280 BTC total bets between Micon and mrb (are BFL ASICs real?)

[becoin]

wager that BFL will deliver ASICs in 2013 in escrow.

hahaha... So you are not confident that BFL will deliver ASICs till August 2013? How about September or November 2013?

[BTCOnetime]

Sorry, didnt mean to stir the pot, just in awe I can't get a strait answer, or any at all, from JZ

[Micon]

I hereby once again challenge Bryan Micon to a 100 BTC or 2000 BTC (or any number in between) wager that BFL will deliver ASICs in 2013 in escrow.

declined.    We both won't take the other one's bet.  

Please do not reply any further Josh, let those that want to bet come to terms (and of course) escrow the funds using Mike's awesome btc-address tool.

[Micon]

I will bet 10 coins that this statement is false:

"Butterfly Labs will deliver at least 3 working ASIC devices to customers by 3/20/2013, confirmed via pictures that are mining at an efficiency greater than 350 Mhash/Joule"

If anyone is a serious believer in BFL & their ability to deliver 3+ units 1 month from now and wants to bet on it, I will bet the other side.

We can use C's escrow tool, idk if we even need C anymore - just a trusted escrow

I'll take that bet Micon. Get it set up and let me know.

If you're up for it we can take that bet 5 times (50 BTC total)

Either way, good luck to you!

SysRun, if you would still like to bet I would also like to.
I

[Inaba]

I hereby once again challenge Bryan Micon to a 100 BTC or 2000 BTC (or any number in between) wager that BFL will deliver ASICs in 2013 in escrow.

declined.    We both won't take the other one's bet. 

Please do not reply any further Josh, let those that want to bet come to terms (and of course) escrow the funds using Mike's awesome btc-address tool.

No, you won't take my bet, I will take yours, so long as you back up your lies with the above bet.  But since you are declining, can I assume you are no longer claiming that BFL is a scam?  Or are you going to continue to claim BFL is a scam, yet not back it up with a bet?  I expect a full apology and a public retraction of your claim that BFL is a scam, since you are unwilling to back up your words.

[Micon]

I hereby once again challenge Bryan Micon to a 100 BTC or 2000 BTC (or any number in between) wager that BFL will deliver ASICs in 2013 in escrow.

declined.    We both won't take the other one's bet. 

Please do not reply any further Josh, let those that want to bet come to terms (and of course) escrow the funds using Mike's awesome btc-address tool.

No, you won't take my bet, I will take yours, so long as you back up your lies with the above bet.  But since you are declining, can I assume you are no longer claiming that BFL is a scam?  Or are you going to continue to claim BFL is a scam, yet not back it up with a bet?  I expect a full apology and a public retraction of your claim that BFL is a scam, since you are unwilling to back up your words.

le sigh...

1)  I think BFL is a scam.  It is on you to prove otherwise.  You are the one holding millions in community monies.  You promised product 6+ months ago and continue to delay.  It insults intelligence that you are the one hurling accusations here, as technically you already are a scam and you cannot prove otherwise.

2)  I am a professional gambler.  You may have seen me on ESPN during the WSOP:   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-mBUA-uUDM    The way that we bet with each other, as you can see from the 3 other users that I currently have bets with (totaling over ~ $5,000 USD) that you set terms and then escrow money and wait for the date or action that settles the wager. 

3) If you would like to bet, the only bet I am willing to make with you is for 20 coins each, and I would like to take "false" on the following statement:

"Butterfly Labs will deliver 3+ verified ASIC orders that meet or beat specs of 350+ mhash/joule by 3/20/2013" 

If you would like to wager me 20 coins on "true" to the above statement, We will ask Mike for escrow codes.  Outside of that, there are no other wagers I will make with you.

[Inaba]

I hereby once again challenge Bryan Micon to a 100 BTC or 2000 BTC (or any number in between) wager that BFL will deliver ASICs in 2013 in escrow.

declined.    We both won't take the other one's bet.  

Please do not reply any further Josh, let those that want to bet come to terms (and of course) escrow the funds using Mike's awesome btc-address tool.

No, you won't take my bet, I will take yours, so long as you back up your lies with the above bet.  But since you are declining, can I assume you are no longer claiming that BFL is a scam?  Or are you going to continue to claim BFL is a scam, yet not back it up with a bet?  I expect a full apology and a public retraction of your claim that BFL is a scam, since you are unwilling to back up your words.

le sigh...

1)  I think BFL is a scam.  It is on you to prove otherwise.  You are the one holding millions in community monies.  You promised product 6+ months ago and continue to delay.  It insults intelligence that you are the one hurling accusations here, as technically you already are a scam and you cannot prove otherwise.

2)  I am a professional gambler.  You may have seen me on ESPN during the WSOP:   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-mBUA-uUDM    The way that we bet with each other, as you can see from the 3 other users that I currently have bets with (totaling over ~ $5,000 USD) that you set terms and then escrow money and wait for the date or action that settles the wager.  

3) If you would like to bet, the only bet I am willing to make with you is for 20 coins each, and I would like to take "false" on the following statement:

"Butterfly Labs will deliver 3+ verified ASIC orders that meet or beat specs of 350+ mhash/joule by 3/20/2013"  

If you would like to wager me 20 coins on "true" to the above statement, We will ask Mike for escrow codes.  Outside of that, there are no other wagers I will make with you.

Le sigh...

1) It's called "burden of proof" and it's on YOU.  YOU are the one making the claim, thus YOU are the one require to prove it.  This is a fundamental tenant of making an accusation such as this.

2)  You are a failed professional gambler, not a professional gambler.  But that is neither here nor there.  Your claim is BFL is a scam.  The terms are: BFL is not a scam and will deliver ASICs.  The termination date of the bet is there to facilitate an end date to the bet, not to determine if BFL is a scam or not.  Technically, unless BFL folds up shop and runs away with the money, your accusation is false.  However, out of the goodness of my heart, I am giving you a termination date to the bet can be resolved prior to it's regular resolution period.  

3)  I would like to bet.  Your claim is that BFL is a scam (See your point number 1), therefore the terms of the bet are whether or not BFL is a scam.  The bet you are trying to place is not about whether or not BFL is a scam.  The bet you are trying to place is "When will BFL ship."  These two statements are contradictory and mutually exclusive.  If you think BFL is going to ship at some point, then you do not believe BFL is a scam.  However, if you believe BFL is a scam, then the shipping date is immaterial to this bet.  So trying to force the bet to be based on a shipping date is not betting on whether or not BFL is a scam.

If you would like to bet that BFL is a scam, I will bet with you.  However, since you are refusing to do so, I expect a public apology and retraction of the fact that you think BFL is a scam.  If you are unwilling to bet on this, being a professional gambler and all, you are lying about believing BFL is a scam.  After you apologize and publicly retract your false allegations or you confirm your false allegations in the form of a bet stating as such, I will be happy to enter into the wager you are proposing.  

Until such time as one of the two above mentioned scenarios happen, let it be known that Bryan Micon is a liar and has no evidence to back up his false allegations, in addition, he is unwilling to back up his false allegations in the form of a bet, which is a reasonable form of confirmation given that he is a self admitted "professional gambler."

[MooC Tals]

Did the chips work?

[Puppet]

The more I read Josh' posts, the more one would actually start believing Micon. FFS josh, start acting like a pro. if you were on my payroll Id have you fired just for your immature communication. Well, that and for consistently missing deadlines and breaking promises for the better part of 6 months now, but I guess thats a BFL tradition thats perhaps cherished there.

[FTWbitcoinFTW]

If you think BFL is going to ship at some point, then you do not believe BFL is a scam

THIS

[Micon]

I hereby once again challenge Bryan Micon to a 100 BTC or 2000 BTC (or any number in between) wager that BFL will deliver ASICs in 2013 in escrow.

declined.    We both won't take the other one's bet.  

Please do not reply any further Josh, let those that want to bet come to terms (and of course) escrow the funds using Mike's awesome btc-address tool.

No, you won't take my bet, I will take yours, so long as you back up your lies with the above bet.  But since you are declining, can I assume you are no longer claiming that BFL is a scam?  Or are you going to continue to claim BFL is a scam, yet not back it up with a bet?  I expect a full apology and a public retraction of your claim that BFL is a scam, since you are unwilling to back up your words.

le sigh...

1)  I think BFL is a scam.  It is on you to prove otherwise.  You are the one holding millions in community monies.  You promised product 6+ months ago and continue to delay.  It insults intelligence that you are the one hurling accusations here, as technically you already are a scam and you cannot prove otherwise.

2)  I am a professional gambler.  You may have seen me on ESPN during the WSOP:   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-mBUA-uUDM    The way that we bet with each other, as you can see from the 3 other users that I currently have bets with (totaling over ~ $5,000 USD) that you set terms and then escrow money and wait for the date or action that settles the wager.  

3) If you would like to bet, the only bet I am willing to make with you is for 20 coins each, and I would like to take "false" on the following statement:

"Butterfly Labs will deliver 3+ verified ASIC orders that meet or beat specs of 350+ mhash/joule by 3/20/2013"  

If you would like to wager me 20 coins on "true" to the above statement, We will ask Mike for escrow codes.  Outside of that, there are no other wagers I will make with you.

Le sigh...

1) It's called "burden of proof" and it's on YOU.  YOU are the one making the claim, thus YOU are the one require to prove it.  This is a fundamental tenant of making an accusation such as this.

2)  You are a failed professional gambler, not a professional gambler.  But that is neither here nor there.  Your claim is BFL is a scam.  The terms are: BFL is not a scam and will deliver ASICs.  The termination date of the bet is there to facilitate an end date to the bet, not to determine if BFL is a scam or not.  Technically, unless BFL folds up shop and runs away with the money, your accusation is false.  However, out of the goodness of my heart, I am giving you a termination date to the bet can be resolved prior to it's regular resolution period.  

3)  I would like to bet.  Your claim is that BFL is a scam (See your point number 1), therefore the terms of the bet are whether or not BFL is a scam.  The bet you are trying to place is not about whether or not BFL is a scam.  The bet you are trying to place is "When will BFL ship."  These two statements are contradictory and mutually exclusive.  If you think BFL is going to ship at some point, then you do not believe BFL is a scam.  However, if you believe BFL is a scam, then the shipping date is immaterial to this bet.  So trying to force the bet to be based on a shipping date is not betting on whether or not BFL is a scam.

If you would like to bet that BFL is a scam, I will bet with you.  However, since you are refusing to do so, I expect a public apology and retraction of the fact that you think BFL is a scam.  If you are unwilling to bet on this, being a professional gambler and all, you are lying about believing BFL is a scam.  After you apologize and publicly retract your false allegations or you confirm your false allegations in the form of a bet stating as such, I will be happy to enter into the wager you are proposing.  

Until such time as one of the two above mentioned scenarios happen, let it be known that Bryan Micon is a liar and has no evidence to back up his false allegations, in addition, he is unwilling to back up his false allegations in the form of a bet, which is a reasonable form of confirmation given that he is a self admitted "professional gambler."

1)  I have been extremely clear on what I will or won't bet on.  When a professional bettor offers a bet and it is declined, it is in extremely poor taste to say "ooooooohhhh!!!! you are such a wussy!!! you won't bet me!!!"  Since you are a classless narcissist and natural manipulator of the facts, in your brain it actually makes sense that if I decline your 2000 coin $60,000 vague term'ed wager that I was akin to a scammer.  You can say this while holding millions upon millions in pre-order monies, having missed every deadline for ASICs you have ever posted, having not one but two other companies beat you to market costing your "customers" not only bitcoin but also mental anguish.  The disconnect you have on reality is evident to all with their eyes open.

2)  Let's talk about you now.  Do you have any experience running companies?  First time with COO on your business card?  Let me guess, you aced Harvard and have an MBA from Wharton?  you would have been kicked out of every legitimate company or school for behaving as you do.  No company in their right mind would ever not immediately fire you after seeing how you acted towards a known skeptic at CES.

3) Here is a line to my thread titled "Bryan Micon's Butterfly Labs Scammer Investigation including Josh Zerlan"  --> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=136392.0  This is a scammer investigation thread, not a "here is definitive proof thread."  As with Pirateat40, when there is a magical unicorn like fan-box that is backing something, and the side that has the special something won't tell anyone about it or show any pictures but yeah, keep sending money - that is hard to prove, so you must keep adding a database of circumstantial facts and links like I am building in that thread.

Thanks for stopping by the betting thread on your company Josh.  Oh by the way, the last update says you were going to think about maybe checking up on the bumping facility?  did you ever do that?

[Micon]

If you think BFL is going to ship at some point, then you do not believe BFL is a scam

THIS

oh no.

Right now they are a scam.  At the very least, they are being extremely wreckless by taking unlimited pre-orders and even at this stage buying all the marketing they can each month to maximize monthly cashflow.  In essence, they are gambling your pre-order money on R&D.  This is not a pre-order, there has never been a product.  They are (hopefully if you have a pre-order) gambling your pre-order money to try and make the product.

A responsible company would do a round of funding because there is no guarantee the product will ever be delivered.  By Josh's own admission they are in some stage of development.  After missing the deadline 6 months in a row or more, they continue to act very irresponsibly and take unlimited uncapped pre-orders before a product is developed.  What if the wafer does a waffle or whatever excuse Josh is likely to end up saying was the reason why it failed and that they were ordering another company to do another wafer-caper and just keep waiting and keep shipping pre-orders.  Eventually this will dry up, eventually they will stop posting.

As with the Pirateat40 scandal, there was a very long "waiting period" as I described where marks were "let down easy" then the massive delays and missed deadlines and false promises that the money will come back start. 

BFL is much more complex than Pirateat40.  They had previously shipped FPGAs (although it seems like they were simply buying in bulk, selling to end users) and others have long theorized about ASICs, and now 2 other independent companies have shipped working products - when a new user wants in on the mining race, they are bombarded with BFL ads that say "XXXX gh/s for XXX$" and after the jump it says pre-order, but the site looks nice, there is a presence on the forum, ads in bitcoin magazine, ads on Bitcointalk, ads on google, ads on ask.com, ads everywhere for butterfly labs, a show at CES, it seems like they are acting legitimate if the user doesn't know the full drama going on, the endless missed deadlines, the endless spin, the endless abusive nature of the CEO, the fact that the guy who started the company is a convicted fraudster, etc and etc.

[misterbigg]

It's called "burden of proof" and it's on YOU.  YOU are the one making the claim, thus YOU are the one require to prove it.  This is a fundamental tenant of making an accusation such as this.

Hey jerkoff, I ordered a Jalapeno about a million years ago and I haven't received it yet so as far as I am concerned BFL is a ripoff / scam until I get the device in my hands. The only reason I haven't canceled is because I consider the $149 I paid to be a small-stake gamble.

Short bus much?

[BTCOnetime]

Can't someone report these guys to a government organization for a real investigation?  Like the BBB or something like that?  Not sure who it would be that you report them to; if i had money invested in their FASIC's I would certainly do something like this.

[Inaba]

I have been extremely clear on what I will or won't bet on.  When a professional bettor offers a bet and it is declined, it is in extremely poor taste to say "ooooooohhhh!!!! you are such a wussy!!! you won't bet me!!!"  Since you are a classless narcissist and natural manipulator of the facts, in your brain it actually makes sense that if I decline your 2000 coin $60,000 vague term'ed wager that I was akin to a scammer.  You can say this while holding millions upon millions in pre-order monies, having missed every deadline for ASICs you have ever posted, having not one but two other companies beat you to market costing your "customers" not only bitcoin but also mental anguish.  The disconnect you have on reality is evident to all with their eyes open.

Micon, you are mentally deficient.  You simply can't grasp the situation apparently.  I will take you up on your bet as long as you back up your claim that BFL is a scam.  You are refusing, which demonstrates to me that you are liar and do not even believe your own brand of bullshit.

Here's the bottom line: You are making a claim.  You have nothing to back up this claim.  You are not willing to even stand by your claim through a bet.  The only possibly conclusion one can come to:  Bryan Micon is a liar and a scammer.  Heh.. professional poker player indeed.  No wonder you are a failure.

[becoin]

BFL is a scam!

Soon it'll be 1 year since they begun taking "pre-orders". They deliberately failed to inform their customers that actually they are not customers but investors! They took millions from their investors in "pre-orders" without any obligation! Their only obligation is "Thank you for your money. We'll do what we can whenever we can". This is not company-customer relation. This is company-investor relation!

[mrb]

BFL is a scam!

You contradict yourself, again, because you admitted here that BFL will deliver "something", hence making them not a scam. Being late in delivering a product makes them, at worst, incompetent, but not scammers.

Besides, what financial incentive would the "scammers" have to be late? The later they are, the more the competition steals customers from BFL, and the less money they make (which is kind of the objective #1 of "scamming", ahem...). Gosh, I wish you and others would be more careful in your use of the english language. These misplaced "scam!" accusation are becoming tiring and repetitive.

Bottom line, if you are upset that BFL is late then say "BFL is late!" not "BFL is a scam!".

[becoin]

You contradict yourself, again, because you admitted here that BFL will deliver "something", hence making them not a scam. Being late in delivering a product makes them, at worst, incompetent, but not scammers.

LOL. How do I contradict myself?

After almost a year of delays even my grandma can deliver an ASIC if she collects 20 million from greedy brainless sheeple and outsources every possible aspect of the ASIC creation...

Do you think my grandma won't deserve a scammer tag if she delivers "something"?

[mrb]

becoin, you are ridiculous. You said word for word "BFL is going to deliver something like a bitcoin mining ASIC", which contradicts "BFL is a scam" (because everybody except you interprets it as meaning "BFL will deceive by not delivering anything").

In your very own vocabulary, "is a scam" seems to mean "is late". If that is what you want to complain about then use the adjective "late", not the noun "scam". How many times do I have to explain this?

[MooC Tals]

BFL is incompetent?