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Author Topic: Bitcoin IS basically DESTROYED  (Read 47178 times)
eddyubachs
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May 10, 2016, 08:36:04 PM
 #181

Bitcoin is basically destroyed now with 70% of the mining controlled by China, soon to be 98+%, and with Blockstream implementing their SegWit soft fork Trojan Horse so as Matonis admits can end up increasing the 21 million coins limit.

The entire ecosystem is headed for a clusterfuck.

I honestly believe this is the truth.  What is there to add ?

~CfA~
if bitcoin controlled by china,why dont we move to china?or at least we can consolidate with china,and ask them have a good control. bitcoin on china was very ood,but i dont think they try to control bitcoin,because i'm sure china know that bitcoin is cannot controlled.
The first thing is that bitcoin is really uncontrollable by any specific power and if any power want to involve in it  with full potential then it will be a great support to bitcoin, I will say that someone among the major power have to come forward to give strength to bitcoin.

I think if media comes in support of bitcoin then it can make a huge difference, as people starts believing what they hear in news, if that happens then bitcoin  can gain more attention from the people.
Bitcoin mining is now a specialized and very risky industry, just like gold mining. Amateur miners are unlikely to make much money, and may even lose money. Bitcoin is much more than just mining, though!
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May 10, 2016, 08:43:04 PM
 #182

...
No, I'm pretty sure even people in the US should be recognising this as the toxic, paranoid, prejudiced, xenophobic drivel it is.  I can assure you I feel no non-American angst, nor am I attempting to instil it in others.  You can't rationally claim that a certain group of people within a set border are a problem whilst also stating that geographic location is irrelevant.  Unless, y'know, you're insane, which I'm not ruling out as a possibility.
Don't particularly care about this guy's sanity, but sure, he can state that "a certain group of people within a set border are a problem whilst also stating that geographic location is irrelevant." He'd be right, too Smiley

It doesn't matter where bitcoin mining is centralized, as long as *it's centralized somewhere.* If that "somewhere" happens to be China, then Chinese miners are responsible for [the problem of] Bitcoin centralization. If Bitcoin mining was controlled by handful of wholesome American boys in Detroit, Michigan, then American miners would be responsible.
Seems self-evident to me Undecided

Quote
Also, fun fact, not everyone in China is a communist, you stereotyping screwball.
Did he suggest that all Chinese were Communists?
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May 10, 2016, 09:12:54 PM
 #183

...
No, I'm pretty sure even people in the US should be recognising this as the toxic, paranoid, prejudiced, xenophobic drivel it is.  I can assure you I feel no non-American angst, nor am I attempting to instil it in others.  You can't rationally claim that a certain group of people within a set border are a problem whilst also stating that geographic location is irrelevant.  Unless, y'know, you're insane, which I'm not ruling out as a possibility.
Don't particularly care about this guy's sanity, but sure, he can state that "a certain group of people within a set border are a problem whilst also stating that geographic location is irrelevant." He'd be right, too Smiley

It doesn't matter where bitcoin mining is centralized, as long as *it's centralized somewhere.* If that "somewhere" happens to be China, then Chinese miners are responsible for [the problem of] Bitcoin centralization. If Bitcoin mining was controlled by handful of wholesome American boys in Detroit, Michigan, then American miners would be responsible.
Seems self-evident to me Undecided

And yet I still bet this thread wouldn't exist if it did happen to be miners from a western democracy.  But fine, go ahead and give credence to Chicken Little.  It's not the first time he's gone off on some half baked rant about how we're all doomed and it certainly won't be the last time that he's been completely wrong about it.  Credibility.  Equals.  Zero.


Quote
Also, fun fact, not everyone in China is a communist, you stereotyping screwball.
Did he suggest that all Chinese were Communists?

If he's not, then can he please STFU about communists already?

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May 10, 2016, 09:34:18 PM
 #184

And yet I still bet this thread wouldn't exist if it did happen to be miners from a western democracy.
Possibly, though this doesn't weaken his point in any way.

Quote
If he's not, then can he please STFU about communists already?
But why? China has nationalized the means of production in the past, that's pretty much the core tenet of Communism.
Are you saying that's not a concern, or that you simply don't like the word "Communism"? I'm a bit irked by the "Fascist" bit, but Communism is pertinent, especially with China flipflopping all over the place re. legality of Bitcoin itself.
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May 10, 2016, 09:52:08 PM
 #185

Bitcoin is basically destroyed now with 70% of the mining controlled by China, soon to be 98+%, and with Blockstream implementing their SegWit soft fork Trojan Horse so as Matonis admits can end up increasing the 21 million coins limit.

The entire ecosystem is headed for a clusterfuck.

I honestly believe this is the truth.  What is there to add ?

~CfA~
if bitcoin controlled by china,why dont we move to china?or at least we can consolidate with china,and ask them have a good control. bitcoin on china was very ood,but i dont think they try to control bitcoin,because i'm sure china know that bitcoin is cannot controlled.
The first thing is that bitcoin is really uncontrollable by any specific power and if any power want to involve in it  with full potential then it will be a great support to bitcoin, I will say that someone among the major power have to come forward to give strength to bitcoin.

I think if media comes in support of bitcoin then it can make a huge difference, as people starts believing what they hear in news, if that happens then bitcoin  can gain more attention from the people.

I think so media will help to report about bitcoin, if they are going to report good news about btc, probably banks or other treasury bureau would pay the media to disappoint people of what bitcoin is. That is always the work of medias.

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May 11, 2016, 12:48:35 AM
 #186

Bitcoin is basically destroyed now with 70% of the mining controlled by China, soon to be 98+%, and with Blockstream implementing their SegWit soft fork Trojan Horse so as Matonis admits can end up increasing the 21 million coins limit.

The entire ecosystem is headed for a clusterfuck.

I honestly believe this is the truth.  What is there to add ?

~CfA~

and what altcoin you support? Always there is an altcoin behind post like this

http://www.bitcoin-gr.org
4411 804B 0181 F444 ADBD 01D4 0664 00E4 37E7 228E
boyptc
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May 11, 2016, 02:04:25 AM
 #187

Should we be worried? Should we trade our BTC now for other coin like ETH?
I think now about 75% of bitcoins are mined and very sooner all of the bitcoins will be mined, I think, so then we should have to care that who is mining it. We just have to adopt the bitcoin for our use, in the coming future the power will be with those who have adopted it.

Better if you will stick to bitcoins as all people do now. Waiting patiently for bitcoin halving, there is a possibility that bitcoin will be destroyed, but as of now it is still on the go and having its fluctuation.



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May 11, 2016, 03:41:34 AM
 #188

Bitcoin is basically destroyed now with 70% of the mining controlled by China, soon to be 98+%, and with Blockstream implementing their SegWit soft fork Trojan Horse so as Matonis admits can end up increasing the 21 million coins limit.

The entire ecosystem is headed for a clusterfuck.

I honestly believe this is the truth.  What is there to add ?

~CfA~



If nothing else bitcoin blockchain(s) will continue to exist as an antique.
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May 11, 2016, 05:48:52 AM
 #189

no its not so. i think is not destroyed. its looking to me that bitcoins has a bright future, most of the people are entering in bitcoin form people are taking interest in bitcoin, i am hopeful that in future it will be more benificial/
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May 11, 2016, 05:58:59 AM
 #190

China didn't design the ASIC, the mining to say the least, software is provided by western. Just utilize their production capacity.
Even 98% hash from China, they are not from the same group. Last tie I read, the money/technology backing up the operation is from western.
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May 11, 2016, 06:07:28 AM
 #191

erhaps an american™ fork will appear that bans all Chinese nodes.  (If Trump is president and has a good technological advisor), that is. Bitcoin-West being the result. China then running its own fork. Oh I guess China does love Bitcoin after all # who deserves controlling the Bitcoin network? Isn't this intentional? Arms race.  Competition means more nodes being deployed.  Don't you worry folks, Bitcoin's doing just fine. Deploy more nodes if you don't like the Chinese doing it more than yourself!
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May 11, 2016, 06:16:12 AM
 #192

Why would the fact that China is basically controlling mining do anything to Bitcoin?

The whole concept of bitcoin was based around decentralization.

If China controlls a large % of the hash power then it would only take the collaboration of a few to hit the dreaded 51% control point
Yeah exactly. If there is only one country controlling the whole thing, then the whole point of Bitcoin is gone. It is not really their fault though, no one else wants to mine.


 
 
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May 11, 2016, 08:58:41 AM
 #193

What is wrong with bitcoin. It has not been destroyed but just died like 90 times. It is still not gone corrupt or anything like that. I like bitcoin as it is and i believe it is not destroyed.

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May 11, 2016, 11:04:56 AM
 #194

Does anyone agree or disagree with this presumption of mine?

Of course I disagree with it, otherwise I wouldn't own any Bitcoin.  The marginal cost over time of Bitcoin shows an ever increasing percent being energy costs.  This means sha256d will likely be commoditized.  There is no Chinese monopoly after that happens.

r0ach I like you, but you wrote nonsense.

Amazing to me that you still don't understand why Satoshi's design will always centralize.

One crucial point you are not getting your mind wrapped around, is that the need to set a block size to control the level of transaction fees earned, is a power vacuum that forces an oligarchy to take control over the mining. ArticMine and I had explained that in great detail. I also I summarized that point again in the "Bitcoin IS basically DESTROYED" thread.

Orthogonal to the prior paragraph, you also don't seem to understand that commoditization and leveling the access to ASICs can't stop the centralization and concentration of Bitcoin mining into an eventual oligarchy of a dozen or so ASIC mining farms. Even if we assume that ASIC mining farms in China don't enjoy an unfair advantage due to ostensibly receiving State subsidized cheap (or free) electricity due to corruption, the centralization of Satoshi's profitable proof-of-work design remains inexorable and unavoidable (and regardless of geographical location of its occurrence). I had already explained why in great technical detail in the my decentralization and your "Satoshi didn't solve the BGP" threads, and here follows an incomplete summary quoted from the "Bitcoin IS basically DESTROYED" thread:

Most of these Chinese mining firms are pools, so like most pools that are extremely big, if they get too big, miners will hop to a different one.

It isn't just the pools that are the problem, but that the mining farms are large and concentrating the 51+% amongst a few oligarchs. This will only grow more centralized over time, because TPTB_need_war explained in his technical analysis, that profitable proof-of-work always accrues over time to maximum economies-of-scale. There are several reasons for that including propagation advantages of being the first to win more blocks, so don't waste hashrate mining on the wrong fork for a short period, which over time gradually depletes the other miners of relative profits. It is more complex than that. You need to read his entire analysis to understand.


From the beginning, this has always been a possibility: A banker who can effectively create unlimited fiat money can easily acquire all the mining infrastructure and control the network hash power (Of course he don't need to do so through one single entity, it will look like that many people control the mining infrastructure, but when a vote happens people will discover that over 90% of hash power is controlled by a few entity and can go against majority of people's will)

PoW method is vulnerable to large capital taking over. This is the nature of PoW, so some people have suggested to use a PoW+PoS hybrid model for the future mining, but without major hash power, how do you implement this change into the network? Why miners should give up their dominance power today? It seems only a fork or re-design of a new coin can start afresh

There are several technical factors you need to take into account. For example, the greater the hashrate (of the pool if not solo mining), the more often the miner is mining on the block that won't be orphaned. The propagation delay of block announcements (or any group with 33+% of the hashrate colluding to delay block announcements, which was explained the research paper Majority is not Enough: Bitcoin Mining is Vulnerable), means that those with more hashrate are more profitable given the same unitized hardware and electricity costs. Ditto that every miner (or pool) has the same cost of validation regardless of their hashrate. This means that even if everything is fair and equal, naturally over time the mining will centralize to an oligarchy. This is a property of profitable proof-of-work and there is nothing that can be done to fix it. TPTB_need_war made an entire thread about this to discuss it in detail. The flaws of proof-of-stake are also discussed in that thread and I urge Minecache and others not to turn this thread into a PoS vs. PoW discussion. Bring the PoS vs. PoW debate over to that other thread, other such thread if you want to debate that.

What TPTB_need_war concluded is that the only design that can remain economically decentralized is UNprofitable proof-of-work. This means that every spender would send some PoW share with each transaction. The details are complex and it can't work the same as Satoshi's design. Most of the details are already explained in various posts that TPTB_need_war has made spread out over many different threads. But he is not implementing this design right now, because he is busy on the other programming priorities I mentioned.

Any way, there is no solution to that will remain immune to the fact that humans are manipulated like a herd when it comes to politics. And they are lazy. And they are easily duped by the elite. So even if TPTB_need_war implements his solution, it is likely that the people will still end up sending their PoW shares to an oligarchy of "pools" even though unprofitable PoW means no one gains by using a pool. People are just dumb. But we might have a fighting chance with this redesign of Satoshi's flawed design. Many people have criticized this UNprofitable PoW thinking it won't work because there is not the proper incentives and Nash equilibirum. TPTB_need_war says they are wrong and he will eventually publish a whitepaper to better explain all the details.

I don't know where we will end up with all this. But my guess is the elite will win and the people will lose. But some people are working on hard. Please don't disrespect TPTB_need_war. His is working as furiously as he can, and no one helps him. Maybe one day he will get some assistance and be recognized for his efforts. But he doesn't care! He is doing what he is doing as a labor of love and because he loves the challenge.




Of course, China being the top producers of Bitcoin isn't even a Bitcoin problem in the first place.  It's a symptom of China controlling manufacturing for everything on earth as corporations use their slaves for global labor arbitrage.

China being the current location of the centralization and concentration of Bitcoin mining is irrelevant to the point that profitable proof-of-work will always centralize into an oligarchy and thus offers us no long-term advantage to remove the evils and risks we normally have with fiat. The powers-that-be will be able to enforce capital controls even more effectively on Bitcoin transactions with the oligarchy control over mining, as compared to cash fiat transactions. So don't assume your Bitcoin can't be confiscated by the government. With control over the protocol with the oligarchy on mining, the powers-that-be can do what ever they wish. If the masses who are using Bitcoin don't stop using Bitcoin, then no one will be able to stop the-powers-that-be from doing what they want to Bitcoin's protocol given the oligarchy control over mining. No rational person is arguing that Bitcoin will stop functioning or that the price will collapse to 0 (although the chance of that happen does exist but quite small chance), but rather we are saying that Bitcoin as a decentralized asset which could be relied on as being impervious to control by any one, is "basically destroyed". All the clueless n00bs (or disingenuous trolls) who build strawmen arguments accusing of us saying that Bitcoin is destroyed and won't function, are just inane arguments which deflect the focus away from our factual point about the aspect of Bitcoin that is actually destroyed.

What Europe typically did in the past was cancel the fiat currency quite often, as way to force the existing cash under mattresses to come back to the banks for exchanging to the newly issued currency, wherein the State could confiscate most of it. At least we always had gold as a money that the government couldn't cancel, but now the pervasive "Big T false flag" police state spreading all over the globe means one can't even transport gold any more without it at great risk of being confiscated under the false allegation of money laundering or terrorism.

We are headed into a clusterfucked world. I sure hope you all stop deluding yourselves.
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May 11, 2016, 11:18:54 AM
 #195

Bitcoin is basically destroyed now with 70% of the mining controlled by China, soon to be 98+%, and with Blockstream implementing their SegWit soft fork Trojan Horse so as Matonis admits can end up increasing the 21 million coins limit.

The entire ecosystem is headed for a clusterfuck.

I honestly believe this is the truth.  What is there to add ?

~CfA~



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May 11, 2016, 11:29:39 AM
Last edit: May 11, 2016, 11:52:01 AM by sockpuppet1
 #196

But fine, go ahead and give credence to Chicken Little.  It's not the first time he's gone off on some half baked rant about how we're all doomed and it certainly won't be the last time that he's been completely wrong about it.  Credibility.  Equals.  Zero.

The paid propagandists such as DooMAD will come here...

We are always being turned against each other and take our eyes off the true source of the our problems.

DooMAD I don't know how you can look at yourself in the mirror.

...One for each personality disorder you suffer from?) likely to contain unrealistic and purely hypothetical scenarios that may be closer to fiction than any semblance of reality, along with false logic and copious amounts of clutching at straws.

Please do continue to destroy yourselves with your socialist delusions, while the Minsky Moment of global collapse approaches:

2018 Kaboom!

https://www.docdroid.net/file/download/i3f8uVF/stanley-druckenmiller-the-end-game.pdf (<-- see page 7)

http://www.economist.com/news/leaders/21698240-it-question-when-not-if-real-trouble-will-hit-china-coming-debt-bust

With fondest memories Roll Eyes of your banned spiritual leader who I hope was hit by door on his way out.

Butt is a bit sore, but it is from sitting in the programming chair 18 hours a day.

Oh and remember during 2013 to 2015, I was sharing the predictions of Martin Armstrong which called for a massive lurch towards global clusterfuck on 2015.75 (Sept 30/Oct 1 2015), we'll the prediction was entirely correct (click the following Quote to read more):

[...]

Something important does always happen on the ECM turn dates. For example:

1. On March 13/14 2016, the deadcat bounce of Baltic Sea index (measure of the world's trade activity) rolled over and started to decline again.

2. On 2015.75, was precisely the event that began WW3 and the stage of the conflict that sent the migrants invading Europe:

Putin invaded Syria precisely on September 30, 2015, which was to the day of 2015.75. That warned that whatever takes place right on the day becomes the main focus. Putin then withdrew precisely on pi day. So what is taking place from the Middle East will break the back of Europe economically as governments seek to raise taxes to pay for the pretend “refugees” as well as extremists who have infiltrated Europe and destabilized its borders and security. This is unwinding the entire freedom of movement within Europe which was the cornerstone of the EU concept. With borders resurfacing, Brussels begins its decline.

Even 9/11 took place right on our pi target from the peak in the ECM. This is starting to demonstrate that there is, in fact, a cycle to this type of activity that is following the 8.6 frequency. The Madrid attack on the train was March 11, 2004, or 2004.19. If we project target dates from the USA 9/11 incident, we arrive at 2004.16, which was March 1 or 10 days earlier before the attack. We have been running various terrorist attacks through our models. The list is indeed long (see Wikipedia). Nonetheless, it appears that certain groups do fall into unique cycle frequencies. This appears to enable one to determine which group was behind what.

2002.780 Indonesia Bali Oct 12, 2002
2002.810 Moscow October 23, 2002
2003.372 Morocco, Casablanca May 16, 2003
2003.361 Riyadh Saudi Arabia May 12, 2003
2003.887 Turkey, Istanbul November 20, 2003
2004.191 Madrid March 11, 2004
2004.668 Beslan, Russia September 1 – 3, 2004


Let’s face the facts. The Economic Confidence Model works with such precision it is often mind-numbing. This is monitoring human activity as a coherent, collective economic entity of “civilization” that materializes by people coming together. I suppose it makes sense that we are influenced collectively to respond with a cyclical rhythm. It appears the same is reflected in terrorist activity.

3. From my March, 2009 essay:

I don't know if anyone else has commented already, that Martin Armstrong's "It Is Just Time" prediction made back in October 2008, for a major turn event on March 19, nailed the exact day (after) the Fed announced to start buying government bonds directly.

He had also predicted ahead of time the turn that coincided with the peak in the precious metals prices last March 2008.

Google "Martin Armstrong", for the remarkable story about how accurate his computer model predictions have been, and him being in the maximum security prison without a trial, together with the Shoe Bomber and the Unibomber, alledgedly because of his unwillingness to share his model with the CIA.
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May 11, 2016, 11:50:37 AM
Last edit: May 11, 2016, 12:03:36 PM by sockpuppet1
 #197

...
No, I'm pretty sure even people in the US should be recognising this as the toxic, paranoid, prejudiced, xenophobic drivel it is.  I can assure you I feel no non-American angst, nor am I attempting to instil it in others.  You can't rationally claim that a certain group of people within a set border are a problem whilst also stating that geographic location is irrelevant.  Unless, y'know, you're insane, which I'm not ruling out as a possibility.

Don't particularly care about this guy's sanity, but sure, he can state that "a certain group of people within a set border are a problem whilst also stating that geographic location is irrelevant." He'd be right, too Smiley

Great to read you have an IQ higher than 115 and some logic skills.

The few posters with a brain stem, prevent the thread from being turned into a disinformation campaign by those who are either of only average intelligence (thus not adroit with logic) or those intentionally disingenuous trolls. Which classification do you reckon applies to DooMAD?

Also, fun fact, not everyone in China is a communist, you stereotyping screwball.

Did he suggest that all Chinese were Communists?

DooMAD and others build strawman arguments based on claims I never made. That is the typical behavior of an idiot who isn't adroit with logic and/or a disingenuous troll.

In fact, I wrote upthread that China's ideological revolution has starved some 57 million peasants to death, because the Communist Party fucked up the mechanisms of agriculture. That means I am not implicating all the Chinese people. In fact, at least 1.5 million Chinese were executed during the 1960s purge because they refused to declare allegiance to communism.

However, it is a fact that many Chinese have a predisposition to favor top-down control. In fact one of the key members of the Chinese Bitcoin miners cartel recently admitted that in a direct quote. I don't have time to dig it up, but perhaps one of you can.

I am not blaming the problem of Bitcoin's centralization on China. The centralization is unavoidable due to the flaw in the economic design of Satoshi's profitable proof-of-work. It centralizes and eventually becomes a fiat, by-design. Satoshi (knowingly or not) designed it to do that.

It just so happens that China is a very conducive place to form an oligarchy, because the Chinese economy is largely overlorded by oligarchies. China has nearly always throughout its history had a culture of warlordism.

I don't hate Chinese people. China and Singapore are rising and will be the new financial capital of the world by 2033, taking that role away from New York and London respectively.

I am just speaking factually. Every culture+society has its attributes and we shouldn't be afraid to speak the reality.

But why? China has nationalized the means of production in the past, that's pretty much the core tenet of Communism.
Are you saying that's not a concern, or that you simply don't like the word "Communism"? I'm a bit irked by the "Fascist" bit, but Communism is pertinent, especially with China flipflopping all over the place re. legality of Bitcoin itself.

What part about corporate-fascism irked you? Do you think I am predicting a return to Nazi holocaust?

Examples of corporate fascism include for example how this absolute lie and propaganda of man-made climate change (as opposed to environmental destruction which is a scientifically unrelated issue) was foisted on the world so that for example Obama could shut down the coal electrical generation plants who are not his cronies and award carbox tax exclusions to his cronies:


But what is more interesting to me is your generation is so ideologically preoccupied. Perhaps you believe in the lie of anthropogenic global warming as well. I hate to bust your bubble but it was a propaganda constructed to put in a place a global governance and taxation system. The scientists have confirmed we are headed into a Mini Ice Age and our global temperature is modulated by the sun, nothing else. Period.


No wonder why noone takes you seriously.

I didn't take him seriously before but that quote is priceless.

Especially because after I embarrassed Gmaxwell upthread on the technical points, now I am going to embarrass you guys with some facts (but I realize your AGW religion ignores facts):

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1091272.msg14688442#msg14688442

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1091272.msg14660362#msg14660362
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May 11, 2016, 11:56:42 AM
 #198

Well, if it ain't China then those white devils look like they'll do a pretty good job too - https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/4isxjr/petition_to_protect_satoshis_coins/d30we6f
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May 11, 2016, 12:09:45 PM
 #199

Well, if it ain't China then those white devils look like they'll do a pretty good job too - https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/4isxjr/petition_to_protect_satoshis_coins/d30we6f

Lol, thanks for that!

Theymos defacto in effect admits TPTB_need_war might be correct with his technical allegation upthread that Bitcoin could possibly have a back door that could be cracked:

Edit: To be absolutely clear: I am not proposing (and would never propose) a policy that would have the goal of depriving anyone of his bitcoins. Satoshi's bitcoins (which number far below 1M, I think) rightfully belong to him, and he can do whatever he wants with them. Even if I wanted to destroy Satoshi's bitcoins in particular, it's not possible to identify which bitcoins are Satoshi's. I am talking about destroying presumably-lost coins that are going to be stolen, ideally just moments before the theft would occur.

This issue has been discussed for several years. I think that the very-rough consensus is that old coins should be destroyed before they are stolen to prevent disastrous monetary inflation. People joined Bitcoin with the understanding that coins would be permanently lost at some low rate, leading to long-term monetary deflation. Allowing lost coins to be recovered violates this assumption, and is a systemic security issue.

So if we somehow learn that people will be able to start breaking ECDSA-protected addresses in 5 years (for example), two softforks should be rolled out now:

Vindicated!
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May 11, 2016, 12:21:24 PM
 #200


Great to read you have an IQ higher than 115 and some logic skills.


Another sucker in the "IQ is a thing" scam eh?  Always sad to see people fall for that.  One thing we all know for sure: those who call other idiots regularly (without the necessary context for that to have meaning) have the opinion of themselves that they are unlikely to do well on any test involving imagination, empathy, or self discipline.  What one calls others reflects what one thinks of ones self.

What other kind of nonsense do we have here in this thread, deniers of the anthropocene age, claims that centralization of mining is equivalent to private issuance (huh?), and of course  十五岁的外国人真的知道中国人是谁。

What conclusions?  We should all get some sleep, read some books and stay out of the forums for a bit.  


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