What do you think about 9/11 mystery?

[Spendulus]

......you haven't even attempted to refute:

1.  The planes could not impart sufficient kinetic energy to collapse the structures.

2.  Fire fueled by the fuel in the planes and other material in the towers could not have softened the steel structures enough to cause complete structural failure. 
....

No, because we were discussing #3 and #4.  As of now I don't see that we have reached an agreement or a disagreement on #3 and #4.  I await your reply to my post as of this morning.

[BADecker]

Let's say hypothetically that there was a controlled demolition of the twin towers, plus building 7. In that case, then why the hell did planes crash into the towers in the first place, and why did they blow up building 7 too?

It makes absolutely no logical sense to me, why spend more resources on having planes fly into them? And why blow up a third tower when the huge twin towers were already going to fall, no added shock value was added by having building 7 fall too, it seems needless. Think I asked this question earlier in this thread but no-one had a good answer.

As far as I'm concerned, even without delving into the mechanics on whether this could or couldn't have occured, the logic of the controlled demoliton theory is massively flawed.

+1

I've tried and failed to get this very basic subject discussed.  It'd be nice to see internal consistency among the conspiracy theories, but there isn't any.

That's an indication it's more active dis information by groups who are adversaries to the US on the world stage, of course.  They don't need quality theories, just crap repeated over and over to ignorant populations, such as in Jordon, Pakistan and Egypt.

By contrast the JFK killing is a very clean, simple conspiracy theory.  There was one bullet or several; there were several assassins or only one. 

Silverstein and others wanted to take the Towers down. Why? Because the city was condemning them for the asbestos problem. The cost would have been enormous to take them apart the same way that they went up - piece by piece - especially when they would have to be taken down in a way that would protect everyone from the asbestos. The Towers were a problem that nobody could figure a simple way around. The 9/11 deception was the cheapest way.

The planes were necessary to make it look like a terrorist attack. This way they could take the Towers down without all the care and expense, using demolition. In addition, there would be all kinds of other money deals where Silverstein and others could make money if it were a terrorist attack... like insurance deals.

Of course everybody doing the deal, including Silverstein, knew that planes couldn't take the Towers down. But many people would buy into the terrorist attack idea ( some in this forum). So, save money by using demolition and terrorism deception, and getting the job done inexpensively.

Bldg. 7 was supposedly hit by pieces of the Towers, and this is what brought it down. Many people still think this way, even though it has been shown that 7 was barely hit, and that it was emptied before being collapsed by demolition.

[BADecker]

Let's say hypothetically that there was a controlled demolition of the twin towers, plus building 7. In that case, then why the hell did planes crash into the towers in the first place, and why did they blow up building 7 too?

It makes absolutely no logical sense to me, why spend more resources on having planes fly into them? And why blow up a third tower when the huge twin towers were already going to fall, no added shock value was added by having building 7 fall too, it seems needless. Think I asked this question earlier in this thread but no-one had a good answer.

As far as I'm concerned, even without delving into the mechanics on whether this could or couldn't have occured, the logic of the controlled demoliton theory is massively flawed.

.....
Consider a Machiavellian group with political power embroiled in a military-industrial complex, who needs a reason to go to war for the control of oil somewhere that is not a part of the Empire. Is it not plausible that such a group would figure some sort of means to an end to control such a resource that allows for more power?

Got to hand it to you.  That sure sounds like Al Queda and ISIS, doesn't it?

Sure. And why did we (the West) depose Iran's prime minister for the Shah?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27état

Some follow up googling reveals this collection of false flag ops: http://investmentwatchblog.com/updated-list-of-admitted-false-flag-attacks/

Here's one of them...

Wait a minute.

Aren't you engaging in a big logical error?  You point to the USA as engaging or intending to engage in false flag operations.  How about being fair, and extending that to all nations?  That would be more fair and balanced.

Anyway, what's the point?  Noting some false flags historically or noting back room scenario planning is not establishing culpability of the USA for 911.  

How about looking at the actual list of terror plots by Islamic extremists and just dealing with it for what it is?  Over 28,000 such since 2001.  Last 30 days, attacks in 23 countries and 3500 dead or wounded.

Duh....

www.thereligionofpeace.com

Oh, one more thing.  You want to talk about "admitted false flag operations?"  Then how about talking about "Admitted Islamic Terror Operations?"  Which 911 is one of, isn't it?

Perhaps real terrorists were used in 9/11. But that is the point. The 9/11 false flag was just part of the way that money was being made.

There is risk involved in doing an inside job like this. What risk? What if it is ever pinned on you - prison and execution. So, there better be a lot of money in a lot of ways, and a reasonable amount of protection. Iraq (which had nothing to do with 9/11) was targeted as the perpetrator. And we fell for it, and are still falling for it. Saddam Hussein (truly a bad guy) was pulled out of his land, and executed illegally, all to help cover up the 9/11 inside job.

[Spendulus]

...
Silverstein and others wanted to take the Towers down. ....

So it was the Evil Jewwssss?  Not the Evil US Government?

lol....

[BADecker]

I think it happened, it is not to be forgotten but the story is done.. period.

Not as long as Islamic disinformation campaigns continue to vomit propaganda such as the USA and or Israel were the real culprits behind 911 because, you know, "Islam is a religion of peace."

The nature of propaganda is that it is propagated by naive gullible people, who likely are not related to the source of the propaganda.

Propaganda --> propagated

And the propaganda that 9/11 was NOT an inside job is of the worst kind.   

[BADecker]

...
Silverstein and others wanted to take the Towers down. ....

So it was the Evil Jewwssss?  Not the Evil US Government?

lol....

There may have been many reasons for the perpetrators doing the 9/11 thing. Just because you see the name "Silverstein," you start to pull the logic apart by claiming it was the Jews, meaning all the Jews, when it may have been only one or two Jews.

Your disinformation campaign is constantly operated like this, and you start to get like this because your campaign is falling apart not only at the seams, but everywhere.

[BADecker]

.... a few people have answered the WTC7 problem with the generic "It was about the money/Enron case/insurance" blah blah blah, but I don't buy any of it. .....

All anyone needs to do to understand WTC7 collapse is look at the Wikipedia entry that describes the hollowed out interior and weakened structure of that building.

Curiously, although people seem willing to blame the US government for a massive conspiracy involving hundreds of ninjas planting explosives, nobody has mentioned as a possible cause simple engineering error and/or cost minimization.

If concrete structures collapse in Russia when there's an earthquake, people immediately ascribe cause to corruption producing lower grade concrete that specified.

IIRC the New Orleans levees failed due to lower grade materials being used than specified.... 

You can't even say what you want to say correctly. Buildings don't simply hollow themselves out for the fun of it. Termites do hollow steel and concrete buildings out. Rust doesn't do it. The only thing that hollows buildings out is explosives.

[Spendulus]

.... a few people have answered the WTC7 problem with the generic "It was about the money/Enron case/insurance" blah blah blah, but I don't buy any of it. .....

All anyone needs to do to understand WTC7 collapse is look at the Wikipedia entry that describes the hollowed out interior and weakened structure of that building.

Curiously, although people seem willing to blame the US government for a massive conspiracy involving hundreds of ninjas planting explosives, nobody has mentioned as a possible cause simple engineering error and/or cost minimization.

If concrete structures collapse in Russia when there's an earthquake, people immediately ascribe cause to corruption producing lower grade concrete that specified.

IIRC the New Orleans levees failed due to lower grade materials being used than specified.... 

You can't even say what you want to say correctly. Buildings don't simply hollow themselves out for the fun of it. Termites do hollow steel and concrete buildings out. Rust doesn't do it. The only thing that hollows buildings out is explosives.

You don't know what you are talking about.  Numerous interior floors of WTC7 were removed to create huge interior "atriums."

[BADecker]

...
Actually what, happened there?

It is impossible to know what happened.  Everyone involved is dead.  People who say they know what happened are old with unreliable memories.  They all have different contradictory stories.

The point is how we got to those contradictory stories.

In a disaster like this, government should have bought up gigantic fields outside of New York, and taken all the parts of the Towers and Bldg. 7 out there for complete examination, just like they do in any jet liner crash. And this should have been even more important that any other jet crash that was ever investigated.

The point isn't what we don't know. We know enough. The point is who did the cover-up and why.

[Spendulus]

...
Silverstein and others wanted to take the Towers down. ....

So it was the Evil Jewwssss?  Not the Evil US Government?

lol....

There may have been many reasons for the perpetrators doing the 9/11 thing. Just because you see the name "Silverstein," you start to pull the logic apart by claiming it was the Jews, meaning all the Jews, when it may have been only one or two Jews.

So it was the Evil Jeeewwwwssss?

[BADecker]

.... a few people have answered the WTC7 problem with the generic "It was about the money/Enron case/insurance" blah blah blah, but I don't buy any of it. .....

All anyone needs to do to understand WTC7 collapse is look at the Wikipedia entry that describes the hollowed out interior and weakened structure of that building.

Curiously, although people seem willing to blame the US government for a massive conspiracy involving hundreds of ninjas planting explosives, nobody has mentioned as a possible cause simple engineering error and/or cost minimization.

If concrete structures collapse in Russia when there's an earthquake, people immediately ascribe cause to corruption producing lower grade concrete that specified.

IIRC the New Orleans levees failed due to lower grade materials being used than specified.... 

You can't even say what you want to say correctly. Buildings don't simply hollow themselves out for the fun of it. Termites do hollow steel and concrete buildings out. Rust doesn't do it. The only thing that hollows buildings out is explosives.

You don't know what you are talking about.  Numerous interior floors of WTC7 were removed to create huge interior "atriums."

You don't know what you are talking about. Anyone who does this, does it with a thought towards structural integrity.

[BADecker]

...
Silverstein and others wanted to take the Towers down. ....

So it was the Evil Jewwssss?  Not the Evil US Government?

lol....

There may have been many reasons for the perpetrators doing the 9/11 thing. Just because you see the name "Silverstein," you start to pull the logic apart by claiming it was the Jews, meaning all the Jews, when it may have been only one or two Jews.

So it was the Evil Jeeewwwwssss?

One or two of them, and several other evil people as well, and maybe many evil people of many different nationalities. However, if Arab terrorists were involved, they were the least part of the problem.

[BADecker]

.....neither he nor anyone else can explain why the resistance of the structure did not interfere with the free-fall accelerations observed.  That's about as basic as basic physics gets.  

....

I thought we had agreed on four arguments to be debated.  #4 was the issue of "free fall."  Quoting from #368,

I assume, but am not certain that this is a response to my comment on #4 and not a response to #3?  Because NO, I had not started arguing the issue of #4.  I was only expressing that I am puzzled at looking at the claims relating to it.

I'm not seeing support for #4 either in the video of the towers collapse, the seismic records, or in the math and structural stuff.....

So do you want to talk about #4?  Are you satisfied with my view on #3 or not?



#4 is an assertion, and why I am puzzled is that the facts don't even seem to support it.  Please explain why the seismic record supports #4?  I can't see it.  Given the huge amounts of dust obscuring the visuals, I assume the seismic record presents an integration of the fall dynamics.  Further if you can use English words to say this "why the resistance of the structure did not interfere with the free-fall accelerations observed," then please use English words or formulas to describe the basis of this assertion #4 instead of a dozen Youtube links which would take six hours to plough through, lol...

Include margin of errors if possible.

Thanks.

The point isn't a debate. The point is that 9/11 was an inside job.   

[BADecker]

....
Of course debris would fall and spread out a little bit, but not eject laterally 600 feet. With every foot you extend the lateral movement, you are requiring MORE FORCE to eject it. You are acting like the difference between moving a 4 ton section of steel 5 feet and moving it 600 feet is a moot point. It is not, every foot that 4-ton object goes requires exponential amounts more of energy to move it. You are just rephrasing the same explanations that I have disproved using the laws of physics, over and over again. You still are offering no explanation for the lateral ejection force or action sufficient enough to eject 4-ton sections of steel 600 feet laterally (other than what you have already said several times now). .....

See bolded above.  You are wrong.  For a given speed, the movement sideways is a simple function of time.  We agreed on 21 meters per second as a velocity.  That speed imparted to your 4 ton section of steel will move it the 600 feet in 10 seconds.  (sure this is ignoring atmospheric friction but that will have no effect on a massive piece of steel)

All I did was show that that energy was 0.2% of the potential energy of the beam, and ask why such a small percentage could not reasonable be thought to be translated into sideways movement.  You accept that there were debris fields extending out 600 feet.  Why is the problem any different for small pieces of rubble as opposed to a 4 ton girder?

......you haven't even attempted to refute:

1.  The planes could not impart sufficient kinetic energy to collapse the structures.

2.  Fire fueled by the fuel in the planes and other material in the towers could not have softened the steel structures enough to cause complete structural failure. 
....

No, because we were discussing #3 and #4.  As of now I don't see that we have reached an agreement or a disagreement on #3 and #4.  I await your reply to my post as of this morning.

What you are saying is a bunch of blabber, designed to draw the attention away from the fact that without demolition, the towers would have toppled if they came down at all... which in itself is highly unlikely.

[Spendulus]

.... a few people have answered the WTC7 problem with the generic "It was about the money/Enron case/insurance" blah blah blah, but I don't buy any of it. .....

All anyone needs to do to understand WTC7 collapse is look at the Wikipedia entry that describes the hollowed out interior and weakened structure of that building.

Curiously, although people seem willing to blame the US government for a massive conspiracy involving hundreds of ninjas planting explosives, nobody has mentioned as a possible cause simple engineering error and/or cost minimization.

If concrete structures collapse in Russia when there's an earthquake, people immediately ascribe cause to corruption producing lower grade concrete that specified.

IIRC the New Orleans levees failed due to lower grade materials being used than specified.... 

You can't even say what you want to say correctly. Buildings don't simply hollow themselves out for the fun of it. Termites do hollow steel and concrete buildings out. Rust doesn't do it. The only thing that hollows buildings out is explosives.

You don't know what you are talking about.  Numerous interior floors of WTC7 were removed to create huge interior "atriums."

You don't know what you are talking about. Anyone who does this, does it with a thought towards structural integrity.

Oh.  Got it.  Darn.  Last I heard from my friends in NYC their interactions with building officials and code enforcement was all about brides and payoffs.  I guess everyone is wrong but you. 

Since these Evilll Jeeeewwwwssss, according to you at least were the central characters you don't think they just took money to approve the mods to WTC7?

I mean, you can just blame everything on them, right?  And of course evil Muslim terrorists either weren't involved or were minor players.  Well, you heard it here first.  BinLaden, secretly a Jewish Terrorist.

<<sarcasm>>

[BADecker]

.... a few people have answered the WTC7 problem with the generic "It was about the money/Enron case/insurance" blah blah blah, but I don't buy any of it. .....

All anyone needs to do to understand WTC7 collapse is look at the Wikipedia entry that describes the hollowed out interior and weakened structure of that building.

Curiously, although people seem willing to blame the US government for a massive conspiracy involving hundreds of ninjas planting explosives, nobody has mentioned as a possible cause simple engineering error and/or cost minimization.

If concrete structures collapse in Russia when there's an earthquake, people immediately ascribe cause to corruption producing lower grade concrete that specified.

IIRC the New Orleans levees failed due to lower grade materials being used than specified....  

You can't even say what you want to say correctly. Buildings don't simply hollow themselves out for the fun of it. Termites do hollow steel and concrete buildings out. Rust doesn't do it. The only thing that hollows buildings out is explosives.

You don't know what you are talking about.  Numerous interior floors of WTC7 were removed to create huge interior "atriums."

You don't know what you are talking about. Anyone who does this, does it with a thought towards structural integrity.

Oh.  Got it.  Darn.  Last I heard from my friends in NYC their interactions with building officials and code enforcement was all about brides and payoffs.  I guess everyone is wrong but you.  

Since these Evilll Jeeeewwwwssss, according to you at least were the central characters you don't think they just took money to approve the mods to WTC7?

I mean, you can just blame everything on them, right?  And of course evil Muslim terrorists either weren't involved or were minor players.  Well, you heard it here first.  BinLaden, secretly a Jewish Terrorist.

<<sarcasm>>

Now we can all see your hypocrisy. You are trying to take the focus off the 9/11 inside job fact, by making it look like I am focusing on some Jews, when I am not. The "evil Jew" thing was your idea. You don't have any strength in your 9/11 discussion, so now you have to focus elsewhere.

As we go along in this discussion - and in areas you participate in within the whole forum - it is becoming more and more apparent that you are a government propagandist. How much are you getting paid to spread your disinformation?



EDIT: I really need to go back to the forum areas where we seem to agree, just to make sure that I haven't missed something in what I understand as truth. I mean, if you said it, it just might be propaganda.

[Spendulus]

.... a few people have answered the WTC7 problem with the generic "It was about the money/Enron case/insurance" blah blah blah, but I don't buy any of it. .....

All anyone needs to do to understand WTC7 collapse is look at the Wikipedia entry that describes the hollowed out interior and weakened structure of that building.

Curiously, although people seem willing to blame the US government for a massive conspiracy involving hundreds of ninjas planting explosives, nobody has mentioned as a possible cause simple engineering error and/or cost minimization.

If concrete structures collapse in Russia when there's an earthquake, people immediately ascribe cause to corruption producing lower grade concrete that specified.

IIRC the New Orleans levees failed due to lower grade materials being used than specified....  

You can't even say what you want to say correctly. Buildings don't simply hollow themselves out for the fun of it. Termites do hollow steel and concrete buildings out. Rust doesn't do it. The only thing that hollows buildings out is explosives.

You don't know what you are talking about.  Numerous interior floors of WTC7 were removed to create huge interior "atriums."

You don't know what you are talking about. Anyone who does this, does it with a thought towards structural integrity.

Oh.  Got it.  Darn.  Last I heard from my friends in NYC their interactions with building officials and code enforcement was all about brides and payoffs.  I guess everyone is wrong but you.  

Since these Evilll Jeeeewwwwssss, according to you at least were the central characters you don't think they just took money to approve the mods to WTC7?

I mean, you can just blame everything on them, right?  And of course evil Muslim terrorists either weren't involved or were minor players.  Well, you heard it here first.  BinLaden, secretly a Jewish Terrorist.

<<sarcasm>>

Now we can all see your hypocrisy. You are trying to take the focus off the 9/11 inside job fact, by making it look like I am focusing on some Jews, when I am not. The "evil Jew" thing was your idea. You don't have any strength in your 9/11 discussion, so now you have to focus elsewhere.

As we go along in this discussion - and in areas you participate in within the whole forum - it is becoming more and more apparent that you are a government propagandist. How much are you getting paid to spread your disinformation?



EDIT: I really need to go back to the forum areas where we seem to agree, just to make sure that I haven't missed something in what I understand as truth. I mean, if you said it, it just might be propaganda.

Sure, buddy. 

Anyone that doesn't disagree with you on the subject of whether the evil Jeeewwwsss did 911 is a government propagandist.  Anyone that suggests actual physics and chemistry be used to look at issues such as dynamics of falling buildings is a government propagandist.  Anyone who says Muslims played more than a insignificant role in 911 is a government propagandist.

I agree with all the above except just insert "Saudi Arabia, Pakistan or Iran" for the term "government."

[BADecker]

.... a few people have answered the WTC7 problem with the generic "It was about the money/Enron case/insurance" blah blah blah, but I don't buy any of it. .....

All anyone needs to do to understand WTC7 collapse is look at the Wikipedia entry that describes the hollowed out interior and weakened structure of that building.

Curiously, although people seem willing to blame the US government for a massive conspiracy involving hundreds of ninjas planting explosives, nobody has mentioned as a possible cause simple engineering error and/or cost minimization.

If concrete structures collapse in Russia when there's an earthquake, people immediately ascribe cause to corruption producing lower grade concrete that specified.

IIRC the New Orleans levees failed due to lower grade materials being used than specified....  

You can't even say what you want to say correctly. Buildings don't simply hollow themselves out for the fun of it. Termites do hollow steel and concrete buildings out. Rust doesn't do it. The only thing that hollows buildings out is explosives.

You don't know what you are talking about.  Numerous interior floors of WTC7 were removed to create huge interior "atriums."

You don't know what you are talking about. Anyone who does this, does it with a thought towards structural integrity.

Oh.  Got it.  Darn.  Last I heard from my friends in NYC their interactions with building officials and code enforcement was all about brides and payoffs.  I guess everyone is wrong but you.  

Since these Evilll Jeeeewwwwssss, according to you at least were the central characters you don't think they just took money to approve the mods to WTC7?

I mean, you can just blame everything on them, right?  And of course evil Muslim terrorists either weren't involved or were minor players.  Well, you heard it here first.  BinLaden, secretly a Jewish Terrorist.

<<sarcasm>>

Now we can all see your hypocrisy. You are trying to take the focus off the 9/11 inside job fact, by making it look like I am focusing on some Jews, when I am not. The "evil Jew" thing was your idea. You don't have any strength in your 9/11 discussion, so now you have to focus elsewhere.

As we go along in this discussion - and in areas you participate in within the whole forum - it is becoming more and more apparent that you are a government propagandist. How much are you getting paid to spread your disinformation?



EDIT: I really need to go back to the forum areas where we seem to agree, just to make sure that I haven't missed something in what I understand as truth. I mean, if you said it, it just might be propaganda.

Sure, buddy. 

Anyone that doesn't disagree with you on the subject of whether the evil Jeeewwwsss did 911 is a government propagandist.  Anyone that suggests actual physics and chemistry be used to look at issues such as dynamics of falling buildings is a government propagandist.  Anyone who says Muslims played more than a insignificant role in 911 is a government propagandist.

I agree with all the above except just insert "Saudi Arabia, Pakistan or Iran" for the term "government."

So, now you are emphasizing that you think that some Jews did 9/11? Make up your mind. First it is Arabs, terrorists. Now you say that it is Jews, terrorists. Then in the next paragraph you say it is Arabs, again.

You don't even know what you are talking about right in a single post.

My bad. I had though you were a propagandist. Now we are seeing that you are a "funny farm" resident.

[Spendulus]

......
....

My bad. I had though you were a propagandist. Now we are seeing that you are a "funny farm" resident.

If i understand your rants correctly, anyone who disagrees with you about the Jews being responsible for 911 is a pro US Government propagandist.  But wouldn't they really be a pro Jew propagandist?  Or is the US gov in on the thing with the Jews?

Anti-US propaganda in the Middle East and the Islamic world has been a constant reality for the last fifty years.  The "Great Satan," the Evil Jews, etc.  Aren't you just one more of these voices? 

[BADecker]

......
....

My bad. I had though you were a propagandist. Now we are seeing that you are a "funny farm" resident.

If i understand your rants correctly, anyone who disagrees with you about the Jews being responsible for 911 is a pro US Government propagandist.  But wouldn't they really be a pro Jew propagandist?  Or is the US gov in on the thing with the Jews?

Anti-US propaganda in the Middle East and the Islamic world has been a constant reality for the last fifty years.  The "Great Satan," the Evil Jews, etc.  Aren't you just one more of these voices? 

Since all you want to do with your blabber is lead folks away from the truth that 9/11 was an inside job, almost anything you say is designed to, simply, blab.

Now, 'cause you can't seem to find any real facts in favor of your blabbing, you start to turn this 9/11 thing into a religious war between Jews and Arabs.