[PicoStocks] 100TH/s bitcoin mine [100th]

[furuknap]

My personal answer is that he did it with good intent. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and should proceed accordingly. There is no "one truth".

So fucking up the market is OK as long as one person thought it was a good idea? Great.

Everyone, buy my lottery tickets! Oh, and I'll donate a part to charity, because if my intentions are good, everything is OK.

.b

EDIT: BTW, most of the civilized world has strict regulations to prevent this kind of event. I know, I know, we're crypto anarchists and all that cool shit, but did anyone stop for a moment and think that there may be a good idea behind those regulations too and not the the man sticking it to us all?

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[HeRetiK]

@furuknap: alright, i don't know you and shouldn't make assumptions about your personal motives. sorry about that.

it's just that IMO the 100TH shares are in danger of heading towards unsustainable levels because of too many people doing too little research. unsustainable because other options offer the same potential value for the same risk (other than there being other intermediaries) for a fraction of the price. it's like offering TAT.ASICMINER for half the price of a full Asicminer share because your buyer doesn't know the market.

now i don't want a market that gets controlled by major forces either. i just don't think the whole buy low sell sky high attitude that we see much too often is going to do us any good.


disclosure: i own a few shares, but not many. i bought in mainly for the mining opportunity as a hedge against other mining projects and not for the resale of shares. my stakes are set, i don't care for the price to go either way, i just hope for the project to succeed in time.

[Vbs]

My personal answer is that he did it with good intent. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion and should proceed accordingly. There is no "one truth".

So fucking up the market is OK as long as one person thought it was a good idea? Great.

Everyone, buy my lottery tickets! Oh, and I'll donate a part to charity, because if my intentions are good, everything is OK.

.b

EDIT: BTW, most of the civilized world has strict regulations to prevent this kind of event. I know, I know, we're crypto anarchists and all that cool shit, but did anyone stop for a moment and think that there may be a good idea behind those regulations too and not the the man sticking it to us all?

Saying the market is "fucked" is still your personal opinion. You are entitled to it ofc, but not everyone must agree to it.

I also think there are pretty good and valid reasons for several of the regulations to prevent this and other kind of events. But they must be explicit and not implicit.

Why don't you make an article about the "basic" explicit regulations that bitcoin exchanges/asset issuers should comply? That would certainly be a good starting point for further debate on this whole issue (that is not limited to 100TH only).

[Luckybit]

If you're talking about today's event, he pulled the wall before it was hit. If you're talking about the walls in May, he only stopped adding more once I (and others) yelled at him for it, which prompted the promise of 'never again!' that was broken today.

Not talking about today's wall. I was talking about the ~0.2 walls that were bought up quite quickly. Yes, he did stop after people on the forum complained.

Serious question...if tytus put a block of 10000 shares are at the IPO price on the market today, would you be happy or sad? My answer is...I would be ELATED and I've bought a lot of shares above the IPO price.

Sure, and people know that there's no point in buying anything above that price because tytus may just as well throw more bonds on the market at that price.

However, if tutys the day after told you that 'Sorry, we couldn't get the chips to work, your bonds are now worthless' would you be equally elated? When that is a real risk that you are assuming, you want some kind of reward if that risk turns out to work in your favor.

Again, look at my proposal. you can buy a bond/ticket from me for 3BTC. It may turn into 3.1 or even 3.5 if the cows don't come home at all, but it may also turn into zero. How many do you want?

I'm guessing your lack of "Wow, give me 100!" is less due to your lack of funds and more because you realize that assuming the risk of losing everything is not worth the potential upside of just 0.1 or 0.5.

Now, why would you be OK with this scenario if the numbers were slightly different, say 0.30 and 0.31 and 0.35 instead? Because that's exactly what you're saying; you assume all the risk for minute potential reward but only because in the case of 100TH we're talking about slightly different numbers. The upside has been capped today by tytus.

The primary reward is the dividend. I'm buying a share of hosted mining. NOT speculation that the value of my shares will go up.

Let me ask you this; what would you say if friedcat came out tomorrow and said "Sorry, we really don't have confidence that AM will ever make much more than 1BTC so here are 10,000 shares at 1BTC put on the market". How do you think investors now buying at 3BTC would think? Would that be a reasonable and defendable action because, you know, it's his shares and stuff?

.b

That is not what tytus did, right? In fact, he posted some positive news (in his mind). What would be the market's reaction if friedcat announced he was going to sell any shares? Regardless of his motivations. If friedcat said he wanted to cash out some shares for liquidity but the company was still sound, would you take him at his word or would you speculate that the company is going down? Some people would take him at his word, some would panic. I'm not saying it'd be an easy decision to pick a side in that case, but putting on a tin-foil hat will either prove foolish or genius...most people don't have a crystal ball.

So tytus put 5000 shares for sale at 0.4 (a bit above the lowest ask -- above the all time high). If you think shares are worth more than 0.4 then he did you a favor because now you can buy more. If they are worth less than 0.4 shares...well first people need to buy through the lower asks then start buying into his wall. As you said the wall could be an indication that tytus feels this is a ceiling, so buyers should be wary...anyone that buys at these levels should be acutely aware of the risk they are taking (because of the wall).

I believe you're most dismayed at the fact that tytus put a potential cap on share price and he is limiting your upside in terms of share price. Let me ask you this. What are you buying in this security? From the business plan, it was clear to me that I was buying hashing power. This is as if I was buying hosted Avalons or BFL machines. The primary reason for buying shares is to earn income from the hashing power. A secondary side-effect of listing shares on an exchange is that others would be able to bid on my purchased hashing power. I understand that when you bought into this security, one of your primary variables was share price and that is a valid variable to include. However, the primary variable should have been mining income.

If you read "Simplified Exit" part of the business plan, it states that Picostocks makes it easier for people to disinvest from mining technology. The section also states that shares prices will "likely" increase around the time of deployment, but I interpret the document as meaning...prices of your shares might or might not increase. The document also states that value of the shares will quickly diminish over time. Again, this information indicates to me that the primary value of the shares should be the dividends rather than banking on an increase in share price.

I understand you're not pleased with a (perceived) cap on share price, but IMO you were using the wrong variable to calculate returns.

So let me get this right, they are offering just over 2 Ghash/s for just over $400?

In my opinion it's not worth the expense at that price. We should get more like 6 Ghash/s.

100TH is a bubble. Buyers beware.

[Luckybit]

i think the 0.4 BTC ask wall is a fair move. there's already more than enough unfounded speculation going on and an ask wall at 0.4BTC gives still enough headroom for profit if you're only in it to speculate with shares.

Either you have no idea how a stock market works or you're just trying to further manipulate the market. This isn't a fair move, it is a catastrophe.

I'm happy I got a good rise from my 'investment' but when I'm held back in the potential reward I can get in an open market simply because the issuer doesn't think the market knows what it's doing and want to control that, I can't be on board anymore. I'm taking my profits and walking out.

I really can't see why people would want to invest more risk into this asset as it's clear that their reward for doing so will be taken away by the exchange.

.b

It's a catastrophe if you are planning to pump and dump. For long term holders who want to buy hash rate it's better.

I wont be touching this bond. I can see now it's only going to be dumped once you and others get to a certain amount of profit. Good for speculators but for people who want dividends stick with ASICminer.

[bulltrap]

i think the 0.4 BTC ask wall is a fair move. there's already more than enough unfounded speculation going on and an ask wall at 0.4BTC gives still enough headroom for profit if you're only in it to speculate with shares.

Either you have no idea how a stock market works or you're just trying to further manipulate the market. This isn't a fair move, it is a catastrophe.

I'm happy I got a good rise from my 'investment' but when I'm held back in the potential reward I can get in an open market simply because the issuer doesn't think the market knows what it's doing and want to control that, I can't be on board anymore. I'm taking my profits and walking out.

I really can't see why people would want to invest more risk into this asset as it's clear that their reward for doing so will be taken away by the exchange.

.b

It's a catastrophe if you are planning to pump and dump. For long term holders who want to buy hash rate it's better.

I wont be touching this bond. I can see now it's only going to be dumped once you and others get to a certain amount of profit. Good for speculators but for people who want dividends stick with ASICminer.

How do you think the asicminer share value will develop when competitors start selling miners with 65nm techonology? I think that's going to affect their hardware sales. Asicminer currently has around 30Thash deployed which equates to 75Mhash per share and one share costs ~3BTC. On 100Thash you are getting 200Mhash from a 0.4BTC share. For asicminer to deploy 100Thash it will require a lot more resources because the power consumption of their chips is over 10 times more than the bitfury chip.

If 100Thash will be deployed on the next month the dividend for the first month will likely be near 0.1BTC per share. Based on that 0.4BTC per share price doesn't seem really high to me.

[circuitry]

So let me get this right, they are offering just over 2 Ghash/s for just over $400?

In my opinion it's not worth the expense at that price. We should get more like 6 Ghash/s.

100TH is a bubble. Buyers beware.

People are paying up to $300 for a 0.3 Ghash/s Block Erupter USB, so don't be surprised if 100TH shares reach 2x or even 3x their current price.

Breaking even will be heavily dependent on 1) how soon 100TH comes online and 2) the BTCUSD exchange rate during the first six months after that.

[MPOE-PR]

I'll be blunt. At this point, I see now way for an extremely long time to rebuild the confidence of investors. If 100TH is still to be a viable asset, several things must happen.

1) 100TH is delisted from pico.
2) 100TH is listed on another exchange where tutys has no controlling interest
3) The shares controlled by tytus are put in escrow, only to be put on market after the escrow has ensured the rules set forward by tytus (and possibly the exchange) has been followed (for example 48 hour notice, declaration of price in advance, any exchange-specific regulations if any, etc)

Whether pico surives is actually not very relevant to 100TH, but I can't see an exchange operated by tytus being possible in the foresesable future.

I'll post an article in the coming days explaining my thoughts on this event and what happened in May. Tytus, I encourage you do contact me (DM) if you want to voice your side of it as part of that article. I will publish anything relevant and give you an early review of the content.

.b

Far as I can see, you're here to scam. The reasons are quite simply:

1. You're nobody, I couldn't tell you from Adam. Tytus, what's that. Wot? The cost to make you, entirely, is about fiddy cent. (Sure, you may or may not be related to Leszek Rychlewski, who'd be a moderately cited biology researcher. On the strength of your presentation that connection is not worth investigating.)

2. You came up with what you call an exchange, for no apparent reason. It doesn't exchange anything. The worthless assurances of some Marshall Islands shell "repaying" anyone for anything are of no value and no interest.

3. You came up with a scam for that exchange, specifically, an imaginary set of 1000 boards that Tom was selling you (in spite of bASIC not making that many boards to begin with and you not being anywhere on the lists of people that ordered).

I did point out to you then you're lying through your teeth, and your response was that *I* should check up on your claims. No receipts, no proof of anything. You could be Inaba if we didn't already have an idiot by that name around.

Conveniently enough for you Tom blew up, and so you're roughly in the situation of the various scammers operating out of GLBSE: they get to pretend like it was all Nefario's fault. Oh, yes, I forgot, you lost a million dollars with the bASIC blow-up, how fortunate for us that you're so cavalier about that disaster, picked yourself up and are back for more. Innit easy to get through due diligence for imaginary fortunes and imaginary investments? How strange that Tom never had half that much money to refund in the first place.

4. You came up with a slightly larger piece of bs. Who is bitfury? Oh, wait, nevermind, "BitFury Group facilitating development of BitCoin-related software, hardware and services". Great. They made a splash last summer with their insane "licensing" deal. Meanwhile they draw 7MW per Gh or something like that, and nobody (including the manufacturer) even knows what the units cost. Let alone that there were a grand total of two units built overall, during the entire 10 month lifetime of the project. As a bonus, MegaBigPower.com is some bs site registered two weeks ago, in no position to "operate" anything whatsoever. To make it perfectly clear: 100 TH made out of bitfuries is much like an aircraft carrier made out of old refurbished Ford Model Ts: not seaworthy.

5. If you think that is a business plan you have absolutely never either seen one or done business.

I get that you think Bitcoiners are idiots, and most are. The important point is that those who are have no BTC, and those who still have BTC aren't idiots. Your deluded notions that anyone will actually put as much as fifty dollars into this patent nonsense is about as amusing as the idiocy coming from the bitfinex corner. I get that you think you can buddy-buddy and "act professional" and it'll wash like it has in the past. You're wrong. It won't.

To quote my ever-watchful boss,

Pack it and move. This is your only warning, and quite frankly I have no ideea why warnings are even necessary. Bitcoin is not for idiots. That means you.

Aww.

Serious question...if tytus put a block of 10000 shares are at the IPO price on the market today, would you be happy or sad? My answer is...I would be ELATED and I've bought a lot of shares above the IPO price.

I'm glad to hear you're one of those problems that's in the process of sorting itself out.

Except if in fact you're lying, goat style.

[joris]

Buying shares (no bond, there's no interest nor debt) in a potential mining asset = buying lottery tickets without a prize fund. The only garantuee we have, is that the invested money will be spent out of our control. And I don't see the joy in your lottery, furuknap: I expect too much of your particular rules to obey.

In general, only selling of shares on which capital goes to the underlying venture has use for a venture, to raise productive capital.

The aftermarket and the (subsequent) gamblers on these shares, who think they are king, don't provide any use to the venture. It's just distraction.

[JohnSy]

After failed IPO* of the 72TH-mine (due to default of the manufacturer) and first delivery of ASIC products by Avalon we decided to float an asset based on alternative ASIC development project conducted in close collaboration with BitFury.org. The new mine (100TH-mine) will have much better profitability than the previous project.

Summary:when will it ship

Strong aspects:
-   low investment costs: only $5 / 1GH/s (4 times cheaper than competing products)
-   low maintenance costs due to low power dissipation of the chip: approximately 0.2-0.3 Watt / 1GH/s (4-20 time better than competition)
-   4 year manufacturer warranty
Weak aspects:
-   chip not tested yet, tape out in 1 month (full mask, engineering run), final simulation results will be posted in 2 weeks
-   deployment of 100TH-mine in July 2013

Details:

The proposed project is a 100 terahash/s Bitcoin mine. The hashing hardware will consist of mining boards developed in collaboration with BitFury. Today’s network hashing power is 4 times lower than 100TH/s but this situation will change dramatically in the next 4 months before the deployment of the hardware. The hardware will be located in the datacenter operated by MegaBigPower.com. The monthly maintenance and management costs will be kept at the 5k USD level. Hardware will be produced and assembled in June 2013. Mining will start at the data center on 2012-07-01. Estimations based on a predicted realistic continuous monthly network hashrate increase of 100TH/s (starting from 0TH/s on 2013-01-01) and BTC exchange rate of 17 USD point to a return of investment of 500k USD in 3 months after mining starts, i.e. in September 2013. Total income over the next 4 years after subtraction of the initial investment costs of 500k USD amounts to 2.7M USD. The suggested valuation of the venture is 500k USD (5 USD per 1GH/s, 1 USD per share), which is currently much below the retail purchase price of the hardware from competing suppliers. The venture will be legally operated as a PicoStocks project. No separate legal entity will be created.

The main risk of the project is the delay of the installation of the mining equipment. PicoStocks, legally responsible for the project, will reimburse investors if an income of 1M USD (10 USD per 1GH/s, 2 USD per share) will not be achieved by the mine until end of 2016 due to delayed installation.

The venture has 750 000 shares. If more than 500 000 shares will be ordered the hashing power will be increased proportionally above the expected 100TH/s to 150TH/s if all shares are sold. Each share is valued at 1 USD (recommended price) and corresponds to 0.2 GH/s. Shares that will not be ordered will be erased and a smaller mine will be deployed. The management costs will be decreased proportionally. The minimum price is 0.04 BTC which is below the expected price of 1 USD per share so the minimum valuation of the project is 400k USD for 100TH/s at an USD/BTC exchange rate of ca. 20 (today). The suggested price per share is 0.05 BTC, which corresponds to 1 USD per share and a valuation of the asset at 500k USD for 100TH/s. We offer a minimum price of 0.04BTC only because we worry that the exchange rate can rise in the coming 2 weeks before the IPO will be closed (in 2 weeks from now).

Business plan: http://picostocks.com/businessplan/19

Asset: http://picostocks.com/stocks/view/19

[Dexter770221]

First chips are under test:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=228677.msg2489891#msg2489891
http://imgur.com/fD435C9
https://picostocks.com/docs/index/19

[gebir]

Ok. got chips. they're nice! first I'll start with measurements of board...

[hammurabi]

To chime in again:




3) not trying to manipulate the market here. just trying to talk some sense into people, all this fingerlicking greed isn't going to lead us anywhere.

^^ This
It wasn't furuknap who posted such nonsense, it was his greed.
He probably made 100% ROI in a week or two and he wanted to make 200%.
Tytus how could you?? How could you sell stocks you bought earlier yourself at IPO price?

+1
Yeah, he got already crowd-kicked from ASICminer thread for that recently.

[furuknap]

Yeah, he got already crowd-kicked from ASICminer thread for that recently.

You go ahead and believe that's what happened, just like you'll go ahead and think this is OK.

.b

[Dexter770221]

Looks like more and more parts of the chip works!
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=228677.msg2499572#msg2499572
Power efficiency is amazing, if it will confirms it will be 10 times better than competition (Avalon, ASICMINER)!

[kaerf]

almost...there....

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=183368.msg2512453#msg2512453
:-) 5 times check .... and almost 99.9% of matches )))) So we can say that the kernel is exactly what you need them to be considered :-) It remains now work load and view error rate


was dicey for a little bit with unexpected bit sequences...

[carnitastaco]

Oh man, I was totally ready to link to this MPOE post and then MPOE did it himself

Furuknap-drama queen much?

200 MH/share? thats equivalent to 40 shares of DMS.Mining @ 5MH/share.  40 shares of DMS.Mining will run you about .76 right now, but you start getting dividends TOMORROW, without the risk of complete failure, without the risk of people who have never done it before building out a datacenter, without the risk of natural disaster, without paying electricity, rent, or any other costs, and with no risk of computer/internet downtime.

How high above .4 were you really expecting?  There isn't ALWAYS another sucker to sell to....

lol @ this whole conversation

I'll be blunt. At this point, I see now way for an extremely long time to rebuild the confidence of investors. If 100TH is still to be a viable asset, several things must happen.

1) 100TH is delisted from pico.
2) 100TH is listed on another exchange where tutys has no controlling interest
3) The shares controlled by tytus are put in escrow, only to be put on market after the escrow has ensured the rules set forward by tytus (and possibly the exchange) has been followed (for example 48 hour notice, declaration of price in advance, any exchange-specific regulations if any, etc)

Whether pico surives is actually not very relevant to 100TH, but I can't see an exchange operated by tytus being possible in the foresesable future.

I'll post an article in the coming days explaining my thoughts on this event and what happened in May. Tytus, I encourage you do contact me (DM) if you want to voice your side of it as part of that article. I will publish anything relevant and give you an early review of the content.

.b

Far as I can see, you're here to scam. The reasons are quite simply:

1. You're nobody, I couldn't tell you from Adam. Tytus, what's that. Wot? The cost to make you, entirely, is about fiddy cent. (Sure, you may or may not be related to Leszek Rychlewski, who'd be a moderately cited biology researcher. On the strength of your presentation that connection is not worth investigating.)

2. You came up with what you call an exchange, for no apparent reason. It doesn't exchange anything. The worthless assurances of some Marshall Islands shell "repaying" anyone for anything are of no value and no interest.

3. You came up with a scam for that exchange, specifically, an imaginary set of 1000 boards that Tom was selling you (in spite of bASIC not making that many boards to begin with and you not being anywhere on the lists of people that ordered).

I did point out to you then you're lying through your teeth, and your response was that *I* should check up on your claims. No receipts, no proof of anything. You could be Inaba if we didn't already have an idiot by that name around.

Conveniently enough for you Tom blew up, and so you're roughly in the situation of the various scammers operating out of GLBSE: they get to pretend like it was all Nefario's fault. Oh, yes, I forgot, you lost a million dollars with the bASIC blow-up, how fortunate for us that you're so cavalier about that disaster, picked yourself up and are back for more. Innit easy to get through due diligence for imaginary fortunes and imaginary investments? How strange that Tom never had half that much money to refund in the first place.

4. You came up with a slightly larger piece of bs. Who is bitfury? Oh, wait, nevermind, "BitFury Group facilitating development of BitCoin-related software, hardware and services". Great. They made a splash last summer with their insane "licensing" deal. Meanwhile they draw 7MW per Gh or something like that, and nobody (including the manufacturer) even knows what the units cost. Let alone that there were a grand total of two units built overall, during the entire 10 month lifetime of the project. As a bonus, MegaBigPower.com is some bs site registered two weeks ago, in no position to "operate" anything whatsoever. To make it perfectly clear: 100 TH made out of bitfuries is much like an aircraft carrier made out of old refurbished Ford Model Ts: not seaworthy.

5. If you think that is a business plan you have absolutely never either seen one or done business.

I get that you think Bitcoiners are idiots, and most are. The important point is that those who are have no BTC, and those who still have BTC aren't idiots. Your deluded notions that anyone will actually put as much as fifty dollars into this patent nonsense is about as amusing as the idiocy coming from the bitfinex corner. I get that you think you can buddy-buddy and "act professional" and it'll wash like it has in the past. You're wrong. It won't.

To quote my ever-watchful boss,

Pack it and move. This is your only warning, and quite frankly I have no ideea why warnings are even necessary. Bitcoin is not for idiots. That means you.

Aww.

Serious question...if tytus put a block of 10000 shares are at the IPO price on the market today, would you be happy or sad? My answer is...I would be ELATED and I've bought a lot of shares above the IPO price.

I'm glad to hear you're one of those problems that's in the process of sorting itself out.

Except if in fact you're lying, goat style.

[furuknap]

How high above .4 were you really expecting?  There isn't ALWAYS another sucker to sell to....

Uhm... Which part of this conversation did you not understand? I don't expect it to go anywhere, up or down. I expect the market to decide. I don't expect tytus to decide.

.b

[gyverlb]

How high above .4 were you really expecting?  There isn't ALWAYS another sucker to sell to....

Uhm... Which part of this conversation did you not understand? I don't expect it to go anywhere, up or down. I expect the market to decide. I don't expect tytus to decide.

.b

Probably someone trying to delay users of other exchanges where ROI perspectives are lower gathering to picostocks and buying shares with more potential.

Selling MPOE stocks, transferring the Bitcoins to picostocks and buying 100TH stocks takes time. Meanwhile people started to realize that bitfury and tytus might not be the scammers they have been portrayed as and already took notice of the chip test reports on the russian boards.
FUD spreading is the only way to delay this flock a bit while grabbing some cheap shares ;-)

[furuknap]

Meanwhile people started to realize that bitfury and tytus might not be the scammers they have been portrayed as and already took notice of the chip test reports on the russian boards.

I don't think neither tytus nor bitfury are scammers. I belive bitfury is absolutely brilliant and I've bet a substantial amount of money in his success.

I don't believe tytus is a scammer either. I believe he is massively inexperienced and afraid; that inexperience and fear has lead him to kill 100TH as a viable investment by committing acts that in all regulated markets would lead to massive fines or jail time and at the very best should scare investors from leaving money in that asset as long as it is under the control of tytus.

I've written my article on what happened and why it's a disaster. I never heard from tytus fater my invitation for comments, but I still welcome him to publish comments on the article if he so desires.

http://coin.furuknap.net/100th-went-from-great-investment-to-disaster-in-one-act/

.b