? It seems like this could have become a bad thing for all who are investing in zcash. But, according to from the polo it was showing the decrease of buy orders volume on zcash, the supply has increased more and more. I may think if zcash will die soon.   Or equal with $5 in btc

[altcoinnxt]

at the start buy the coin now on the hill!
may be ten years late can reach the price again!

[flipme]

This doesn't make sense - gold and silver markets are manipulated DOWNWARD, not upward. I believe this is done via "naked shorting" - currently the infrastructure to naked short bitcoin does not exist. If the Fed prints money to buy up gold or bitcoin, they make it more valuable, and thus more likely to be held.

You are talking about a different effect here.  The "naked shorts" imply a confusion between "paper gold" and genuine gold.  In fact, paper gold is like good ol' fractional banking.  As long as there is a "parity" between an once of paper gold, and of genuine gold, it seems as if this naked shorting is creating gold out of nothing and is causing inflation.  However, this is actually only inflation for paper gold.  When there's a lot of naked shorted gold (paper gold), it is the opportunity to acquire cheap physical gold, because when the bubble bursts, or when it deflates, the whole market cap of paper gold will go to physical gold.  
But this is not the action of the FED.  The action of the FED is to buy gold when it is expensive, and to sell gold when it is cheap.  That sounds like a crazy doctrine, because normally you lose when buying high, and selling low.  But if you can print money at will, that is no problem.  What happens when doing so, is that the FED increases the volatility of gold, and "stabilises" the paper dollar.  In doing so, it pumps effectively the held value in gold into the dollar.  When gold is expensive, its policy makes it even more expensive, meaning that people have to spend a lot of value on the little bit of gold they can acquire.  Later, when the gold price diminishes, the FED throws even more gold on the market, making the gold that people held, less worth, so that they can obtain much less value against it.
For any other agent, this would be a terribly lossy and expensive thing to do, but as the FED can print the money it likes (and is "backed" by the very stuff it is buying), it doesn't cost the FED ziltch doing so.

In fact, the naked shorting of gold counteracts the FED's manipulation.  I'm pretty sure they don't like it.

There's nothing that can stop the FED from doing exactly the same with bitcoin: buying it against printed dollars when it is high and selling it (absorbing dollars) when it is low, increasing its volatility.

The only thing that would make sense to kill bitcoin would be to "corner the market", which will be difficult for even the Fed, given that bitcoin has an $11 billion market cap right now. Remember also that as the USD price of bitcoin goes up, forex arbitrage opportunities present themselves...

Suppose the FED is willing to print $50 billion dollar to "own" bitcoin, what would be the problem ?  It could print 50 billion, buy up all bitcoin, which is then "backing" the printing of those $50 billion.  When the FED has bought 4/5 of all bitcoin, and people have been spending fortunes on the 1/5 that's left, the FED sells its stash of bitcoin all at once, crashing the price.  
All the value that people had been spending on acquiring that 1/5 of bitcoin is now gone (into dollars printed by the FED).

And the cycle can start over.

Value is pumped out of people wanting to store it in bitcoin.  Like value is pumped out of people wanting to store it in gold.

There is no naked shorting of Gold, thats BS.
 
Gold contracts are deliverable. like the US Tbond contract. But usually only a small fraction of Open Interest ends up in delivery. Because most longs in the futures don't want to get delivered anything. so they rollover their positions. Same with sellers. When there is a imbalance, arbitragers come in buy in the cash market and sell in the futures (or do the reverse). Usually arbitrage is a competitive (balance sheet intensive) business, and typically, depending on the cost of balance sheet usage, they would take such a position to make 5$ to 10$ per contract. The cash and futures market are linked by this arbitrage, and if there was a higher price discrepancy, within a few hours, or more likely minutes or seconds the price discrepancy would be closed due to some bank profiting from the arbitrage.

LOL, no naked shorting in Gold? Let me tell you, its naked by a ratio of almost 100:1.
Delivery is the exception, the vaults are empty.
The company controlling it is named "JP Morgan".
The COMEX is their playground, they do whatever they want to drive the price wherever they want.
Its totally rigged.

[jack1111]

it has possible for zcash, are goes to the another small level of his current rate? It seems like this could have become a bad thing for all who are investing in zcash. But, according to from the polo it was showing the decrease of buy orders volume on zcash, the supply has increased more and more. I may think if zcash will die soon.   Or equal with $5 in btc

It won't die, it is just taking its deserved place, because the recent prices were so high. I think the greatest beneficiaries from this coin are the early miners who sold at unusual prices while they were giving promises that this coin will overpass bitcoin.

[flipme]

This doesn't make sense - gold and silver markets are manipulated DOWNWARD, not upward. I believe this is done via "naked shorting" - currently the infrastructure to naked short bitcoin does not exist. If the Fed prints money to buy up gold or bitcoin, they make it more valuable, and thus more likely to be held.

You are talking about a different effect here.  The "naked shorts" imply a confusion between "paper gold" and genuine gold.  In fact, paper gold is like good ol' fractional banking.  As long as there is a "parity" between an once of paper gold, and of genuine gold, it seems as if this naked shorting is creating gold out of nothing and is causing inflation.  However, this is actually only inflation for paper gold.  When there's a lot of naked shorted gold (paper gold), it is the opportunity to acquire cheap physical gold, because when the bubble bursts, or when it deflates, the whole market cap of paper gold will go to physical gold.  
But this is not the action of the FED.  The action of the FED is to buy gold when it is expensive, and to sell gold when it is cheap.  That sounds like a crazy doctrine, because normally you lose when buying high, and selling low.  But if you can print money at will, that is no problem.  What happens when doing so, is that the FED increases the volatility of gold, and "stabilises" the paper dollar.  In doing so, it pumps effectively the held value in gold into the dollar.  When gold is expensive, its policy makes it even more expensive, meaning that people have to spend a lot of value on the little bit of gold they can acquire.  Later, when the gold price diminishes, the FED throws even more gold on the market, making the gold that people held, less worth, so that they can obtain much less value against it.
For any other agent, this would be a terribly lossy and expensive thing to do, but as the FED can print the money it likes (and is "backed" by the very stuff it is buying), it doesn't cost the FED ziltch doing so.

In fact, the naked shorting of gold counteracts the FED's manipulation.  I'm pretty sure they don't like it.

There's nothing that can stop the FED from doing exactly the same with bitcoin: buying it against printed dollars when it is high and selling it (absorbing dollars) when it is low, increasing its volatility.

The only thing that would make sense to kill bitcoin would be to "corner the market", which will be difficult for even the Fed, given that bitcoin has an $11 billion market cap right now. Remember also that as the USD price of bitcoin goes up, forex arbitrage opportunities present themselves...

Suppose the FED is willing to print $50 billion dollar to "own" bitcoin, what would be the problem ?  It could print 50 billion, buy up all bitcoin, which is then "backing" the printing of those $50 billion.  When the FED has bought 4/5 of all bitcoin, and people have been spending fortunes on the 1/5 that's left, the FED sells its stash of bitcoin all at once, crashing the price.  
All the value that people had been spending on acquiring that 1/5 of bitcoin is now gone (into dollars printed by the FED).

And the cycle can start over.

Value is pumped out of people wanting to store it in bitcoin.  Like value is pumped out of people wanting to store it in gold.

There is no naked shorting of Gold, thats BS.
 
Gold contracts are deliverable. like the US Tbond contract. But usually only a small fraction of Open Interest ends up in delivery. Because most longs in the futures don't want to get delivered anything. so they rollover their positions. Same with sellers. When there is a imbalance, arbitragers come in buy in the cash market and sell in the futures (or do the reverse). Usually arbitrage is a competitive (balance sheet intensive) business, and typically, depending on the cost of balance sheet usage, they would take such a position to make 5$ to 10$ per contract. The cash and futures market are linked by this arbitrage, and if there was a higher price discrepancy, within a few hours, or more likely minutes or seconds the price discrepancy would be closed due to some bank profiting from the arbitrage.

LOL, no naked shorting in Gold? Let me tell you, its naked by a ratio of almost 100:1.
Delivery is the exception, the vaults are empty.
The company controlling it is named "JP Morgan".
The COMEX is their playground, they do whatever they want to drive the price wherever they want.
Its totally rigged.

Correction, in May 2016 it was at a ratio of more than 500:1
https://www.moneymetals.com/news/2016/05/16/silver-gold-futures-market-000868

[Kolamider]

at the start buy the coin now on the hill!
may be ten years late can reach the price again!

Do you mean the price could reach 3000 bitcoin again? It is not very possbile. It might reach 0.1 bitcoin in the long term.

[Cavin.Me]

Zcash did it much better then i expected, i have fun mining it whit my big rig and in the cloud.

Which cloud miner did u buy your hash power from? I used all the 3...

a. www.Genesis-Mining.com

b. www.Zcash-Miner.com

c. www.ZeroPond.com

I'd have on good profit by now unless ZeroPond.com so drastically failed to deliver. They had the highest cost and delivered the worst of the lot.

A  www.Genesis-Mining.com, and i have a view rigs running as well.

RocketPie, can you make a comparison video? or review on this site? Love to see that!

ZeroPond is an absolute waste. They are now making thousands of excuses for their bad performance. Both Genesis-Mining & Zcash-Miner are good. The only difference is Zcash-Miner contracts last for 3 months as against Genesis-Mining's 1 year contract. Hence Zcash-Miner contracts cost 1/4^th that of Genesis-Mining. Both are offering free mining in Slow-Start mining period.

Thanks for providing the comparison. It is helpful.

[vlom]

Zcash did it much better then i expected, i have fun mining it whit my big rig and in the cloud.

Which cloud miner did u buy your hash power from? I used all the 3...

a. www.Genesis-Mining.com

b. www.Zcash-Miner.com

c. www.ZeroPond.com

I'd have on good profit by now unless ZeroPond.com so drastically failed to deliver. They had the highest cost and delivered the worst of the lot.

A  www.Genesis-Mining.com, and i have a view rigs running as well.

RocketPie, can you make a comparison video? or review on this site? Love to see that!

ZeroPond is an absolute waste. They are now making thousands of excuses for their bad performance. Both Genesis-Mining & Zcash-Miner are good. The only difference is Zcash-Miner contracts last for 3 months as against Genesis-Mining's 1 year contract. Hence Zcash-Miner contracts cost 1/4^th that of Genesis-Mining. Both are offering free mining in Slow-Start mining period.

Thanks for providing the comparison. It is helpful.

i still can't believe that cloud mining is profitable. how much did you pay and how much did you get back?

EDIT: and after i read this on Zcash-Miner.com

10 Sol/s @ 0.125 BTC for 3 months

i can't believe it. you need an old PC or Mac to get 10 Sol/s.

0.00377812 ZEC mined with an old MacPro 2.8 GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon in 20 hours.

[Astonuse]

Zcash did it much better then i expected, i have fun mining it whit my big rig and in the cloud.

Which cloud miner did u buy your hash power from? I used all the 3...

a. www.Genesis-Mining.com

b. www.Zcash-Miner.com

c. www.ZeroPond.com

I'd have on good profit by now unless ZeroPond.com so drastically failed to deliver. They had the highest cost and delivered the worst of the lot.

A  www.Genesis-Mining.com, and i have a view rigs running as well.

RocketPie, can you make a comparison video? or review on this site? Love to see that!

ZeroPond is an absolute waste. They are now making thousands of excuses for their bad performance. Both Genesis-Mining & Zcash-Miner are good. The only difference is Zcash-Miner contracts last for 3 months as against Genesis-Mining's 1 year contract. Hence Zcash-Miner contracts cost 1/4^th that of Genesis-Mining. Both are offering free mining in Slow-Start mining period.

Thanks for providing the comparison. It is helpful.

i still can't believe that cloud mining is profitable. how much did you pay and how much did you get back?

EDIT: and after i read this on Zcash-Miner.com

10 Sol/s @ 0.125 BTC for 3 months

i can't believe it. you need an old PC or Mac to get 10 Sol/s.

0.00377812 ZEC mined with an old MacPro 2.8 GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon in 20 hours.

That is very expensive. One R9 390 costs about $200 at the moment and it can have aroudn 140H/s.

[Hueristic]

You guys need to read Peter Todds trust setup synopsis.

[ArticMine]

You guys need to read Peter Todds trust setup synopsis.

Here is my post on the subject from Monero speculation.

Peter Todd posted his trusted setup description.  It is long, still reading it.

https://petertodd.org/2016/cypherpunk-desert-bus-zcash-trusted-setup-ceremony

This is a very good read.

There is however a unique Monero twist to all of this. Prince George, BC, Canada. Is literally one of the worst places on earth to dispose of the ZCash toxic waste. There are two members of the Monero core team that are public about their involvement with the Monero project and one of them, yours truly, lives in Prince George BC. I also drove down to Quesnel BC on the 23rd of October on the very highway mentioned in the blog. It goes without saying that many people would consider that I personally could have a significant financial interest in the demise of ZCash, and could very well be motivated to pay well for the ZCash toxic waste.

Appearances are critical here. The following did not happen:
There was a secret meeting in the bush somewhere between Quesnel, BC and Prince George, BC where the ZCash toxic waste was sold to a member of the Monero core team for an undisclosed amount of XMR.  We met deep in the bush to avoid human witnesses to the transaction, while still being in range of the nearest Telus cellular tower for 3G data Internet access. The latter was required in order to able to connect to the Monero network to complete the transaction.

Edit 1: With respect this meets the classic Canadian stereotype of people who live in Toronto, ON, They believe that the rest of the Canadian population are hewers of wood and drawers of water. This been especially the case in places such as Quesnel, BC and Prince George, BC. Oops is an understatement here.  

Edit 2: A Search for Prince George on BCT would have provided the following red flag;

Why do you not simply argue that Moenro's POW is unfair because it discriminates against Americans in favor of Canadians? Furthermore even within the same Canadian province there is also discrimination since those who live in Prince George BC like myself, have an unfair advantage over those who live in Victoria BC. As for those who live in any part of Africa they are really discriminated against. Then there is also religions discrimination. The economics of mining Monero are very different in say Vatican City and Makkah. Jerusalem is somewhere in between.

Edit: This is a classic case where one takes extreme and costly precautions against a minuscule risk, while ignoring a much greater risk that can eliminated with a simple and inexpensive action.