Proof that God exists

[BADecker]

...
That God is shown to exist through these laws does not lie in the simple fact that these laws exist. It lies in the fact that that they cannot exist together in a universe such as ours without God existing.

Why?

I don't know why God made them this way. Perhaps it was simply to leave a record of Himself so that scientists that He knew would exist (because He set their future existence in place through the cause and effect He made) would see that He exists.

You better get yourself saved so that you can ask God this question in Heaven. Otherwise you might never know the answer.

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[arbitrage]

I'm just trying to say there is no place for such beliefs in modern times.
We must return to nature. Only science through constant experiments and
questioning the validity of theories can bring humans to new levels of consciousness and progress.
We must abandon all unnecessary wrong beliefs.

[galdur]

[blackbird307]

Proof denies faith. And we need faith in order to be nice obedient sheep.
Religion is business. Big business. Of course they want it to last and try to brainwash as many people as possible.

[BADecker]

I'm just trying to say there is no place for such beliefs in modern times.
We must return to nature. Only science through constant experiments and
questioning the validity of theories can bring humans to new levels of consciousness and progress.
We must abandon all unnecessary wrong beliefs.

Truth is most important. Why? If you return to nature, and somebody tells you how to do gardening, you want him to tell you the truth about it, don't you?

So what is wrong with knowing the truth that God exists?

People like technology. We wish that we had the ability to teleport. We would like superhuman strength. That's why people go to superhero movies. God has the abilities. I mean, anybody who can create a universe like ours, certainly has abilities beyond superheros.

I say, let's find the truth of God, and find out where He has given us messages about Himself. The start lies in honestly examining the proofs for His existence, and then accepting them.

I mean, maybe He wants to give us all the things that we are trying so hard to get on our own, and all He needs is simple acceptance that He exists.

[blackbird307]

You can't talk about something about which you don't have proof it exists. That's a fact.

[BADecker]

Proof denies faith. And we need faith in order to be nice obedient sheep.
Religion is business. Big business. Of course they want it to last and try to brainwash as many people as possible.

Proof doesn't deny faith. Proof enhances faith. For example.

Let's say you just know you won the lottery. You feel it. You have faith that you won. Your faith is strong.

Then you get a phone call from a stranger you never talked to before, and he says you won the lottery. He says he is part of the lottery personnel, and he is calling you to let you know you won.

Do you really know that you won? Maybe that guy is lying. If he is lying, you didn't win. But your faith is stronger now that you talked to somebody.


Perhaps there are people who can believe that God exists, without having any kind of confirmation. But the confirmation found in the scientific proof, doesn't immediately do away with faith. Why not? Because there are still a lot of things about God that we do not know and must have faith about, even if we know that He exists. So, knowing that He exists, actually strengthens our faith in other areas.

[BADecker]

You can't talk about something about which you don't have proof it exists. That's a fact.

I guess most people can do this. Why did you say it? We know we can do this.

There are a lot of science fiction writers that talk about things that they don't know exist.

[blackbird307]

I don't know for a fact that I've won the lottery until I see the money in my bank account.
I don't need faith. I just need a bank account statement.
That comparison is weak. Try something else.

[BADecker]

I don't know for a fact that I've won the lottery until I see the money in my bank account.
I don't need faith. I just need a bank account statement.
That comparison is weak. Try something else.

Actually, a bank statement could be lying as well. But you have faith in the statement. You need to withdraw the money for proof.

[blackbird307]

I never had once problems with a bank statement.
This is a real thing that I can prove.

You say that if sci-fi writers can talk about fiction that's a justification that you can too? Yes - you're a writer. Fine. But still that doesn't prove God is real.

[BADecker]

I never had once problems with a bank statement.
This is a real thing that I can prove.

Until you prove it, you ahve faith that it is true.

You say that if sci-fi writers can talk about fiction that's a justification that you can too? Yes - you're a writer. Fine. But still that doesn't prove God is real.

Nobody has to accept proof. Proof for something can be shown to a person in a thousand ways. But if he doesn't want to accept it, he doesn't have to. The only time a person really is almost forced to accept a proof is when he is in great pain or great joy. Pain and joy weaken a person's resolve to not accept truth.

Why do you not want to accept the proof that God exists? Is it simply that you are unwilling to accept? Or do you have rebuttals to the proof itself?

[blackbird307]

Oh, so now you don't have to accept proof? That a good one.

Also - I have those bank statements. So they are proof.

Proof means real things - faith means nothing. I believe Star Wars exists. Because I've seen it. No one has seen God.

[BADecker]

Oh, so now you don't have to accept proof? That a good one.

There aren't any stubborn people where you live?

Also - I have those bank statements. So they are proof.

Before you had them in hand, you believed that they were accurate... at least to some extent. Then you received the statements, and your faith was turned into proof.

Proof means real things - faith means nothing. I believe Star Wars exists. Because I've seen it. No one has seen God.

This is why faith is important. Nobody can understand the things of God. We barely can understand that there are things of God. Faith is all we have regarding things of God. The proof that God exists makes our faith in the things God tells us, to be stronger faith.

[blackbird307]

Oh, so now you don't have to accept proof? That a good one.

There aren't any stubborn people where you live?

Also - I have those bank statements. So they are proof.

Before you had them in hand, you believed that they were accurate... at least to some extent. Then you received the statements, and your faith was turned into proof.

Proof means real things - faith means nothing. I believe Star Wars exists. Because I've seen it. No one has seen God.

This is why faith is important. Nobody can understand the things of God. We barely can understand that there are things of God. Faith is all we have regarding things of God. The proof that God exists makes our faith in the things God tells us, to be stronger faith.

Before I had them in hand I believed nothing. I didn't take the bank teller's word for it. I wanted proof. And they gave it to me.

Oh right - the longest argument since religion started: "God is better than all of us. We're all small and stupid. He knows better and doesn't have to justify in front of us." Well I don't have to believe in Him. Point.

[BADecker]

Oh, so now you don't have to accept proof? That a good one.

There aren't any stubborn people where you live?

Also - I have those bank statements. So they are proof.

Before you had them in hand, you believed that they were accurate... at least to some extent. Then you received the statements, and your faith was turned into proof.

Proof means real things - faith means nothing. I believe Star Wars exists. Because I've seen it. No one has seen God.

This is why faith is important. Nobody can understand the things of God. We barely can understand that there are things of God. Faith is all we have regarding things of God. The proof that God exists makes our faith in the things God tells us, to be stronger faith.

Before I had them in hand I believed nothing. I didn't take the bank teller's word for it. I wanted proof. And they gave it to me.

You must have an awfully pessimistic life to not be sure that the bank teller is going to give you your statements until you see that he has.

Oh right - the longest argument since religion started: "God is better than all of us. We're all small and stupid. He knows better and doesn't have to justify in front of us." Well I don't have to believe in Him. Point.

Exactly what I said... you don't have to believe in Him. In the face of the proof that He exists which you can't rebut, you simply are stubborn enough to not believe in Him.

[Moloch]

Proof means real things - faith means nothing. I believe Star Wars exists. Because I've seen it. No one has seen God.

This is why faith is important. Nobody can understand the things of God. We barely can understand that there are things of God. Faith is all we have regarding things of God. The proof that God exists makes our faith in the things God tells us, to be stronger faith.

Faith, by definition, is belief without knowledge...

If you had proof of God, it would no longer require faith... Religion without faith would be science, because it would then be based on fact, not fiction...

[vero]

Oh, so now you don't have to accept proof? That a good one.

There aren't any stubborn people where you live?

Also - I have those bank statements. So they are proof.

Before you had them in hand, you believed that they were accurate... at least to some extent. Then you received the statements, and your faith was turned into proof.

Proof means real things - faith means nothing. I believe Star Wars exists. Because I've seen it. No one has seen God.

This is why faith is important. Nobody can understand the things of God. We barely can understand that there are things of God. Faith is all we have regarding things of God. The proof that God exists makes our faith in the things God tells us, to be stronger faith.

yes Faith is important as it allows you trust people. Faith in God is something some people like although I wouldn't call it important.

[BADecker]

Proof means real things - faith means nothing. I believe Star Wars exists. Because I've seen it. No one has seen God.

This is why faith is important. Nobody can understand the things of God. We barely can understand that there are things of God. Faith is all we have regarding things of God. The proof that God exists makes our faith in the things God tells us, to be stronger faith.

Faith, by definition, is belief without knowledge...

If you had proof of God, it would no longer require faith... Religion without faith would be science, because it would then be based on fact, not fiction...

Existence of God = scientifically proven.
Attributes of God = not proven, therefore if held, held by faith.
Faith in God = faith in proof.

[BADecker]

Proof means real things - faith means nothing. I believe Star Wars exists. Because I've seen it. No one has seen God.

This is why faith is important. Nobody can understand the things of God. We barely can understand that there are things of God. Faith is all we have regarding things of God. The proof that God exists makes our faith in the things God tells us, to be stronger faith.

Faith, by definition, is belief without knowledge...

If you had proof of God, it would no longer require faith... Religion without faith would be science, because it would then be based on fact, not fiction...

Existence of God = scientifically proven.
Attributes of God = not proven, therefore if held, held by faith.
Faith in God = faith in proof.

Existence of God = not proven scientifically
Attributes of God = not proven, therefore if held, held by faith.
Faith in God = faith in God.

Okay. I guess we are down to it. You simply won't accept the proof that God exists.

I am a bit curious why, however. I suspect that you believe other things that are factual. I mean, if you were crossing a railroad track, and you saw a train bearing down on yourself at 60 mph, you would get out of the way as fast as you could. Although God is patient and loving, He can be way more dangerous than a train. And you are disrespectful of the nitroglycerin you are tossing back and forth from hand to hand. How utterly reckless of you.