Syscoin vs Bitbay

[3r197]

Damn it! I lost my EURUSD bet. If i don't pay up the difference I risk losing 99% more.
Oh well. No way to renege now.
My counterparty just earned price difference of .7% from escrow negotiated starting price based on a 15000 Bay deposit. So I own him 105 BitBays and since I lost I cover the anti-dust fee.

So should I pay him the 105 Bays or should I renege and lose 15,000 Bays?
I think I'll pay.

Up next... wanting to go hot and heavy on a "long" position based on a Cisco hunch and backed by DDE tech.
Anyone willing to take my offer let me know! I be waiting in the Client to negotiate price and time frame.

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[whale_shark]

wow what a response! I didnt think i would get any replies. So do you think it is just because syscoin is on Polo that it is more popular? I didnt realize Bitbay was as advance as it is. Well done to both teams. I like this debate

[tokeweed]

I'm rather new to the altcoin scene and after a few days of looking at which coins to invest in i decided on ones that are working on decentralized marketplaces as I feel that's where there could be a  future for altcoins. I found and invested in Syscoin and Bitbay and both seen to be at the same stages of development but the difference in marketcap is huge? Bitbay is something like 12% of Syscoins price! Is the only difference here marketing? or that Syscoin is on Poloniex and Bitbay isn't?

Bitbay turned out to be a Bobsurplus pump and dump.  But the dev is still trying to save the project.  He should just drop it and move on. 

[funsponge]

I'm rather new to the altcoin scene and after a few days of looking at which coins to invest in i decided on ones that are working on decentralized marketplaces as I feel that's where there could be a  future for altcoins. I found and invested in Syscoin and Bitbay and both seen to be at the same stages of development but the difference in marketcap is huge? Bitbay is something like 12% of Syscoins price! Is the only difference here marketing? or that Syscoin is on Poloniex and Bitbay isn't?

Bitbay turned out to be a Bobsurplus pump and dump.  But the dev is still trying to save the project.  He should just drop it and move on. 

for someone with over 1000 comments you really are clueless.

Also for a 'pump and dump' it needs a pump . . i thought you would have known that too!

[Munti]

Since Sys is already fully functioning, we have honestly stopped comparing ourselves to roadmap projects and instead are concentrating on the only "competition" out there: OpenBazaar

Is that so? Or is it that you don't like what a comparison between BitBay and sys looks like?

[Wesiematic]

I remembering a shady story with Bitbay.

[sidhujag]

Bloat not an issue in sys.. DDE won't work for network effect it's an easier implementation than arbiters I had dde and took it out for a reason.

Also next release includes moderation.

Multisig exists in sys because it is based on btc core.. it has many of the other features of btc that Bay might not have.. also sys has reselling and wholesaling with whitelisting support which Bay does not.. also Bay is not released so you can't even do a comparison until it is.. Sébastien already explained this. This seems more like a road map to current sys comparison to me.. I can put cool things on sys road map just to say it aswell.. the plugin system we are designing is also a killer feature in sys.

AS I said before these two projects seem to be targeting different audiences and niches of ecommercr.  You can't compare directly even though Bay is not out with these features anyways. I believe in David and we will see some cool stuff out of him but the two projects really are complementary to the crypto ecommercr market and not in direct competition to each other unless you can convince me otherwise.

Also how does Bay allow payment of any currency? We allow btc addressed to coexist with sys and you can pay with btc.. if your using cltv then sys can also do this.

[Munti]

Bloat not an issue in sys.. DDE won't work for network effect it's an easier implementation than arbiters I had dde and took it out for a reason.

Also next release includes moderation.

Multisig exists in sys because it is based on btc core.. it has many of the other features of btc that Bay might not have.. also sys has reselling and wholesaling with whitelisting support which Bay does not.. also Bay is not released so you can't even do a comparison until it is.. Sébastien already explained this. This seems more like a road map to current sys comparison to me.. I can put cool things on sys road map just to say it aswell.. the plugin system we are designing is also a killer feature in sys.

AS I said before these two projects seem to be targeting different audiences and niches of ecommercr.  You can't compare directly even though Bay is not out with these features anyways. I believe in David and we will see some cool stuff out of him but the two projects really are complementary to the crypto ecommercr market and not in direct competition to each other unless you can convince me otherwise.

Also how does Bay allow payment of any currency? We allow btc addressed to coexist with sys and you can pay with btc.. if your using cltv then sys can also do this.

How can you claim that Bay is not released? And please don't give me that crap about open source. By that definition a lot of software that we all use daily isn't released.
Actually we released a working beta a long time before sys. And we stayed in beta for more than a year to make sure all bugs are fixed.
Windows client is now in release version. Mac and Linux stay in beta until we are certain that there are no OS specific bugs. We really don't want to have mishaps like locking up someone's coins, do we?
So I guess the question isn't really how you can claim Bay is not released, but why you claim it. Do you fear the competition that much?
You should not. I agree the projects are partly complementary, although there are some areas where we are in competition. I don't see a problem with that though. There is plenty of room for both projects. In fact I believe success for one project will help the other project because the real challenge is to get Joe and Jane used to the idea of using platforms like Bay and sys.

Of course Bay is out with the features we claim to have. Anyone can check that by downloading our client

Bay can allow payment with any currency because we use DDE. As stated you need Bay for the deposit. But payment can be in any currency or even clams if you prefer because the DDE takes care of the safety in the deal. So if you want you can open up a new market channel for say Dodge, and offer anything for sale with payment in Doge.
When you post your offer you make your deposit, when buyer takes the offer he makes his deposit. Buyer sends Doge, seller sends item, and when both are happy they release deposit.

Edit: I know multisig as technology exists in sys. I assume you must be using it in your escrow. But in the above I was talking about multisig in the meaning of being able to use two keys on my wallet. To my knowledge that is not implementet in sys yet. Please correct me if I'm wrong

[sebastien1234]

Bloat not an issue in sys.. DDE won't work for network effect it's an easier implementation than arbiters I had dde and took it out for a reason.

Also next release includes moderation.

Multisig exists in sys because it is based on btc core.. it has many of the other features of btc that Bay might not have.. also sys has reselling and wholesaling with whitelisting support which Bay does not.. also Bay is not released so you can't even do a comparison until it is.. Sébastien already explained this. This seems more like a road map to current sys comparison to me.. I can put cool things on sys road map just to say it aswell.. the plugin system we are designing is also a killer feature in sys.

AS I said before these two projects seem to be targeting different audiences and niches of ecommercr.  You can't compare directly even though Bay is not out with these features anyways. I believe in David and we will see some cool stuff out of him but the two projects really are complementary to the crypto ecommercr market and not in direct competition to each other unless you can convince me otherwise.

Also how does Bay allow payment of any currency? We allow btc addressed to coexist with sys and you can pay with btc.. if your using cltv then sys can also do this.

Also to add to this, BitBay investors may praise the fact that the source is closed but in essence, closed-source cannot be decentralized, until it's source becomes open, BitBay will never provide a decentralized marketplace.

[sidhujag]

Bloat not an issue in sys.. DDE won't work for network effect it's an easier implementation than arbiters I had dde and took it out for a reason.

Also next release includes moderation.

Multisig exists in sys because it is based on btc core.. it has many of the other features of btc that Bay might not have.. also sys has reselling and wholesaling with whitelisting support which Bay does not.. also Bay is not released so you can't even do a comparison until it is.. Sébastien already explained this. This seems more like a road map to current sys comparison to me.. I can put cool things on sys road map just to say it aswell.. the plugin system we are designing is also a killer feature in sys.

AS I said before these two projects seem to be targeting different audiences and niches of ecommercr.  You can't compare directly even though Bay is not out with these features anyways. I believe in David and we will see some cool stuff out of him but the two projects really are complementary to the crypto ecommercr market and not in direct competition to each other unless you can convince me otherwise.

Also how does Bay allow payment of any currency? We allow btc addressed to coexist with sys and you can pay with btc.. if your using cltv then sys can also do this.

How can you claim that Bay is not released? And please don't give me that crap about open source. By that definition a lot of software that we all use daily isn't released.
Actually we released a working beta a long time before sys. And we stayed in beta for more than a year to make sure all bugs are fixed.
Windows client is now in release version. Mac and Linux stay in beta until we are certain that there are no OS specific bugs. We really don't want to have mishaps like locking up someone's coins, do we?
So I guess the question isn't really how you can claim Bay is not released, but why you claim it. Do you fear the competition that much?
You should not. I agree the projects are partly complementary, although there are some areas where we are in competition. I don't see a problem with that though. There is plenty of room for both projects. In fact I believe success for one project will help the other project because the real challenge is to get Joe and Jane used to the idea of using platforms like Bay and sys.

Of course Bay is out with the features we claim to have. Anyone can check that by downloading our client

Bay can allow payment with any currency because we use DDE. As stated you need Bay for the deposit. But payment can be in any currency or even clams if you prefer because the DDE takes care of the safety in the deal. So if you want you can open up a new market channel for say Dodge, and offer anything for sale with payment in Doge.
When you post your offer you make your deposit, when buyer takes the offer he makes his deposit. Buyer sends Doge, seller sends item, and when both are happy they release deposit.

Edit: I know multisig as technology exists in sys. I assume you must be using it in your escrow. But in the above I was talking about multisig in the meaning of being able to use two keys on my wallet. To my knowledge that is not implementet in sys yet. Please correct me if I'm wrong

You're telling me that the client has been released with all those features minus road map ones on your chart ypu just posted?

Scared of competition? I've repeated multiple times that we are lucky to have both projects.. and they will serve different audiences imo.

The decision to use arbiters was after the conversation I had with Vitalik buterin and I was leaning towards dde but held off as we came to a consensus that it's not the best idea at such an early stage. This was reiterated by the syscoin team during our design meetings. There is a path fwd for dde just not yet.

Me and David talk regularly and provide feedback to each other.. we are on same page about alot of things.. obviously his vision is a bit different in medium term than mine so as a result ypu may have a different user group in each project.. lmk when I can test the currency thing with dde I'll have to see to believe in terms of usability I know it's technically possible what you are saying.

[dadon]

Shadowmarket is coming..and there is a reason we have taken our time!   

[cryptohunter]

Bloat not an issue in sys.. DDE won't work for network effect it's an easier implementation than arbiters I had dde and took it out for a reason.

Also next release includes moderation.

Multisig exists in sys because it is based on btc core.. it has many of the other features of btc that Bay might not have.. also sys has reselling and wholesaling with whitelisting support which Bay does not.. also Bay is not released so you can't even do a comparison until it is.. Sébastien already explained this. This seems more like a road map to current sys comparison to me.. I can put cool things on sys road map just to say it aswell.. the plugin system we are designing is also a killer feature in sys.

AS I said before these two projects seem to be targeting different audiences and niches of ecommercr.  You can't compare directly even though Bay is not out with these features anyways. I believe in David and we will see some cool stuff out of him but the two projects really are complementary to the crypto ecommercr market and not in direct competition to each other unless you can convince me otherwise.

Also how does Bay allow payment of any currency? We allow btc addressed to coexist with sys and you can pay with btc.. if your using cltv then sys can also do this.

Also to add to this, BitBay investors may praise the fact that the source is closed but in essence, closed-source cannot be decentralized, until it's source becomes open, BitBay will never provide a decentralized marketplace.

Why are you so keen to see the source?? all i see from the syscoin club is demands to see the source code. The projects are comparable NOW. You can't say because you can not see the source code that you can not compare the functionality and features.

SYScoin is it better than bitbay - i don't think so. However both projects above and beyond most on here. I don't think we will know which is truly better until they are experiencing wide real world usage. I like bays approach more but if syscoin says there is no bloat by doing it their way that too is rather interesting. I'm long bay at this point and of course at this price point you would have to be kind of crazy to not see that as having the better financial returns from this point.

To those rumbling on about the SCAM i don't think you understand what you are talking about. You do not penalize a community because it has been scammed and had its value extracted and those scamming have long gone also trying to destroy the project as they left. That is stupid. That's like saying your neighbours down the street who were burgled and had their home burned down are bad people for trying to rebuild it and should not be trusted?? what??

SCAM coins that should be avoided are the ones where the scammers are the ones running and benefiting from the project.

[Munti]

You're telling me that the client has been released with all those features minus road map ones on your chart ypu just posted?

Scared of competition? I've repeated multiple times that we are lucky to have both projects.. and they will serve different audiences imo.
Me and David talk regularly and provide feedback to each other.. we are on same page about alot of things.. obviously his vision is a bit different in medium term than mine so as a result ypu may have a different user group in each project.. lmk when I can test the currency thing with dde I'll have to see to believe in terms of usability I know it's technically possible what you are saying.

Yes, the client is released with all those features minus road map ones  

I guess you not knowing that explains your reaction in earlier post. I know you and David talk. I also think they will serve different audiences.
You can test the currency thing anytime. It's there. As I said you need Bay to use DDE. It is of course also possible to just use the market to post offers, and use someone trusted by both parties for escrow, but we don't encourage that. Besides that would only work for small communities like a coin. It can never scale.

[3r197]

Shadowmarket is coming..and there is a reason we have taken our time!   

Yeah... Good point , Dadon.
Haven't been following shadow lately. Can't say I agree with the goal of trying to create silkroad 2.0, but 'to each his own'. I believe in the long run, there a much bigger market for pursuing legitimate business which both BitBay and Syscoin are aiming at.

I know the anon approach probably creates the need for a lot more coding, which may I ask - how is the ring signature technology progressing?
You guys getting any closer to finalizing it?

Definitely lots of innovation out there to choose from for people from all aspects of life!

[Kewde]

Syscoin's decentralized marketplace is already in production

Its open source

Its blockchain based and not P2P (ever try to use torrents on a cellphone? Ouch)

Escrow does not require parties to double deposit(think real world here, would a store and customer ever accept to double deposit?).

Since Sys is already fully functioning, we have honestly stopped comparing ourselves to roadmap projects and instead are concentrating on the only "competition" out there: OpenBazaar



Good luck though, we respect all efforts towards decentralization.

What? I mean syscoin is great but surely Bitbay is better?  or am I wrong?

Is being blockchain based actually workable with this kind of thing? I mean if syscoin got any real user base would it not just start consuming enormous resources/space? how big will the block chain end up being?

I am a fan of bitbay but I have some sys too. From what I can tell Bitbay seems a way better way of doing things. However, I would love to see a full on comparison between the two with technical analysis that layman can understand.

Seems sys could never scale to any real world usage? or could it?

Isn't sys just a copy of what bitbay first set out to be?

I don't really think this thread is the best way to highlight these projects but still if a comparison must be made I would like to hear the facts from a tech pov not from just investors.  I'm merely and investor in both (more in bitbay ) but when last I was asking for some comparisons between them I got the notion bitbay was clearly built for scaling better for real world usage.

Syscoin tbh seemed to me to be a bit of a bitbay copycat coin that didn't think it out quite so well (this could be proven to be incorrect let's wait and see). However, congratulations for how quickly it was coded out.

Hello,

I thought I'd chime in the dicussion, we at Shadow love seeing good debate intertwined with the right amount of anger. I owe you a word of explanation before I start taking a piss at everyone.
First things first, when people from both sides of two or more projects get in a heavy debate, they are merely defending what they have created. Their own blood, sweat, tears and spirit went into creating it, so they will defend that without giving up. I think it is important to recognize that most of us here have dedicated quite some time to either project and that knowing that fact should be the basis for mutual respect. Well, I respect it, you can feel whatever you want.

Nonetheless, this shouldn't be used as reason not to criticize the other for their bullshit.

To start off, sebastien1234 I hope you are either drunk or high on meth when you typed that. If what you've said (read quote) is your true opinion, I advice you to withdraw from this forum and to never come back. You're in charge of the PR, so I've read, stick to it and don't ever get mixed in technical discussions until you are 100% sure about what you're saying.

Its blockchain based and not P2P (ever try to use torrents on a cellphone? Ouch)

This is first class bullshit right here people. A blockchain is distributed in a P2P fashion, so by that simple analogy your argument is destroyed.
A blockchain would require you to fully synced before you can participate in any trading, meaning P2P like torrents would actually be a faster system by MAGNITUDES.
I don't know if you're from some country that has never heard of Quadcore smartphones and internet speeds that exceed 100Mb/s but torrents on a cellphone are pretty darn fast, just as fast as a computer.

Escrow does not require parties to double deposit(think real world here, would a store and customer ever accept to double deposit?).
Again, it is clear that your knowledge on double deposits doesn't reach that far. If I remember correctly, BitBay uses a model of FULL double deposits, so you have to put up 100% as insurance. In a real world model that wouldn't even be necessary, an insurance deposit ranging of 10% to 20% should be enough to keep scammers out. The economics behind this find their roots in game theory, something which I won't bother to explain. But you need to keep account of the loss of cash flow that a scammer encounters, even with a 10% insurance deposit, the scammer will run out of funds.

You're a good guy, but don't give people like me a chance to publicly ruin your credibility of the technical understanding. Bad for you own PR, just my two cents.


Is being blockchain based actually workable with this kind of thing? I mean if syscoin got any real user base would it not just start consuming enormous resources/space? how big will the block chain end up being?
That's a very good question, we at Shadow have been crunching the numbers for our own system. You definetly need pruning, does SYS do this?

Without pruning, obviously not. Even our system which only stores listing by default for 48 hours has problems with this when we check the numbers.
A simple scaling check shows that blockchain based listings don't scale. Say you have about 10,000 listings with each about 3 pictures on average with a 200KB, and I'm being optimistic because I truely hope sys is "downgrading" the images, because it is more likely to be in the range of 7.46MB if they don't.
10 000 * 200 KB = 2GB of data at a given moment.

Now 10 000 listings can easily be made by less than a thousand merchants, so no sys probably will not scale. Disregard anyone trying to convince you otherwise, anyone trying to should do it by crunching the numbers like I did.

There are ways of mitigating these problems, but by using blockchain tech (every node must store everything) their only way out of scaling issues is by inventing a lite mode.
They have worked themselves in a corner by the blockchain, one which I doubt will ever scale to a wider angle.


Seems sys could never scale to any real world usage? or could it?
Bitcoin can't even do that, so you can't demand that syscoin pulls it off.


I haven't even gotten to my own critique to sys, mostly being their attitude towards "getting the job done, even if it involves leaving out core principles".
Their DirectBTC feature makes use of centralized components and don't even make a fair mention of being that way, pretty bad when you're promoting blockchain tech. It's feasable to do it in a decentralized manner, but they decided to rush it.

Don't get me started on the privacy issues of sys, you'll just blame me for shilling ShadowCash.

Lovely chat ol' chaps.
Keep on working on what you love as long as it makes you happy. Make sure you stay healthy and don't risk running into a burn out, it ain't easy for open source devs.
Everyone gets shitload of critique, but when you're working so hard for free, it can get heavy on your mental health.

Greetings,
Kewde

[dadon]

Shadowmarket is coming..and there is a reason we have taken our time!  

Yeah... Good point , Dadon.
Haven't been following shadow lately. Can't say I agree with the goal of trying to create silkroad 2.0, but 'to each his own'. I believe in the long run, there a much bigger market for pursuing legitimate business which both BitBay and Syscoin are aiming at.

I know the anon approach probably creates the need for a lot more coding, which may I ask - how is the ring signature technology progressing?
You guys getting any closer to finalizing it?

Definitely lots of innovation out there to choose from for people from all aspects of life!

That was never our teams goal, out teams goal was to deliver the true vision of Satoshi as we believe it to be, a completely decentralized and private ( if you wish it to be) economic platform  made by the people for the people.
silkroad 2.0 was basically just a marketing headline by Vice's motherboard publication for an article they published on outr project and OB
P.S I really hope more people get behind SDC the team has really worked hard..just look at the passion and intelligence in the above post to catch a small glimpse inside the minds of our amazing dev team

[Kewde]

Yeah... Good point , Dadon.
Haven't been following shadow lately. Can't say I agree with the goal of trying to create silkroad 2.0, but 'to each his own'. I believe in the long run, there a much bigger market for pursuing legitimate business which both BitBay and Syscoin are aiming at.

I know the anon approach probably creates the need for a lot more coding, which may I ask - how is the ring signature technology progressing?
You guys getting any closer to finalizing it?

Definitely lots of innovation out there to choose from for people from all aspects of life!

We're being viewed as some group that tries to make a darknet market, but that is certainly not the goal.
Privacy is power, and thus paramount. People deserve to have power over their own life and in a world where mass surveillance is a thing, someone must provide the tools to cope with it.

Ring signatures are done, we're still discussing possible features based upon it and some minor improvements. We've had a bug that deanonymized us, we're glad that only a minor part of the total tokens pool was compromised (somewhere about 20% IIRC). We're making efforts on porting our ring signature library to the masses to be used in other C++ projects, this will spark more notice of it and peer review.


Also a word of advice, don't ever compare yourself to OB.
If you're going to shoot the king, you better make sure you kill him.

[sidhujag]

SO obvious that SDC trolls would come in here and hijack the thread... first of all your pretty stupid if you are storing images on the blockchain... and SYS won't have any scaling issues in regards to storage OR bandwidth more than bitcoin itself... you can check out the dev branch and figure out why. Most of the guys points dont make any sense. DirectBTC was intentionally coded the way it was because of usability purposes.. once a better solution is available it will be easy to switch it (CLTV implementation won't be any better for users currently). Anyways keep the discussion between Sys and Bay, where it should belong... open your own thread if you want to compare SDC to Sys thanks.

How would p2p market offers "keep-alive"? you have to have channels of nodes that ping each other contiiously now multiple that with say 10k nodes that all have some kind of offer in the same channel...I'd say at some point the "keep-alive" model starst to breakdown whereas the blockchain model thrives... the "keep-alive" model may work for smaller to medium sized networks but I believe blockchain would serve a better model for large scale adoption, especially once something like LN arrives.

[dadon]

SO obvious that SDC trolls would come in here and hijack the thread... first of all your pretty stupid if you are storing images on the blockchain... and SYS won't have any scaling issues in regards to storage OR bandwidth... you can check out the dev branch and figure out why. Most of the guys points done make any sense. DirectBTC was intentionally coded the way it was because of usability purposes.. once a better solution is available it will be easy to switch it (CLTV implementation won't be any better for users currently). Anyways keep the discussion between Sys and Bay, where it should belong... open your own thread if you want to compare SDC to Sys thanks.

we didn't hijack this thread! all legitimate projects deserve recognition don't they? so tell me please when everything about the sdc project has been not only fair but also extremely productive...why don't we get to be compared also?...shouldn't be a problem since the only legitmate competition to SYS is OB..right?

[sidhujag]

SO obvious that SDC trolls would come in here and hijack the thread... first of all your pretty stupid if you are storing images on the blockchain... and SYS won't have any scaling issues in regards to storage OR bandwidth... you can check out the dev branch and figure out why. Most of the guys points done make any sense. DirectBTC was intentionally coded the way it was because of usability purposes.. once a better solution is available it will be easy to switch it (CLTV implementation won't be any better for users currently). Anyways keep the discussion between Sys and Bay, where it should belong... open your own thread if you want to compare SDC to Sys thanks.

we didn't hijack this thread! all legitimate projects deserve recognition don't they? so tell me please when everything about the sdc project has been not only fair but also extremely productive...why don't we get to be compared also?...shouldn't be a problem since the only legitmate competition to SYS is OB..right?

Not gonna get into it on this thread but SDC is off the radar for me after recent events aswell as my experience with their community.. i know others share similar experiences. Lets stick to bay and sys plz last time I ask, otherwise I fail to participate in any healthy debates. Make a new thread.