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Author Topic: BetSoft Non-Payment of Jackpot  (Read 16837 times)
TwitchySeal
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August 18, 2016, 05:58:58 PM
 #221


1) Jasonort let the crooks go free, because he has no interest to claim and enforce the jackpot he won
I think Jason was very interested in claiming the jackpot.

I think after weeks of fighting he realized they had no intention of paying the jackpot to him, or anyone.  It's pretty obvious to me with the Casino Listings data + Bodogs reaction + the fact that theres tons of tiny sites that anyone can start up and they each have their own progressives worth millions of dollars that these jackpots are a fucking scam.  Nobody will ever win a glam life jackpot unless they decide to reset them.  

We don't know what Jasons life is like or how much they offered him.  Before anyone gives him shit for accepting less than the jackpot should ask themselves what would you do if they offered 10k, 20k or 30k USD. (My guess is the number was in that range)  You could take the money or tell them to fuck off and probably never see a dime. [/quote]


2) The deal Jasonort agreed is juridically not valid, because

a) A deal requires to state the deal partners and the applicable jurisdiction

b) Jasonort was extorted to accept the deal, because the operator hide his identity and he was not able to enforce his basic right to go to a court

I agree.  After I got paid I'd be posting the NDA and whatever else I wanted all over this place.  Jason shouldn't post it unless he's comfortable though.  I know a lot of people stress out big time over that kinda thing,


3) Jasonort still has the right to enforce his claim at a court of the applicable jurisdiction. But this would logically require to know it.
There are no rules or regulations that Betsoft has to follow.  No terms or conditions.  Literally none.  They answer to nobody.  The only motivation a site has to not rob their players is they might damage their reputation - which is why they sites like Betcoin and FortuneJack are spending thousands a months "advertising" on this forum yet don't spend a penny on advertising anywhere else.

4) I did not make any research so far, but there are possibly traces that could lead to the identity of the operator

a) The Winning Poker Network in Costa Rica

b) Their software provider(s) like Betsoft in Malta

c) etc...


Look into this person:


https://www.linkedin.com/in/ellisbrandi

http://www.betsoft.com/dam/jcr:286ee740-101d-4d5d-9600-61d5659fda7f/Digital_Software_Limited_RNG__Certificate.pdf

A company like Caesars would be in very big trouble with NJDGE and NVGC to put any resources into a business like Betsoft that illegally provides online gambling in NJ and NV.




In other news, I'm pretty confident we've all been misinterperting the Betsoft Jackpot tickers.  I think they are all in mBtc, not credits. (1,000 mBtc = 1 Bitcoin = $580 at the moment for the btc noobs)




It's a big deal and not a big deal at the same time since nobody is going to win them.  But technically, I think Jason's jackpot would of been BTC1,007 instead of 1,007 [.5 credits] (BTC504)

It also makes sense that since the USD versions of Betsoft Progressives list the jackpots in USD, not credits.

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August 19, 2016, 02:27:45 AM
 #222

1) Jasonort let the crooks go free, because he has no interest to claim and enforce the jackpot he won
I think Jason was very interested in claiming the jackpot.
Yeah, but claiming the jackpot and enforce the jackpot thru legal poceedings are 2 different pair of shoes. Wink


I think after weeks of fighting he realized they had no intention of paying the jackpot to him, or anyone.  It's pretty obvious to me with the Casino Listings data + Bodogs reaction + the fact that theres tons of tiny sites that anyone can start up and they each have their own progressives worth millions of dollars that these jackpots are a fucking scam. Nobody will ever win a glam life jackpot unless they decide to reset them.
 My description of fighting surely differ a little bit from the description others might have.

Jasonort technically won the jackpot. The scam is not that he did not win the jackpot, the scam is that they did not give him the coins he won.


We don't know what Jasons life is like or how much they offered him.  Before anyone gives him shit for accepting less than the jackpot should ask themselves what would you do if they offered 10k, 20k or 30k USD. (My guess is the number was in that range)  You could take the money or tell them to fuck off and probably never see a dime.
If you are not willing to enforce your claim, then taking their gift might be a good choice.

I know exactly what I would do, but everyone has his own opinion and situation.

In my opinion, their offer to pay something confirms that they are beatable. Otherwise they would have not paid a dime if Jasonart would have not won it.


3) Jasonort still has the right to enforce his claim at a court of the applicable jurisdiction. But this would logically require to know it.
There are no rules or regulations that Betsoft has to follow.  No terms or conditions.  Literally none.  They answer to nobody.  The only motivation a site has to not rob their players is they might damage their reputation - which is why the sites like Betcoin and FortuneJack are spending thousands a months "advertising" on this forum yet don't spend a penny on advertising anywhere else.
I have to disagree here:

- They answered to me...

- I know where they are located and they have to follow the laws and rules of that jurisdiction

- Yes, they do not state any terms or conditions, but in this case the laws of the applicable jurisdiction are valid.

- As Betcoin already lost their reputation, they have no motivation to not rob their players  


4) I did not make any research so far, but there are possibly traces that could lead to the identity of the operator

a) The Winning Poker Network in Costa Rica

b) Their software provider(s) like Betsoft in Malta

c) etc...


Look into this person:


https://www.linkedin.com/in/ellisbrandi

http://www.betsoft.com/dam/jcr:286ee740-101d-4d5d-9600-61d5659fda7f/Digital_Software_Limited_RNG__Certificate.pdf

A company like Caesars would be in very big trouble with NJDGE and NVGC to put any resources into a business like Betsoft that illegally provides online gambling in NJ and NV.
This is a good find! Smiley

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August 19, 2016, 02:56:17 AM
 #223

Quote
In other news, I'm pretty confident we've all been misinterperting the Betsoft Jackpot tickers.  I think they are all in mBtc, not credits. (1,000 mBtc = 1 Bitcoin = $580 at the moment for the btc noobs)

I agree and I pointed this out somewhere a while ago. He should have won more than even he thought.
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August 19, 2016, 05:40:48 AM
 #224

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but as I see it:
1. The forum and community backed jasonort up and helped him against the casino to get his jackpot winning.
2. jasonort in silience agreed on a deal with them, letting the crooks go free.
3. jasonort then silenced himself and didn't want to contribute anymore to the forum since he already got what he wanted.
4. jasonort is having another problem and now comes back for help?

1. That depends on what you mean by "his jackpot winning". He was not paid the jackpot. If you meant a tiny payoff that was nowhere near the full amount then carry on.

2. Agreed but I'm sure he felt that he was in a no-win situation where he could take the payoff or get nothing. I don't think any of us should judge him unless you have been in the same situation.

3. He definitely did not get what he wanted which was the jackpot that he legitimately won. The fact he has posted more recently suggests to me that the payoff has cleared and they cant hold anything against him now to keep him quiet and/or keep up the happy charade they made him play.

4. I don't see him asking for help. It appears to me that he is just trying to warn people about these crooks.

I do agree that Jason has played his cards for better or for worse. Maybe he was too quick to accept the payoff, or maybe he had no other choice. There is nothing he can do now other than to warn people. He's never going to see that jackpot money.

Correct on all counts CL-Ed.  I have pretty much given up any hope of seeing another dime from my lost jackpot.  Just wanting to warn others of the bad behavior of betcoin.ag and BetSoft.
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August 19, 2016, 06:03:16 AM
 #225

Guys, relax.

1. The graphs are accurate.
2. The bad girl was clearly locked/unwinnable no doubt about this.
3. There are still tons of sites where the jackpots are locked (so Betsoft is as active as ever with their scam), check this one out for example: https://www.7red.com/games/good_girl_bad_girl : Good Girl is 115k Bad Girl is 116k, never won.

I have a question about jasonort though.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but as I see it:
1. The forum and community backed jasonort up and helped him against the casino to get his jackpot winning.
2. jasonort in silience agreed on a deal with them, letting the crooks go free.
3. jasonort then silenced himself and didn't want to contribute anymore to the forum since he already got what he wanted.
4. jasonort is having another problem and now comes back for help?

Sorry if I'm wrong here, but if these points are true, I feel that jasonort have played all his cards. I can't understand his guts to come back as if nothing happened and ask for more help when he fu**ed the community in the first place.

I have said it to many who have helped me, but let me extend my thanks to the community.  I truly do owe a debt of gratitude to many people who helped me publicize my case.  Without their help I would have gotten nothing.  I'm not asking for anyone's help currently.  I am trying to help others avoid the issues that I went through.  The fact that you think you and the community are somehow the ones who got fu**ed here is laughable.  I'm pretty sure I'm the one who was fu**ed.
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August 19, 2016, 12:42:32 PM
 #226


I have said it to many who have helped me, but let me extend my thanks to the community.  I truly do owe a debt of gratitude to many people who helped me publicize my case.  Without their help I would have gotten nothing.  I'm not asking for anyone's help currently.  I am trying to help others avoid the issues that I went through.  The fact that you think you and the community are somehow the ones who got fu**ed here is laughable.  I'm pretty sure I'm the one who was fu**ed.

Let me just leave this here (says much about your integrity)

I want to thank Betcoin.ag staff for helping me come to a resolution with BetSoft on the matter of my spin on "The Glam Life". I have said in my forum posts on bitcointalk.org and other places that my issue was with BetSoft and not Betcoin. Andrew and the staff at Betcoin.ag have always been good to me, and have continued to support me in this matter with BetSoft. They were unfortunately caught in the middle of this situation as the BetSoft slots are played directly on BetSoft servers, and they not Betcoin.ag decide the payouts for the slots. Andrew has helped to connect me with BetSoft, and today we have come to a mutually agreed upon settlement. This settlement is confidential, so please don't ask the details. I will continue to play with Betcoin.ag, and hold no ill feelings towards them, quite the contrary. I look forward to continuing my relationship with Betcoin.ag and feel very good about their actions in helping me to resolve this matter.

Jason you are as two faced as it gets. But please do continue crying .
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August 19, 2016, 01:40:45 PM
 #227


I have said it to many who have helped me, but let me extend my thanks to the community.  I truly do owe a debt of gratitude to many people who helped me publicize my case.  Without their help I would have gotten nothing.  I'm not asking for anyone's help currently.  I am trying to help others avoid the issues that I went through.  The fact that you think you and the community are somehow the ones who got fu**ed here is laughable.  I'm pretty sure I'm the one who was fu**ed.

Let me just leave this here (says much about your integrity)

I want to thank Betcoin.ag staff for helping me come to a resolution with BetSoft on the matter of my spin on "The Glam Life". I have said in my forum posts on bitcointalk.org and other places that my issue was with BetSoft and not Betcoin. Andrew and the staff at Betcoin.ag have always been good to me, and have continued to support me in this matter with BetSoft. They were unfortunately caught in the middle of this situation as the BetSoft slots are played directly on BetSoft servers, and they not Betcoin.ag decide the payouts for the slots. Andrew has helped to connect me with BetSoft, and today we have come to a mutually agreed upon settlement. This settlement is confidential, so please don't ask the details. I will continue to play with Betcoin.ag, and hold no ill feelings towards them, quite the contrary. I look forward to continuing my relationship with Betcoin.ag and feel very good about their actions in helping me to resolve this matter.

Jason you are as two faced as it gets. But please do continue crying .

Let me just highlight this:

Andrew has helped to connect me with BetSoft, and today we have come to a mutually agreed upon settlement. This settlement is confidential, so please don't ask the details.

Do you know what that means? It means he was paid to shut up and back up Betcoin (until now). He took the settlement because realistically, that was all he would have been able to get from them. And now that he is able to publicize the reality of it, he does.

Correct on all counts CL-Ed.  I have pretty much given up any hope of seeing another dime from my lost jackpot.  Just wanting to warn others of the bad behavior of betcoin.ag and BetSoft.



Well, truth be told, ignorance is bliss. So is youth.

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August 19, 2016, 02:13:26 PM
 #228

OP, how much did betcoin compensate you? Is this satisfied? I hope betsoft would pay you but they are the source, should blame betsoft
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August 19, 2016, 02:41:44 PM
 #229

OP, how much did betcoin compensate you? Is this satisfied? I hope betsoft would pay you but they are the source, should blame betsoft


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August 19, 2016, 09:21:08 PM
 #230

In other news, I'm pretty confident we've all been misinterperting the Betsoft Jackpot tickers.  I think they are all in mBtc, not credits. (1,000 mBtc = 1 Bitcoin = $580 at the moment for the btc noobs)

-snip pictures-

It's a big deal and not a big deal at the same time since nobody is going to win them.  But technically, I think Jason's jackpot would of been BTC1,007 instead of 1,007 [.5 credits] (BTC504)

It also makes sense that since the USD versions of Betsoft Progressives list the jackpots in USD, not credits.

But what does this "Coin Denomination 0.50" mean? Does it mean 1,007 x 0.5 = 504 BTC?

http://imgur.com/a/hx7Ht

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August 19, 2016, 10:51:56 PM
 #231

In other news, I'm pretty confident we've all been misinterperting the Betsoft Jackpot tickers.  I think they are all in mBtc, not credits. (1,000 mBtc = 1 Bitcoin = $580 at the moment for the btc noobs)

-snip pictures-

It's a big deal and not a big deal at the same time since nobody is going to win them.  But technically, I think Jason's jackpot would of been BTC1,007 instead of 1,007 [.5 credits] (BTC504)

It also makes sense that since the USD versions of Betsoft Progressives list the jackpots in USD, not credits.

But what does this "Coin Denomination 0.50" mean? Does it mean 1,007 x 0.5 = 504 BTC?

http://imgur.com/a/hx7Ht


yes you are correct say 0.02 X 30lines x 5 coins per line max bet would be 3mBtc per spin
0.50 X30lines X 5 coins per line would be 75 mBtc per spin
1000 mBtc = 1 Btc
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August 20, 2016, 09:59:23 PM
 #232

OP, how much did betcoin compensate you? Is this satisfied? I hope betsoft would pay you but they are the source, should blame betsoft
Based on what should Betsoft pay Jasonort?

What is the agreement between Betcoin and Betsoft? Betcoin state only a juridical not valid agreement between victims and the domain betcoin.ag, not one word about Betsoft.

The licensing rule usually says:

Quote
A website which allows the player to begin gambling is offering the service. A web page may source it’s games from a variety of providers.

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August 23, 2016, 08:00:11 PM
 #233

And, the odds against hitting the "Bad Girl" jackpots are much greater than the odds against hitting the "Good Girl" jackpots; that's why the smaller, "Good Girl," jackpots were hit most often.  Furthermore, nothing in the data demonstrates that everybody was playing for the larger jackpot; in fact, the data shows quite the opposite; there were MANY people playing for the smaller, much easier to trigger, "Good Girl" jackpots, and fewer players playing for the larger, much harder to trigger, "Bad Girl" jackpots.

Nothing proves the chance for hitting the "Bad Girl" jackpots are lower. In fact, you even state, "there were MANY people playing for the smaller... "Good Girl" jackpots". Don't you think that the Good Girl jackpots were hit because they were played more often, rather than the odds being lower?

Furthermore, why are you using information from a source you've deemed wrong? We've already shown the graphs were from Casinolistings, and their data.

Also, you want to notice how Bovada has no recorded wins for 5 cent, 10 cent, 25 cent, and $1? (Like shown on the graph)

Good job switching the topic from Greedy Goblins' contradiction with Betcoin ToS to now just BetSoft issues, which you for some reason are refuting.



Last thing to point out: previously you were saying that people would rather pay for the larger jackpot. Well, then why would it be that the data shows more have gone for the two cent games instead of the higher coin games?

Greedy Goblins has nothing to do with anything here.  The game in question was the "Glam Life."  Somebody else (I wonder Who) is the person who switched the topic to "Greedy Goblins" in an attempt to manipulate the facts.  The terms associated with "Greedy Goblins" has nothing to do with the "The Glam Life."

And, no I didn't say people would play for the "larger jackpot," I tried to say that intelligent people will play for the jackpot that has the best value....the best return for their investment.  If the lower paying jackpot has better expected value (EV) then intelligent people will play that mode and vice versa.  It's math.


And, data and interpretation of data are two different things....I don't have any evidence that the data is wrong; in fact, I actually trust casinolistings motivations....I have a problem with the interpretation of the data and the methodology employed in the study.  I'm not sure, but I am surmising the data was collected by scraping the jackpot figures from a user account and then importing them into graphing software....Now, that may be practical but it's far from perfect because there are factors such as downtimes, lags, unknown contributions, ...etc which the graphing software has to extrapolate to maintain a smooth graph.  So, while I don't doubt the integrity of the casinolisting's data, nor their motivation (per se), I do have a problem with the conclusiveness of the interpretation because there are too many unknown factors that are adjusted for by assumption.

--snip--

cjmoles

Please look at my first post in this thread.  Look at the screenshots of my spin, of the paytable at the time of the spin, and at the proof that TwitchySeal provided proving that Betcoin adjusted their TOS after the fact to account for the free spins round.  After looking this over answer this question for me:  Should I have been paid the jackpot?  All of this debate about statistics is confusing and can be interpreted a million different ways.  But my spin is simple.  Either it should have won or it shouldn't.  If your answer is that it should have won, then Betsoft is scamming players and stealing their money.  And Betcoin by not standing up for their player and continuing to use this software is complicit in this scam. 

I don't pay any attention to TwitchySeal's proofs unless the sources are cited and referenced because he has a tendency at photo-shopping evidence and manipulating facts. 

But, to answer your questions: Betcoin changed their terms to comply with the terms that Betsoft clarified to negate future misinterpretations....They didn't change them to screw you out of your claim which you had already made and recorded; they didn't have to give you anything.  Should they have not clarified the rules so others could fall subject to the same conflict?  Your claim was that you should've won the jackpot on the "freespin" because they never said that it wasn't possible.  The "real" question here is whether or not a "freespin" can be interpreted as "maximum bet spin."  It is obvious that "freespin" wasn't intended to imply "max bet spin" because it wasn't coded into the software or the jackpot would've dropped.  Your problem was with the interpretation of the rules....not that you had won the jackpot and they didn't pay you.  Betcoin has to comply with the rules of the Betsoft game; they don't have the power to change Betsoft's rules, even if they wanted to change them.  You didn't win the jackpot but they paid you something out of their own pocket because of the confusion.  That jackpot is not the casino's to give away, it belongs to the players who contributed to it and it would've been wrong for them to give it to you because everybody else who contributed to it, and played by the rules, would've been wronged and could've made their own claim.

There are numerous reasons why "freespin" and "max bet spin" have different meanings.  One has to do with the contributions the two add to the jackpot, another has to do with how taxes are kept and reported, and so forth.  Should you pay taxes on free things?  Should non-contributing spins qualify....etc.  All of these factors must be taken into account when deciding if the term "free" is synonymous with the term "maximum."  The rules clearly stated that only "max bet spins" qualify....and "freespin" does not fall under the definition of a "max bet spin."

Yes, I can see how it can be confusing because the "freespin" was triggered as the result of a "max bet spin" and that's why they clarified the language, but considering all the factors involved in differentiating the two terms, it's obvious that "freespin" was never meant to be interpreted as a "max bet spin."

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August 23, 2016, 08:55:56 PM
 #234

I have no idea what those graphs are, or where they came from because you do not cite a source; therefore, I cannot give you an opinion on the accuracy of the data.

Oh.  You should really read this thread where they discuss the details of how they figured out the Betsoft Jackpots are rigged.

I assumed you had educated yourself on casinolistings.com


Over a month ago I told you:
Quote from: TwitchySeal
If you want to understand the whole story, read this entire thread, all 3 pages, where a user brought the issue up, and how the owner went about investigating it :https://www.casinolistings.com/forum/gambling/online-casinos/28043/questioning-betsoft-jackpots
Also, before questioning the integrity of the investigation, take a look into the history of CasinoListings.com


Your response made it seem like you probably didn't read it yet, so I asked again:






Then you didn't respond at all, so I reminded you again:
Quote
CJ, i put a lot of effort into responding to you, hoping you would read it.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1236667.msg15575734#msg15575734
Did you?  

You really should have done more research.
Did you know that they track over 700 online progressive jackpots? https://www.casinolistings.com/jackpots/progressives
That they have been in the business for 10+ years and seem to be pretty respected within the online casino industry?
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August 23, 2016, 09:07:19 PM
 #235

the player has the option of choosing which jackpot to play which also eliminates the possibility that the other jackpot could be won.  And, if one or the other jackpot is such that it has a higher expected return than the other, then that's the one that will be chosen.  Once it's chosen, the other jackpot cannot be won.

CJmoles thinks the reason one jackpot is never won is because everyone chooses to play for the other jackpot instead.

Anybody with half a mutant brain cell would choose the mode that had the highest jackpot....Especially those who are spending thousands of dollars in max bets to hit the jackpot.  If you had a choice to spend 5 to win 10, or 5 to win 5000.....would you still choose to spend 5 to win 10?  

people were playing in "Bad Girl" mode because the jackpots were higher.  

Players had the choice to play in the mode which they thought would be most profitable to them and when they did that it excluded the possibility that the other event could occur

He thinks everyone just picked whichever mode had the highest jackpot, resulting in the other mode never hitting.

Cj, How do you explain the smaller jackpot (the one nobody is choosing) getting hit over 100 times while not a single person wins the big jackpot that everyone picks?




Quote from: cjmoles
I don't pay any attention to TwitchySeal's proofs unless the sources are cited and referenced
Note: all the data I've provided says "Casinolistings.com" on it.
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August 23, 2016, 09:09:58 PM
 #236

I have no idea what those graphs are, or where they came from because you do not cite a source; therefore, I cannot give you an opinion on the accuracy of the data.

Oh.  You should really read this thread where they discuss the details of how they figured out the Betsoft Jackpots are rigged.

I assumed you had educated yourself on casinolistings.com


Over a month ago I told you:
Quote from: TwitchySeal
If you want to understand the whole story, read this entire thread, all 3 pages, where a user brought the issue up, and how the owner went about investigating it :https://www.casinolistings.com/forum/gambling/online-casinos/28043/questioning-betsoft-jackpots
Also, before questioning the integrity of the investigation, take a look into the history of CasinoListings.com


Your response made it seem like you probably didn't read it yet, so I asked again:






Then you didn't respond at all, so I reminded you again:
Quote
CJ, i put a lot of effort into responding to you, hoping you would read it.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1236667.msg15575734#msg15575734
Did you?  

You really should have done more research.
Did you know that they track over 700 online progressive jackpots? https://www.casinolistings.com/jackpots/progressives
That they have been in the business for 10+ years and seem to be pretty respected within the online casino industry?

Twitchy....I did the research...I just don't trust your screenshots because I know for a fact you photo-shop images so I don't even look at them. If you would cite the source that would be different.  You still didn't cite the source that demonstrates that "over 100 jackpots were won while nobody was playing them"....That is just a blatant fabrication and your information cannot be trusted.  And, if you're claiming that casinolisting's is making that claim then reference that source so that I can look at the data that supports their claim.

EDIT:  And see there you go spamming your garbage, bumping nonsense posts, to manipulate the truth....Whatever dude....you guy's are too much.  Why dilute the truth?  Why not use reason instead of lies?

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August 23, 2016, 09:12:10 PM
 #237

Oh.  You should really read this thread where they discuss the details of how they figured out the Betsoft Jackpots are rigged.

Thats where the data is posted.
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August 23, 2016, 09:14:58 PM
 #238

Oh.  You should really read this thread where they discuss the details of how they figured out the Betsoft Jackpots are rigged.

Thats where the data is posted.

You are lying....I read that and it does not demonstrate that over 100 jackpots were won while nobody was playing.  You are lying again.

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August 23, 2016, 11:49:10 PM
 #239

Oh.  You should really read this thread where they discuss the details of how they figured out the Betsoft Jackpots are rigged.

Thats where the data is posted.

You are lying....I read that and it does not demonstrate that over 100 jackpots were won while nobody was playing.  You are lying again.

I am not lying.  I haven't claimed it demonstrated that.  Again, I am not lying.
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August 24, 2016, 01:07:42 AM
 #240

Oh.  You should really read this thread where they discuss the details of how they figured out the Betsoft Jackpots are rigged.

Thats where the data is posted.

You are lying....I read that and it does not demonstrate that over 100 jackpots were won while nobody was playing.  You are lying again.

I am not lying.  I haven't claimed it demonstrated that.  Again, I am not lying.

No?

Cj, How do you explain the smaller jackpot (the one nobody is choosing) getting hit over 100 times while not a single person wins the big jackpot that everyone picks?
That is very strange, indeed, if nobody picks it, yet it is won over 100 times!  It doesn't seem like it it should be won at all if it wasn't played....Something's obviously wrong with that data too.


Do you think there's any possibility that these two graphs are accurate or no?





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