BetSoft Non-Payment of Jackpot

[jasonort]

I would like the forums opinion on whether I should have won the jackpot. Here's the background: I placed a max bet on the slot "The Glam Life". On the original bet I got 3 airplanes on 2 paylines granting me 4 bonus spins. On the final spin I get five Yachts on the payline which in my opinion should have triggered the jackpot. Instead I was paid 1000 credits. This I believe this is evidence to the fact that it was a max bet according to the pay table. 5 yachts = 200 credits x Number of bets per line. Five bets per line is the maximum. Based on them paying me 1000 credits they're essentially stating that I bet the max amount. So why would this not qualify for a jackpot? Betsoft is stating that it does not qualify because it was a bonus spin. I can find nowhere in the terms and conditions, rules of the game, or payouts description stating that a bonus spin is not eligible for the jackpot. Please take a look at the photos of my win, and of the pays, and let me know what you think. Should I have won the jackpot?  Betcoin.ag says No because it was a bonus spin.  Take a look at the screenshots I took.

http://imgur.com/a/hx7Ht

Betcoin.ag is of course saying that BetSoft is to blame.  Who can I dispute this with?

[1715440101]

1715440101

[Quickseller]

Do you have the bet ID, and hashes of the bet? How much is the jackpot in question? What are the terms of the jackpot? You should be able to use archive.today to preserve everything except the hashes of the bet but you should be able to math mathematically prove this.

edit: per the request of TwitchySeal I am quoting his post in my reply, which is the first reply to this thread (I have not investigated the accuracy of the below statements):

I did some digging when I saw OPs post on Betcoin and how aggressively comments were being censored.  It's shocking how non-transparent Betsoftgaming software is. As few explanations, terms or conditions as possible.  The game in question has a $3m progressive, but don't explain where it comes from or how it's won other than "5 yachts on max bet". 



Pretty unreal.

As usual, Betcoin makes everything as shady as possible by attempting to cover it up and make OP feel like shit for being such a crybaby.  I've personally had over 50 posts removed in the last 2 days and will continue to post all the facts below on their own forum.

Here are the facts:

• Glamlife is a progressive jackpot game provided by Betsoft Gaming
• When changing from one denomination to another, the Progressive Jackpot also changes. This indicates that each denomination has it's own independent Jackpot.
• Currently, for the Highest denomination Betcoin advertises the Glam Life Progressive Jackpot as 3,872.26 BTC (3,872.26 BTC, current value of ~$2.9 Million USD) as Seen here:

• Jason was playing with .5 mbtc denomination and the Jackpot displayed 1,007,249.91 (503.6249 BTC current value of ~$383,000)
• The only requirement that can be found anywhere within the game, Betcoin.ag or Betsoft.com/ is "5 Yacht Icons on Max Bet wins Jackpot"
• At .5 denomination Jason placed the maximum bet of 5 credits x 25 lines = 125 credits or 0.062 BTC (~$45 at the time).

   3 Scatters Triggered 4 Extra Spins (note: no multiplier or anything to indicate that alternative reels were in play)
   On thefinal spin, 5 Yacht Symbols landed on Payline 1.

• Jason was paid 1000 credits (0.5 BTC) for the spin.
• Betcoin.ag staff deleted all posts in the thread that had criticism of either Betcoin or Betsoft, posted the following message relayed from Betsoftgaming and locked the thread.  I only archived one of the deleted comments: https://archive.is/eE55g

Thank you for your inquiry. We can confirm that your win was correct in this situation. A maximum bet for this game is the highest denomination which is 1.00, whereas in this particular round, you bet 0.50, even though you chose 'Max Bet', the jackpot is only won when it is the maximum bet (1.00).

• Since locking the thread there has been no response to the appearance of each denomination having its own seperate Jackpot.
• Betcoin Moderator Plo8s comment on Issue (It's standard for him to defend Betcoin with nonsense):

plo8monster: thats totally not true lol ungod ... the bonus max out at 1000chips, and the vendor has that rule .. betcoin dont pay it the vendor does ... you guys all jump on bandwagon ... but these are vendors that do sports and casino games ..... I dont have time to get into this tonight ...but the vendor limits bonus wins @ 1000 chips .... if he were spending his money and made that spin he would be Phat with coin

-Betcoin Andrews response on deleted comments via private chat:

(10:13:16) *** Betcoin Andrew joined the chat ***
(10:13:16) *** twitchyseal joined the chat ***
(10:15:47) twitchyseal: hey andrew, you know anything about my vanishing post?
(10:17:21) Betcoin Andrew: Our casino providers do an excellent job and are used by the top online casinos. We cannot have those type of comments about them in the forum as they are constantly reviewing our website.
(10:17:26) *** Betcoin Andrew left the chat ***

• About Betsoftgaming

-In March 2013, Betsoft was granted a Category 1 license from the Alderny Gaming Control Commision (AGCC) : http://www.betsoft.com/media/betsoft-gaming-announces-completion-alderney

-July 2014, AGCC ordered Betsoft to "cease to offer gambling specific software to Category 1 eGambling licensees, Category 2 eGambling licensees and Category 2 Associate Certificate holders" pending the result of a hearing set for October 2014
https://www.gamblingcontrol.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/AGCC-Notice-R...

-October 2014, 3 days before scheduled hearing, Betsoft surrendered their license and rights to provide class 1 e-gaming to casinos located within AGCC jurisdiction:
https://www.gamblingcontrol.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Digitus-notic...

[ungod]

I play on this site and looked at the man's screenshot on a forum post there. This jackpot is worth $750,000, largest fuckaroo in bitcoin casino history in my opinion.

[yahoo62278]

I play on this site and looked at the man's screenshot on a forum post there. This jackpot is worth $750,000, largest fuckaroo in bitcoin casino history in my opinion.

If its stated in their ToS or in the games paytable that the jackpot cannot be claimed or won if in a bonus round then he was not screwed at all. On the other hand if its not stated anywhere then betcoin needs to man up and pay the guy or get neg repped like crazy

[Accountbr]

Its quite simple betsoft should be the one to release the jackpot once betcoin receives it they convert it to btc for you. If betsoft says it's not a jackpot ask them

[FFrankie]

Chat started
sdfsf
hey i have a question
   
can I win the jackpot in slots during a bonus round?
   
hello?
   
Betcoin Stuart joined the chat
   
Betcoin Stuart
Hello
   
yes I think you can]
sdfsf
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1517648.0
   
explain that one then
   
   
Betcoin Stuart
create a ticket
   
to receive a proper explanation
sdfsf
thank you


Well you gotta love the support for that site. Did you create a ticket?

[bajing]

I guess you can not claim a jackpot that, in all the gambling sites the balance you get from bonus spins can't be claimed. sorry if I'm wrong because what I know is like that.

[Felimon]

It is a shady company. I saw many scam reports about them. Those promotions is a scam. No way they will give you $750,000.

[Accountbr]

It is a shady company. I saw many scam reports about them. Those promotions is a scam. No way they will give you $750,000.

If you actually knew what is going on you would know that betcoin doesn't give the jackpot but betsoft. And the op has to contact betsoft for the jackpot but I don't think you knew that as you only post for your yobit  campaign.

[joksim299]

This should be paid, why they did not set Jackpot Number to 0 during free spins they adjust it to the bet amount

[farahe]

Betcoin.ag   scam

[jasonort]

Here is my support ticket transcript from Betcoin.ag

Ticket #57771: Glam Life Should Have Won Jackpot
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 by jasonort on June 14th, 2016
 16 Comments 0 Shares Tweets +1
I got 5 Yachts across the payline in Glam Life at Max Bet. Should have won Jackpot, but only received 1000 credits. I'm really upset. I have a screenshot of the win. How can I get it to you.
16 COMMENTS

 
jasonort: Here is the screen grab I4 days 23 hours ago
Here is the screen grab I took.

http://imgur.com/UQxeVni

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jasonort: Transaction ID for the win is4 days 23 hours ago
Transaction ID for the win is 21940441

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Betcoin Jessica: Hello jasonort, we sent this4 days 21 hours ago
Hello jasonort, we sent this to the software provider for review and we are reviewing it internally. There are a few reasons why this may happen including this was a free spin or bonus round which was not mentioned here but we will see what the software provider states very shortly.

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jasonort: It does not state anywhere4 days 20 hours ago
It does not state anywhere that a free spin does not count. I also searched BetSoft's website. I bet the Max bet, and got 5 yachts on the payline. I don't see any way that I did not win. If there were any exceptions to these rules they should be stated clearly on the pay table. There is no such language on your site or on BetSofts website.

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jasonort: Please feel free to email4 days 20 hours ago
Please feel free to email directly to discuss at jasonort@X.com or call me on my cell phone at 1-XXX-XXX-XXXX any time after 8am Central Standard Time.

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Betcoin Andrew: Hello, we are waiting to hear4 days 10 hours ago
Hello, we are waiting to hear from Betsoft on the matter in detail. Betsoft provides the software for all of the the top online casinos including Betcoin as well as all payouts directly through there interface. There would be no way for us to even change it as you are technically playing directly on Betsoft servers. Are you now saying that this was a bonus spin or free round? I haven't personally checked because we are waiting to hear from Betsoft.

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jasonort: Andrew, 4 days 9 hours ago
Andrew,
If you look at the pay line I have bet the maximum amount of 125 credits. Truthfully I don't know if this was a free spin, it was very late and I was zoning out playing. Got very excited when I saw the pay line. Was instantly devastated when I saw the payout. In my opinion it should not matter whether it was a free spin or not, as the free spin would have been obtained by betting the max bet. There is nothing stating on your website or on Betsoft's website in regards to this game stating that a bonus spin would not qualify for the jackpot. It clearly states only that five yachts on the pay line with max bet wins the jackpot. There are no caveats listed, and it is very clear that I wagered the Max bet. Further any other winning combination resulting from a bonus spin would have been paid out as a max bet because that is what was wagered. I know this is not how you would usually do things, but could you please give me a telephone call at 1-XXX-XXX-XXXX? I would really appreciate speak to a live person as this is an unusual circumstance. Thank you very much.

Jason

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jasonort: Radio Silence3 days 19 hours ago
Could one of the managers please give me an update? I know you are waiting on BetSoft, but what does your internal review show? I have not found anything in any of the terms and conditions for this game that says that I should not have won a jackpot on this spin. Please someone let me know what is happpening.

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Betcoin William: We just received a response3 days 13 hours ago
We just received a response from Betsoft and Andrew was 100% correct. Again as Andrew pointed out, you play directly on the Betsoft servers and not on Betcoin's servers as do all players of Betsoft slots across the Internet. Following is the response directly from Betsoft Gaming.

Hello Betcoin,

The jackpot can only be won on an active, paid round. So, this behavior is correct being that it was achieved during a free spin session.

Warm Regards,

Support Manager
Betsoft Gaming

Andrew knew this was the case when he first responded to you, but wanted to confirm with Betsoft even though you did not mention in your initial inquiry that this was done in a bonus round or free spin. Betsoft sets the rules, odds for the slots and the table games and we cannot change them in anyway. We appreciate you playing with us jasonort and are always here for you anytime.

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jasonort: Is there a way to dispute this with BetSoft3 days 11 hours ago
I understand that you are the middleman in this situation. Is there anyway to dispute this finding with Betsoft? I would ask you for a minute to put yourself in my position and try to be objective. Tell me where you see in any of the rules or conditions for this game does it state that a bonus spin that was obtained with a max bet would not qualify for the jackpot? I originally bet the max bet. It seems to me that Betsoft should either clearly state this, or modify their software to make it impossible for a jackpot pay line to be hit during a bonus spin. I am extremely upset by this because I have found nowhere in the rules, terms and conditions explicitly stating that this should not qualify for a jackpot. I would welcome your thoughts, and much more would appreciate a live telephone call. My cell phone number is 1-XXX-XXX-XXXX.

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Betcoin Andrew: Thank you for your3 days 10 hours ago
Thank you for your understanding. Betsoft has been doing this for well over 10 years servicing the top online casinos in the industry. You would have the same answer on any other casino. We have dealt with this before that is why I mentioned it in my first reply despite the fact that you did not mention it was a bonus round. They have also dealt with this many times before, but most players understand that it is a bonus or free round and there are different outcomes because of that. Betsoft calculates all odds, payouts, bonuses, free spins and everything with regard to the casino games and they have been industry leaders for a very long time jasonort.

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jasonort: Is there anyway to dispute this with Betsoft?3 days 9 hours ago
I do understand your position in this situation. You're just the middleman between me and Betsoft. Do not take that as acceptance of Betsoft's ruling that I will not be paid the jackpot. There is nothing in the rules that state I should not have won. If you will not to dispute this for me, I would like to take it up directly with Betsoft. Could you kindly provide me with the contact information for the person you deal with at Betsoft. Could you also provide me any technical information related directly to my spin that should have triggered jackpot. Spin ID, transaction ID, or any other information that I would need to provide to them to dispute their findings. I had hoped that as a valued customer that you would see I have a valid argument, and would fight this decision alongside me. I 100% disagree with the findings based on the fact that that it says nowhere on your site or their's that a bonus spin obtained with a max bet is not valid to win the jackpot. If you or Betsoft can provide me with this documentation where it clearly states this in the rules, then I am happy to drop my dispute. For now I believe I am still correct that I should have been paid the jackpot, and will move forward with the dispute through all channels available to me. I hope you'll help me with this endeavor.

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jasonort: I have submitted this to2 days 6 min ago
I have submitted this to Betsoft as well as to Curacao eGaming whom they are licensed through. I understand your apprehension to help me in this matter. You are dependent on Betsoft for your gaming software. Never bite the hand that feeds you. I also understand that this is not your decision, but theirs. I still feel that I am correct and I have been cheated out of a large jackpot. I may bring this to social media to get their attention. I will say nothing bad about Betcoin.ag as I know this is not your decision to make, and you have always been good to me. Any help you could offer me would be most appreciated in pursuing this, but I understand the position you are in, and the power that Betsoft holds over your industry.

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Betcoin Jessica: We don't have any1 day 23 hours ago
We don't have any apprehension about helping you. The point is this isn't the first time this has happened. Most people understand this clearly and move on especially due to the fact that it is a bonus round and you can't even bet the max that qualifies for the jackpot. Betsoft has sent the following email to us that we share with you:

"Thank you for your inquiry. We can confirm that your win was correct in this situation. A maximum bet for this game is the highest denomination which is 1.00, whereas in this particular round, you bet 0.50, even though you chose 'Max Bet', the jackpot is only won when it is the maximum bet (1.00)."

We are certainly here for you anytime.

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jasonort: Jessica, 1 day 23 hours ago
Jessica,

I find that statement by BetSoft to be totally false. The Jackpot listed within the game adjusts up or down according to the bet denomination. The jackpot for .50 was roughly 1,000,000. When the denomination increases to 1.00 the jackpot lists at 2,000,000. When you reduce to .25 the jackpot lists 500,000. A Max bet for this game is 125 credits or 5 credits x 25 lines. Again my fight is not with you. You all have been great to me as a player. I am not willing to move on because I feel that I am correct. At the very least BetSoft needs to adjust the pay table to have language stating that a bonus spin will not qualify for the jackpot. Currently they do not. This is at the very least misleading, and at the worst unfair gaming practice.

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jasonort: Everyone but you agrees with me5 hours 29 min ago
Everyone that I have brought this to agrees that this should have triggered the jackpot. AskGamblers.com is a very reputable gambling site that helps to resolve problems between casinos and their customers. Here is their response.

Zoya (AskGamblers Support)
Jun 18, 14:55 CEST

Dear Jason,

You were right. Additional information did change their mind.

Our suggestion to you is to complaint against the casino (Betcoin.ag) that you played the game and the jackpot was not validated and paid. Casino is supposed to be responsible for such issues and at least conduct some serious investigation and provide all the necessary proofs if there was such jackpot winning spin or not...

Unfortunately mentioned casino is not listed at AskGamblers, so you are not able to submit complaint using AskGamblers Complaint Services, since we do not offer that possibility for casinos that havent been reviewed yet by AskGamblers. Please check if casino has their own complaint services. If not, you may try to seek further help with Licence Authorities of Casino.

I hope that we managed to help you at least with these advices.

Sincerely,

Zoya, Customer Support - support@askgamblers.com

Zoya
Zoya (AskGamblers Support)
Jun 18, 14:41 CEST

Dear Jason,

I have just passed that info to our complaint department. I will let you know as soon as I receive feedback from them.

Sincerely,

Zoya, Customer Support - support@askgamblers.com


Jun 18, 14:37 CEST

Zoya,

Thank you again. One additional piece of information that might change their mind. The jackpot value changes as you change your bet denomination. At 0.50 max bet jackpot is roughly 1,000,000. Increase bet to 1.00 and jackpot changes to 2,000,000. When you press "max bet" button to spin the reels, it bets 125 credits for every denomination. Does this information change the opinion of the complaint department?

Zoya
Zoya (AskGamblers Support)
Jun 18, 13:06 CEST

Dear Jason,

I would like to inform you what our complaint department said regarding your issue.

After they have reviewed complaint that you described in the email sent to BetSoft, they have came to conclusion that you didn't play at max bet when you hit the 5 yachts and that is why game didn't pay the jackpot. You were supposed to choose not only max bet per line, but also max coin denomination, which for this is not 0.50, but 1.00.

I Hope the explanation provided above clarifies the situation.

Sincerely,

Zoya, Customer Support - support@askgamblers.com

Zoya
Zoya (AskGamblers Support)
Jun 18, 09:04 CEST

Dear Jason,

Thank you for understanding:)

I have already sent your email to our complaint department, so they may at least read it and if possible give you any advice.

I will let you know as soon as I receive any feedback from them.

Sincerely,

Zoya, Customer Support - support@askgamblers.com

Jun 18, 08:50 CEST

Thank you for your help, and I understand. Being someone who has seen many disputes I would be interested in your opinion on this matter. Do you think my claim is a valid one?

Zoya
Zoya (AskGamblers Support)
Jun 18, 08:34 CEST

Dear Jason,

I am really sorry, but I have to inform you that AskGamblers complaint services are only available against Casinos. Unfortunately you are not able to submit complaint here at AskGamblers against other sources then Casino.

I can only suggest to you to try solving this issue out directly with them, but you have already done that. I hope that they will be cooperative and that they will resolve your issue as soon as possible.

We would like to be informed about the progress and final outcome of your battle with Betsoft. Please keep us posted, if you do not mind.

I wish you good luck!

Have a nice day Jason.

Sincerely,

Zoya, Customer Support - support@askgamblers.com


Jun 18, 06:14 CEST

Dear askgamblers,

I would like to file a complaint, but my complaint is not against the casino that I play at (Betcoin.ag), but with the software provider (BetSoft Gaming) of the game that I have the complaint about. I am not sure how to proceed with this, and would like your assistance. Here is the email that I have sent to support at BetSoft, but have not received a response. The email describes in detail my complaint.

Dear Betsoft,

I believe that I should have been paid a jackpot while playing "The Glam Life" at Betcoin.ag. This occurred at about 10:58 CST on June 14th. I was playing at the .50 credit level, and betting the max bet of 5 credits per line. My spin matched 3 planes to 2 paylines generating 4 bonus spins. On the 4th bonus spin I matched 5 yachts across the payline which should have paid the jackpot. I was instead paid only 1000 credits. There is no language on your site, on Betcoin.ag's site, nor on the pay table for the game that says that a bonus spin does not qualify for the jackpot. It simply says match 5 yachts on the payline at the max bet to win the jackpot. I clearly bet the max amount, and as you can see from the screenshot here http://imgur.com/UQxeVni I have matched 5 yachts on the payline. The bet line says 125 which is max bet, the payline shows 5 yachts. How does that not win the jackpot? I have pursued this matter with Betcoin.ag, they have informed me that you are the final decision-makers as I was directly connected to your servers through them. And any payout would have to come from you. If I am missing something, and there is clearly something in writing that states for this game that bonus spins are not eligible for the jackpot, please show me where. Please advise. Thank you.

I have attached screenshots of both the payline from the spin in question as well as the screenshot I took of the pay table listed. I am asking you to please help bring this to BetSoft's attention and help me to resolve my dispute. Thank you for any help you can offer.

Attachment(s)
Glam Life Jackpot.jpg
Glam Life Pays.jpg

[jasonort]

Here is the image of the bet from my Betsoft account:

http://imgur.com/QNODUAp

Is the ExtID a number from BetSoft?

[TwitchySeal]

I did some digging when I saw OPs post on Betcoin and how aggressively comments were being censored.  It's shocking how non-transparent Betsoftgaming software is. As few explanations, terms or conditions as possible.  The game in question has a $3m progressive, but don't explain where it comes from or how it's won other than "5 yachts on max bet".  



Pretty unreal.

As usual, Betcoin makes everything as shady as possible by attempting to cover it up and make OP feel like shit for being such a crybaby.  I've personally had over 50 posts removed in the last 2 days and will continue to post all the facts below on their own forum.

Here are the facts:

• Glamlife is a progressive jackpot game provided by Betsoft Gaming
• When changing from one denomination to another, the Progressive Jackpot also changes. This indicates that each denomination has it's own independent Jackpot.
• Currently, for the Highest denomination Betcoin advertises the Glam Life Progressive Jackpot as 3,872.26 BTC (3,872.26 BTC, current value of ~$2.9 Million USD) as Seen here:

• Jason was playing with .5 mbtc denomination and the Jackpot displayed 1,007,249.91 (503.6249 BTC current value of ~$383,000)
• The only requirement that can be found anywhere within the game, Betcoin.ag or Betsoft.com/ is "5 Yacht Icons on Max Bet wins Jackpot"
• At .5 denomination Jason placed the maximum bet of 5 credits x 25 lines = 125 credits or 0.062 BTC (~$45 at the time).

  3 Scatters Triggered 4 Extra Spins (note: no multiplier or anything to indicate that alternative reels were in play)
   On thefinal spin, 5 Yacht Symbols landed on Payline 1.

• Jason was paid 1000 credits (0.5 BTC) for the spin.
• Betcoin.ag staff deleted all posts in the thread that had criticism of either Betcoin or Betsoft, posted the following message relayed from Betsoftgaming and locked the thread.  I only archived one of the deleted comments: https://archive.is/eE55g

Thank you for your inquiry. We can confirm that your win was correct in this situation. A maximum bet for this game is the highest denomination which is 1.00, whereas in this particular round, you bet 0.50, even though you chose 'Max Bet', the jackpot is only won when it is the maximum bet (1.00).

• Since locking the thread there has been no response to the appearance of each denomination having its own seperate Jackpot.
• Betcoin Moderator Plo8s comment on Issue (It's standard for him to defend Betcoin with nonsense):

plo8monster: thats totally not true lol ungod ... the bonus max out at 1000chips, and the vendor has that rule .. betcoin dont pay it the vendor does ... you guys all jump on bandwagon ... but these are vendors that do sports and casino games ..... I dont have time to get into this tonight ...but the vendor limits bonus wins @ 1000 chips .... if he were spending his money and made that spin he would be Phat with coin

-Betcoin Andrews response on deleted comments via private chat:

(10:13:16) *** Betcoin Andrew joined the chat ***
(10:13:16) *** twitchyseal joined the chat ***
(10:15:47) twitchyseal: hey andrew, you know anything about my vanishing post?
(10:17:21) Betcoin Andrew: Our casino providers do an excellent job and are used by the top online casinos. We cannot have those type of comments about them in the forum as they are constantly reviewing our website.
(10:17:26) *** Betcoin Andrew left the chat ***

• About Betsoftgaming

-In March 2013, Betsoft was granted a Category 1 license from the Alderny Gaming Control Commision (AGCC) : http://www.betsoft.com/media/betsoft-gaming-announces-completion-alderney

-July 2014, AGCC ordered Betsoft to "cease to offer gambling specific software to Category 1 eGambling licensees, Category 2 eGambling licensees and Category 2 Associate Certificate holders" pending the result of a hearing set for October 2014
https://www.gamblingcontrol.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/AGCC-Notice-R...

-October 2014, 3 days before scheduled hearing, Betsoft surrendered their license and rights to provide class 1 e-gaming to casinos located within AGCC jurisdiction:
https://www.gamblingcontrol.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/Digitus-notic...

[jasonort]

Here is the email I sent to Curacao eGaming which licenses BetSoft.  I also copied BetSoft Support and Betcoin.ag Support.

Jason Ortmeier <jlo41074@gmail.com>
Attachments12:41 AM (15 minutes ago)

to complaints, support, support

To whom it may concern,

I am alleging unfair gaming practices by one of your licensees, BetSoft gaming.  I placed a wager on a slot machine "The Glam Life" through Betcoin.ag who uses Betsoft software for this game.  The wager was the maxiimum bet allowed for the denomination (.50 credits) which was 5 bets per line x 25 lines, for a wager of 125 credits.  The spin resulted in winning 4 bonus spins.  On the 4th bonus spin the game showed 5 Yachts on the payline.  According to the pay table for this game this should have resulted in winning the jackpot.  I wagered the maximum bet, received the required combination of symbols (5 Yachts) on the payline,  but instead of a jackpot I received only 1000 credits.  I have received 2 explanations for this from BetSoft via Betcoin.ag's support staff.  The first said that the spin was ineligible for the jackpot because it was a bonus spin.  The evidence I use to refute this claim is the pay table which has no such language.  Nowhere does it state that a bonus spin is ineligible to win the jackpot.  Further the fact that I was paid 1000 credits proves that it was a maximum bet as the paytable shows that 5 yachts pays 200 credits x the number of bets per line.  In this case 5 (which is the maximum allowed).  200 x 5 = 1000 credits, thus proving a max bet.  The second explanation stated that a jackpot only occurs if the max bet is made at the highest denomination (1.00 credits), and I was only playing at the 0.50 denomination.  This is easily refuted by looking at the game itself.  The jackpot amount changes with the denomination played.  At the 0.50 denomination the jackpot is roughly 1,000,000 credits (See screen capture for exact disputed amount).  When the denomination is increased to 1.00 the jackpot doubles to approximately 2,0000,000 credits.  This clearly refutes the second explanation as the jackpot is variable by the denomination played, and not requiring a bet denomination of 1.00.  I am asking you to intervene in this matter and prove that you are a reputable gaming authority that does not tolerate unfair gaming practices by its licensees.  I have included screen captures for both the spin in question and for the stated pay table at the time the wager was made.

Respectfully yours,

Jason Ortmeier
2 Attachments
 

[TwitchySeal]

Check out https://www.casinolistings.com/jackpots/betsoft/glam-life-jackpot

They track the jackpot on bodog for same game and list a seperate jackpot for each denom.

Pretty strong evidence you got at least one bullshit response from both Betcoin and Betsoft.

[jasonort]

Here is the chat transcript with support on the night of my wager.  Betcoin Aidan's opinion is that this should be paid.  He was aware that this was a bonus spin..


Chat started on 15 Jun 2016, 03:52 AM (GMT+0)
(03:52:14)   *** Jason joined the chat ***
(03:52:14)   Jason: I just got 5 Yachts in a row on Glam Life with Max Bet. Should have won Jackpot, but only got 1000 credits.
(03:53:20)   *** Betcoin Aidan joined the chat ***
(03:53:21)   Betcoin Aidan: Please kindly create a ticket so I can escalate it to management. Once completed please provide me the ticket number. https://www.betcoin.ag/node/add/ticket
(03:56:00)   Jason: Could we please handle this ASAP? This should have been a major jackpot win. I'm really upset. Ticket #57771
(03:56:12)   Jason: I have a screenshot of the win. How can I get it to you?
(03:56:28)   Betcoin Aidan: please upload it to imgur for example and post the link in the ticket
(03:56:37)   Jason: 1,007,249.91 Jackpot
(03:58:02)   Jason: http://imgur.com/UQxeVni
(03:58:10)   Betcoin Aidan: post it in the ticket please
(03:58:11)   Jason: Please take a look at it. I will post to ticket as well
(03:59:50)   Jason: Posted. Is there a manager on duty right now?
(04:00:12)   Betcoin Aidan: I am waiting for an answer, but it might take a while
(04:00:35)   Jason: Any chance they can join the chat?
(04:00:46)   Jason: Did you see screenshot?
(04:00:58)   Betcoin Aidan: Yes but you won't hear anything new, that has to be checked in casino backend by him
(04:01:43)   Jason: Why would it not pay Jackpot?
(04:02:02)   Betcoin Aidan: how could I know that yet
(04:02:08)   Betcoin Aidan: are you sure you made a max bet?
(04:02:28)   Jason: OK sorry. Yes check the bet line in the screenshot.
(04:04:45)   Jason: Any chance I could get the manager to call me? My cell phone number is 1-XXX-XXX-XXXX
(04:05:23)   Betcoin Aidan: I understand the hype, but my hands are tied at the moment. Once I receive an answer, I will inform you
(04:05:35)   Jason: OK
(04:16:04)   Jason: Were you able to get in touch with management?
(04:18:37)   Betcoin Aidan: not yet, I am sorry
(04:19:23)   Jason: This is horrible.
(04:20:37)   Jason: Has anyone at your casino ever won a major jackpot?
(04:20:59)   Betcoin Aidan: yes that happened a month ago or so
(04:21:06)   Jason: How much?
(04:22:15)   Betcoin Aidan: I am not really aware, was not during my shift
(04:23:15)   Jason: When you look at the picture do you think I should have won jackpot? I know it is just your opinion, but what do you think?
(04:30:12)   Jason: Still there?
(04:30:31)   Betcoin Aidan: Yes, I am sorry but I am serving 8 people at the moment
(04:31:03)   Jason: Sorry.
(04:47:43)   Jason: When you get a minute could you please look at the imgur screenshot? I would really value your opinion on whether you think this is a jackpot winning spin.
(04:48:23)   Betcoin Aidan: I am not aware with that slot, that is why I can't say.
(04:48:38)   Jason: OK
(05:18:00)   Betcoin Aidan: I investigated on my own and I see that you made the 5 yachts hit on a free spin round. I might mislead you but free spins are not counted as a maximum bet as it does not take anything from your balance.
(05:19:02)   Jason: Are you serious? I had Max bet on the table. Where does it say anything in the rules about that not counting?
(05:19:15)   Betcoin Aidan: As I said, I might not be correct
(05:19:32)   Betcoin Aidan: it is a tricky situation here and it is not me who got the 100% accurate and final word on that
(05:19:59)   Jason: When do managers arrive to your location?
(05:20:27)   Betcoin Aidan: they are not at my location, our office is in a different country
(05:20:46)   Jason: Where is the office? What time zone?
(05:21:03)   Betcoin Aidan: London
(05:21:14)   Jason: OK
(05:38:25)   Betcoin Aidan: my shift is now over, but I wrote a big review on this situation and forwarded it to our internal channel. It will be reviewed absolute prior once a supervisor pop up.
(05:38:56)   Jason: ok thank you
(05:39:19)   Betcoin Aidan: You are most welcome. This is quite rare situation so it might take some time, please keep that in mind
(05:39:56)   Jason: Maybe 1st time ever anyone hit 5 yachts
(05:40:32)   Betcoin Aidan: the problem is not the 5 yachts but the freespin round, as internally it counts as a 0 bet
(05:40:34)   Betcoin Aidan: since it is free
(05:40:58)   Betcoin Aidan: but my personal opinion is that it should be counted as max
(05:41:04)   Betcoin Aidan: since it was triggered with max bet
(05:41:05)   Jason: I have looked everywhere in rules. I does not way that
(05:41:14)   Jason: even on BetSoft Website
(05:41:33)   Jason: Does not say that free spins on max bet don't count
(05:42:29)   Betcoin Aidan: I understand and trust me I did everything I can. Now that is in my superiors hands and I believe and hope the resolution will be quick
(05:44:29)   Jason: Thank you Aidan
(05:44:36)   *** Jason has rated the chat Good ***
(05:48:10)   *** Betcoin Aidan left the chat ***
(06:53:45)   *** Jason left the chat ***

[Fortify]

I have to say it does look pretty scammy how Betcoin.ag refuse to take any responsibility in the matter and instantly attribute it to "being on Betsoft servers". Unless this "mistake" was a regular occurrence they should be backing you up on this when speaking with Betsoft. At the very least they need to contribute something and make it right. Unfortunately long term you have to avoid these sorts of sites and software, because they can all too easily be rigged against you like this.

[notserp]

damn thats sick sure looks like you won the JP to me

[cryptosmoker]

Sad thing is this doesn't surprise me at all hearin this news.  If they dont pay OP i hope he burns betcoin rep thats only bc of all the shills to the ground so something good comes from it. Gonna happen some day anyway im sure.

[cjmoles]

Well, I won one of those jackpots at Bodog (Bovada) and I began getting paid through WU within the week....it took sometime to get totally paid off because they had a $3,000 dollar weekly withdrawal limit.  However, the jackpot I won wasn't as large as yours but it was pretty substantial.  If this win was legit, I'm sure it'll be paid....If the game was played with promotional bonus credits and not a clean unattached deposit, then you might want to read the promotional credit terms and conditions  <---  That's a common oversite that negates many "big wins." Read the terms and conditions when taking any kind of bonus, deposit bonuses included, at any online casino. Anyway, if the win's legit, you'll be paid.

[CL-Ed]

Check out https://www.casinolistings.com/jackpots/betsoft/glam-life-jackpot

They track the jackpot on bodog for same game and list a seperate jackpot for each denom.

Pretty strong evidence you got at least one bullshit response from both Betcoin and Betsoft.

https://i.gyazo.com/c84251ad1e17d69edfddb9fcbbe81246.png

Hi there, I am the guy who runs CasinoListings.com and wrote the jackpot tracker you referenced there. I have been specifically looking into Betsoft jackpots over the past 9 months or so due to a complaint that a member of our forum posted about some of them being unwinnable. I have found some very interesting and disturbing stuff including a number of "bugs" and discrepancies with their games and jackpots that lead me to believe that, at a minimum, their software QA is awful. I have focused mainly on the game Good Girl Bad Girl because it appears to be the most popular and widely played Betsoft game. Specifically:

• Jackpots on the exact same game, Good Girl Bad Girl, and the same coin size can be won with monotonous regularity (several times a week) for a couple hundred dollars at Slots.lv (sister site of Bovada), but have never been won and are worth 6 figures at Bovada, where the volume of play is higher.
• Several jackpots that are regularly won for small amounts "spiked" during February-March this year and rose to several thousands at Bovada, only to all be won in a short space of time and resume their normal pattern. If it happened on one jackpot you could chalk it up to luck, but it happened on several independent jackpots at exactly the same time. This indicates that something changed in the game's RNG, code, or reel structure, and it was later changed back.
• The jackpot contribution for Good Girl Bad Girl is being calculated incorrectly. The game allows you to play in Good Mode, Bad Mode, or both. If you play one or the other, 1% of your total bet goes to the jackpot. But if you play both, your total bet is doubled but so is the jackpot contribution so that 2% goes to the pot instead of 1%.
• There are similar concerns about several other Betsoft games, across many other casinos (i.e. its pretty apparent that the casinos are not to blame)

My post here has data and graphs that illustrate these problems clearly.

Betsoft games have separate jackpot pools depending on the coin size wagered. So if the OP was playing a 50c coin size and bet max, they should win the jackpot pool that is specific and separate to 50c wagers. i.e. the amount shown at the top of the game. If you go into the game and change the coin size you will see the jackpot amount change. It is not the case that they need to be betting maximum credits and the maximum coin size to qualify for the jackpot.

This is probably not a bonus-related issue where the casino caps the amount you may win after a bonus is claimed. In those situations, the games are usually not aware of the bonus and they pay out normally. When the player withdraws they are paid the maximum allowed under the terms then the remaining balance is zeroed. You should never claim deposit bonuses with win caps, they are sucker offers. What I would like to know is for the OP to clarify whether they played with money they deposited, or whether they were playing with a "free chip" or "no deposit bonus".

So if the OP's screenshot is real and this did occur while he was betting the maximum number of credits (125) and he was playing with real money that he deposited, I believe he should be paid the jackpot in full. There is nothing on the paytable or game rules about the jackpot not being paid in free spins mode. That is bullshit of the highest order. As to why the game did not pay it, we can only speculate. It could be another Betsoft "bug" or it could be deliberate. Or this could all be a photoshopped scam (sorry OP, I've seen them before).

The reaction of the casino disappoints me because they should be looking after their customer. It will cost them nothing if this jackpot is paid out as it is pooled money paid for by players. In fact it would be great publicity for them if one of their payers won it. I am genuinely baffled by their unprofessional responses, they don't seem to be the sharpest tools in the shed.

One thing I know for sure is that Betsoft are a shady company. Someone already posted information about their licensing disqualification in Alderney. The support rep claiming that Betsoft is found at all the top online casinos is full of it. Most of the top tier internet casinos do not offer their games. They seem to have concentrated recently on marketing their games to crappy affiliate-run casinos (i.e. cheap, underfunded) and non-regulated bitcoin only casinos that have a high risk of disappearing overnight. After seeing the numbers from our jackpot tracker and now this post I have absolutely no confidence that they are running fair jackpots, either by design or by accident or sloppy programming.

[jasonort]

This was played with my own money that was deposited.  I never accept any deposit bonuses because of all the play through requirements.  I promise you this was not a doctored photo.  Reference the chat log where Betcoin staff acknowledge 5 yachts on the pay line.

[TwitchySeal]

The jackpot contribution for Good Girl Bad Girl is being calculated incorrectly. The game allows you to play in Good Mode, Bad Mode, or both. If you play one or the other, 1% of your total bet goes to the jackpot. But if you play both, your total bet is doubled but so is the jackpot contribution so that 2% goes to the pot instead of 1%.

Where did you find the info listed on jackpot contribution?

Is there anywhere they have basic terms for progressives?  Like what it resets to, a list of Jackpots and which sites contribute to them?

[CL-Ed]

Thanks jasonort, that rules out the "capped bonus" excuse given by the casino support then. The reason I asked is that there are a small number of games where the provider blocks you from winning a progressive jackpot while you're playing with free bonus money.

Where did you find the info listed on jackpot contribution?

I worked out the jackpot contribution percentages myself using the network monitor in the Chrome browser. You can do it with Firebug or Fiddler as well. All you have to do is log in to the site you're checking and load the game. Then watch the network inspector - every few seconds it will query a Betsoft server for the current jackpot values. This is how they are updated in game. If you pick a time when no-one else is playing you can see that the same jackpot values are coming back with every update. Now make a spin and you will see a proportion of your bet amount gets added to the jackpot and you can work out the percentage. This works both in fun and real mode on Betsoft games (though the jackpot amounts are different of course).

Is there anywhere they have basic terms for progressives?  Like what it resets to, a list of Jackpots and which sites contribute to them?

Not that I have seen. I have emailed them a few times about the issues I have discovered and they never reply. You can usually work out the reset value by looking at the data or graph for a jackpot that has been won a few times and seeing what it consistently drops to when it is won.

Betsoft jackpots are specific to individual casinos or small groups of casinos run by the same operators. Bovada for example have different jackpot amounts at all their casinos instead of pooling them together. I don't think that Betsoft have any single pooled progressives that all their casinos contribute to. I don't know anything about Betcoin.ag but I am surprised that they have multi-million dollar jackpots on individual games given that they are a relative unknown in the casino industry. I assume that they must be pooled with some other casinos if they are legitimate, because I can't imagine that they have either turnover or funding that is anywhere near Bovada's for example.

One thing that bugs me about this is that if you're Betsoft and you don't want anyone to win your jackpot, wouldn't it be easier to just not let anyone spin five yachts in a row than to allow it and underpay them? This is why I can't rule out that they may be simply staffed with incompetent programmers who make very buggy games.

jasonort: I forgot to say that in my experience of several years of helping people in disputes with casinos, Curacao eGaming are utterly useless as a regulator. They are a rubber-stamping organisation, used primarily by operators trying to hide their identities and avoid paying tax in their home countries, that won't do anything to protect player interests or mediate in the event of a dispute. Their offical dispute resolution procedure is basically "sort it out yourself with the casino".

[TwitchySeal]

I think it's been proven that the denomination excuse is not a valid one, this should prove that the free spin excuse is also not valid:


From the paytable of greedygoblins, another Betsoft Jackpot Game:


By clarifying the jackpot can not be multiplied, we conclude that free spins that are a result of a max bet are eligible to win the jackpot.   

In Glam Life, there are no such clarifications.

[TwitchySeal]

Also worth noting is plo8monster (mod and official "site pro")

When the accusation was first made, he said this in the chat:

plo8monster: thats totally not true lol ungod ... the bonus max out at 1000chips, and the vendor has that rule .. betcoin dont pay it the vendor does ... you guys all jump on bandwagon ... but these are vendors that do sports and casino games ..... I dont have time to get into this tonight ...but the vendor limits bonus wins @ 1000 chips .... if he were spending his money and made that spin he would be Phat with coin

After more of the details emerged and it was clear most players did not agree with Betcoins stance he changed his tune:

plo8monster: i told you im not gonna to join that conversation ..im a poker pro smart enuf not to play slots ...i played maybe 10 times in my life
plo8monster: i am not knowledgable about slots
plo8monster: slots is not something i can help with i know zero about them
plo8monster: I had a roomate at that time playing my slots and showing me how with my bonuses ... but i am not a slots player
 plo8monster: why ya gotta be such a biiiish twitchy
plo8monster: this issue with Jason is NOT MY BUSINESS ... how many times must i tell you same thing it is waste of time

pathetic


Betcoin finally responds:

You fail to mention that jasonort plays at Betcoin.ag Casino frequently even after this and is well aware that these are Betsoft rules.  We also speak to him frequently and he very much enjoys the experience at Betcoin Casino over other bitcoin casinos.    Most of the top casinos feature Betsoft games and you play directly on the casinos servers under their rules and we pay out based on this and are credited on a big win such as this would have been.  It would have been awesome for us from a marketing perspective to announce this win, but it is not a jackpot win within Betsoft's rules as it is a free spin and not a max bet paid round according to Betsoft.  The result would have been the same on any other website. 

[notserp]

This was played with my own money that was deposited.  I never accept any deposit bonuses because of all the play through requirements.  I promise you this was not a doctored photo.  Reference the chat log where Betcoin staff acknowledge 5 yachts on the pay line.

if u accept the bonus on betcoin you get the bonus money on the side and only that amount has a play through and you can do what ever with your real balance unless it changed

[katerniko1]

im interested as i think this is valid jackpot how so betcoin.ag profile is not flagged red yet.? by trusted members of this forum
regards.
-Katerniko1

[cjmoles]

Thanks jasonort, that rules out the "capped bonus" excuse given by the casino support then. The reason I asked is that there are a small number of games where the provider blocks you from winning a progressive jackpot while you're playing with free bonus money.

Where did you find the info listed on jackpot contribution?

I worked out the jackpot contribution percentages myself using the network monitor in the Chrome browser. You can do it with Firebug or Fiddler as well. All you have to do is log in to the site you're checking and load the game. Then watch the network inspector - every few seconds it will query a Betsoft server for the current jackpot values. This is how they are updated in game. If you pick a time when no-one else is playing you can see that the same jackpot values are coming back with every update. Now make a spin and you will see a proportion of your bet amount gets added to the jackpot and you can work out the percentage. This works both in fun and real mode on Betsoft games (though the jackpot amounts are different of course).

Is there anywhere they have basic terms for progressives?  Like what it resets to, a list of Jackpots and which sites contribute to them?

Not that I have seen. I have emailed them a few times about the issues I have discovered and they never reply. You can usually work out the reset value by looking at the data or graph for a jackpot that has been won a few times and seeing what it consistently drops to when it is won.

Betsoft jackpots are specific to individual casinos or small groups of casinos run by the same operators. Bovada for example have different jackpot amounts at all their casinos instead of pooling them together. I don't think that Betsoft have any single pooled progressives that all their casinos contribute to. I don't know anything about Betcoin.ag but I am surprised that they have multi-million dollar jackpots on individual games given that they are a relative unknown in the casino industry. I assume that they must be pooled with some other casinos if they are legitimate, because I can't imagine that they have either turnover or funding that is anywhere near Bovada's for example.

One thing that bugs me about this is that if you're Betsoft and you don't want anyone to win your jackpot, wouldn't it be easier to just not let anyone spin five yachts in a row than to allow it and underpay them? This is why I can't rule out that they may be simply staffed with incompetent programmers who make very buggy games.

jasonort: I forgot to say that in my experience of several years of helping people in disputes with casinos, Curacao eGaming are utterly useless as a regulator. They are a rubber-stamping organisation, used primarily by operators trying to hide their identities and avoid paying tax in their home countries, that won't do anything to protect player interests or mediate in the event of a dispute. Their offical dispute resolution procedure is basically "sort it out yourself with the casino".

What can we do to make sure jasonort gets what he is owed.  Betsoft needs to be held accountable!  Maybe Betsoft, and any of it's supporters, should be blacklisted from the market!  I personally trust betcoin.ag and Bodog (Bovada), but Betsoft needs to be dealt with in a strong handed manner....In fact, I'm feeling cheated now too and I want all the money back that I've spent playing on their software chasing those progressives! <--Not that I believe that would ever happen, but for jasonort, what can we do to put the hurt on these thieves?

[TwitchySeal]

What can we do to make sure jasonort gets what he is owed.  Betsoft needs to be held accountable!  Maybe Betsoft, and any of it's supporters, should be blacklisted from the market!  I personally trust betcoin.ag and Bodog (Bovada), but Betsoft needs to be dealt with in a strong handed manner....In fact, I'm feeling cheated now too and I want all the money back that I've spent playing on their software chasing those progressives! <--Not that I believe that would ever happen, but for jasonort, what can we do to put the hurt on these thieves?

Spread the word, make sure players know what's going on.

Tell Betcoin that they should be helping Jason get paid,  if they want to keep your trust.

The more I dig the more I doubt these Jackpots are anything more than a gimmick.

Progessive Jackpots at Betcoin total over $5 million USD. Where is it?  If they were all hit tomorrow, what would happen? 

Why is there no RTP posted anywhere on any Betsoft game anywhere?
Why is there such a lack of transparency? 

[jasonort]

I have posted this on Betcoins forum.  Not happy with them and how they're representing my feelings of their handling of the situation.


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=386266.msg15328859#msg15328859

[CL-Ed]

I have been trying unsuccessfully to get in touch with anyone at Betsoft on jasonort's behalf.

In the meantime we have published a warning recommending that people avoid playing all Betsoft games.

The article is long, so if you want the TLDR version with our reasoning:

1. Documented discrepancies in their progressive jackpot payouts between the same game on different casinos, and even the same game with different coin sizes. Some jackpots appear to be impossible to win.
2. jasonort's experience in not being paid a legitimate progressive jackpot win.
3. The revoking of their Alderney license in 2014.
4. Their RNG audit is worthless because it has a specific disclaimer that says that they did not test the results from any games that actually use the RNG.
5. While looking into this I found that back in 2010 they were busted running a cheating keno game at Absolute Poker that gave players no chance of winning at all. I was unaware of this before now.

[CL-Ed]

Ok I want to post this here to pre-empt the casino and/or Betsoft trying to use what I found as an excuse. I found a single Betsoft game - Slots Angels - that does specifically state that you can't win the jackpot in free spins mode. I believe that this is for two reasons: 1. the game makes the entire centre reel wild during free spins and 2. it has a feature where you can get a re-spin on an already winning spin to have a second chance of winning some more. I don' think that either of these things happen in The Glam Life.

https://i.imgur.com/SPEpoVM.jpg

The fact that there is one game that specifically states this rule, along with the evidence posted before from Greedy Goblins, clearly suggests that The Glam Life is not supposed to operate like that. If it was, Betsoft would surely have put the rule in the paytable like they did on Slots Angels.

[DebitMe]

One reason that I can conceive that they do not want to pay out is that they are probably earning interest on the hundreds of thousands of dollars if not millions that they have on deposit.  Every time a progressive increases, they hit an accrual account to store the money (or at least they should if they are properly accounting for the jackpots).  These are probably invested in low risk investments and with millions of dollars that is not their own, they are making a really good return.  Paying out a few hundred thousand would put a damper on that return.

[TwitchySeal]

One reason that I can conceive that they do not want to pay out is that they are probably earning interest on the hundreds of thousands of dollars if not millions that they have on deposit.  Every time a progressive increases, they hit an accrual account to store the money (or at least they should if they are properly accounting for the jackpots).  These are probably invested in low risk investments and with millions of dollars that is not their own, they are making a really good return.  Paying out a few hundred thousand would put a damper on that return.

In other words, you think they don't want to pay out because they want to have more money.

Yes, very possible.

Perhaps you could ask Betcoin to respond to this thread.  They seem to be ignoring most, but they pay you so maybe they won't ignore you.

[jasonort]

I have asked Betcoin.ag to respond publicly in this thread. I honestly would really like to hear what their perspective is on this.  Most importantly I would like to know definitively whether they feel that I should be paid the jackpot by BetSoft.  Let's wait and see if they respond, or if they continue to bury their head in the sand an hope it goes away.

[CL-Ed]

Well if they do respond, I'd also like to know who is holding the progressive jackpot money - the casino or Betsoft?

[techgeek]

So overall this is what I conclude.

1. User deposits money wins the 5 combinations to win a jackpot
2. Poor wording on the jackpot elgible factors (based on the casinos terms) or doesnt have that bitcoin to payout to begin with flips it over on their wording?
3. User gets screwed
4.  Casino still keeps the money and doesnt payout and look shady as hell.

Cause the picture on what the OP has shows a clear win.. so i dont see why they shouldnt pay this dude out. Unless hes been caught previously cheating on the casino in other games then thats a different story.

[koshgel]

Check out https://www.casinolistings.com/jackpots/betsoft/glam-life-jackpot

They track the jackpot on bodog for same game and list a seperate jackpot for each denom.

Pretty strong evidence you got at least one bullshit response from both Betcoin and Betsoft.

Hi there, I am the guy who runs CasinoListings.com and wrote the jackpot tracker you referenced there. I have been specifically looking into Betsoft jackpots over the past 9 months or so due to a complaint that a member of our forum posted about some of them being unwinnable. I have found some very interesting and disturbing stuff including a number of "bugs" and discrepancies with their games and jackpots that lead me to believe that, at a minimum, their software QA is awful. I have focused mainly on the game Good Girl Bad Girl because it appears to be the most popular and widely played Betsoft game. Specifically:

There is some pretty substantial evidence here that some sort of foul play is at hand. Betcoin.ag has been suspiciously absent in this thread. If Betsoft has these kinds of allegations against them, Betcoin is acting complicity in the foul play by keeping their games up on their site. IMO Betcoin.ag should have to payout the jackpot, since the rules didn't explicitly state that jackpot couldn't be won on a bonus spin.

[TwitchySeal]

The only place Betcoin has posted is in the shill campaign thread:

We still have some spots open for select members in our great campaign and want to thank everyone for their interest.  Also, please keep up the great, high quality posts, we appreciate your involvement!

[jasonort]

I have been in contact with Betcoin.  They should be posting to this thread a public response.  They will support that I hit the 5 yachts on a free spin.  They are caught in the middle of this.  BetSoft is the decision maker in this matter.  They are the ones who need to pay.  As it was explained to me, and I do believe Betcoin, when you play a BetSoft game you are directly connected to their servers.  All wins are paid by them directly to your account at the casino.  All casinos who use their games receive a percentage of player losses.  It works like an affiliate program.  You bring BetSoft the players, and in return receive a percentage of their losses.  Betcoin basically has no control or say in matters like this.  All payouts come directly from BetSoft.  So to all of you out there reading this how can I get BetSoft to pay?

[Trayber]

I have reported months ago on this very forum that Betsoft are cheats and crooked. Just play their blackjack games and you'll understand why. It comes as no surprise to me that their slots are also crooked and don't pay out the jackpots as advertised. I would never trust another Betsoft game. Sucks for the OP there likely is going to be no good resolution out of this. One the betcoin.ag casino license is meaningless. Two, the Betsoft are never going to admit this game should have paid jackpot and dish out several hundred K to the player. Thats not their style, instead its to cheat players and steal money by running crooked games.

Bets off with Betsoft.

[TwitchySeal]

I have been in contact with Betcoin.  They should be posting to this thread a public response.  They will support that I hit the 5 yachts on a free spin.  They are caught in the middle of this.  BetSoft is the decision maker in this matter.  They are the ones who need to pay.  As it was explained to me, and I do believe Betcoin, when you play a BetSoft game you are directly connected to their servers.  All wins are paid by them directly to your account at the casino.  All casinos who use their games receive a percentage of player losses.  It works like an affiliate program.  You bring BetSoft the players, and in return receive a percentage of their losses.  Betcoin basically has no control or say in matters like this.  All payouts come directly from BetSoft.  So to all of you out there reading this how can I get BetSoft to pay?

Get Betcoin to quit throwing you under the bus in other threads.

There is an open scam accusation regarding Betcoin.ag that hasn't been addressed properly. They seem to replying here so posting in this thread for further exposure. Would reconsider joining the campaign of a site with an open scam accusation and questionable game provider.

Scam accusation here: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1517648

This is not a scam accusation against Betcoin.ag.  Jasonort is making a scam accusation against Betsoft and wanting us to help him more with his claim after Betsoft informed the player that a free spin doesn't qualify for the jackpot.  We have contacted Betsoft for the player on multiple occasions.  It would actually be in our benefit if jasonort won and we would have done a nice marketing campaign out of this with an interview, pictures and a lot more.  If he won, Betsoft would have paid the player's Betcoin accounts directly and we but according to Betsoft's rules a free spin doesn't qualify for the bonus.  This would be the same outcome at any online casino and we are very small client for Betsoft.  We didn't receive any benefit from this and had the player qualified for the jackpot and Betsoft paid out the jackpot, player would already have the funds.  We should note that jasonort knows that this dispute is with Betsoft and has made that very clear since day 1.  Jasonort knows that we are here for him and all of our great players anytime.  

Just play their blackjack games and you'll understand why.

This type of accusation will only give Betsoft ammunition to defend themselves.  We need evidence.

[Trayber]

I loaded up a casino (not betcoin.ag) with betsoft slots to have a look at the Glam Life paytable and it differs from the earlier screen shot in that it states that Jackpot cannot be won during any other bonus feature. Has Betsoft added this in after the fact now to cover themselves?

[jasonort]

This is bullshit of the highest order.  Of course they changed it after I have inundated them with emails to their support, and any other employee I could find the email address for.  I have yet to get a response from them.  This just shows that they screwed up in not having this language there before.  Obviously they are covering their tracks.  But my screenshots don't lie.  When I was playing this language was not there.  They should pay me this jackpot.

[TwitchySeal]

This is bullshit of the highest order.  Of course they changed it after I have inundated them with emails to their support, and any other employee I could find the email address for.  I have yet to get a response from them.  This just shows that they screwed up in not having this language there before.  Obviously they are covering their tracks.  But my screenshots don't lie.  When I was playing this language was not there.  They should pay me this jackpot.

da fuq?

Even the terms they changed it to, "any other bonus feature" are only making things more ambiguous than before.

So it can be won on some?

Seriously shady shit.

The screen shots quoted in first reply were taken by me and not doctored in any way whatsoever.

[Trayber]

This is bullshit of the highest order.  Of course they changed it after I have inundated them with emails to their support, and any other employee I could find the email address for.  I have yet to get a response from them.  This just shows that they screwed up in not having this language there before.  Obviously they are covering their tracks.  But my screenshots don't lie.  When I was playing this language was not there.  They should pay me this jackpot.

da fuq?

Even the terms they changed it to, "any other bonus feature" are only making things more ambiguous than before.

So it can be won on some?

Seriously shady shit.

The screen shots quoted in first reply were taken by me and not doctored in any way whatsoever.

I know you didn't doctor anything Twitchy. Bovada from their Poker Client you can access The Glam Life and it still shows the outdated paytable. However, you can't access the game on Bovadas main website because they have pulled The Glam Life and several other progressive Betsoft slots due to other unrelated malicious shenanigans involving the progressive meters.

[Ethey]

I would consider also that BITCOIN.AG IS SCAMMING!
My Balance suddely dissaperd after a Big Winning. And the Support says to me everything is ok.

lol.. Be aware Guys. Dont loose your Money to them!

[crairezx20]

I am sorry to hear that its a huge jackpot and i think its hard to pay it if you win it.. and i think its impossible to get it right now or they give the jackpot only half of it.. good luck and i hope betcoin can do fair to you..

[Ethey]

they will simply just steal his money like they did on me!

[Fortify]

One reason that I can conceive that they do not want to pay out is that they are probably earning interest on the hundreds of thousands of dollars if not millions that they have on deposit.  Every time a progressive increases, they hit an accrual account to store the money (or at least they should if they are properly accounting for the jackpots).  These are probably invested in low risk investments and with millions of dollars that is not their own, they are making a really good return.  Paying out a few hundred thousand would put a damper on that return.

This is very possible. The downfall of these companies is usually their arrogance in the face of public opinion. If you annoy enough people and the regulators eventually become aware of it, they are likely to suffer for this fraud. I think Betcoin are absolutely responsible here, if you are using a white label solution then you better be damn sure it is all correct and legitimate or you shouldn't use it. They will be paying BIG amounts to Betsoft to license this software, possibly on a monthly or annual basis, so are very much condoning what is happening here. Betsoft is hiding behind their "offshore" jurisdiction but this protection has been burst many times in the past and jail time may be coming to them if you persist.

[jasonort]

BetSoft has been getting killed in the court of public opinion.  Both Bovada and slots.lv have quietly removed the progressive Jackpot Games from their site.  Here are some of the articles and forum posts on this:
 
http://www.gpwa.org/forum/casinolistings-issues-betsoft-gaming-warning-227986.html
 
https://www.casinolistings.com/news/2016/06/warning-avoid-all-betsoft-slots-and-casino-games
 
http://vegasclick.com/online/betsoft-jackpot-issue
 
http://www.casinomeister.com/forums/showthread.php?t=71002

[TwitchySeal]

http://www.latestcasinobonuses.com/article/warning-betsoft-progressives-problem

[cjmoles]

http://www.latestcasinobonuses.com/article/warning-betsoft-progressives-problem

Nice!  Building awareness here!  That's how it's done!  I hope Betsoft gets right....but we've all seen how that goes once these places force the issue....However, they do have some of the better software so maybe they'll try to salvage their reputation, fix their ways, and pay jason.

[ndnh]

This is bullshit of the highest order.  Of course they changed it after I have inundated them with emails to their support, and any other employee I could find the email address for.  I have yet to get a response from them.  This just shows that they screwed up in not having this language there before.  Obviously they are covering their tracks.  But my screenshots don't lie.  When I was playing this language was not there.  They should pay me this jackpot.

I checked. It does appear on the Paytable now.


I Googled The Glam Life Paytable, and the first image I got:



At this rate they would soon be adding "No bet can win more than the bet amount"...

[TwitchySeal]

Here are the three versions of the games pay schedule that I've seen over the past few days:





Also, caught Betcoin demonstrating their remarkable lack of both ethics and intelligence.

Betcoins Terms as of 13 Apr 2016 08:10:37 UTC: https://archive.is/GntG5

The Same Terms as of today, 30 Jun 2016 18:17:27 UTC: https://archive.is/W0wVZ

Live Version: https://www.betcoin.ag/node/3549

They added these two sentences after Jason hit the jackpot.

Bonus round and free spins do not qualify for the jackpot bonuses pursuant to casino software provider rules. Only real money rounds qualify for the jackpot bonuses.

I personally trust betcoin.ag

How about now?

[ungod]

disgusting

[bitcoinnoisseur]

Nice find Twitchy. You gotta love that; Change the Terms of Service but make it look like it was always that way by not changing the Last Updated date. That is criminal all by itself. Probably took those idiots a whole lot of time to figure out how to do that too.

[techgeek]

Wow, because a player hits and they re-word the terms of service just like that..

It shows to never ever play on that site lol.

Thats seriously some shady crap though and its amazing they still havent replied back on here based on the response here. Which doesnt make it any better on their rep.

[joksim299]

Most unprofessional bitcoin casino. Nice find Twichy!

[TwitchySeal]

HOF comment from Betcoin chat

Betcoin Andrew: The last comment I am allowed to make on this is jasonort is very happy with the way we have vigorously handled the matter.

[bitcoinnoisseur]

HOF comment from Betcoin chat

Betcoin Andrew: The last comment I am allowed to make on this is jasonort is very happy with the way we have vigorously handled the matter.

And why haven't we heard that from him? How have they vigorously handled it when they completely blew him off until he started to make big waves on all the casino sites? According to jasonort, Betcoin was supposed to call him yesterday. He said he would be back and let everyone know how it went. He has not been back that I know of. So, if he is very happy does that mean that they did call him? If so then why hasn't he been back to let everyone know what happened? Is Betcoin making him keep quiet? Too many unanswered questions.

[Lutpin]

Betcoin Andrew: The last comment I am allowed to make on this is jasonort is very happy with the way we have vigorously handled the matter.

And why haven't we heard that from him?
He has not been back that I know of.
Why hasn't he been back to let everyone know what happened?
Is Betcoin making him keep quiet?

My guess: Government trained assassins.



(I had to laugh a bit on the "vigorously" part, given that they are a no-show in this and countless other threads regarding similar circumstances.)

[Yoga4]

If you wanna know the truth why you haven't heard from Jason, its because he was probably "paid off" by Betcoin to simply shut up about it. This topic has drastically killed their marketing and player base. I'm sure that Jason and Betcoin talked it out, and decided on a number (much smaller than the jackpot) for him to just stop talking.

[TwitchySeal]

If you wanna know the truth why you haven't heard from Jason, its because he was probably "paid off" by Betcoin to simply shut up about it. This topic has drastically killed their marketing and player base. I'm sure that Jason and Betcoin talked it out, and decided on a number (much smaller than the jackpot) for him to just stop talking.

Hopefully they are trying to find 500+ bitcoin to pay Jason.  

The fact that Jason has gone quiet probably means communication has been made, just not a resolution.

Betcoin has completely changed their tune from: (I'm paraphrasing here)

"Of course Jason didn't win. Any casino would agree with us, it's not our fault, we're just following the rules (that don't exist) usually players understand this, we wonder why Jason doesn't?"

To:

Don't worry about the spammers guys.  They also help drive traffic to Betcoin.ag and keep our thread at the top.  

As the forum rep, all we can say right now is that jasonort has continued to play at Betcoin everyday since his Betsoft issue and we have worked very hard for him on this.  We will always do what is right for our players and there will be more information to follow.  We have not talked publicly about the matter because it just leads to speculation and trolling which is not productive or conducive to progress.  This happened to jasonort and he still plays with us almost everyday.  We would have done the same for all of our great players.  

On another note, our traffic and play has been very solid in all aspects and we want to thank all of your for your support and involvement in our program.  Another stage coming soon!

(I'm the spammer they are referring to by the way)

Thats right, they have claimed "We have not talked publicly about the matter"

Despite over a week ago sig campaign thread:

Most of the top casinos feature Betsoft games and you play directly on the casinos servers under their rules and we pay out based on this and are credited on a big win such as this would have been.  It would have been awesome for us from a marketing perspective to announce this win, but it is not a jackpot win within Betsoft's rules as it is a free spin and not a max bet paid round according to Betsoft.  The result would have been the same on any other website.  

Or 3 days after Jason hit the jackpot:






More recently in their chat room:

[Cyaren]

Eww. It's always so disgusting when a casino refuses to pay out a jackpot when they can easily afford to do so, and people have been losing on their site for years and years.

Hopefully you can get your coins back, but seriously the amount seems way too high. Good luck.

[RichGang]

Jason ain't responding again. He might have been bribed with say 50k $

[bitcoinnoisseur]

Jason ain't responding again. He might have been bribed with say 50k $

And probably forced to sign an NDA, either with Betsoft, Betcoin or both.

[TwitchySeal]

Jason ain't responding again. He might have been bribed with say 50k $

And probably forced to sign an NDA. Either with Betsoft, Betcoin or both.

That NDA would be pretty useless since they would have to consent to whatever jurisdiction Jason lives in to enforce it.
(it could only be enforced by a court in his country)

[bitcoinnoisseur]

Jason ain't responding again. He might have been bribed with say 50k $

And probably forced to sign an NDA. Either with Betsoft, Betcoin or both.

That NDA would be pretty useless since they would have to consent to whatever jurisdiction Jason lives in to enforce it.
(it could only be enforced by a court in his country)

I don't have any clue then why he hasn't said a word since he was supposed to get a call from Betcoin.

[cjmoles]

Just got an Email from Bovada and they are disabling all their Betsoft games until they can figure out what to do about the problems with the Betsoft software.  They're acknowledging there's a problem and they are investigating the situation.

[Betcoin.AG]

We wanted to update everyone with the great news after a tremendous amount of hard work by the Betcoin.ag Staff.

Jasonort Case Resolution

From the very second our great player jasonort came to us with his casino related issue, Betcoin.ag took immediate action working with the software provider to understand, explain and then complete a proper resolution of the matter. We were asked and chose to remain silent on the matter to the public because statements would only cause speculation which would not be conducive to what we believed would be a proper outcome.

The Betcoin.ag staff spent hours every day working and speaking with jasonort and the software provider to do what we thought was right for our great players. It took just over two weeks and many hours to complete what all parties believe is a proper and fair resolution. We would have it no other way.

Throughout this entire process jasonort can attest to the fact that the Betcoin.ag staff made ourselves available nearly 24/7 to answer every question and provide proper updates when available as we would have done for all of our great players. jasonort was also clear to never blame Betcoin.ag for this issue as this was clearly a software issue and would have happened on any other online casino.

As a result of the speculation however our reputation has taken a hit in this forum but we know that we did the right thing here and will always continue to do so. Throughout this entire circumstance jasonort continued to play at Betcoin.ag and so did many new and old Betcoin.ag players. We are very thankful for that.

We will always do the right thing at Betcoin.ag for our great players and we look forward to being your favorite place to play for many years to come. Thank you!

We will be holding a fireside chat in the Betcoin player chat with jasonort to discuss at 6:30pm EST.  Thank you all.  

During the fireside chat, Jasonort has announced a self funded  Thank You Freeroll that Betcoin Poker will match which will take place on Sunday, July 24, 2016.  Details to follow!  Mark your calendars!

[jasonort]

I am pleased to say that this matter has been resolved to my satisfaction by all parties involved. Responsibility has been taken by Betcoin.ag for lack of clarification from their customer support, Betsoft has acknowledged that the wording on the pay table may have been cause for misunderstanding with respect to jackpot eligibility. Both parties have been very helpful and cooperative in resolving this and made the necessary adjustments.

[TwitchySeal]

We will be holding a fireside chat in the Betcoin player chat with jasonort to discuss at 6:30pm EST.  Thank you all.  

How about a fireside chat somewhere that you can't bribe, ban and censor users based on what they say?

Or will you continue to pick and choose what you respond to and ignore the rest?

[yahoo62278]

We will be holding a fireside chat in the Betcoin player chat with jasonort to discuss at 6:30pm EST.  Thank you all.  

How about a fireside chat somewhere that you can't bribe, ban and censor users based on what they say?

Or will you continue to pick and choose what you respond to and ignore the rest?

Were you at the fireside chat?

I personally would like to see details of what deal was made to jasonrt. Personally the fact that nothing is being handled publically shows the lack of professionalism by betcoin and betsoft. With them also crying in previous post about their rep taking a hit is hilarious.

To betcoin.ag your rep took a hit because you guys decided to take it upon yourselves to handle this in a totally unacceptable way. Sure you can claim jasonrt is happy. Id be happy too if i went from getting 0 of what i legitimately won to getting something(who knows what that something is).

Bottom line DO NOT PLAY at betcoin as youll obviously be fucked over n have to settle for less than expected.

 "This settlement is confidential, so please don't ask the details." This is a direct quote from jasonrt on the betcoin ag website. Basically confirming he was paid to shut up.

Jason imglad you got some money out of the deal but im pretty sure id hit the withdrawal button and run before they fuck you outta some more money

[TwitchySeal]

We will be holding a fireside chat in the Betcoin player chat with jasonort to discuss at 6:30pm EST.  Thank you all.  

How about a fireside chat somewhere that you can't bribe, ban and censor users based on what they say?

Or will you continue to pick and choose what you respond to and ignore the rest?

Were you at the fireside chat?

I personally would like to see details of what deal was made to jasonrt. Personally the fact that nothing is being handled publically shows the lack of professionalism by betcoin and betsoft. With them also crying in previous post about their rep taking a hit is hilarious.

To betcoin.ag your rep took a hit because you guys decided to take it upon yourselves to handle this in a totally unacceptable way. Sure you can claim jasonrt is happy. Id be happy too if i went from getting 0 of what i legitimately won to getting something(who knows what that something is).

Bottom line DO NOT PLAY at betcoin as youll obviously be fucked over n have to settle for less than expected.

 "This settlement is confidential, so please don't ask the details." This is a direct quote from jasonrt on the betcoin ag website. Basically confirming he was paid to shut up.

Jason imglad you got some money out of the deal but im pretty sure id hit the withdrawal button and run before they fuck you outta some more money

No, I am banned from Betcoin.

I often create new accounts to talk to other Betcoin players, but as soon as management notices I'm there they ban the account and delete anything I've said from all archives.  (fireside chat would be bad time to create new account for me)

Posting these questions to Jason in each thread Betcoin decided to share their "resolution" 



Jason,

I'm glad you got paid something but obviously it was not the 505+ BTC jackpot. 

1)  How much did you get?

2)  Was your voice here on the forum part of the negotiations?  ( Translate: have you been paid to post nice things about Betcoin )

3)  Will you continue to play Glam Life? 

4)  Will you continue to play the other progressive jackpot slots provided by Betsoft?

5)  Do you support Betcoins decision to continue offering these games, unlike Bovada, Slots.lv, Bitcasino.io, Vegascasino.io and any other site who removed them after learning of your experience?

[CL-Ed]

We wanted to update everyone with the great news after a tremendous amount of hard work by the Betcoin.ag Staff.

Jasonort Case Resolution

blah blah bullshit blah

That is one of the lamest things that I have ever had the misfortune of reading. While you're busy talking this crap and paying off poor Jason (who is in a no-win situation) to shut up, other casinos are busy dropping Betsoft's crooked games completely. It is clear that neither you nor Betsoft has paid this jackpot that Jason won, so you're just as bad as each other. You could have stood up for your player and done the right thing and applied some pressure to Betsoft and compelled them to pay but you didn't. You wimped out and sadly for you have ruined your reputation in the process.

Casino Listings will continue to actively warn people against playing at your casino because you simply cannot be trusted.

[actmyname]

Looks like Betcoin.ag finally changed the "Last updated" on their ToS.

[Stunna]

Looks like Betcoin.ag finally changed the "Last updated" on their ToS.

Everything we all hate about fiat money casinos in a bitcoin one.

All around scammy behavior, how many accounts do they have on this forum?

[Lutpin]

Everything we all hate about fiat money casinos in a bitcoin one.
All around scammy behavior, how many accounts do they have on this forum?

Well, let's count. There's those of course:
BetcoinSports
Betcoin.AG

Then there's aswell:
BetcoinPoker
Betcoin Sports
BetcoinPartners

Maybe those are theirs, maybe not:
BetcoinCasino
Betcoin Gaming

And that's just the ones being named BetcoinXYZ.

Looks like Betcoin.ag finally changed the "Last updated" on their ToS.

And it only needed a negative feedback for them to do that.
You'd think countless posts by Twitchy pointing it out would be sufficient. Turns out, they aren't.

[TwitchySeal]

Everything we all hate about fiat money casinos in a bitcoin one.
All around scammy behavior, how many accounts do they have on this forum?

Well, let's count. There's those of course:
BetcoinSports
Betcoin.AG

Then there's aswell:
BetcoinPoker
Betcoin Sports
BetcoinPartners

Maybe those are theirs, maybe not:
BetcoinCasino
Betcoin Gaming

And that's just the ones being named BetcoinXYZ.

Looks like Betcoin.ag finally changed the "Last updated" on their ToS.

And it only needed a negative feedback for them to do that.
You'd think countless posts by Twitchy pointing it out would be sufficient. Turns out, they aren't.

Don't forget these: (I ran them out of town a few months ago)
ftwbtc1
noobtc


https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1322261.0  <---scroll about half way down op to "Betcoin Shill Section" to connect ftwbtc1 to noobtc
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1365849.0 <---- ftwbtc1 = Betcoin Jessica

If anyone ever wonders what happens when a shill is reported to the manager of the sig campaign sponsered by the actual shill:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1236667.msg13963263#msg13963263
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1236667.msg13964901#msg13964901

[TwitchySeal]

https://www.casinolistings.com/news/2016/07/betcoin-ag-betsoft-force-shafted-jackpot-winner-into-agreement

Owner of Casinolistings commented:

I feel sorry for Jason. He's been placed in the position where he either gets whatever small amount they paid him off with or nothing. The casino is unregulated and unaccountable and Betsoft's games are crooked, so what is he going to do?

The casino's statement above almost makes me vomit in my mouth. I've added Betcoin.ag to our blacklist today. They will remain there until such time as Jason is paid his full million mBTC win (i.e. most likely forever).

Also, as far as Bovada goes, they just released another statement (well email) explaining how they would deal with the missing progressive jackpot funds:

As promised, we have news for you regarding our recent changes to our casino game lineup and the resulting impact to our progressive jackpot offering. We know how popular some of these progressive jackpot games are for our players and so to help make up for those games, over the coming weeks we'll be adding extra amounts in total of $1.25M to a number of our own jackpot games.    
    Today, the three games below will have these amounts added to their current progressive jackpots:   
    For desktop players:
•   Food Fight: $185,000
•   Super Diamond Mine: $125,000   
    For mobile and download:
•   Jackpot Piñatas: $187,500
On Monday July 11, we will begin to distribute another $750,000 across select games by increasing the starting jackpot amounts from $1000 to $5000 per jackpot, and matching jackpot contributions by an additional 1% per wager. This will continue until the $750,000 figure has been met.   
    The games offering these elevated jackpots are:
•   Bulletproof Babes
•   Sevens and Stripes
•   Caesar's Empire
•   Aztec's Treasure
•   Cleopatra's Gold
•   Dirty Martini   
    We thank you for your continued support, please stay tuned for exciting new game releases in the coming months as we continue our search to provide you with games of the highest possible quality and entertainment.    
    Sincerely,


Bovada Customer Service
service@bovada.lv
1-888-263-0000   

     You are subscribed to promotional mailings. We respect your privacy and you can unsubscribe any time. To report abuse, please contact abuse@bovada.lv.

BOVADA is a registered trademark. All Rights Reserved.

P.O. Box 2190, Kahnawake, QC, J0L 1B0.      

EDM-17511

In case anyone is curious, Betcoin is currently advertising a total of BTC4,215.7 worth of progressives. (Almost $2.8million usd)

However, when you go into the games and add up each individual denomination jackpot, you get BTC2,978.5  (Just under $2million usd)









Other relevant stuff:

Betcoin confirmed they were paying out as of Jan 2014 when player noticed "progressive: no".:

Ok I'm trying this out.  I'm waiting on deposit to confirm.

I notice when I click progressives on the top of screen I'm taken to some slot options.  Then if I hover over the slots it says "progressive: no".  are they progressive payout or not?

edit:  my deposit has a confirmation but it still shows that I have the balance but it's not available

What is your username?  You can pm us if you wish.  Deposits are instant with zero confirmations.  

The progressives are definitely paying out.  We are looking into this right now.  

Since then I believe exactly one progressive has been hit.  It's been 2 years since.

Congratulations to www.BetcoinCasino.com's btc2014 who scored a 3,800 mbtc progressive jackpot at 3D Slot Greedy Goblins.  The progressives have now reached 443,268.85 mbtc at www.BetcoinCasino.com.  Come win some bitcoin today.



http://www.betcoincasino.com/games/progressive

[cjmoles]

I am pleased to say that this matter has been resolved to my satisfaction by all parties involved. Responsibility has been taken by Betcoin.ag for lack of clarification from their customer support, Betsoft has acknowledged that the wording on the pay table may have been cause for misunderstanding with respect to jackpot eligibility. Both parties have been very helpful and cooperative in resolving this and made the necessary adjustments.

Nice!  Does that mean Betsoft is off the hook?....or, did you sign a ND in those regards?  Anyhow, congratulations on getting something....we can't let the bad guys ruin it for everyone!  Great campaign to expose them.  I hope it was a fair settlement!

[TwitchySeal]

I am pleased to say that this matter has been resolved to my satisfaction by all parties involved. Responsibility has been taken by Betcoin.ag for lack of clarification from their customer support, Betsoft has acknowledged that the wording on the pay table may have been cause for misunderstanding with respect to jackpot eligibility. Both parties have been very helpful and cooperative in resolving this and made the necessary adjustments.

Nice!  Does that mean Betsoft is off the hook?....or, did you sign a ND in those regards?  Anyhow, congratulations on getting something....we can't let the bad guys ruin it for everyone!  Great campaign to expose them.  I hope it was a fair settlement!

Are you really that retarded cjmoles?

[Lutpin]

I am pleased to say that this matter has been resolved to my satisfaction by all parties involved. Responsibility has been taken by Betcoin.ag for lack of clarification from their customer support, Betsoft has acknowledged that the wording on the pay table may have been cause for misunderstanding with respect to jackpot eligibility. Both parties have been very helpful and cooperative in resolving this and made the necessary adjustments.

Nice!  Does that mean Betsoft is off the hook?....or, did you sign a ND in those regards?  Anyhow, congratulations on getting something....we can't let the bad guys ruin it for everyone!  Great campaign to expose them.  I hope it was a fair settlement!

Are you really that retarded cjmoles?

Probably needs to put their conscience at rest, as they still are advertising betcoin.ag...
"The bad guys" are including the company you are featuring in both, your signature and your avatar,
or how can you explain yourself that they didn't yet drop all BetSoft software/games from their site?

[Lutpin]

I think jasonrt said that he had reached a settlement.

A "settlement" means less than what he was obligated to receive.

I just hope that jasonrt got a fair settlement

Do you think anything less than the full amount of what was advertised to him would be "fair"?
How would you judge this situation, if you were robbed of your winning, which have been achieved fairly according to the back then running rules?

however, he seems to be satisfied with the result.

He's gotten something, probably that's better than getting nothing at all. Doesn't change the situation though, he had to settle for less than what he should get.

As for the Betcoin's signature and Avatar. It's no secret that I support Betcoin.ag. I have been playing with them a long time and they've always been more than fair with me.

Yet there are so many problems every now and then surfacing with them, this thread only being one of them.

As far as dropping the Betsoft software: I don't know the details of the settlement discussions but I trust Betcoin.ag's judgement. 

ALL reputable competitors have dropped BetSoft games immediately after hearing about this and similar issues with the provider.
Regardless of the settlement, can you really stand behind the decision of betcoin not to do the same?

[Fortify]

Since then I believe exactly one progressive has been hit.  It's been 2 years since.

Congratulations to www.BetcoinCasino.com's btc2014 who scored a 3,800 mbtc progressive jackpot at 3D Slot Greedy Goblins.  The progressives have now reached 443,268.85 mbtc at www.BetcoinCasino.com.  Come win some bitcoin today.



http://www.betcoincasino.com/games/progressive

Are you saying that a user called "btc2014" won the only jackpot paid out in the last 2 years or am I reading that totally wrong? Now if I did read it right, it seems like a stunningly generic and hastily made up fake account that "won the jackpot". Out of all the usernames in the world, the winner of a jackpot bitcoin payout in 2014 was called "btc2014" and not one of the million random usernames people use like "billybob1983". As this whole thread proves, it's highly questionable that they ever intended to make a jackpot winnable or release it

[Lutpin]

Just got an Email from Bovada and they are disabling all their Betsoft games until they can figure out what to do about the problems with the Betsoft software.  They're acknowledging there's a problem and they are investigating the situation.

Hey betcoin fan, where did your post go?!

[RichGang]

I am pleased to say that this matter has been resolved to my satisfaction by all parties involved. Responsibility has been taken by Betcoin.ag for lack of clarification from their customer support, Betsoft has acknowledged that the wording on the pay table may have been cause for misunderstanding with respect to jackpot eligibility. Both parties have been very helpful and cooperative in resolving this and made the necessary adjustments.

Am I the only one tjat thinks this jason dude is begining to sound annoying?
He now writes as if betcoin tells him what to say or betcoin is actu allly posting on his behalf.
DUDE TELL US HOW IT WAS RESOLVED, TELL US HOW MUCH YOU WHERE PAID OR JUST CLOSE THE fucCKN THREAD

[TwitchySeal]

I am pleased to say that this matter has been resolved to my satisfaction by all parties involved. Responsibility has been taken by Betcoin.ag for lack of clarification from their customer support, Betsoft has acknowledged that the wording on the pay table may have been cause for misunderstanding with respect to jackpot eligibility. Both parties have been very helpful and cooperative in resolving this and made the necessary adjustments.

Am I the only one tjat thinks this jason dude is begining to sound annoying?
He now writes as if betcoin tells him what to say or betcoin is actu allly posting on his behalf.
DUDE TELL US HOW IT WAS RESOLVED, TELL US HOW MUCH YOU WHERE PAID OR JUST CLOSE THE fucCKN THREAD

DUDE,

betcoin is obviously telling him what to say so...

rip jasonoort

[RichGang]

He goes ranting everywhere about how he got scammed,  then suddenly goes annoyingly silent or post off the point replies. With due respek to the people reading this, I must say fuck u jason

[CL-Ed]

Am I the only one tjat thinks this jason dude is begining to sound annoying?

Remember when someone told you that it's better to shut your mouth and let people think you're an idiot, rather than open it and remove all doubt? Oh I see, sorry. You never got that message.

It is obvious that he has been coerced into saying what he has said. He probably wouldn't have been paid anything without posting it. Put yourself in his shoes and have a think about what you would do in the same situation: agree and get something, don't agree and get nothing.

Imagine if he had been paid the whole amount. He would be ecstatic and telling everyone. Betcoin would be making more of their BS marketing drivel posts and Betsoft would be issuing press releases and telling everyone what great guys they are. None of these things have happened so we can safely assume that he hasn't been paid the full amount that he won.

That is all anyone needs to know. What difference does it make to you how much they paid him? No matter what he received it was less than he should have, so he has been ripped off. Yet Betcoin and Betsoft continue on their merry way with no care, no responsibility. You would be smarter to remember and concentrate on that rather than abusing a victim who was put in a no-win situation.

[TwitchySeal]

Betcoin Jessica stopped by chat earlier I see.  Grabbed the archive and edited it down to relevant comments and reversed the bottom to top reading order.  Entire unedited version here:
https://archive.is/pSjUZ

ungod: jessica is betcoin trying to say that casinolistings.com a reputable online casino review site for over 10 years published a false independent review of betsoft games? thats the only way i can see justifying to continuing to carry betsoft slots in the face of that independent 3rd party review is if youre trying to say they fabricated it or something wheres the motive? is this real life?

Betcoin Jessica: There will be a very good article coming this week explaining how casino games work for online casinos. Clearly some clarification is necessary.

ungod: how casino games work for online casinos? we dont need a dummy article we need a removal of a provider who turns jackpots off and on and dials frequencies up and down at will there is 100% irrefutable evidence from an independent 3rd party review of such things...this is bullshit

Betcoin Jessica: ungod you need the knowledge my friend..you do.

ungod: you didnt see the casinolistings.com 9 month independent review of jackpot frequencies?

Betcoin Jessica: They need to publish an independent review of their jackpots from a reputable company.

ungod: a company of their choosing perhaps? and time to turn their rig off for the upcoming review? provide us with a fair provider one who hasnt been found guilty time and time again isnt that your job as a casino affiliate?

Betcoin Jessica: ungod, what we love about you is you talk like you actually are fully informed. It's amusing.

ungod: jessica is saying betsoft needs some time to turn all the rigs off on the slots and get them in order and pick their own company to review them basically jessica is saying that casinolistings.com isnt a reputable 3rd party reviewer  thats the bottom line you guys need betsoft to keep the doors open

BigThangz: ungod don't waste your time fighting a winless battle like ohyeah

Betcoin Jessica: Oh and growing from a staff of 3 to 40. Some people get lucky. Oh and giving the people the best opportunity in online poker.

ungod: lets be real,  its easy to grow staff from 3 to 40 when you have over 3000 coins collected towards unwinnable progressive jackpots

Betcoin Jessica: Yeah, it's easy. lol

ungod: 0 jackpot wins in 2 years? across all betsoft progressives?

Betcoin Jessica: I tell you this has been so easy and we have gotten so lucky!

ungod: why is casinolistings.com not a reputable company to present an independent 3rd party review?

ungod: bovada took em all down slots.lv took em down there are review sites that have been open for 20 years

Betcoin Jessica: lol

Betcoin Jessica: bovada and slots.lv are the same company ungod

ungod: not only did they take them down they added the bullshit jackpot values to their other games to make up for it you guys and betsoft could be the same company easily as far as we the players are concerned\

Betcoin Jessica: Also, you should really try to understand the real reason they took them down.

ungod: in fact that seems likely that the both of you are controlled by the same parent company

Betcoin Jessica: I wish!

ungod: why else would you refuse so vehemently to address the 3rd party independent study

Betcoin Jessica: We are waiting for their statement and study and you do realize that every one of our competitors and nearly every casino besides bovada has them?

Betcoin Jessica: You make statements like we are the only one. Lol

BigThangz: lol

Betcoin Jessica: lol!

Betcoin Jessica: ungod, ungod ungod, you should create a casino enter into a deal with some companies and then you will find out what goes on between provider and operator.

ungod: or are you guys going to keep pretending you have inside information on the bovada/betsoft breakoff? and it miraculously has nothing to do with the casinolistings study?

ungod: ok i called that one right?

Betcoin Jessica: There is a lot to it when you get to Betsoft's level and Bovada's level from fees to commissions to advetising to exclusives to egos

Betcoin Jessica: ungod, we learn more about you everyday and know just what type of person you are. Your heart is somewhat in the right place and we appreciate you for that.

Betcoin Jessica: Had a little time to kill, enjoyed it, good luck guys. See you in here a little later.

Betcoin Jessica: Bye, also the mitigation of the 6 hour attack has been removed so please let support know if anything slows.

ungod: do you guys legitimately believe that bovada ditched betsoft at the same time the buzz was going on about the casinolistings.com study and jasonort nonpayment of jackpot? you really believe the 2 events werent related?  or do you just want really bad for us the players to believe that?

(One minute later)

Betcoin Jessica: Big, we never learn all we need to know about someone. For us it's lifelong learning, but we understand your point.  It's a part of it ungod, but there is much more to it. Always look deeper ungod, you are a smart guy.

Betcoin Jessica: Go deeper than the surface, deep deep deep.

ungod: a part of it is enough jessica the provider is corrupt

Betcoin Jessica: Good luck guys, enjoyed the convo and talk soon.

BigThangz: UG did twitchy hire for part time work or what

Betcoin Jessica: Big, ungod always brings up good points, we agree with many but he never sees or examines the other side.

ungod: so betcoin stands firmly behind betsoft regardless of the 3rd party independent study that caught them with their pants down blatantly rigging slot jackpots for 9 months?

Betcoin Jessica: Anyways, I must go.

[jasonort]

He goes ranting everywhere about how he got scammed,  then suddenly goes annoyingly silent or post off the point replies. With due respek to the people reading this, I must say fuck u jason

Thank you for the respek.  You're an idiot.  I've said all that I am allowed to say.

[RichGang]

He goes ranting everywhere about how he got scammed,  then suddenly goes annoyingly silent or post off the point replies. With due respek to the people reading this, I must say fuck u jason

Thank you for the respek.  You're an idiot.  I've said all that I am allowed to say.

What a stanking pussy. Idiots like u make those bastards pullup more scams confidently

[Zepher]

He goes ranting everywhere about how he got scammed,  then suddenly goes annoyingly silent or post off the point replies. With due respek to the people reading this, I must say fuck u jason

Thank you for the respek.  You're an idiot.  I've said all that I am allowed to say.

Well it seems like you're content with what you received, which obviously came attached to a NDA. It was becoming clear you weren't going to get the jackpot that you were entitled to, and you've taken whatever amount you could get your hands on. In one respect, I don't blame you. On the other hand, it sucks that they got away with this so easily.

[mentaken]

He goes ranting everywhere about how he got scammed,  then suddenly goes annoyingly silent or post off the point replies. With due respek to the people reading this, I must say fuck u jason

Thank you for the respek.  You're an idiot.  I've said all that I am allowed to say.

Well it seems like you're content with what you received, which obviously came attached to a NDA. It was becoming clear you weren't going to get the jackpot that you were entitled to, and you've taken whatever amount you could get your hands on. In one respect, I don't blame you. On the other hand, it sucks that they got away with this so easily.

Ok that was a settlement between jasonort and Betsoft. So Betsoft admits they were wrong. Why does betcoin.ag still supports Betsoft?

[james.lent]

He goes ranting everywhere about how he got scammed,  then suddenly goes annoyingly silent or post off the point replies. With due respek to the people reading this, I must say fuck u jason

Thank you for the respek.  You're an idiot.  I've said all that I am allowed to say.

Well it seems like you're content with what you received, which obviously came attached to a NDA. It was becoming clear you weren't going to get the jackpot that you were entitled to, and you've taken whatever amount you could get your hands on. In one respect, I don't blame you. On the other hand, it sucks that they got away with this so easily.

Ok that was a settlement between jasonort and Betsoft. So Betsoft admits they were wrong. Why does betcoin.ag still supports Betsoft?

Thats because without betsoft, they wont have any other casino games left.

[joksim299]

He goes ranting everywhere about how he got scammed,  then suddenly goes annoyingly silent or post off the point replies. With due respek to the people reading this, I must say fuck u jason

Thank you for the respek.  You're an idiot.  I've said all that I am allowed to say.

Well it seems like you're content with what you received, which obviously came attached to a NDA. It was becoming clear you weren't going to get the jackpot that you were entitled to, and you've taken whatever amount you could get your hands on. In one respect, I don't blame you. On the other hand, it sucks that they got away with this so easily.

Ok that was a settlement between jasonort and Betsoft. So Betsoft admits they were wrong. Why does betcoin.ag still supports Betsoft?

Thats because without betsoft, they wont have any other casino games left.

Or they share not winnable money from the 'jackpot' pool.

[Dyatrev]

He goes ranting everywhere about how he got scammed,  then suddenly goes annoyingly silent or post off the point replies. With due respek to the people reading this, I must say fuck u jason

Thank you for the respek.  You're an idiot.  I've said all that I am allowed to say.

Well it seems like you're content with what you received, which obviously came attached to a NDA. It was becoming clear you weren't going to get the jackpot that you were entitled to, and you've taken whatever amount you could get your hands on. In one respect, I don't blame you. On the other hand, it sucks that they got away with this so easily.

Ok that was a settlement between jasonort and Betsoft. So Betsoft admits they were wrong. Why does betcoin.ag still supports Betsoft?

Thats because without betsoft, they wont have any other casino games left.

Or they share not winnable money from the 'jackpot' pool.

ofc they are otherwise who will continue to use scamming programs

[actmyname]

Betcoin Jessica stopped by chat earlier I see.  Grabbed the archive and edited it down to relevant comments and reversed the bottom to top reading order.  Entire unedited version here:
https://archive.is/pSjUZ

[chatlog]-snip-[/chatlog]

Seems like all Betcoin can do is reply with ignorance and pretending like they're above everything, acting as if nobody knows what's going on (or that they're trolls and spammers deliberately trying to slander their name).

Even as ungod brings up decisive evidence, Betcoin Jessica tries their best to try and pretend like the correlation is absent. The only thing that's stark is their conscience. The continuance of this corruption is unacceptable.

Or they share not winnable money from the 'jackpot' pool.

I guess Betcoin wants to try and wrassle as much money as they can out of their players before they all leave, instead of trying to create a fair platform to keep them there.

[Lutpin]

Meanwhile, Betcoin.AG acknowledges that there indeed is a contract binding jasonort.
Like we didn't all already suspect that.

A business operating within morally acceptable borders doesn't push it's customers into signing some wicked NDA (I suspect that's what happened with jason).

Lutpin, the agreement is with the player and the software provider.

They kow about that shitty thing. They didn't write "there is no nda." or "we don't know about any nda.",
they answered "the agreement is with [...] the software provider."
Unbelievable how a casino (/affiliate) could stand by and watch their software provider compeling their (paying) customers into signing some NDA to shut them up.

[TwitchySeal]

Meanwhile, Betcoin.AG acknowledges that there indeed is a contract binding jasonort.
Like we didn't all already suspect that.

A business operating within morally acceptable borders doesn't push it's customers into signing some wicked NDA (I suspect that's what happened with jason).

Lutpin, the agreement is with the player and the software provider.

They kow about that shitty thing. They didn't write "there is no nda." or "we don't know about any nda.",
they answered "the agreement is with [...] the software provider."
Unbelievable how a casino (/affiliate) could stand by and watch their software provider compeling their (paying) customers into signing some NDA to shut them up.

I don't think they realized thepogg.com has their communication with Jason published:  http://thepogg.com/complaint/betcoin-ag-progressive-jackpot-was-not-paid-for-winning-spin/

BetSOFT told ThePogg that BetCOIN would be handling the issue.
BetSOFT did not respond to Jasons attempts to communicate.
An offer was made by someone from BetCOIN who would not give a real name and claimed to have spoken with BetSOFT CEO.

Betcoin has gone Full-Delusional!! (or the people behind betcoin are also behind betsoft)

It was a dispute between the player and Betsoft.  Everyone knows that including the player. Had we not got involved, the player would have got nothing from Betsoft.  The irony to the negative trust is the player that was effected by Lutpin's comment regarding negative trust has more trust for Betcoin.ag than ever before.  

We have now hundreds of daily players for which we are very thankful and have numerous new signups everyday because fortunately people are smart enough to try our service and experience it themselves and once they do, they quickly realize that Betcoin is a great place to play.  We have come a long way and have a long way to go and we appreciate everyone's involvement.  

[Dyatrev]

jason you did wrong thing you shouldnt just agree small part of your fairly winnings noone could shut you so easily on that scam but whatever

[TwitchySeal]

In 2010 it was proven that Absolute Poker had a rigged Keno game developed by Betsoft. 

Watch this 5 minute video or check out this thread for all the evidence.


Here is the letter that Absolute sent affected players:

Dear XXXX,

As a valued customer and Keno player at our site, we want to update you on an issue we were made aware of that suggested the Keno game we offered to players was operating in a non-random way.

Our early analysis of this claim stated that there was a flaw specific to the game logic in ‘ten play’ only on Traditional Keno and no confirmed issue with the Random Number Generator (RNG). Upon notice of the flaw, we contacted our third party software provider of Keno, Betsoft Gaming (BSG) for a more comprehensive investigation and subsequently removed all Keno games from our site until the investigation was complete and all corrective actions taken.

Our joint investigations with BSG confirmed that while the RNG for Keno was functioning properly, it was selecting from a pre-existing data set that was not as extensive as it should have been. The results were in turn random, but from a limited data set rather than from the full data set from which RNG is expected to choose.

While the issue stemmed from our third party software provider, we accept responsibility for offering our players a Keno game that had the described issue. Therefore refunds have been issued to all Keno players of ‘five Play’, ’ten Play’ and all Traditional Keno during the period those games were offered . Any net loss you experienced while playing Keno with us, no matter how small has been credited to your account.

We wish to offer our sincere apologies for any confusion or frustration this issue may have caused you, and we thank you for your patience while we have endeavored to correct this situation. We also want to restate our commitment to providing a safe, secure and fair gaming environment for our players.

If you have any questions about your refund, please write to us at casinosupport@absolutepoker.com

Thank you for your understanding, support and continued confidence in our game offerings.

The Absolute Poker Team

Black Friday happened within 2 weeks of this letter. 

Players with a balance on Absolute or Ultimate Poker at the time were never paid.

[TwitchySeal]

-snip-
Who is your parent company?
-snip-

-snip-
Private held company that owns operates and licenses software and services to many online casinos.
-snip-

[RichGang]

Still curious to know how much he was paid. Since he came amd posted it here, he should as well give details

[RichGang]

Still curious to know how much he was paid. Since he came amd posted it here, he should as well give details

Do you understand what NDA means? If not, google it.

He never talk of signing any nda

[Lutpin]

He never talk of signing any nda

It's fairly obvious there is one. Look:

Thank you for the respek. You're an idiot. I've said all that I am allowed to say.

Read between the lines.

A business operating within morally acceptable borders doesn't push it's customers into signing some wicked NDA (I suspect that's what happened with jason).

Lutpin, the agreement is with the player and the software provider.

Ask betcoin.ag

and there you got it.

[TwitchySeal]

It's been four days since Jason made this post on Betcoin and has received no response.

https://www.betcoin.ag/setting-record-straight

I would like to set the record straight on how I feel I was treated by Betcoin.ag and their handling of my dispute with BetSoft. My words have been twisted and used by both sides in this argument (Betcoin Haters vs. Betcoin Shills) on forums all over the internet. I have had some time to reflect back on this whole ordeal and would like to share my perspective. Although I doubt that this will happen I will ask that neither side post my comments to the forums as evidence that Betcoin is good or Betcoin is bad. This is only for the players that play at this site and want to know the facts. I will comment here on Betcoin only. I am contractually bound not to comment in regards to BetSoft.

First I would like to say that overall I have no bad feelings towards Betcoin. I feel that although they did not handle the situation exactly the way I would have wanted them to, they did help me to reach a settlement with BetSoft. Without their help this may not have happened. Andrew and staff spent many hours trying to resolve this situation, and worked very hard for me. What happened was out of their control, and not their fault, but they should have perhaps handled things differently. Prior to this incident I would have given Betcoin an A+. They treated me well, and I felt like I was a valued VIP player. Afterwards I would give them a B+. I am still treated well, and I still feel that they value my business. The reason for this change can be summed up in one statement: Lack of Transparency. Although I feel that Betcoin was trying to help me behind the scenes, the problem was that it was not communicated and it was done behind the scenes and the details of what was happening were not shared with me. This is where I think that Betcoin should have done better. An honest open line of communication would have made all of the difference. I still have some questions which I would welcome Betcoin to answer for all of us so that we might understand better the relationship between the casino and their software vendors:

1. Explain the relationship between Betcoin & Software Vendor. When a player places a wager on a game exactly how does it work? Explain the chain of custody of the wager and who is responsible for paying the player for a win or taking the money from a loss. Who holds the funds for a progressive jackpot? What recourse does a player have if they feel that they have been wrongly paid?

2. Why does Betcoin censor or delete forum posts? As I said transparency is very important to me as a player. It is the foundation of trust. At the beginning of this dispute I tried to bring this vigorously to the public because I felt I had been wronged. I had forum posts and comments removed by the moderators and staff. Why? My opinion on this is that Betcoin does not want to bite the hand that feeds them (The software vendors). If they allow posts that are negative towards the vendors it could jeopardize their business dealings with them. I understand this, but Betcoin needs to understand that without the players that play here there is no business. The customer should come first, not the vendor. Unless it is outright offensive allowing the players to publicly state their opinions is important. Freedom of speech is very important to me. Allowing dissenting viewpoints and difference of opinion need to be protected. Having my speech censored made me feel as though the profits were more important than the player. This is where I feel that Betcoin dropped the ball. Do the vendors monitor your forums? If so what does that communication look like? Do they ask you to take down negative postings against them?

3. Although I cannot comment on the issue of my spin, what is your opinion? Should the spin as it occurred have won the jackpot? I want only a one word answer. Yes or No. No disclaimers. One word only. It is your opinion and not legally binding.

I know that these are tough questions. But answer them and you will be better for it. Be transparent and build trust with your players by answering them. It will only help your business, not hurt it. I do not post this to attack you. In fact I continue to play here, although I have taken a recent hiatus. I really enjoy the site. You have always treated me well, and hope to continue our relationship. Answer these questions and your grade may improve back to an A+.

On a separate and more festive note I would like to thank all of the players on this site who had my back. Specifically ungod & he who must not be named (Twitchy). They fought for me, not because they know me or have any stake in what happened to me, but because they understand that players need to be treated fairly. Because it could have been them or any one of the players on this site that this happened to. As a thank you Betcoin has debited 200mBTC from my account which I have previously announced will be used to fund a poker tourney. Andrew had committed to matching it with 300mBTC. I look forward to sharing this with all of you, and more than likely watching from the sidelines (I'm sure I will be knocked out early as I am not a very good poker player). Thank you to Andrew and the staff at Betcoin for allowing me to do this. I look forward to seeing you all on the felt.

jasonort

P.S. Could you please add some additional slot gaming providers? I am somewhat limited by the games I am willing to play currently

[CroSany]

I hate in betcoin.ag web site bitcoin crpyptocurrency casino that their site have many errors like example i go to exitbfrom puffinbrowser when i am in poker and then i cant login normal about 10 minutes anf also sometimes somebodx go all in but oher user was also click all in but he didnt bet all money just one part.Also i sae that lower hand was won pot but i was need to win.

[TwitchySeal]

The following is from Betcoins "JasonOrt Case Resolution" on July 6th.

...Throughout this entire process jasonort can attest to the fact that the Betcoin.ag staff made ourselves available nearly 24/7 to answer every question and provide proper updates when available as we would have done for all of our great players. jasonort was also clear to never blame Betcoin.ag for this issue as this was clearly a software issue and would have happened on any other online casino.

Throughout this entire circumstance jasonort continued to play at Betcoin.ag and so did many new and old Betcoin.ag players. We are very thankful for that. We will always do the right thing at Betcoin.ag for our great players...

It's now been 6 days since JasonOrts Set the Record Straight and ask Betcoin 3 questions post.

Instead of responding to JasonOrt, Betcoin is deleting posts to keep Jasons thread from appearing on the "recent activity".  

From player chat: (I edited it down, archived complete version: https://archive.is/jrhWQ )




Another recently deleted explained why a new player decided to make the following post about me (none of it is true) Twitchyseal Offered Me Money on Instagram to Lie About Betcoin



The entire archived post can be found here (it's long): https://gyazo.com/caf33a91785fc3570d7c736db3e8c9c8

[TwitchySeal]

Yesterday, shortly after the following exchange in chat:



Cjmoles left me the following negative feedback (lies obviously):



It seems he wasn't rewarded as generously as ajundftd, just a step 3 (25mbtc) ticket

[CL-Ed]

Hi folks. Thanks to Twitchyseal I was made aware of Betcoin's funny article about us (CasinoListings.com) that they wrote in an attempt to deflect from the bad publicity that their and Betsoft's actions have caused. After reading that and looking around their site I found this very interesting article that they published on October 9, 2014:

Book of Ra Deluxe Slot & 30 New Slots Added to BetcoinCasino.com Lineup

BetcoinCasino.com is excited to announced the inclusion of 31 new slots into the slot lineup at BetcoinCasino.com taking our total number of games available to over 200. The new games are headlined by one of the worlds most popular slots Book of Ra Deluxe.

The new games also include:

Sizzling Hot deluxe, Dolphin's Pearl Deluxe, Lucky Lady's Charm Deluxe, Lord of the Ocean Deluxe, Just Jewels Deluxe, Book of Ra, Columbus Deluxe, Dolphin Treasure, Queen of the Nile, Beetle Mania Deluxe, Dolphin's Pearl, 50 Dragons, Queen of the Nile II, Xtra Hot, 50 Lions, Power Stars, Geisha, Pelican Pete, Sun and Moon, Tiki Torch, Double Happiness, Lucky Count, Wild Panda, Miss Kitty

The new games are not a part of the bonus program for now, and are available for play by doing a transfer from your account. Simply, click on a game and then click Money Transfer. Transfer the specified funds and then you can play.

We are working to bring the most complete casino experience to you and appreciate any questions, suggestions and concerns that you may have.

But those games are not there anymore right? Right, because they were fakes. They were pirated games running on a server under the control of the pirates. Novomatic do not license their games to unregulated casinos, and they are currently not available anywhere for legitimate play in Bitcoin. Let me be clear - anywhere that you find a Novomatic game that is playable in BTC or mBTC, the game is a fake and you are being cheated.

If you ever played these games at Betcoin, you were cheated. If so you should be contacting the casino and demanding a refund for any losses incurred on them. I won't hold my breath waiting for them to give it to you.

[marlais]

But those games are not there anymore right? Right, because they were fakes. They were pirated games running on a server under the control of the pirates. Novomatic do not license their games to unregulated casinos, and they are currently not available anywhere for legitimate play in Bitcoin. Let me be clear - anywhere that you find a Novomatic game that is playable in BTC or mBTC, the game is a fake and you are being cheated.

If you ever played these games at Betcoin, you were cheated. If so you should be contacting the casino and demanding a refund for any losses incurred on them. I won't hold my breath waiting for them to give it to you.

You might consider posting this information in the main Betcoin.ag thread as well. This thread is more about the jasonort incident and Betsoft, and your post will probably be overlooked by most people looking for Betcoin information. Here is a link to the main thread:

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=386266

[TwitchySeal]

Anyone following the Betcoin issues should also check their sig campaign thread: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1236667.msg15709511;topicseen#msg15709511

its the only place betcoin has been willing to respond, so its kind of turned into the new home for the discussion.

(I know, complicated)

[jikin]

Contes btcjack in betcoin.ag winners also no one can make withdrawals https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1563169.0

[TwitchySeal]

[jasonort]

https://i.gyazo.com/79dd01f845582372e2e85f8fa203857f.png

Betcoin.ag has just erased my entire post on their forums.  I gave them every opportunity to explain their side of this.  I did not throw them under the bus.  I was civil.  And now they erase my post and just expect me to disappear?  Game on.

[FruitsBasket]

Betcoin.ag has just erased my entire post on their forums.  I gave them every opportunity to explain their side of this.  I did not throw them under the bus.  I was civil.  And now they erase my post and just expect me to disappear?  Game on.

I think you should perform action against them, you should fight them into court since the amount u have won is alot and should no matter what be paid to you. Betcoin.ag is a scam company, they only pay small winnings.

[ajareselde]

Betcoin.ag has just erased my entire post on their forums.  I gave them every opportunity to explain their side of this.  I did not throw them under the bus.  I was civil.  And now they erase my post and just expect me to disappear?  Game on.

I don't get one thing jason; If you believe you are wronged, why don't you start legal action against them ? Instead you cry around forums which doesn't help you at all.

And what happened to this :

I am pleased to say that this matter has been resolved to my satisfaction by all parties involved. Responsibility has been taken by Betcoin.ag for lack of clarification from their customer support, Betsoft has acknowledged that the wording on the pay table may have been cause for misunderstanding with respect to jackpot eligibility. Both parties have been very helpful and cooperative in resolving this and made the necessary adjustments.

You said that you are pleased with outcome, what now ? You want more money ? That's close to extortion.

All the bullshit aside, stop acting like a child and either sue them, or move on. It's that simple.

[RazzleDazzle]

https://i.gyazo.com/79dd01f845582372e2e85f8fa203857f.png

Betcoin.ag has just erased my entire post on their forums.  I gave them every opportunity to explain their side of this.  I did not throw them under the bus.  I was civil.  And now they erase my post and just expect me to disappear?  Game on.

I don't get one thing jason; If you believe you are wronged, why don't you start legal action against them ? Instead you cry around forums which doesn't help you at all.

And what happened to this :

I am pleased to say that this matter has been resolved to my satisfaction by all parties involved. Responsibility has been taken by Betcoin.ag for lack of clarification from their customer support, Betsoft has acknowledged that the wording on the pay table may have been cause for misunderstanding with respect to jackpot eligibility. Both parties have been very helpful and cooperative in resolving this and made the necessary adjustments.

You said that you are pleased with outcome, what now ? You want more money ? That's close to extortion.

All the bullshit aside, stop acting like a child and either sue them, or move on. It's that simple.

LOL, I'm sure you'd follow your own line of reasoning if you were the one that got screwed for hundreds of thousands of dollars.  It's pretty obvious from the thread that Betcoin/Betsoft tried to keep him quiet by giving him part of his winnings but not the entire thing.  It's pretty obvious he took the deal because it was either that or 0.  It's pretty obvious that he just wanted Betcoin to come out and publicly say that they weren't gonna let this sort of stuff happen again to one of their players.  It's pretty obvious that Betcoint deleted his posts and just tried to sweep everything under the rug.  Duh.

LOL at suing them.  Yup, just file an action in an US court, it's that easy.  Wait no...you have to serve them in whatever random island they operate out of, hire firms with an expertise in HK law (because for some odd reason Betcoin has that as their choice of law, despite online gambling being outright illegal in HK), and fund a lengthly lawsuit.  Yea, that seems very doable. 

Maybe next time, shill more tactfully or think before typing.

[ajareselde]

LOL, I'm sure you'd follow your own line of reasoning if you were the one that got screwed for hundreds of thousands of dollars.  It's pretty obvious from the thread that Betcoin/Betsoft tried to keep him quiet by giving him part of his winnings but not the entire thing.  It's pretty obvious he took the deal because it was either that or 0.  It's pretty obvious that he just wanted Betcoin to come out and publicly say that they weren't gonna let this sort of stuff happen again to one of their players.  It's pretty obvious that Betcoint deleted his posts and just tried to sweep everything under the rug.  Duh.

LOL at suing them.  Yup, just file an action in an US court, it's that easy.  Wait no...you have to serve them in whatever random island they operate out of, hire firms with an expertise in HK law (because for some odd reason Betcoin has that as their choice of law, despite online gambling being outright illegal in HK), and fund a lengthly lawsuit.  Yea, that seems very doable. 

Maybe next time, shill more tactfully or think before typing.

Well i certainly wouldn't go around forums and whine about how i think someone did me wrong, and i most certainly wouldnt say :

I am pleased to say that this matter has been resolved to my satisfaction by all parties involved. Responsibility has been taken by Betcoin.ag for lack of clarification from their customer support, Betsoft has acknowledged that the wording on the pay table may have been cause for misunderstanding with respect to jackpot eligibility. Both parties have been very helpful and cooperative in resolving this and made the necessary adjustments.

and then continue asking for more money after settlement, and after saying all that.

I'm not a shill behind alt account, you are. I'm just annoyed that bunch of people are abusing this case to attack competition.

[TwitchySeal]

LOL, I'm sure you'd follow your own line of reasoning if you were the one that got screwed for hundreds of thousands of dollars.  It's pretty obvious from the thread that Betcoin/Betsoft tried to keep him quiet by giving him part of his winnings but not the entire thing.  It's pretty obvious he took the deal because it was either that or 0.  It's pretty obvious that he just wanted Betcoin to come out and publicly say that they weren't gonna let this sort of stuff happen again to one of their players.  It's pretty obvious that Betcoint deleted his posts and just tried to sweep everything under the rug.  Duh.

LOL at suing them.  Yup, just file an action in an US court, it's that easy.  Wait no...you have to serve them in whatever random island they operate out of, hire firms with an expertise in HK law (because for some odd reason Betcoin has that as their choice of law, despite online gambling being outright illegal in HK), and fund a lengthly lawsuit.  Yea, that seems very doable.  

Maybe next time, shill more tactfully or think before typing.

Well i certainly wouldn't go around forums and whine about how i think someone did me wrong, and i most certainly wouldnt say :

I am pleased to say that this matter has been resolved to my satisfaction by all parties involved. Responsibility has been taken by Betcoin.ag for lack of clarification from their customer support, Betsoft has acknowledged that the wording on the pay table may have been cause for misunderstanding with respect to jackpot eligibility. Both parties have been very helpful and cooperative in resolving this and made the necessary adjustments.

and then continue asking for more money after settlement, and after saying all that.

I'm not a shill behind alt account, you are. I'm just annoyed that bunch of people are abusing this case to attack competition.

Well I certainly wouldn't go around promoting a scummy site like Betcoin.  Even if they paid me.   I guess you would though huh.

[marlais]

Well i certainly wouldn't go around forums and whine about how i think someone did me wrong, and i most certainly wouldnt say :

I am pleased to say that this matter has been resolved to my satisfaction by all parties involved. Responsibility has been taken by Betcoin.ag for lack of clarification from their customer support, Betsoft has acknowledged that the wording on the pay table may have been cause for misunderstanding with respect to jackpot eligibility. Both parties have been very helpful and cooperative in resolving this and made the necessary adjustments.

and then continue asking for more money after settlement, and after saying all that.

I'm not a shill behind alt account, you are. I'm just annoyed that bunch of people are abusing this case to attack competition.

I haven't seen any post by jasonort asking for more money after the settlement, although it's certainly possible that I missed it because Betcoin has been deleting his posts. The one big post that I saw was this one:

https://www.betcoin.ag/setting-record-straight

asking that people not quote him in forums as proof that Betcoin is good or bad (like what you just did), and asking Betcoin to answer some legitimate questions about the chain of custody of wagers, why they are deleting posts, and more generally asking for greater transparency. From the "P.S." portion, it sounds like he's not comfortable playing slots on Betcoin until some changes are made.

As razzle pointed out, he doesn't have a legal leg to stand on in this situation, so it would be a costly waste of time to retain a lawyer and try to fight it in the courts. Sounds like he learned an expensive lesson. His only recourse at this point is to make what happened public knowledge on forums or wherever he can think of (within the terms of his settlement, of course) and attempt to get some better explanations so it doesn't happen to him or anyone else again, either because they've fixed the issue or because people will know which games/sites to avoid. Who can blame him?

[Zepher]

Betcoin.ag has just erased my entire post on their forums.  I gave them every opportunity to explain their side of this.  I did not throw them under the bus.  I was civil.  And now they erase my post and just expect me to disappear?  Game on.

This should be interesting..

*gets popcorn ready*

[ajareselde]

Well i certainly wouldn't go around forums and whine about how i think someone did me wrong, and i most certainly wouldnt say :

I am pleased to say that this matter has been resolved to my satisfaction by all parties involved. Responsibility has been taken by Betcoin.ag for lack of clarification from their customer support, Betsoft has acknowledged that the wording on the pay table may have been cause for misunderstanding with respect to jackpot eligibility. Both parties have been very helpful and cooperative in resolving this and made the necessary adjustments.

and then continue asking for more money after settlement, and after saying all that.

I'm not a shill behind alt account, you are. I'm just annoyed that bunch of people are abusing this case to attack competition.

I haven't seen any post by jasonort asking for more money after the settlement, although it's certainly possible that I missed it because Betcoin has been deleting his posts. The one big post that I saw was this one:

https://www.betcoin.ag/setting-record-straight

asking that people not quote him in forums as proof that Betcoin is good or bad (like what you just did), and asking Betcoin to answer some legitimate questions about the chain of custody of wagers, why they are deleting posts, and more generally asking for greater transparency. From the "P.S." portion, it sounds like he's not comfortable playing slots on Betcoin until some changes are made.

As razzle pointed out, he doesn't have a legal leg to stand on in this situation, so it would be a costly waste of time to retain a lawyer and try to fight it in the courts. Sounds like he learned an expensive lesson. His only recourse at this point is to make what happened public knowledge on forums or wherever he can think of (within the terms of his settlement, of course) and attempt to get some better explanations so it doesn't happen to him or anyone else again, either because they've fixed the issue or because people will know which games/sites to avoid. Who can blame him?

He is obviously asking for more money, that's for sure.

That aside, my question remains ; if he (Jason) is legally correct, why doesn't he sue betcoin, or betsoft, or whoever the hell thinks costed him that jackpot amount ?
And don't talk about costs please, because anyone can pay for lawyer and lawsuit knowing that he will win it. But that's just the point - he can't win because he already settled the case.

And even after all logic goes away, i still can understand Jason, but i can't understand Witch hunters claiming to talk in Jason's best interest, when all they do is
clearly attack betcoin.ag specific , even tho there are tons of sites using Betsoft.  Now that's something you don't do unless you have personal interest in site being attacked.

Betcoin.ag could and should have done things differently in my opinion, but they are far away from scam many claim them to be. If you think otherwise, and/or feel wronged
by them; by all means take legal action.

All this whining and flaming is getting old.

[TwitchySeal]

He is absolutely not asking for more money. wtf is wrong with you?

do I really need to explain how ridiculous you're being by implying Jason had an option to sue anyone?

[ajareselde]

He is absolutely not asking for more money. wtf is wrong with you?

I guess i was molested as a child...      I'm sorry but that question above, coming from you tilted my brain for a sec.
If you really think he is not, then you are more delusional than anyone here, and there are a lot of candidates.

[TwitchySeal]

He is absolutely not asking for more money. wtf is wrong with you?

I guess i was molested as a child...      I'm sorry but that question above, coming from you tilted my brain for a sec.
If you really think he is not, then you are more delusional than anyone here, and there are a lot of candidates.

wtf? 

[marlais]

He is obviously asking for more money, that's for sure.

That aside, my question remains ; if he (Jason) is legally correct, why doesn't he sue betcoin, or betsoft, or whoever the hell thinks costed him that jackpot amount ?
And don't talk about costs please, because anyone can pay for lawyer and lawsuit knowing that he will win it. But that's just the point - he can't win because he already settled the case.

And even after all logic goes away, i still can understand Jason, but i can't understand Witch hunters claiming to talk in Jason's best interest, when all they do is
clearly attack betcoin.ag specific , even tho there are tons of sites using Betsoft.  Now that's something you don't do unless you have personal interest in site being attacked.

Betcoin.ag could and should have done things differently in my opinion, but they are far away from scam many claim them to be. If you think otherwise, and/or feel wronged
by them; by all means take legal action.

All this whining and flaming is getting old.

Do you need it spelled out for you? OK, let's assume that he hires a lawyer. Where is that lawyer going to file a case? If they file it in a U.S. court, it will be immediately thrown out because overseas companies are not within their jurisdiction. So now he needs to find out where the laws do apply to Betcoin. According to their terms of service, it appears they're operating under the laws of Hong Kong or possibly Curacao. So now he hires a lawyer in Hong Kong to file a court case there. It's going to get thrown out, or maybe he'll get arrested, because he's just admitted to online gambling in Hong Kong, which is strictly illegal. OK, let's find a lawyer in Curacao, because maybe that's where they have an e-gaming license. The reason that businesses get e-gaming licenses in Curacao is because they don't care if your company is reputable or not and won't prosecute you as long as you give them money for a license. Now what?

If he had been playing in a B&M casino in Las Vegas, he would have some legal avenues to pursue, but he wasn't. Obviously, the issue with playing on overseas casinos like Betcoin with sketchy or no licensing is that if something like this happens, you have no legal recourse, as demonstrated in jasonort's situation.

[ajareselde]

Do you need it spelled out for you? OK, let's assume that he hires a lawyer. Where is that lawyer going to file a case? If they file it in a U.S. court, it will be immediately thrown out because overseas companies are not within their jurisdiction. So now he needs to find out where the laws do apply to Betcoin. According to their terms of service, it appears they're operating under the laws of Hong Kong or possibly Curacao. So now he hires a lawyer in Hong Kong to file a court case there. It's going to get thrown out, or maybe he'll get arrested, because he's just admitted to online gambling in Hong Kong, which is strictly illegal. OK, let's find a lawyer in Curacao, because maybe that's where they have an e-gaming license. The reason that businesses get e-gaming licenses in Curacao is because they don't care if your company is reputable or not and won't prosecute you as long as you give them money for a license. Now what?

If he had been playing in a B&M casino in Las Vegas, he would have some legal avenues to pursue, but he wasn't. Obviously, the issue with playing on overseas casinos like Betcoin with sketchy or no licensing is that if something like this happens, you have no legal recourse, as demonstrated in jasonort's situation.

I'm not going to explain the way i would do it, but if you think about it for a while, you will see that there is much easier way to prosecute someone.
Any decent lawyer will know what to do. Or do you think whole world is doing whatever the hell they want ?!

In regards to licencing, most of casinos here are without a licence (case we will explore soon enough)

[marlais]

I'm not going to explain the way i would do it, but if you think about it for a while, you will see that there is much easier way to prosecute someone.
Any decent lawyer will know what to do. Or do you think whole world is doing whatever the hell they want ?!

In regards to licencing, most of casinos here are without a licence (case we will explore soon enough)

If you have some sort of cogent argument to put forth, I'd love to hear it. I think you're bluffing, though.

[cjmoles]

If the Terms and Conditions of the contract were signed in the United States then there can be a jurisdictional claim submitted in United States.  The contract was signed in the United States; therefore, a jurisdictional claim can be submitted within the United States.

NetRange:       173.245.48.0 - 173.245.63.255
CIDR:           173.245.48.0/20
NetName:        CLOUDFLARENET
NetHandle:      NET-173-245-48-0-1
Parent:         NET173 (NET-173-0-0-0-0)
NetType:        Direct Assignment
OriginAS:       AS13335
Organization:   CloudFlare, Inc. (CLOUD14)
RegDate:        2010-12-28
Updated:        2012-03-02
Comment:        http://www.cloudflare.com/
Ref:            https://whois.arin.net/rest/net/NET-173-245-48-0-1



OrgName:        CloudFlare, Inc.
OrgId:          CLOUD14
Address:        101 Townsend Street
City:           San Francisco                                  <-----(San Francisco, CA is in the United States)
StateProv:      CA
PostalCode:     94107
Country:        US
RegDate:        2010-07-09
Updated:        2015-10-08
Comment:        http://www.cloudflare.com/
Ref:            https://whois.arin.net/rest/org/CLOUD14


Now, whether or not locus standi could be demonstrated is another matter.  So, an out of court settlement was in the best interest of both parties.  At the heart of the matter was whether or not a "free spin" could be considered a "maximum risk wager."  Some of the questions that would have been asked are:  "Does it state anywhere that only maximum wager spins qualify for the jackpot?" "Does a free spin contribute to the jackpot?"  Or, "What was the intent behind the coding?"  "Is the 'drop jackpot' method/function called on a zero risk spin?"  Both parties could have made a case because the matter was far from cut and dry, so a settlement was negotiated.

What's important now is that the integrity of the settlement be maintained.  Those who are urging for and facilitating disclosure do not have jasonort's best interest in mind because he could be taken to court and forced to return the sum of the settlement.

Now, I'm not justifying a case for either side because both sides had valid claims; however, I do tend to be on the side of jasonort because the terms of the jackpot should have been more clearly stated to avoid this type of incident....At this point, the matter has been resolved by mediation as opposed to arbitration or litigation so jasonort will be held to those terms and we should stand behind him on this matter so as not to jeopardize his position.  

[marlais]

If the Terms and Conditions of the contract were signed in the United States then there can be a jurisdictional claim submitted in United States.  The contract was signed in the United States; therefore, a jurisdictional claim can be submitted within the United States.

NetRange:       173.245.48.0 - 173.245.63.255
CIDR:           173.245.48.0/20
NetName:        CLOUDFLARENET
NetHandle:      NET-173-245-48-0-1
Parent:         NET173 (NET-173-0-0-0-0)
NetType:        Direct Assignment
OriginAS:       AS13335
Organization:   CloudFlare, Inc. (CLOUD14)
RegDate:        2010-12-28
Updated:        2012-03-02
Comment:        http://www.cloudflare.com/
Ref:            https://whois.arin.net/rest/net/NET-173-245-48-0-1

If this was an issue arising from the negligence of CloudFlare, which is their anti-DDoS protection, you might have a case. However, going after CloudFlare is unlikely to get you very far. The only leverage they have over Betcoin is whether or not they choose to license their service to them, and I'm sure that if they decided to not work with Betcoin anymore, Betcoin would just use one of their competitors and continue business as usual. That would be like suing the bouncers at a nightclub if the nightclub didn't give you correct change.

[cjmoles]

If the Terms and Conditions of the contract were signed in the United States then there can be a jurisdictional claim submitted in United States.  The contract was signed in the United States; therefore, a jurisdictional claim can be submitted within the United States.

NetRange:       173.245.48.0 - 173.245.63.255
CIDR:           173.245.48.0/20
NetName:        CLOUDFLARENET
NetHandle:      NET-173-245-48-0-1
Parent:         NET173 (NET-173-0-0-0-0)
NetType:        Direct Assignment
OriginAS:       AS13335
Organization:   CloudFlare, Inc. (CLOUD14)
RegDate:        2010-12-28
Updated:        2012-03-02
Comment:        http://www.cloudflare.com/
Ref:            https://whois.arin.net/rest/net/NET-173-245-48-0-1

If this was an issue arising from the negligence of CloudFlare, which is their anti-DDoS protection, you might have a case. However, going after CloudFlare is unlikely to get you very far. The only leverage they have over Betcoin is whether or not they choose to license their service to them, and I'm sure that if they decided to not work with Betcoin anymore, Betcoin would just use one of their competitors and continue business as usual. That would be like suing the bouncers at a nightclub if the nightclub didn't give you correct change.

No, the question becomes in what jurisdiction was the server located at the time the contract was signed....negligence has nothing to do with it.  And, Betcoin was the mediator in this action between jasonort and Betsoft which complicates the matter to another degree which further justifies the decision to negotiate a settlement rather then litigate the action.

[TwitchySeal]

Who owns betcoin, who owns betsoft? What if they are the same person /people? 

[marlais]

No, the question becomes in what jurisdiction was the server located at the time the contract was signed....negligence has nothing to do with it.  And, Betcoin was the mediator in this action between jasonort and Betsoft which complicates the matter to another degree which further justifies the decision to negotiate a settlement rather then litigate the action.

CloudFlare isn't Betcoin's server. They intercept incoming traffic and then let it through to Betcoin's server or don't if they think it represents a threat. Besides, CloudFlare has wisely written a loophole into their TOS:

SECTION 12: INDEMNITY

You agree to indemnify and hold CloudFlare, and its subsidiaries, affiliates, officers, agents, co-branders or other partners, and employees, harmless from any claim or demand, including reasonable attorneys’ fees, arising out of your use of the Service, your connection to the Service, your violation of the Terms of Service, or your violation of any rights of another.

[cjmoles]

No, the question becomes in what jurisdiction was the server located at the time the contract was signed....negligence has nothing to do with it.  And, Betcoin was the mediator in this action between jasonort and Betsoft which complicates the matter to another degree which further justifies the decision to negotiate a settlement rather then litigate the action.

CloudFlare isn't Betcoin's server. They intercept incoming traffic and then let it through to Betcoin's server or don't if they think it represents a threat. Besides, CloudFlare has wisely written a loophole into their TOS:

SECTION 12: INDEMNITY

You agree to indemnify and hold CloudFlare, and its subsidiaries, affiliates, officers, agents, co-branders or other partners, and employees, harmless from any claim or demand, including reasonable attorneys’ fees, arising out of your use of the Service, your connection to the Service, your violation of the Terms of Service, or your violation of any rights of another.

The argument isn't with CloudFare....the jurisdictional argument is "where was the server located which precipitated the signing of the contract on the date it was signed."  The location of the server in which the contract was signed establishes a jurisdictional claim.  It's a holding that is clearly established in international law and is the reason why different jurisdictions have the right to claim peoples private information contained with the cloud if that information passed thru servers within their jurisdictions.

[RazzleDazzle]

Umm, okay, you realize that in order for you to sue someone and collect judgement, that other person has to actually show up in court right?  Please explain to me why Betcoin, operating out of some shady island, is going to buy some economy class tickets, spend money on attorneys, and fly over to Murica to defend against a claim, when ya know...they could just not?  Even assuming that jason gets a default judgement in his favor because no one from Betcoin showed up, how in the world is he going to collect that money?

Do you think the US is going to send over some international task force to break down Betcoin's doors for civil litigation?  Trying to sue Betcoin is literally the most useless, pointless thing ever.  Like that course of action has 0 realistic merit. 

This is so retarded.  Please go and try to sue an entity that does not store their money in the United States and see how successful you are in collecting money. 

[RazzleDazzle]

Related note: Why is it so freakin difficult for Betcoin to just come out say and "yea, we fucked up, our bad, we won't make the same mistake again".  Why are they going through all of this trouble to delete posts, blame the victim, and to hide a colossal blunder that is obvious to pretty much everyone?  Just come out and admit the issue, address how things will be different, and try to do better.  Fact is that a player played a game on Betcoin's site where they should have won X dollars, and he didn't receive the full amount.  What is all this nonsense about moving on and keeping quiet?  When you deposit money into Betcoin and play one of their slots, are you playing with the expectation that if you were to win a jackpot, you would have create forum threads, sign NDAs, and take legal action to collect your winnings?

[marlais]

The argument isn't with CloudFare....the jurisdictional argument is "where was the server located which precipitated the signing of the contract on the date it was signed."  The location of the server in which the contract was signed establishes a jurisdictional claim.  It's a holding that is clearly established in international law and is the reason why different jurisdictions have the right to claim peoples private information contained with the cloud if that information passed thru servers within their jurisdictions.

I think this is a legal gray area at best. A couple weeks ago a court of appeals unanimously ruled that Microsoft didn't need to comply with a search warrant for e-mails they stored on Irish servers. The fact that the data were relayed by a U.S.-based company wasn't enough to give the court jurisdiction over the matter.

http://www.lexology.com/library/detail.aspx?g=ae2fb30d-207e-45ad-9316-4022ec64fd69

However, because Microsoft’s servers were stored in Ireland, the core issue in the case became whether “Microsoft can thwart the government’s otherwise justified demand for the emails at issue by the simple expedient of choosing — in its own discretion — to store them on a server in another country.” Judge Lynch concluded, although somewhat hesitantly, that Microsoft does indeed have this power under the SCA.

[ajareselde]

Related note: Why is it so freakin difficult for Betcoin to just come out say and "yea, we fucked up, our bad, we won't make the same mistake again".  Why are they going through all of this trouble to delete posts, blame the victim, and to hide a colossal blunder that is obvious to pretty much everyone?  Just come out and admit the issue, address how things will be different, and try to do better.  Fact is that a player played a game on Betcoin's site where they should have won X dollars, and he didn't receive the full amount.  What is all this nonsense about moving on and keeping quiet?  When you deposit money into Betcoin and play one of their slots, are you playing with the expectation that if you were to win a jackpot, you would have create forum threads, sign NDAs, and take legal action to collect your winnings?

Valid point, but the problem is that jackpot was won by error in free spin, which should not have happened. That's why they all settled the matter, and Jason was paid an amount
he said he was satisfied with, until he wasn't anymore (wtf..)

It should not have happened in the first place, but you can't expect casino to go bust on an error, especially when blame is on betsoft, and not betcoin.ag.

[jasonort]

Related note: Why is it so freakin difficult for Betcoin to just come out say and "yea, we fucked up, our bad, we won't make the same mistake again".  Why are they going through all of this trouble to delete posts, blame the victim, and to hide a colossal blunder that is obvious to pretty much everyone?  Just come out and admit the issue, address how things will be different, and try to do better.  Fact is that a player played a game on Betcoin's site where they should have won X dollars, and he didn't receive the full amount.  What is all this nonsense about moving on and keeping quiet?  When you deposit money into Betcoin and play one of their slots, are you playing with the expectation that if you were to win a jackpot, you would have create forum threads, sign NDAs, and take legal action to collect your winnings?

Valid point, but the problem is that jackpot was won by error in free spin, which should not have happened. That's why they all settled the matter, and Jason was paid an amount
he said he was satisfied with, until he wasn't anymore (wtf..)

It should not have happened in the first place, but you can't expect casino to go bust on an error, especially when blame is on betsoft, and not betcoin.ag.

OK I'll jump in here.  I am not asking for more money.  Yes I settled.  Am I happy with that, No.  What I am asking for is information.  I want to know how the bets are handled so that I can inform myself and other players on what goes on behind the scenes of an online casino.  This whole experience has left a bad taste in my mouth with software providers being able to not pay on a winning spin by saying that they made a mistake after the fact.  I would like to know the chain of custody of a bet, who handles the money, and who decides a win.  Is it the casino or the software provider.  In this case I would also like to know why betcoin.ag has censored and/or deleted my posts.  If they have nothing to hide and they backed me as they say then why censor me?  And third I simply asked for their opinion on whether they thought I should have been paid the jackpot.  It is simply an opinion and not legally binding as the transaction is apparently between the player and the software provider, with the casino acting only as a middleman.  After what I went through I do not think these questions are asking too much from them.  I am not trying to bash them in a public forum, in fact I have for the most part backed them.  But two weeks have gone by since I posed these questions and I have been completely ignored.  They went so far as to delete my post from their site until I pointed this out publicly on their player chat and embarrassed them enough to put my post back up.  All I want is some transparency, because as it stands I am not confident enough in their site to continue to bet there.  I want to, I like their site, but I need my questions answered first.  Is that really too much to ask?

[ajareselde]

OK I'll jump in here.  I am not asking for more money.  Yes I settled.  Am I happy with that, No.  What I am asking for is information. 

You settled, wrote about how happy you are, and now you say you are not happy with money, but only want information..
I hope you can see how this sounds like you're trying only to hurt middleman here, who went above and beyond with betsoft to get you that settlement.

I simply asked for their opinion on whether they thought I should have been paid the jackpot.

You both should , and should not have won it imo, hence the settlement was the logical choice. I know how cold this may sound, but you know urself that you wouldnt have
taken the deal if you were 100% correct on the matter.

It is simply an opinion and not legally binding as the transaction is apparently between the player and the software provider acting only as a middleman.  After what I went through I do not think these questions are asking too much from them.  I am not trying to bash them in a public forum, in fact I have for the most part backed them.  But two weeks have gone by since I posed these questions and I have been completely ignored.  They went so far as to delete my post from their site until I pointed this out publicly on their player chat and embarrassed enough to put my post back up.  All I want is some transparency, because as it stands I am not confident enough in their site to continue to bet there.  I want to, I like their site, but I need my questions answered first.  Is that really too much to ask?

Fair enough, but i hope you realise that every letter they write about the case gets twisted and turned 99 times by competing casinos and their representatives,
so the best option may be to open a private line of communication. And furthermore, what makes you so sure you are the only one under NDA ?

I can see that you realize that betcoin.ag is the middle man in this situation, and even tho they could have played this out in a better way, i really hope you can
see that they are getting bashed and abused way more than they earned.



After all this said and done, let me ask you a simple question; Do you think betcoin.ag is a scam site ?

[jasonort]

OK I'll jump in here.  I am not asking for more money.  Yes I settled.  Am I happy with that, No.  What I am asking for is information. 

You settled, wrote about how happy you are, and now you say you are not happy with money, but only want information..
I hope you can see how this sounds like you're trying only to hurt middleman here, who went above and beyond with betsoft to get you that settlement.

I simply asked for their opinion on whether they thought I should have been paid the jackpot.

You both should , and should not have won it imo, hence the settlement was the logical choice. I know how cold this may sound, but you know urself that you wouldnt have
taken the deal if you were 100% correct on the matter.

It is simply an opinion and not legally binding as the transaction is apparently between the player and the software provider acting only as a middleman.  After what I went through I do not think these questions are asking too much from them.  I am not trying to bash them in a public forum, in fact I have for the most part backed them.  But two weeks have gone by since I posed these questions and I have been completely ignored.  They went so far as to delete my post from their site until I pointed this out publicly on their player chat and embarrassed enough to put my post back up.  All I want is some transparency, because as it stands I am not confident enough in their site to continue to bet there.  I want to, I like their site, but I need my questions answered first.  Is that really too much to ask?

Fair enough, but i hope you realise that every letter they write about the case gets twisted and turned 99 times by competing casinos and their representatives,
so the best option may be to open a private line of communication. And furthermore, what makes you so sure you are the only one under NDA ?

I can see that you realize that betcoin.ag is the middle man in this situation, and even tho they could have played this out in a better way, i really hope you can
see that they are getting bashed and abused way more than they earned.



After all this said and done, let me ask you a simple question; Do you think betcoin.ag is a scam site ?

I can see that talking with you further will solve nothing. You have deflected all of my questions.  Let's just agree to disagree.

[ajareselde]

I can see that talking with you further will solve nothing. You have deflected all of my questions.  Let's just agree to disagree.

Betsoft provides the software for all of the the top online casinos including Betcoin as well as all payouts directly through there interface. There would be no way for us to even change it as you are technically playing directly on Betsoft servers

Hello Betcoin,

The jackpot can only be won on an active, paid round. So, this behavior is correct being that it was achieved during a free spin session.

Warm Regards,

Support Manager
Betsoft Gaming

Most your question have been answered in first line of communication, but you keep repeating them because you want a different answer.
Can you please answer one question i have asked ?

[TwitchySeal]

Related note: Why is it so freakin difficult for Betcoin to just come out say and "yea, we fucked up, our bad, we won't make the same mistake again".  Why are they going through all of this trouble to delete posts, blame the victim, and to hide a colossal blunder that is obvious to pretty much everyone?  Just come out and admit the issue, address how things will be different, and try to do better.  Fact is that a player played a game on Betcoin's site where they should have won X dollars, and he didn't receive the full amount.  What is all this nonsense about moving on and keeping quiet?  When you deposit money into Betcoin and play one of their slots, are you playing with the expectation that if you were to win a jackpot, you would have create forum threads, sign NDAs, and take legal action to collect your winnings?

Valid point, but the problem is that jackpot was won by error in free spin, which should not have happened. That's why they all settled the matter, and Jason was paid an amount
he said he was satisfied with, until he wasn't anymore (wtf..)

It should not have happened in the first place, but you can't expect casino to go bust on an error, especially when blame is on betsoft, and not betcoin.ag.

What makesyou think that the jackpot shouldn't be won during a free spin?  Because they said so afterwards?  They have other games where jackpots can be won during either regular spin or during freespin bonus rounds, some games jackpot can only be won during bonus rounds.

They also said it was because of the wrong denomination.  

In the end, when  considering the betsoft jackpot data and Bovadas reaction, it's pretty clear (in my opinion) that they didn't know what reason to give because they never thought those 5 symbols would appear on a valid pay line and those 500+ BTC (and growing) will never be paid out to anyone.  

It's also clear that ajaresdale (like cjmoles) has a tendency to make statements as if they are fact when, in reality, they are assumptions or opinions at best and often blatant lies.

[ajareselde]

What makesyou think that the jackpot shouldn't be won during a free spin?  Because they said so afterwards?  They have other games where jackpots can be won during either regular spin or during freespin bonus rounds, some games jackpot can only be won during bonus rounds.

It was betsoft that refused the jackpot, hence the thread title is BetSoft Non-Payment of Jackpot, and not Betcoin Non-Payment of Jackpot, but you only attack betcoin.ag.. hmm.. why is that i wonder..

After a mistake in TOS was pointed out, it was obvious that neither betcoin or betsoft are going to pay them out, but due to the fact that they did make a mistake in
TOS, the only logical move was to settle with client which he accepted and stated this :

I am pleased to say that this matter has been resolved to my satisfaction by all parties involved. Responsibility has been taken by Betcoin.ag for lack of clarification from their customer support, Betsoft has acknowledged that the wording on the pay table may have been cause for misunderstanding with respect to jackpot eligibility. Both parties have been very helpful and cooperative in resolving this and made the necessary adjustments.

...and now he's back wanting more, even tho he wont admit it openly. He can't harras betsoft so he's doing so to betcoin.

In the end, when  considering the betsoft jackpot data and Bovadas reaction, it's pretty clear (in my opinion) that they didn't know what reason to give because they never thought those 5 symbols would appear on a valid pay line and those 500+ BTC (and growing) will never be paid out to anyone.  

It will be paid out when a valid hit happens.

It's also clear that ajaresdale (like cjmoles) has a tendency to make statements as if they are fact when, in reality, they are assumptions or opinions at best and often blatant lies.

I think you are describing yourself.

I would like to ask people to look at TwitchySeal FIRST POSTS ( https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=profile;u=538922;sa=showPosts;start=1080 ) since he created account a year ago or so..  
It's obvious that he created the account primarily to attack betcoin.ag

Why would someone do that, ask yourself ! Well ofc, because he is a shill of other competing casino, and you know on who i mean when i say that.

[Trayber]

Related note: Why is it so freakin difficult for Betcoin to just come out say and "yea, we fucked up, our bad, we won't make the same mistake again".  Why are they going through all of this trouble to delete posts, blame the victim, and to hide a colossal blunder that is obvious to pretty much everyone?  Just come out and admit the issue, address how things will be different, and try to do better.  Fact is that a player played a game on Betcoin's site where they should have won X dollars, and he didn't receive the full amount.  What is all this nonsense about moving on and keeping quiet?  When you deposit money into Betcoin and play one of their slots, are you playing with the expectation that if you were to win a jackpot, you would have create forum threads, sign NDAs, and take legal action to collect your winnings?

Valid point, but the problem is that jackpot was won by error in free spin, which should not have happened. That's why they all settled the matter, and Jason was paid an amount
he said he was satisfied with, until he wasn't anymore (wtf..)

It should not have happened in the first place, but you can't expect casino to go bust on an error, especially when blame is on betsoft, and not betcoin.ag.

Please tell me how the jackpot was hit in error in free spin. Shouldn't a slot paytable say so? I was the first one in this thread to point out that Betsoft changed the paytable only AFTER Jason won the jackpot during the free spin play. Let me get this straight, this slot has been out for 6 1/2 years and it took until now for Betsoft to realize there was a error in this slot again after someone hits the jackpot combination during free spin play. So they can just make up the rules of the game on the go? It comes down to this. Jason got screwed out of hundreds of thousands of dollars because Betsoft is a shady gaming provider and is not honest. Betcoin contracts out games from Betsoft therefore they are not honest either.

[ajareselde]

Please tell me how the jackpot was hit in error in free spin. Shouldn't a slot paytable say so? I was the first one in this thread to point out that Betsoft changed the paytable only AFTER Jason won the jackpot during the free spin play. Let me get this straight, this slot has been out for 6 1/2 years and it took until now for Betsoft to realize there was a error in this slot again after someone hits the jackpot combination during free spin play. So they can just make up the rules of the game on the go? It comes down to this. Jason got screwed out of hundreds of thousands of dollars because Betsoft is a shady gaming provider and is not honest. Betcoin contracts out games from Betsoft therefore they are not honest either.

I wish i could say that there was no error from betcoin, but there was that fact that they didn't have pointed that jackpot cant come from free spin.
The software immediately show how the hit wasn't a valid jackpot, and betsoft confirmed that, so what to do in that situation ?! Nothing else other than
a settlement can fix that, because obviously you don't give someone jackpot amount because of error in TOS.

Jason wan't screwed over, because it wasn't a valid jackpot hit in the first place, due to it being a free spin. The one who lost the most in this case was betcoin,
because it got pressured from Jason, betsoft, and competing casinos who just waited such opportunity with pitches and forks.

[jasonort]

Please tell me how the jackpot was hit in error in free spin. Shouldn't a slot paytable say so? I was the first one in this thread to point out that Betsoft changed the paytable only AFTER Jason won the jackpot during the free spin play. Let me get this straight, this slot has been out for 6 1/2 years and it took until now for Betsoft to realize there was a error in this slot again after someone hits the jackpot combination during free spin play. So they can just make up the rules of the game on the go? It comes down to this. Jason got screwed out of hundreds of thousands of dollars because Betsoft is a shady gaming provider and is not honest. Betcoin contracts out games from Betsoft therefore they are not honest either.

I wish i could say that there was no error from betcoin, but there was that fact that they didn't have pointed that jackpot cant come from free spin.
The software immediately show how the hit wasn't a valid jackpot, and betsoft confirmed that, so what to do in that situation ?! Nothing else other than
a settlement can fix that, because obviously you don't give someone jackpot amount because of error in TOS.

Jason wan't screwed over, because it wasn't a valid jackpot hit in the first place, due to it being a free spin. The one who lost the most in this case was betcoin,
because it got pressured from Jason, betsoft, and competing casinos who just waited such opportunity with pitches and forks.

You seem to know a lot of information about betcoin.  Some of the things you are stating might only be known by someone who is on the inside working for betcoin.  Can you please explain your relationship with betcoin?  If you do work for betcoin stop wasting your time with these replies and answer my questions.  Betcoin would not be getting their reputation tarnished if they had just been straightforward and transparent.  This has never been my intention, and I am not looking to extort money from them.  If these questions had all been answered upfront in an honest way betcoin's reputation would have remained intact.  By digging in your heels and refusing to answer the questions you and betcoin (if in fact those are two different things) are just adding fuel to the fire and digging the hole you are in deeper.  People only evade and refuse to answer questions when telling the truth would expose something that they don't want exposed.  If Betcoin has nothing to hide and they were acting in my best interest all along I welcome them to prove it to me and to the forum by responding to my questions.  If you do I will be satisfied, and would no longer need to post to the forums looking for answers.  I only post here because I have gotten nowhere on Betcoin's site either publicly or privately.

[Quickseller]

No, the question becomes in what jurisdiction was the server located at the time the contract was signed....negligence has nothing to do with it.  And, Betcoin was the mediator in this action between jasonort and Betsoft which complicates the matter to another degree which further justifies the decision to negotiate a settlement rather then litigate the action.

CloudFlare isn't Betcoin's server. They intercept incoming traffic and then let it through to Betcoin's server or don't if they think it represents a threat. Besides, CloudFlare has wisely written a loophole into their TOS:

SECTION 12: INDEMNITY

You agree to indemnify and hold CloudFlare, and its subsidiaries, affiliates, officers, agents, co-branders or other partners, and employees, harmless from any claim or demand, including reasonable attorneys’ fees, arising out of your use of the Service, your connection to the Service, your violation of the Terms of Service, or your violation of any rights of another.

The argument isn't with CloudFare....the jurisdictional argument is "where was the server located which precipitated the signing of the contract on the date it was signed."  The location of the server in which the contract was signed establishes a jurisdictional claim.  It's a holding that is clearly established in international law and is the reason why different jurisdictions have the right to claim peoples private information contained with the cloud if that information passed thru servers within their jurisdictions.

Most contracts have a clause that says something along the lines that if there is a dispute over a contract that a certain court will have jurisdiction over a lawsuit about the contract. If this is the case, then both parties would have consented for the particular court to have jurisdiction over the parties regarding that contract.

If the above did not happen, then in order for a court to have jurisdiction over a lawsuit, then one of the parties either needs to have assets in the location of the court, be physically located in the location of the court or regularly conduct business in the location of the court. If someone receives judgment in a jurisdiction in which assets are not located, then generally speaking a second lawsuit will need to be filed in a jurisdiction where assets are located in order to collect on the judgment.

Regardless of where a lawsuit would need to be filed, I do not care about what Judge Judy says about the case. The bottom line is that I view both betcoin's and betsoft's actions and business practices to be unfair, including their jackpot practices. To me, based on my independent research, and based on what betcoin has publicly stated, I believe that Jason should have received the full amount of the Jackpot.

The cost of litigating any dispute is always very expensive. A lot of the time, the entity with the larger budget for litigation is going to win because the other party will simply run out of money. Litigation is also going to be a wast of money/time if the party you are suing does not have assets period or does not have assets in a jurisdiction that will enforce a judgment in this kind of case. 

[ajareselde]

You seem to know a lot of information about betcoin.  Some of the things you are stating might only be known by someone who is on the inside working for betcoin.  Can you please explain your relationship with betcoin?  If you do work for betcoin stop wasting your time with these replies and answer my questions.  Betcoin would not be getting their reputation tarnished if they had just been straightforward and transparent.  This has never been my intention, and I am not looking to extort money from them.  If these questions had all been answered upfront in an honest way betcoin's reputation would have remained intact.  By digging in your heels and refusing to answer the questions you and betcoin (if in fact those are two different things) are just adding fuel to the fire and digging the hole you are in deeper.  People only evade and refuse to answer questions when telling the truth would expose something that they don't want exposed.  If Betcoin has nothing to hide and they were acting in my best interest all along I welcome them to prove it to me and to the forum by responding to my questions.  If you do I will be satisfied, and would no longer need to post to the forums looking for answers.  I only post here because I have gotten nowhere on Betcoin's site either publicly or privately.

I got dragged into this mess when your bad stance allowed creation of bullying and threatening atmosphere from competing casino affiliates/members/owners towards
members of betcoin.ag campaign.

So not only are the ones that enabled you to atleast get the settlement with betsoft on basis of nothing more than an oversight, an error, but also all others that
have nothing to do with the whole situation are being attacked.

You keep talking about dismissing the questions while i try to answer as much of them as i can, while at the same time you keep avoiding
only one i'm asking you; Do you honestly think betcoin.ag is a scam site?

[Quickseller]

I got dragged into this mess when your bad stance allowed creation of bullying and threatening atmosphere from competing casino affiliates/members/owners towards
members of betcoin.ag campaign.

You could have very well done the responsible thing and resigned from the campaign after it was disclosed how BetCoin's business/jackpot practices are. Nothing is forcing you to stay in the campaign.

So not only are the ones that enabled you to atleast get the settlement with betsoft on basis of nothing more than an oversight, an error,

I don't think there was an error in the TOS and/or the terms of the jackpot. I would equate the difference to be something more along the lines of a state run lottery (like Powerball) saying that anyone who matches all drawn numbers for a particular drawing wins the jackpot, then the lottery saying that they will not payout the jackpot because the numbers were drawn on the Wednesday drawing as opposed to the Saturday drawing, so you are instead entitled only to a small fraction of the jackpot, and there was never any mention of this rule anywhere publicly.

You keep talking about dismissing the questions while i try to answer as much of them as i can, while at the same time you keep avoiding
only one i'm asking you; Do you honestly think betcoin.ag is a scam site?

I think we both know that Jason's settlement agreement prevents him from answering this question. 

[cjmoles]

No, the question becomes in what jurisdiction was the server located at the time the contract was signed....negligence has nothing to do with it.  And, Betcoin was the mediator in this action between jasonort and Betsoft which complicates the matter to another degree which further justifies the decision to negotiate a settlement rather then litigate the action.

CloudFlare isn't Betcoin's server. They intercept incoming traffic and then let it through to Betcoin's server or don't if they think it represents a threat. Besides, CloudFlare has wisely written a loophole into their TOS:

SECTION 12: INDEMNITY

You agree to indemnify and hold CloudFlare, and its subsidiaries, affiliates, officers, agents, co-branders or other partners, and employees, harmless from any claim or demand, including reasonable attorneys’ fees, arising out of your use of the Service, your connection to the Service, your violation of the Terms of Service, or your violation of any rights of another.

The argument isn't with CloudFare....the jurisdictional argument is "where was the server located which precipitated the signing of the contract on the date it was signed."  The location of the server in which the contract was signed establishes a jurisdictional claim.  It's a holding that is clearly established in international law and is the reason why different jurisdictions have the right to claim peoples private information contained with the cloud if that information passed thru servers within their jurisdictions.

Most contracts have a clause that says something along the lines that if there is a dispute over a contract that a certain court will have jurisdiction over a lawsuit about the contract. If this is the case, then both parties would have consented for the particular court to have jurisdiction over the parties regarding that contract.

If the above did not happen, then in order for a court to have jurisdiction over a lawsuit, then one of the parties either needs to have assets in the location of the court, be physically located in the location of the court or regularly conduct business in the location of the court. If someone receives judgment in a jurisdiction in which assets are not located, then generally speaking a second lawsuit will need to be filed in a jurisdiction where assets are located in order to collect on the judgment.

Regardless of where a lawsuit would need to be filed, I do not care about what Judge Judy says about the case. The bottom line is that I view both betcoin's and betsoft's actions and business practices to be unfair, including their jackpot practices. To me, based on my independent research, and based on what betcoin has publicly stated, I believe that Jason should have received the full amount of the Jackpot.

The cost of litigating any dispute is always very expensive. A lot of the time, the entity with the larger budget for litigation is going to win because the other party will simply run out of money. Litigation is also going to be a wast of money/time if the party you are suing does not have assets period or does not have assets in a jurisdiction that will enforce a judgment in this kind of case.  

I agree that the best resolution to this problem was in mediation, for many reasons.  The fact that a mediation process had even been considered is commendable because it would have been a "nasty" process otherwise.  There have been several similar instances with "brick and mortar" casinos regarding outsourced progressive jackpots and liability.  I have included two below as reference.  I included them because they are cases involving some of the largest providers in the industry which had gone through multiple levels of review.  I cited them here only as a reference to the complexity of the issue in the hopes that some of the dicta contained therein may be helpful.

(Arguments that demonstrate liability for outsourced progressives.)

Garrett GRIGGS and Stephen Livaudais v. HARRAH'S CASINO, Jazz Casino Corporation and IGT, Incorporated.
No. 2005-CA-0321.

"1.   A progressive slot machine is a machine that is linked by computer to similar slot machines in other casinos.   Each linked slot machine contributes money from that machine to a single jackpot, which is called a progressive jackpot.   The progressive jackpot is much larger than any jackpot a single slot machine could pay.   Often the manufacturer of the progressive slot machines is the owner of the machines and is responsible for paying the progressive jackpots that are won.   In the instant case, IGT manufactured and owned the Wheel of Fortune slot machine and was responsible for paying any progressive jackpots won on that machine."  ( http://caselaw.findlaw.com/la-court-of-appeal/1080167.html#footnote_ref_1 )

(Argument's that maybe in jasonort's favor against Betsoft.)


Supreme Court of Mississippi.  IGT v. Nancy KELLY.  No. 1998-CC-01783-SCT.  Decided: March 1, 2001

"¶ 25.   Accordingly, this Court finds the Harrison County Circuit Court was correct in affirming the Mississippi Gaming Commission's ruling, which found the Pokermania machine's signage to be ambiguous. We also conclude an administrative agency is not bound to follow authority in another jurisdiction and that the hearing examiner did not err by relying on a previous decision of the Mississippi Gaming Commission, which states ambiguity is to be resolved in favor of the patron.   The judgment of the Harrison County Circuit Court is affirmed, and the case is remanded to the circuit court for entry of a judgment specifying the method of payment in accordance with applicable law." ( http://caselaw.findlaw.com/ms-supreme-court/1440921.html )

These cases exemplify the complexity of the issues involved and demonstrate the value of the mediation process in trying to achieve an equitable resolution in this situation.

[Quickseller]

No, the question becomes in what jurisdiction was the server located at the time the contract was signed....negligence has nothing to do with it.  And, Betcoin was the mediator in this action between jasonort and Betsoft which complicates the matter to another degree which further justifies the decision to negotiate a settlement rather then litigate the action.

CloudFlare isn't Betcoin's server. They intercept incoming traffic and then let it through to Betcoin's server or don't if they think it represents a threat. Besides, CloudFlare has wisely written a loophole into their TOS:

SECTION 12: INDEMNITY

You agree to indemnify and hold CloudFlare, and its subsidiaries, affiliates, officers, agents, co-branders or other partners, and employees, harmless from any claim or demand, including reasonable attorneys’ fees, arising out of your use of the Service, your connection to the Service, your violation of the Terms of Service, or your violation of any rights of another.

The argument isn't with CloudFare....the jurisdictional argument is "where was the server located which precipitated the signing of the contract on the date it was signed."  The location of the server in which the contract was signed establishes a jurisdictional claim.  It's a holding that is clearly established in international law and is the reason why different jurisdictions have the right to claim peoples private information contained with the cloud if that information passed thru servers within their jurisdictions.

Most contracts have a clause that says something along the lines that if there is a dispute over a contract that a certain court will have jurisdiction over a lawsuit about the contract. If this is the case, then both parties would have consented for the particular court to have jurisdiction over the parties regarding that contract.

If the above did not happen, then in order for a court to have jurisdiction over a lawsuit, then one of the parties either needs to have assets in the location of the court, be physically located in the location of the court or regularly conduct business in the location of the court. If someone receives judgment in a jurisdiction in which assets are not located, then generally speaking a second lawsuit will need to be filed in a jurisdiction where assets are located in order to collect on the judgment.

Regardless of where a lawsuit would need to be filed, I do not care about what Judge Judy says about the case. The bottom line is that I view both betcoin's and betsoft's actions and business practices to be unfair, including their jackpot practices. To me, based on my independent research, and based on what betcoin has publicly stated, I believe that Jason should have received the full amount of the Jackpot.

The cost of litigating any dispute is always very expensive. A lot of the time, the entity with the larger budget for litigation is going to win because the other party will simply run out of money. Litigation is also going to be a wast of money/time if the party you are suing does not have assets period or does not have assets in a jurisdiction that will enforce a judgment in this kind of case. 

I agree that the best resolution to this problem was in mediation, for many reasons.  The fact that a mediation process had even been considered is commendable because it would have been a "nasty" process otherwise.  There have been several similar instances with "brick and mortar" casinos regarding outsourced progressive jackpots and liability.  I have included two below as reference.  I included them because they are cases involving some of the largest providers in the industry which had gone through multiple levels of review.  I cited them here only as a reference to the complexity of the issue in the hopes that some of the dicta contained therein may be helpful.

(Arguments that demonstrate liability for outsourced progressives.)

Garrett GRIGGS and Stephen Livaudais v. HARRAH'S CASINO, Jazz Casino Corporation and IGT, Incorporated.
No. 2005-CA-0321.

"1.   A progressive slot machine is a machine that is linked by computer to similar slot machines in other casinos.   Each linked slot machine contributes money from that machine to a single jackpot, which is called a progressive jackpot.   The progressive jackpot is much larger than any jackpot a single slot machine could pay.   Often the manufacturer of the progressive slot machines is the owner of the machines and is responsible for paying the progressive jackpots that are won.   In the instant case, IGT manufactured and owned the Wheel of Fortune slot machine and was responsible for paying any progressive jackpots won on that machine."  ( http://caselaw.findlaw.com/la-court-of-appeal/1080167.html#footnote_ref_1 )

(Argument's that maybe in jasonort's favor against Betsoft.)


Supreme Court of Mississippi.  IGT v. Nancy KELLY.  No. 1998-CC-01783-SCT.  Decided: March 1, 2001

"¶ 25.   Accordingly, this Court finds the Harrison County Circuit Court was correct in affirming the Mississippi Gaming Commission's ruling, which found the Pokermania machine's signage to be ambiguous. We also conclude an administrative agency is not bound to follow authority in another jurisdiction and that the hearing examiner did not err by relying on a previous decision of the Mississippi Gaming Commission, which states ambiguity is to be resolved in favor of the patron.   The judgment of the Harrison County Circuit Court is affirmed, and the case is remanded to the circuit court for entry of a judgment specifying the method of payment in accordance with applicable law." ( http://caselaw.findlaw.com/ms-supreme-court/1440921.html )

These cases exemplify the complexity of the issues involved and demonstrate the value of the mediation process in trying to achieve an equitable resolution in this situation.

I would not say that either of those cases are in favor of BetCoin. Even if BetSoft is the entity who is legally required to payout a jackpot, it remains that it is BetCoin.ag who directed the customer to BetSoft, and it is BetCoin that, despite being very well aware of Betsoft's history, has decided to continue to send customers to BetSoft.

Regardless of the above, I do not care what the courts say (or would say) about the case. What I care about is what is fair, and if I think it is appropriate to trust BetCoin.ag in the future. If a website is sending people to a third party that has a history of not paying out it's obligations when it should, then yes, I would think that website is a scam.

[TwitchySeal]

mediation?  who was going to mediate? when was it discussed?

are you implying the casino that jasonort was playing at was the mediator?  or thepogg.com

[jasonort]

You seem to know a lot of information about betcoin.  Some of the things you are stating might only be known by someone who is on the inside working for betcoin.  Can you please explain your relationship with betcoin?  If you do work for betcoin stop wasting your time with these replies and answer my questions.  Betcoin would not be getting their reputation tarnished if they had just been straightforward and transparent.  This has never been my intention, and I am not looking to extort money from them.  If these questions had all been answered upfront in an honest way betcoin's reputation would have remained intact.  By digging in your heels and refusing to answer the questions you and betcoin (if in fact those are two different things) are just adding fuel to the fire and digging the hole you are in deeper.  People only evade and refuse to answer questions when telling the truth would expose something that they don't want exposed.  If Betcoin has nothing to hide and they were acting in my best interest all along I welcome them to prove it to me and to the forum by responding to my questions.  If you do I will be satisfied, and would no longer need to post to the forums looking for answers.  I only post here because I have gotten nowhere on Betcoin's site either publicly or privately.

I got dragged into this mess when your bad stance allowed creation of bullying and threatening atmosphere from competing casino affiliates/members/owners towards
members of betcoin.ag campaign.

So not only are the ones that enabled you to atleast get the settlement with betsoft on basis of nothing more than an oversight, an error, but also all others that
have nothing to do with the whole situation are being attacked.

You keep talking about dismissing the questions while i try to answer as much of them as i can, while at the same time you keep avoiding
only one i'm asking you; Do you honestly think betcoin.ag is a scam site?

OK.  I will be civil and I will answer your question first.  Do I think it is an outright scam?  No more than any other casino (the house always has the edge).  Do I think that they put profit ahead of players?  Absolutely.  Am I currently comfortable wagering there?  No.  The reason that I have not wagered there since settling is this is because in order to be comfortable I need to have my questions that I have asked them answered.  I need to understand their relationship with their software providers.  I want to understand who is ultimately responsible for paying me if I win.  Now let me ask you a question, and please do me the courtesy of answering it.  If this spin had happened in a brick and mortar casino in las vegas regulated by a legitimate gaming authority and I hit five yachts on the payline would the casino have had to pay me the jackpot?

[cjmoles]

You seem to know a lot of information about betcoin.  Some of the things you are stating might only be known by someone who is on the inside working for betcoin.  Can you please explain your relationship with betcoin?  If you do work for betcoin stop wasting your time with these replies and answer my questions.  Betcoin would not be getting their reputation tarnished if they had just been straightforward and transparent.  This has never been my intention, and I am not looking to extort money from them.  If these questions had all been answered upfront in an honest way betcoin's reputation would have remained intact.  By digging in your heels and refusing to answer the questions you and betcoin (if in fact those are two different things) are just adding fuel to the fire and digging the hole you are in deeper.  People only evade and refuse to answer questions when telling the truth would expose something that they don't want exposed.  If Betcoin has nothing to hide and they were acting in my best interest all along I welcome them to prove it to me and to the forum by responding to my questions.  If you do I will be satisfied, and would no longer need to post to the forums looking for answers.  I only post here because I have gotten nowhere on Betcoin's site either publicly or privately.

I got dragged into this mess when your bad stance allowed creation of bullying and threatening atmosphere from competing casino affiliates/members/owners towards
members of betcoin.ag campaign.

So not only are the ones that enabled you to atleast get the settlement with betsoft on basis of nothing more than an oversight, an error, but also all others that
have nothing to do with the whole situation are being attacked.

You keep talking about dismissing the questions while i try to answer as much of them as i can, while at the same time you keep avoiding
only one i'm asking you; Do you honestly think betcoin.ag is a scam site?

OK.  I will be civil and I will answer your question first.  Do I think it is an outright scam?  No more than any other casino (the house always has the edge).  Do I think that they put profit ahead of players?  Absolutely.  Am I currently comfortable wagering there?  No.  The reason that I have not wagered there since settling is this is because in order to be comfortable I need to have my questions that I have asked them answered.  I need to understand their relationship with their software providers.  I want to understand who is ultimately responsible for paying me if I win.  Now let me ask you a question, and please do me the courtesy of answering it.  If this spin had happened in a brick and mortar casino in las vegas regulated by a legitimate gaming authority and I hit five yachts on the payline would the casino have had to pay me the jackpot?

Here is an answer:

Garrett GRIGGS and Stephen Livaudais v. HARRAH'S CASINO, Jazz Casino Corporation and IGT, Incorporated.
No. 2005-CA-0321.

"1.   A progressive slot machine is a machine that is linked by computer to similar slot machines in other casinos.   Each linked slot machine contributes money from that machine to a single jackpot, which is called a progressive jackpot.   The progressive jackpot is much larger than any jackpot a single slot machine could pay.   Often the manufacturer of the progressive slot machines is the owner of the machines and is responsible for paying the progressive jackpots that are won.   In the instant case, IGT manufactured and owned the Wheel of Fortune slot machine and was responsible for paying any progressive jackpots won on that machine."  ( http://caselaw.findlaw.com/la-court-of-appeal/1080167.html#footnote_ref_1 )

Read the case citation for further details.

[cjmoles]

No, the question becomes in what jurisdiction was the server located at the time the contract was signed....negligence has nothing to do with it.  And, Betcoin was the mediator in this action between jasonort and Betsoft which complicates the matter to another degree which further justifies the decision to negotiate a settlement rather then litigate the action.

CloudFlare isn't Betcoin's server. They intercept incoming traffic and then let it through to Betcoin's server or don't if they think it represents a threat. Besides, CloudFlare has wisely written a loophole into their TOS:

SECTION 12: INDEMNITY

You agree to indemnify and hold CloudFlare, and its subsidiaries, affiliates, officers, agents, co-branders or other partners, and employees, harmless from any claim or demand, including reasonable attorneys’ fees, arising out of your use of the Service, your connection to the Service, your violation of the Terms of Service, or your violation of any rights of another.

The argument isn't with CloudFare....the jurisdictional argument is "where was the server located which precipitated the signing of the contract on the date it was signed."  The location of the server in which the contract was signed establishes a jurisdictional claim.  It's a holding that is clearly established in international law and is the reason why different jurisdictions have the right to claim peoples private information contained with the cloud if that information passed thru servers within their jurisdictions.

Most contracts have a clause that says something along the lines that if there is a dispute over a contract that a certain court will have jurisdiction over a lawsuit about the contract. If this is the case, then both parties would have consented for the particular court to have jurisdiction over the parties regarding that contract.

If the above did not happen, then in order for a court to have jurisdiction over a lawsuit, then one of the parties either needs to have assets in the location of the court, be physically located in the location of the court or regularly conduct business in the location of the court. If someone receives judgment in a jurisdiction in which assets are not located, then generally speaking a second lawsuit will need to be filed in a jurisdiction where assets are located in order to collect on the judgment.

Regardless of where a lawsuit would need to be filed, I do not care about what Judge Judy says about the case. The bottom line is that I view both betcoin's and betsoft's actions and business practices to be unfair, including their jackpot practices. To me, based on my independent research, and based on what betcoin has publicly stated, I believe that Jason should have received the full amount of the Jackpot.

The cost of litigating any dispute is always very expensive. A lot of the time, the entity with the larger budget for litigation is going to win because the other party will simply run out of money. Litigation is also going to be a wast of money/time if the party you are suing does not have assets period or does not have assets in a jurisdiction that will enforce a judgment in this kind of case.  

I agree that the best resolution to this problem was in mediation, for many reasons.  The fact that a mediation process had even been considered is commendable because it would have been a "nasty" process otherwise.  There have been several similar instances with "brick and mortar" casinos regarding outsourced progressive jackpots and liability.  I have included two below as reference.  I included them because they are cases involving some of the largest providers in the industry which had gone through multiple levels of review.  I cited them here only as a reference to the complexity of the issue in the hopes that some of the dicta contained therein may be helpful.

(Arguments that demonstrate liability for outsourced progressives.)

Garrett GRIGGS and Stephen Livaudais v. HARRAH'S CASINO, Jazz Casino Corporation and IGT, Incorporated.
No. 2005-CA-0321.

"1.   A progressive slot machine is a machine that is linked by computer to similar slot machines in other casinos.   Each linked slot machine contributes money from that machine to a single jackpot, which is called a progressive jackpot.   The progressive jackpot is much larger than any jackpot a single slot machine could pay.   Often the manufacturer of the progressive slot machines is the owner of the machines and is responsible for paying the progressive jackpots that are won.   In the instant case, IGT manufactured and owned the Wheel of Fortune slot machine and was responsible for paying any progressive jackpots won on that machine."  ( http://caselaw.findlaw.com/la-court-of-appeal/1080167.html#footnote_ref_1 )

(Argument's that maybe in jasonort's favor against Betsoft.)


Supreme Court of Mississippi.  IGT v. Nancy KELLY.  No. 1998-CC-01783-SCT.  Decided: March 1, 2001

"¶ 25.   Accordingly, this Court finds the Harrison County Circuit Court was correct in affirming the Mississippi Gaming Commission's ruling, which found the Pokermania machine's signage to be ambiguous. We also conclude an administrative agency is not bound to follow authority in another jurisdiction and that the hearing examiner did not err by relying on a previous decision of the Mississippi Gaming Commission, which states ambiguity is to be resolved in favor of the patron.   The judgment of the Harrison County Circuit Court is affirmed, and the case is remanded to the circuit court for entry of a judgment specifying the method of payment in accordance with applicable law." ( http://caselaw.findlaw.com/ms-supreme-court/1440921.html )

These cases exemplify the complexity of the issues involved and demonstrate the value of the mediation process in trying to achieve an equitable resolution in this situation.

I would not say that either of those cases are in favor of BetCoin. Even if BetSoft is the entity who is legally required to payout a jackpot, it remains that it is BetCoin.ag who directed the customer to BetSoft, and it is BetCoin that, despite being very well aware of Betsoft's history, has decided to continue to send customers to BetSoft.

Regardless of the above, I do not care what the courts say (or would say) about the case. What I care about is what is fair, and if I think it is appropriate to trust BetCoin.ag in the future. If a website is sending people to a third party that has a history of not paying out it's obligations when it should, then yes, I would think that website is a scam.

I would not say that either of those cases are in favor of BetCoin. Even if BetSoft is the entity who is legally required to payout a jackpot, it remains that it is BetCoin.ag who directed the customer to BetSoft, and it is BetCoin that, despite being very well aware of Betsoft's history, has decided to continue to send customers to BetSoft.

Betsoft did not have a history of not paying.  They provided some of the most innovative slots in the industry and they have been a respected brand within the gaming community.  There has not been a history of Betsoft defaulting on it's obligations.

Regardless of the above, I do not care what the courts say (or would say) about the case. What I care about is what is fair, and if I think it is appropriate to trust BetCoin.ag in the future. If a website is sending people to a third party that has a history of not paying out it's obligations when it should, then yes, I would think that website is a scam.

I agree, if a website did send people to a third party that has a history of not paying out their obligations when they should, then I think that you would be justified in believing they are a scam.  But, in jasonort's case, there was payment, despite the fact that Betsoft didn't feel they were obligated to pay.  Betsoft disputed the interpretation of whether or not a "free spin" qualified as a "maximum bet" wager as stipulated in the rules and implemented in the coding of the software.  What was in question here was the interpretation of those conditions.

I brought up the case above to point out how outsourcing the progressive jackpots work; it's the only way to provide such large jackpots to the consumer.  It's a standard practice in the industry but there are situations that arise which are disputed, even among the most respected brands.  Consequently, Harrah's still uses IGT games....so do most US "brick and mortar" casinos which are highly regulated.

I might add that Betsoft is among the largest players in the online gaming industry; in fact, even casinolistings.com, which brought up the statistical claims against Betsoft, Bovada, and slots.lv, is reluctant to put them on their own blacklist until all the evidence is evaluated. (https://www.casinolistings.com/news/2016/07/betcoin-ag-betsoft-force-shafted-jackpot-winner-into-agreement#comment-48568)  Furthermore, casinolistings has a problem with ANY purely cryptocurrency based casino and none of the purely cryptocurrency based casinos found on this forum would meet their standards.

All I'm saying is that this incident is not as cut and dry as many of the competitor's shills would have it seem.  If jasonort hadn't settled, then we'd have had a better picture because things could have been decided in the resolution process.  But, as it stands, Betsoft paid a settlement, upon Betcoin's urging, that they didn't feel they had an obligation to pay.  Both parties, Betsoft and jasonort, had their own valid interpretation of the conditions of the game which could be argued.  However, I believe the casino would have prevailed in formal proceedings because it would have been difficult to prove that "free spin" == "max bet" in the common senses of the terms.  Consequently, to avoid future disputes, it was necessary that Betsoft clarify the conditions of the game at that point.

Now, if jasontort is still publicly claiming that he was wronged, then he needs to challenge the validity of his agreement with the proper authority.  In contrast to what has been claimed, there are venues that can be exhausted in the resolution of these type of disputes.

I am always on the players side and if I thought that a place I played at was scamming people out of their money, or allowing others to scam their patrons out of their money, then I'd be the first to stand up and cry foul; however, I do not feel that Betcoin.ag is trying to steal peoples money, nor have I seen any credible evidence that they have or may do so in the future.

I might add:  I don't know what to think about Betsoft at this point because they still have some explaining to do regarding the interpretation of the statistical analysis of the Bovada and slots.lv progressive jackpots.  Bovada and Slots.lv have common owners and casinolistings.com has some pretty far reaching interpretations of the data they collected, so something will break....I just don't know what....it could be misinterpreted data, could be bad casino owners, or it could be bad software providers.  It's not conclusive at this point.

[CL-Ed]

Betsoft did not have a history of not paying.  They provided some of the most innovative slots in the industry and they have been a respected brand within the gaming community.  There has not been a history of Betsoft defaulting on it's obligations.

Why do shills for this company keep repeating this garbage about their "innovative" games and their "respect" within the industry and alluding to how they are such a big player etc? Its the most transparent and obvious marketing schtick and it is completely revisionist and false.

They are not the big player that they want everyone to believe they are. The major forces in this industry are the likes of Microgaming, Net Entertainment, Playtech (sadly), Novomatic, IGT and others. Betsoft are a bit part player at best, mostly used either by cheap casinos that don't have the funds to license the best software, or ones that want to accept American players that the major industry providers won't go near.

You want to talk about Betsoft's history? How about the time in 2010 when they were busted running a rigged Keno game? Or the time in 2014 when Alderney revoked their license to operate? Or the 9 month investigation that we did that revealed that they do in fact "have a history of not paying", specifically with unwinnable progressive jackpots. Those are facts, not marketing drivel.

I agree, if a website did send people to a third party that has a history of not paying out their obligations when they should, then I think that you would be justified in believing they are a scam.

Great, seeing as I have demonstrated this then you do agree that they are scammers.

I brought up the case above to point out how outsourcing the progressive jackpots work; it's the only way to provide such large jackpots to the consumer.

That may be the case if we were talking about a networked progressive that is shared amongst casinos. But we aren't. The jackpot that Jason was robbed of was specific to Betcoin. No other casino. So no, you're completely wrong when you say "it's the only way to provide such large jackpots to the consumer" because clearly, it isn't.

I might add that Betsoft is among the largest players in the online gaming industry; in fact, even casinolistings.com, which brought up the statistical claims against Betsoft, Bovada, and slots.lv, is reluctant to put them on their own blacklist until all the evidence is evaluated.

Wrong and wrong again. Did you even read what you linked to where I said "while we haven't written them up yet on the blacklist page, they are definitely going on there in short order"? Our blacklist page features Betsoft (and Betcoin too).

Furthermore, casinolistings has a problem with ANY purely cryptocurrency based casino and none of the purely cryptocurrency based casinos found on this forum would meet their standards.

This is again incorrect. We have a problem with unlicensed and unregulated casinos. The fact that almost all crypto casinos meet that definition probably leads to your misinterpretation. We like provably fair games and Bitcoin as a payment method is quick and cheap. Its great. But when the casino is not accountable to anyone and can just disappear overnight then I would not recommend playing there for the same reason I would not store BTC in an online wallet or exchange.

[cjmoles]

Betsoft did not have a history of not paying.  They provided some of the most innovative slots in the industry and they have been a respected brand within the gaming community.  There has not been a history of Betsoft defaulting on it's obligations.

Why do shills for this company keep repeating this garbage about their "innovative" games and their "respect" within the industry and alluding to how they are such a big player etc? Its the most transparent and obvious marketing schtick and it is completely revisionist and false.

They are not the big player that they want everyone to believe they are. The major forces in this industry are the likes of Microgaming, Net Entertainment, Playtech (sadly), Novomatic, IGT and others. Betsoft are a bit part player at best, mostly used either by cheap casinos that don't have the funds to license the best software, or ones that want to accept American players that the major industry providers won't go near.

You want to talk about Betsoft's history? How about the time in 2010 when they were busted running a rigged Keno game? Or the time in 2014 when Alderney revoked their license to operate? Or the 9 month investigation that we did that revealed that they do in fact "have a history of not paying", specifically with unwinnable progressive jackpots. Those are facts, not marketing drivel.

I agree, if a website did send people to a third party that has a history of not paying out their obligations when they should, then I think that you would be justified in believing they are a scam.

Great, seeing as I have demonstrated this then you do agree that they are scammers.

I brought up the case above to point out how outsourcing the progressive jackpots work; it's the only way to provide such large jackpots to the consumer.

That may be the case if we were talking about a networked progressive that is shared amongst casinos. But we aren't. The jackpot that Jason was robbed of was specific to Betcoin. No other casino. So no, you're completely wrong when you say "it's the only way to provide such large jackpots to the consumer" because clearly, it isn't.

I might add that Betsoft is among the largest players in the online gaming industry; in fact, even casinolistings.com, which brought up the statistical claims against Betsoft, Bovada, and slots.lv, is reluctant to put them on their own blacklist until all the evidence is evaluated.

Wrong and wrong again. Did you even read what you linked to where I said "while we haven't written them up yet on the blacklist page, they are definitely going on there in short order"? Our blacklist page features Betsoft (and Betcoin too).

Furthermore, casinolistings has a problem with ANY purely cryptocurrency based casino and none of the purely cryptocurrency based casinos found on this forum would meet their standards.

This is again incorrect. We have a problem with unlicensed and unregulated casinos. The fact that almost all crypto casinos meet that definition probably leads to your misinterpretation. We like provably fair games and Bitcoin as a payment method is quick and cheap. Its great. But when the casino is not accountable to anyone and can just disappear overnight then I would not recommend playing there for the same reason I would not store BTC in an online wallet or exchange.

So, you do have purely cryptocurrency based casinos on your "whitelist?"  I couldn't find one.  However, it's nice to know that you endorse those cites that claim they're "provably fair" but I didn't see a single reference on your cite of you auditing any of their RNG software in order to validate that sweeping endorsement.

Anyway, I'm not going to take the time to refute the arguments about Betsofts products and comparing it to IGT because IGT is not in  the same market and MicroGaming shut it's doors to the United States many years ago.  But wasn't your study an in house limited scope statistical analysis that's open for interpretation?  Are you saying that your analysis shows irrefutably that Betsoft cheated? And, wasn't the 2010 incident related to rogue casinos and wasn't the exploit also advantageous to players as well, and weren't they using the Cereus "RNG?" (http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/29/news-views-gossip-sponsored-online-poker-report/absolute-poker-keno-rigged-x-posted-nvg-zoo-898568/)   But as long as your relying on IGT as a reliable brand, haven't they had similar disputes? (http://caselaw.findlaw.com/la-court-of-appeal/1080167.html)  

You claim that Betsoft has a history of non-payment but I couldn't find a single case....None of the occurrences you mentioned included a default of payment obligation by Betsoft.  What gives?

EDIT: And don't you think it's funny to place Betcoin on your blacklist for using Betsoft software when you yourself failed to blacklist the brand at the same time?  Have you blacklisted all the casinos you endorse that use the Betsoft software?  Are you sure you're not biased?

RE-EDIT:  Don't get me wrong; I'm not claiming that it's impossible, or even improbable, that Betsoft is not a legitimate brand, but what I AM saying is that the evidence is far from irrefutable, and your statistical analysis is of limited scope and open for interpretation.  The evidence is suspicious under certain interpretation but it's not enough to ruin honest peoples careers without further evidence.

[Trayber]

EDIT: And don't you think it's funny to place Betcoin on your blacklist for using Betsoft software when you yourself failed to blacklist the brand at the same time?  Have you blacklisted all the casinos you endorse that use the Betsoft software?  Are you sure you're not biased?

^^ This



I definitely don't agree with many of cjmoles comments but he brings up a very valid point and is something that should be addressed by Casino Listings Ed.

Why are you still willing to take affiliate money from many of the casinos you promote that primarily offer Betsoft games when in fact you know the evidence is to damning with the Bovada situation that they rig the progressive games.

BTW, I'm thankful for all the work you put in with your investigations but its hypocritical to continue to promote the Betsoft crooks on your site with casinos still operating their shady software.

[CL-Ed]

So, you do have purely cryptocurrency based casinos on your "whitelist?"  I couldn't find one.  However, it's nice to know that you endorse those cites that claim they're "provably fair" but I didn't see a single reference on your cite of you auditing any of their RNG software in order to validate that sweeping endorsement.

I haven't endorsed anyone or anything. I have expressed my personal opinion to show you that we are not anti-crypto casino which was your statement. We don't have a "whitelist". We review casinos and rate them accordingly. The really bad ones that cheat their own customers get blacklisted, like Betcoin. Personally I would not play at any casino that we have rated less than 4 out of 5, and we tell people that on our review index page. You could consider that our whitelist if you want to.

We don't audit anyone's RNG. I don't know what you're trying to prove with that statement. The uselessness of Betsoft's RNG audit is a prime example of the potential advantage provably fair games have over games that have no auditing, testing, or regulation. However, provably fair games aren't a panacea. They don't stop on operator from disappearing with everyone's money for example. How can you on the one hand lambast us for being anti-crypto casinos, then have a go at me when I say I like the idea of provably fair games? Surely you're not being disingenuous and attempting to derail and obfuscate?

We have reviewed several SoftSwiss casinos that offer Bitcoin and currency play, and all are licensed and regulated. We haven't reviewed any crypto-only casinos for no particular reason other than we have an ongoing review list that takes time to process. We have a small staff and an endless list of casinos to get through (447 reviewed vs 1133 in our database). Again, you're making assumptions and saying ignorant things based on those assumptions that are completely wrong.

But wasn't your study an in house limited scope statistical analysis that's open for interpretation?

What does that statement even mean? It is pure unmitigated FUD meant to sow doubt in the mind of anyone reading this without actually saying anything of value. How would we do a study that wasn't "in house"? What about it was "limited scope"? Everything anyone ever says is "open for interpretation". I would love to hear your interpretation of the differences between the jackpots on the same game that we noted between Bovada and Slots.lv. What reasonable explanation do you have for the fact that they were unwinnable at Bovada? How can you explain all the games drastically changing their win frequency and going weeks without being won, then suddenly all of them suddenly being won and resuming their previous frequencies in synchronicity? Do enlighten us with your reasonable and plausible "interpretation".

Ultimately we have published our findings and people can make up their own minds, agree or disagree. The important thing is that the information is out there and the public is informed. I don't care if it upsets Betsoft and Betcoin shills like yourself. At the moment all you're doing is attacking me and our study but providing no rational alternative explanation. Its a time honoured tactic of deflection used by people who have something to hide and nothing of value to say.

But as long as your relying on IGT as a reliable brand, haven't they had similar disputes?

Feel free to point out anywhere that I said any company was reliable. You can't because I didn't. I cited companies that were regarded as "major forces" within this industry, i.e. most well known and influential. I certainly don't regard many of the major industry players as reliable. My point was that these companies actually occupy the position that Betsoft are trying to paint themselves as equivalent to when it is not the case to anyone with any significant industry knowledge. I maintain that Betsoft are a third rate software supplier, predominantly used by low rent casinos.

The fact that you are able to point to a documented legal case involving IGT says a lot, both about the benefits of companies being accountable to a regulator in a properly enforced jurisdiction, and your own nature of clutching at straws that devalue your own arguments. What recourse does Jason have in his case? Which court can he go to to get justice? Who even owns and operates Betsoft and/or Betcoin? What is their company name, the name of their directors, their address of operation? For goodness sake, that is the worst argument you have presented yet.

You claim that Betsoft has a history of non-payment but I couldn't find a single case

Making a jackpot impossible to win is equivalent to non payment, wouldn't you agree? Either way, someone gets ripped off and doesn't get paid what they should. Don't be asinine.

And don't you think it's funny to place Betcoin on your blacklist for using Betsoft software when you yourself failed to blacklist the brand at the same time?

Betsoft are blacklisted. We have detailed the reasons why. As are Betcoin. What does it matter if one was placed before the other? Both are there because they deserve to be. Betsoft because of the many issues we raised and Betcoin because of their failure to pay their player, the continued use of Betsoft games even after they know one of their own customers has been cheated, and their documented history of running pirated games. I honestly don't understand what point you are trying to make on this, other than to again attack the messenger rather than the message. What is "funny" about us adding Betsoft to our blacklist a few days later than Betcoin? What exactly does that prove other than that I can be lazy and/or have many other things to do?

We are a site that reviews casinos and shares opinions. I am proud to be against software providers and casinos that rip players off. I would not have it any other way. If you think that is "bias" and that it is a bad thing then cool, I honestly think that you must be thick, but its your opinion nevertheless and you're entitled to it.

The evidence is suspicious under certain interpretation but it's not enough to ruin honest peoples careers without further evidence.

When you keep saying hyperbolic stuff like this it just looks more and more like you have significant skin in this game. Having a Betcoin logo in an effort to promote them is one thing but it appears to me that your involvement is more significant than that. I could not care less about anyone's career, and I'm not sure why you would care either unless you knew them, nor how you would know whether anyone was "honest" or not, unless you knew them. Do you think these "honest people" that you seem to know so well care about Jason or the legion of other players they cheated when they allowed games to be played with a jackpot that could not be won? You either don't know them and are lying, or you do know them and are not stating your conflict of interest. So which is it?

What more evidence do you need? If you have read and understood what has happened and are still not convinced that both Betsoft and Betcoin have serious trust issues and are better avoided, then nothing I can say or do will change your mind now. I would question your sanity and your reading comprehension though.

[CL-Ed]

Why are you still willing to take affiliate money from many of the casinos you promote that primarily offer Betsoft games when in fact you know the evidence is to damning with the Bovada situation that they rig the progressive games.

BTW, I'm thankful for all the work you put in with your investigations but its hypocritical to continue to promote the Betsoft crooks on your site with casinos still operating their shady software.

Firstly Trayber thank you for your appreciation of the ongoing time and effort that we put into this. I know that you guys think that we're making loads of money from casinos that "primarily offer Betsoft games" and therefore don't want to do anything about it. That is not the case at all. Did you not notice that we were the ones who tracked their jackpots, we were the ones who publicised the issues, we were the ones that publicly posted articles urging people to avoid their games, and now only a small number of other affiliates sites and casinos have taken note? If it were the case wouldn't it have been better for us to not do the study, not publicise the results, and not call Betsoft and Betcoin out on it? According to your logic, wouldn't we make more money by ignoring this whole thing? The proof is in the pudding and that weak argument does not stack up at all.

In fact, here's an exercise for you. Find me a casino that "primarily offers Betsoft games" that we have rated 4 stars or higher on our site (these are the ones that people mainly go to). Can we agree that "primarily" means at least 50% of the games in their casino? I would be surprised if you can find one. You can start here on our page that lists Betsoft casinos. Most of the highly rated ones on that list are multi-provider casinos which use a third party aggregator platform for their games (eg EveryMatrix), of which Betsoft would make up less than 5 or 10% of the games at a guess. The fact is that there are very few Betsoft-only casinos, and those that do exist are poor. Don't swallow Betsoft's marketing lies and be mislead by perhaps your own experience of crypto-only casinos, they are not the major player that they claim to be.

Now are there casinos reviewed on our site that have Betsoft games that we have not blacklisted? Yes there are, as you can see on that page. Have any of those been complicit in the ripping off a jackpot winner, have any been caught running fake or pirated games, have any been shown to be not paying winners? Not to our knowledge. For example, do I think Guts Casino is a rogue? No of course not, they have one of the best reputations in the industry, but I noted today while writing this that they are running Betsoft games. That both concerns and surprises me.

We have been speaking to people at various casinos about this and it is an ongoing issue but at the end of the day, we are a small group of people who neither have the time nor resources to chase up every casino and alert them to this issue and encourage them to remove the games. We release our information publicly and do what we can. We have informed the Curacao licensing authorities. I'm sure you can guess what their response was. We can only guess too, because we never got one. It would be great if people who are customers (or concerned members of the community like yourself Trayber) of casinos that still run their games stopped playing there and contacted them and told them why. That would be a lot more productive that coming here and bitching and moaning at one of the few people to have actually done anything about this situation. If it wasn't for us you would be blissful in your ignorance of the charade being perpetrated by Betsoft and Betcoin, and 99% of other industry sites have said and done nothing about this at all.

We have Pragmatic Play (a.k.a. TopGame) on our blacklist too, but in recent times some well-run multi-platform casinos have added their games to their selection and we have not blacklisted them either. Its not a simple situation and I honestly do not know the right answer. In the absence of a better solution we continue to warn people not to play games belonging to a rogue software provider, and we will gladly inform people of any casino that decides to remove their games like Bovada, Slots.lv, and SlotsMillion did. We are not unfairly "biased" against Betsoft as they have been treated the same as TopGame / PP. Take note of that Betsoft and Betcoin shills.

I do agree that we need to find a better way to deal with otherwise good casinos with a history of fair operation (like Guts for example) that start offering games from software providers like Betsoft and Pragmatic Play that we consider to be rogue. I have a few ideas and I am open to suggestions, of which obviously the first is to blacklist them all as you suggest. I had hoped that publicly shaming these companies would achieve more than it has and make that step unnecessary, but there you have it, we are where we are which is sadly a reflection of the priorities of most people in this industry.

[cjmoles]

Why are you still willing to take affiliate money from many of the casinos you promote that primarily offer Betsoft games when in fact you know the evidence is to damning with the Bovada situation that they rig the progressive games.

BTW, I'm thankful for all the work you put in with your investigations but its hypocritical to continue to promote the Betsoft crooks on your site with casinos still operating their shady software.

Firstly Trayber thank you for your appreciation of the ongoing time and effort that we put into this. I know that you guys think that we're making loads of money from casinos that "primarily offer Betsoft games" and therefore don't want to do anything about it. That is not the case at all. Did you not notice that we were the ones who tracked their jackpots, we were the ones who publicised the issues, we were the ones that publicly posted articles urging people to avoid their games, and now only a small number of other affiliates sites and casinos have taken note? If it were the case wouldn't it have been better for us to not do the study, not publicise the results, and not call Betsoft and Betcoin out on it? According to your logic, wouldn't we make more money by ignoring this whole thing? The proof is in the pudding and that weak argument does not stack up at all.

In fact, here's an exercise for you. Find me a casino that "primarily offers Betsoft games" that we have rated 4 stars or higher on our site (these are the ones that people mainly go to). Can we agree that "primarily" means at least 50% of the games in their casino? I would be surprised if you can find one. You can start here on our page that lists Betsoft casinos. Most of the highly rated ones on that list are multi-provider casinos which use a third party aggregator platform for their games (eg EveryMatrix), of which Betsoft would make up less than 5 or 10% of the games at a guess. The fact is that there are very few Betsoft-only casinos, and those that do exist are poor. Don't swallow Betsoft's marketing lies and be mislead by perhaps your own experience of crypto-only casinos, they are not the major player that they claim to be.

Now are there casinos reviewed on our site that have Betsoft games that we have not blacklisted? Yes there are, as you can see on that page. Have any of those been complicit in the ripping off a jackpot winner, have any been caught running fake or pirated games, have any been shown to be not paying winners? Not to our knowledge. For example, do I think Guts Casino is a rogue? No of course not, they have one of the best reputations in the industry, but I noted today while writing this that they are running Betsoft games. That both concerns and surprises me.

We have been speaking to people at various casinos about this and it is an ongoing issue but at the end of the day, we are a small group of people who neither have the time nor resources to chase up every casino and alert them to this issue and encourage them to remove the games. We release our information publicly and do what we can. We have informed the Curacao licensing authorities. I'm sure you can guess what their response was. We can only guess too, because we never got one. It would be great if people who are customers (or concerned members of the community like yourself Trayber) of casinos that still run their games stopped playing there and contacted them and told them why. That would be a lot more productive that coming here and bitching and moaning at one of the few people to have actually done anything about this situation. If it wasn't for us you would be blissful in your ignorance of the charade being perpetrated by Betsoft and Betcoin, and 99% of other industry sites have said and done nothing about this at all.

We have Pragmatic Play (a.k.a. TopGame) on our blacklist too, but in recent times some well-run multi-platform casinos have added their games to their selection and we have not blacklisted them either. Its not a simple situation and I honestly do not know the right answer. In the absence of a better solution we continue to warn people not to play games belonging to a rogue software provider, and we will gladly inform people of any casino that decides to remove their games like Bovada, Slots.lv, and SlotsMillion did. We are not unfairly "biased" against Betsoft as they have been treated the same as TopGame / PP. Take note of that Betsoft and Betcoin shills.

I do agree that we need to find a better way to deal with otherwise good casinos with a history of fair operation (like Guts for example) that start offering games from software providers like Betsoft and Pragmatic Play that we consider to be rogue. I have a few ideas and I am open to suggestions, of which obviously the first is to blacklist them all as you suggest. I had hoped that publicly shaming these companies would achieve more than it has and make that step unnecessary, but there you have it, we are where we are which is sadly a reflection of the priorities of most people in this industry.

It took all them words to answer that one question?  Let me write the response to the question you just wrote with fewer words:

Casinolistings makes money by driving traffic to their affiliates; many of their affiliates use Betsoft software, but it's too complicated for casinolistings to blacklist those sites because the evidence is inconclusive.  So, they start a campaign and blacklist the competition that uses Betsoft software instead because it helps drive traffic to their affiliated sites where the players they refer are safer?

Here's a question:  If you think that you have conclusive evidence that Betsoft has cheated and you're still getting paid to refer players to those sites that use the software, then why aren't you blacklisting yourself?  

Admit it....your statistical analysis was limited in scope and there are many ways the data could be interpreted, so you are not prepared to make a conclusive stand on your interpretation because it could cost you if you are wrong.  So, instead, you attack the competition because it's more rewarding and potentially less costly.  Right?

You, my friend, are wearing the hat of a shill....not me.  I trust the site where I play; you, on the other hand, make money off of poaching customers from the competition with your claims, then refer those customers to sites that use the same software you claim is cheating....what's wrong with that picture?

[CL-Ed]

So instead of answering the questions I gave you, you ignore my post to you completely then complain that my detailed and honest answer to Trayber was too long for your liking. Would you like me to draw you a nice children's book with large words and pictures next time?

It is clear that what I have said to you has struck a nerve and you have no comeback other than to try to question our integrity. Classic playing the man rather than the ball. The pathetic tactic of someone who has been defeated in an argument.

I'm still waiting for your reasonable alternative interpretation of our data on the Betsoft jackpots that you keep alluding to but refuse to provide. You offer nothing of substance to back up anything that you are saying. You are all fart and no poo.

Furthermore you are plainly a shill that is in the pocket of Betcoin, and anything that you say should be read with that in mind. How on earth you could still trust the site after the mountain of evidence that has been presented is beyond me. You either work for them or are deluded.

I have already answered all your questions including the one you have rephrased and posed several to you which you are clearly unable or unwilling to address. Until you do so I will not engage with you further. People can make up their own mind as to who is being honest and what their motivations are here.

[cjmoles]

So instead of answering the questions I gave you, you ignore my post to you completely then complain that my detailed and honest answer to Trayber was too long for your liking. Would you like me to draw you a nice children's book with large words and pictures next time?

It is clear that what I have said to you has struck a nerve and you have no comeback other than to try to question our integrity. Classic playing the man rather than the ball. The pathetic tactic of someone who has been defeated in an argument.

I'm still waiting for your reasonable alternative interpretation of our data on the Betsoft jackpots that you keep alluding to but refuse to provide. You offer nothing of substance to back up anything that you are saying. You are all fart and no poo.

Furthermore you are plainly a shill that is in the pocket of Betcoin, and anything that you say should be read with that in mind. How on earth you could still trust the site after the mountain of evidence that has been presented is beyond me. You either work for them or are deluded.


I have already answered all your questions including the one you have rephrased and posed several to you which you are clearly unable or unwilling to address. Until you do so I will not engage with you further. People can make up their own mind as to who is being honest and what their motivations are here.

Evidence?  You seen evidence?  I've been playing at Betcoin a long time and the evidence that you think you've witnessed must've been presented to you by Twitchy....is he on your team too?  The minor glitches that Twitchy keeps eluding to have all been found, fixed, and more then compensated for long ago.  Twitchy keeps twisting the truth, using multiple accounts to echo his claims, and spreading misinformation.  Nobody was cheated like he claims.....where are those who feel cheated but weren't compensated and where is their evidence?  

I will post an alternative interpretation on your website underneath your data for clarity maybe.  But, I'm sure that if you've taken any courses in statistics, a few possible alternative interpretations have already crossed your mind; otherwise, you would have blacklisted your affiliate casinos who still offer the services provided by Betsoft.  Right?  Do you think 9 months of subjective data is enough to render a conclusive picture of the variance involved in your interpretation?  Really?  And, somebody gave you a job?

[TwitchySeal]

Before anyone take cjmoles too seriously, take a look at how he defends Betsoft in this thread https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1554617.40

https://archive.is/0YCGP (archived in case he goes back to edit/delete)

The truth will prevail.  Scumbags like cjmoles can slow it down, not stop it.

[marlais]

Out of curiosity, how many satoshis per post does Betcoin pay people to have Betcoin's ad in their forum signature? He's probably well on his way to getting an item off the dollar menu just for being a contrarian.

[TwitchySeal]

Out of curiosity, how many satoshis per post does Betcoin pay people to have Betcoin's ad in their forum signature? He's probably well on his way to getting an item off the dollar menu just for being a contrarian.

Betcoin pays 6-7BTC per month to their 45-55 members.

They pay more than any other campaign. (I think)

The only reason ognasty and a majority of their members is a member is bc of the money. (I know)

It's disgusting and needs to be stopped.


(on my phone, do the math - I will share more detailed info tomorrow or thurs)

[TwitchySeal]

Responding here to cjmoles post in the [Beware] TwitchySeal: Abuses his Rep, replies to his own posts with alts, etc thread.

-snip-
If the jackpot cannot be won on a "free spin," then it is only right to specify that point for the players who don't realize it.
-snip-

No player should "realize it" if it's not written anywhere. 

-snip-
If the rules were not clarified, then people who don't understand the difference between "free" and "maximum" would still think that "free spins" qualify under the only "max bet wager" qualifies rule, by extension, when they actually don't.  All of it is coded into the software....
-snip-

Jason bet the maximum.  The result of his maximum wager was free spins.  These freespins pay out based on the ammount of the wager that triggered them.  (in this case, the maximum)  At no point was jason given the option to bet more.  If he had been, and he decided not to bet as much as he could, then he would not be eligible for the jackpot (according to the rules at the time).  That's not what happened though.  He bet the maximum.

if "free spins" did qualify as a maximum bet, then the jackpot would've dropped because it would've been coded into the software....but it wasn't coded into the software because free spins don't qualify, so the jackpot didn't drop.

I somewhat agree with you hear.  All things considered, it's pretty hard to draw any conclusion other than the software is coded so that  large jackpots like this one simply can not be won. 

And, whoever said Betcoin changed the timestamp is lying because the opposite was true....they completely overlooked the timestamp.

No, they changed the time stamp.
The problem is, they didn't change it until after I called them out for changing their terms in June 2016 without telling players and leaving the "last updated Jan 2015"

Weeks later they claimed it was an accident.  Considering their history. there's only a tiny chance that they aren't lying, in my opinion.

The rules were not changed; they were clarified for those who didn't understand them which was the right thing to do, not the wrong thing to do. 

They added a rule about not being able to win the Jackpot during freespins.  This was a change.

Do you also believe that the rules were clear enough to avoid clarifying that point?  Should they have left them the way they were or does it help to have them clarified?

The rules are not clear enough.  They need to clarify where these jackpots are receiving funds from/which sites they can be won at.  They need to clarify what happens when a jackpot is won: does the player receive the whole thing?  How do they seed the new jackpot?  What are the odds of hitting a jackpot?  Do the chances vary from denomination to denomination? 

If they don't want the jackpot to be eligible during free spins, that's  fine.  But it's not fine to add this rule and enforce it retroactively.  I believe they only did this because they do not consdier that 500BTC jackpot as money the players are entitled to.  They believe they have no intention of paying that BTC500 jackpot.

1)  "Greedy Goblins" is not the game in question as you are claiming; the game in question is called, "The Glam Life."

2)  You are right....the jackpot cannot be won on "The Glam Life" during free spins because free spins do not qualify as max bet wagers as stated in the game's rules and coded into the software.

3)  Jumping from the rules as stated in one game, re-interpreting them to fit your argument, and then applying that interpretation to a totally different game with a different set of conditions IS a great leap in logic.

I was using Greedy Goblins to prove that the possibility of winning a Progressive Jackpots during a freespin or bonus round is nothing out of the ordinary.  There is no "unspoken rule" that Progressive Jackpots can't be won if your other-wise qualifying bet results in multiple "spins" or a bonus round.  In fact, it's quite common. 

Unless otherwise noted, if a player makes a bet and triggers "freespins"  they should expect these "freespins" to payout based on their initial wager. 

It's interesting to see cjmoles is now making a very similiar argument that Betcoin made right off the bat:

Betsoft has been doing this for well over 10 years servicing the top online casinos in the industry. You would have the same answer on any other casino. We have dealt with this before that is why I mentioned it in my first reply despite the fact that you did not mention it was a bonus round. They have also dealt with this many times before, but most players understand that it is a bonus or free round and there are different outcomes because of that.

The point is this isn't the first time this has happened. Most people understand this clearly and move on especially due to the fact that it is a bonus round and you can't even bet the max that qualifies for the jackpot.

Interesting change of tune from this:

What can we do to make sure jasonort gets what he is owed.  Betsoft needs to be held accountable!  Maybe Betsoft, and any of it's supporters, should be blacklisted from the market!  I personally trust betcoin.ag and Bodog (Bovada), but Betsoft needs to be dealt with in a strong handed manner....In fact, I'm feeling cheated now too and I want all the money back that I've spent playing on their software chasing those progressives! <--Not that I believe that would ever happen, but for jasonort, what can we do to put the hurt on these thieves?

Just got an Email from Bovada and they are disabling all their Betsoft games until they can figure out what to do about the problems with the Betsoft software.  They're acknowledging there's a problem and they are investigating the situation.

Betcoin has over 70 individual progressive Jackpots totalling around 3,000 bitcoin (almost 2 million USD).

Assuming the jackpots are listed in the number of credits at that specific denomination...
The two highest denom jackpots for Glam Life account for more than 80% of the combined value of all Betcoins 70+ progressives.
These two jackpots are currently worth BTC 2,520.5205  (about $1,490,000)
503.6385BTC for the .5 denom and  2,016.882BTC for 1 denom

In the past 37 days, the .5 denom jackpot has grown by BTC0.002
The BTC2,016.882 Glam Life 1 denom jackpot has not grown in the past 37 days.

If you compare the jackpots at other sites (specifically the GETJACKPOT ping response from Betsoft servers) they are not linked.
For example the same two Glam Life .5 and 1 denom jackpots above are worth over BTC500 more for a total of BTC3,025.002 on Bitcasino.io 

It's pretty clear the same thing is happening at Bitcoin casinos that was discovered about Bovada slots in this thread, as in many Betsoft Jackpots are simply "turned off".  As in, they continue to collect 1% (or 2% in some cases) and contribute it to the  "jackpot" but only the smaller jackpots have any possibility of being hit.  As in, Betsoft is stealing from their affiliates based on this 1 or 2% and lying to the everyone about prize that can not be won.

JasonOrt has given up on his 500BTC jackpot long ago.  His case and the way it was handled is just another example of the current pathetic state of Betcoin and Bitcoin gaming in general. 

[cjmoles]

Responding here to cjmoles post in the [Beware] TwitchySeal: Abuses his Rep, replies to his own posts with alts, etc thread.

-snip-
If the jackpot cannot be won on a "free spin," then it is only right to specify that point for the players who don't realize it.
-snip-

No player should "realize it" if it's not written anywhere. 

-snip-
If the rules were not clarified, then people who don't understand the difference between "free" and "maximum" would still think that "free spins" qualify under the only "max bet wager" qualifies rule, by extension, when they actually don't.  All of it is coded into the software....
-snip-

Jason bet the maximum.  The result of his maximum wager was free spins.  These freespins pay out based on the ammount of the wager that triggered them.  (in this case, the maximum)  At no point was jason given the option to bet more.  If he had been, and he decided not to bet as much as he could, then he would not be eligible for the jackpot (according to the rules at the time).  That's not what happened though.  He bet the maximum.

if "free spins" did qualify as a maximum bet, then the jackpot would've dropped because it would've been coded into the software....but it wasn't coded into the software because free spins don't qualify, so the jackpot didn't drop.

I somewhat agree with you hear.  All things considered, it's pretty hard to draw any conclusion other than the software is coded so that  large jackpots like this one simply can not be won. 

And, whoever said Betcoin changed the timestamp is lying because the opposite was true....they completely overlooked the timestamp.

No, they changed the time stamp.
The problem is, they didn't change it until after I called them out for changing their terms in June 2016 without telling players and leaving the "last updated Jan 2015"

Weeks later they claimed it was an accident.  Considering their history. there's only a tiny chance that they aren't lying, in my opinion.

The rules were not changed; they were clarified for those who didn't understand them which was the right thing to do, not the wrong thing to do. 

They added a rule about not being able to win the Jackpot during freespins.  This was a change.

Do you also believe that the rules were clear enough to avoid clarifying that point?  Should they have left them the way they were or does it help to have them clarified?

The rules are not clear enough.  They need to clarify where these jackpots are receiving funds from/which sites they can be won at.  They need to clarify what happens when a jackpot is won: does the player receive the whole thing?  How do they seed the new jackpot?  What are the odds of hitting a jackpot?  Do the chances vary from denomination to denomination? 

If they don't want the jackpot to be eligible during free spins, that's  fine.  But it's not fine to add this rule and enforce it retroactively.  I believe they only did this because they do not consdier that 500BTC jackpot as money the players are entitled to.  They believe they have no intention of paying that BTC500 jackpot.

1)  "Greedy Goblins" is not the game in question as you are claiming; the game in question is called, "The Glam Life."

2)  You are right....the jackpot cannot be won on "The Glam Life" during free spins because free spins do not qualify as max bet wagers as stated in the game's rules and coded into the software.

3)  Jumping from the rules as stated in one game, re-interpreting them to fit your argument, and then applying that interpretation to a totally different game with a different set of conditions IS a great leap in logic.

I was using Greedy Goblins to prove that the possibility of winning a Progressive Jackpots during a freespin or bonus round is nothing out of the ordinary.  There is no "unspoken rule" that Progressive Jackpots can't be won if your other-wise qualifying bet results in multiple "spins" or a bonus round.  In fact, it's quite common. 

Unless otherwise noted, if a player makes a bet and triggers "freespins"  they should expect these "freespins" to payout based on their initial wager. 

It's interesting to see cjmoles is now making a very similiar argument that Betcoin made right off the bat:

Betsoft has been doing this for well over 10 years servicing the top online casinos in the industry. You would have the same answer on any other casino. We have dealt with this before that is why I mentioned it in my first reply despite the fact that you did not mention it was a bonus round. They have also dealt with this many times before, but most players understand that it is a bonus or free round and there are different outcomes because of that.

The point is this isn't the first time this has happened. Most people understand this clearly and move on especially due to the fact that it is a bonus round and you can't even bet the max that qualifies for the jackpot.

Interesting change of tune from this:

What can we do to make sure jasonort gets what he is owed.  Betsoft needs to be held accountable!  Maybe Betsoft, and any of it's supporters, should be blacklisted from the market!  I personally trust betcoin.ag and Bodog (Bovada), but Betsoft needs to be dealt with in a strong handed manner....In fact, I'm feeling cheated now too and I want all the money back that I've spent playing on their software chasing those progressives! <--Not that I believe that would ever happen, but for jasonort, what can we do to put the hurt on these thieves?

Just got an Email from Bovada and they are disabling all their Betsoft games until they can figure out what to do about the problems with the Betsoft software.  They're acknowledging there's a problem and they are investigating the situation.

Betcoin has over 70 individual progressive Jackpots totalling around 3,000 bitcoin (almost 2 million USD).

Assuming the jackpots are listed in the number of credits at that specific denomination...
The two highest denom jackpots for Glam Life account for more than 80% of the combined value of all Betcoins 70+ progressives.
These two jackpots are currently worth BTC 2,520.5205  (about $1,490,000)
503.6385BTC for the .5 denom and  2,016.882BTC for 1 denom

In the past 37 days, the .5 denom jackpot has grown by BTC0.002
The BTC2,016.882 Glam Life 1 denom jackpot has not grown in the past 37 days.

If you compare the jackpots at other sites (specifically the GETJACKPOT ping response from Betsoft servers) they are not linked.
For example the same two Glam Life .5 and 1 denom jackpots above are worth over BTC500 more for a total of BTC3,025.002 on Bitcasino.io 

It's pretty clear the same thing is happening at Bitcoin casinos that was discovered about Bovada slots in this thread, as in many Betsoft Jackpots are simply "turned off".  As in, they continue to collect 1% (or 2% in some cases) and contribute it to the  "jackpot" but only the smaller jackpots have any possibility of being hit.  As in, Betsoft is stealing from their affiliates based on this 1 or 2% and lying to the everyone about prize that can not be won.

JasonOrt has given up on his 500BTC jackpot long ago.  His case and the way it was handled is just another example of the current pathetic state of Betcoin and Bitcoin gaming in general. 

Yes, my stance did change once Betsoft resolved the issue with jasonort and after I looked at all the details, and realized that I was being manipulated with inaccurate information. I don't like cheaters or thieves just as much as the next person and probably more....but liars and false accusers are just as bad.  I'll stand up for those who are cheated, but I don't like being manipulated with false information to attack honest people to satisfy other people's perverted agendas.  Believe me, I've done thorough research on the subject and I am no slouch when it comes to probability, normal distribution, or variance, nor am I a slouch when it comes to statistical analysis and legal research.  I don't have all this free time to engage in weird debates, gamble, and do whatever I feel like because I'm dumb and poor....I earned my bones in life and I have more than I could ever possibly use as a result....No, I'm here because I believe in this stuff....I'm no bum hunter....I've been around the game a lot longer then you realize.

[TwitchySeal]

Yes, my stance did change once Betsoft resolved the issue with jasonort and after I looked at all the details, and realized that I was being manipulated with inaccurate information. I don't like cheaters or thieves just as much as the next person and probably more....but liars and false accusers are just as bad.  I'll stand up for those who are cheated, but I don't like being manipulated with false information to attack honest people to satisfy other people's perverted agendas.  Believe me, I've done thorough research on the subject and I am no slouch when it comes to probability, normal distribution, or variance, nor am I a slouch when it comes to statistical analysis and legal research.  I don't have all this free time to engage in weird debates, gamble, and do whatever I feel like because I'm dumb and poor....I earned my bones in life and I have more than I could ever possibly use as a result....No, I'm here because I believe in this stuff....I'm no bum hunter....I've been around the game a lot longer then you realize.

Impressive.

[game-protect]

I would like the forums opinion on whether I should have won the jackpot. -snip-

Of course did you win the Jackpot!

Your original bet was a max bet. Then you won 4 max bets with the 3 airplanes on 2 paylines and each of the 4 free spins are technically a max bet.

The slot do not run without a bet and whether you paid directly or won the 4 max bets does not play any role for to be eligible for the Jackpot.



-> "Jackpot cannot be multiplied" confirms that Jackpots are eligible during free spins. They can not be multiplied, but they are clearly eligible!

Betcoin.ag is of course saying that BetSoft is to blame.  Who can I dispute this with?

Did you sign a contract with Betsoft? If not, then betcoin.ag would be your contract partner.

If you buy a car, the seller is your contract partner and not the producer or software provider!

I said betcoin.ag would be your contract partner, because there is no juridical valid contract between you and the domain betcoin.ag or however they call it. So from a juridical point of view, you can consider everything you get from Betcoin as a gift.

If you would know who the operator of Betcoin is, then you could sue them in the applicable jurisdiction...  

[actmyname]

Yes, my stance did change once Betsoft resolved the issue with jasonort and after I looked at all the details, and realized that I was being manipulated with inaccurate information.

What information was inaccurate? Betcoin's, right? Because they only implemented the rule about max bets after jasonort began to complain.

I don't like cheaters or thieves just as much as the next person and probably more....but liars and false accusers are just as bad.  I'll stand up for those who are cheated, but I don't like being manipulated with false information to attack honest people to satisfy other people's perverted agendas.

Are you talking about Twitchy? Because from what we've already seen in the past, Betcoin altered the ToS without changing the "Last updated" date to try and stealthily sneak in some rules. That's a serious problem.

Believe me, I've done thorough research on the subject and I am no slouch when it comes to probability, normal distribution, or variance, nor am I a slouch when it comes to statistical analysis and legal research.

I don't have all this free time to engage in weird debates, gamble, and do whatever I feel like because I'm dumb and poor....

https://www.casinolistings.com/forum/gambling/online-casinos/28043/questioning-betsoft-jackpots?page=1

You can look at those pretty pictures if you don't have time. They show clear problems with BetSoft, and in no way did Betcoin determine at all that there was a problem with them. Even going out of their way to try and make it seem like jasonort didn't fulfill the requirements for the jackpot.

I earned my bones in life and I have more than I could ever possibly use as a result....No, I'm here because I believe in this stuff....I'm no bum hunter....I've been around the game a lot longer then you realize.

If you have more than you could possibly use, then you won't need a signature campaign, right? After all, you've earned enough. You can gamble with everything you've earned in the past.

[cjmoles]

Yes, my stance did change once Betsoft resolved the issue with jasonort and after I looked at all the details, and realized that I was being manipulated with inaccurate information.

What information was inaccurate? Betcoin's, right? Because they only implemented the rule about max bets after jasonort began to complain.

No, Twitchy lied to you there too....The max bet rules have always been there.  It is a pretty established and well known fact to the regulars that play progressives that a max bet is required to qualify. Twitchy can only confuse the uninformed, which he's good at....

I don't like cheaters or thieves just as much as the next person and probably more....but liars and false accusers are just as bad.  I'll stand up for those who are cheated, but I don't like being manipulated with false information to attack honest people to satisfy other people's perverted agendas.

Are you talking about Twitchy? Because from what we've already seen in the past, Betcoin altered the ToS without changing the "Last updated" date to try and stealthily sneak in some rules. That's a serious problem.

The complaint was already submitted, recorded, and was being negotiated so there was no retroactive manipulation.  The rules needed to be clarified so that nobody else would think that "maximum" meant "free."  Do you think that they shouldn't have clarified the rules? kept them they way they were because they were already perfectly clear? I do.

Believe me, I've done thorough research on the subject and I am no slouch when it comes to probability, normal distribution, or variance, nor am I a slouch when it comes to statistical analysis and legal research.

I don't have all this free time to engage in weird debates, gamble, and do whatever I feel like because I'm dumb and poor....

https://www.casinolistings.com/forum/gambling/online-casinos/28043/questioning-betsoft-jackpots?page=1

You can look at those pretty pictures if you don't have time. They show clear problems with BetSoft, and in no way did Betcoin determine at all that there was a problem with them. Even going out of their way to try and make it seem like jasonort didn't fulfill the requirements for the jackpot.

If you graduated high school statistics then you'd realize that you need more than pretty pictures to draw an accurate conclusion....casinolisting's study is grossly flawed.  The game they're looking at, "Good Girl, Bad Girl" is designed to function within those distribution frequencies....If you dig a little deeper, you'd realize that it's not like other games....the jackpots are mutually exclusive by design. And, if you look a little deeper than that, you'll find that there aren't too many others outside of the casinolistings affiliate program who take their flawed study very seriously.  Here look at the game: http://casinogamesonnet.com/?game=good-girl-bad-girl&id=742 THE JACKPOTS ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE BY DESIGN!

I earned my bones in life and I have more than I could ever possibly use as a result....No, I'm here because I believe in this stuff....I'm no bum hunter....I've been around the game a lot longer then you realize.

If you have more than you could possibly use, then you won't need a signature campaign, right? After all, you've earned enough. You can gamble with everything you've earned in the past.

You are absolutely correct. I don't need a signature campaign....I do this because I believe in bitcoin and Betcoin.ag poker.  I am tired of my government telling me that I can't spend my own money to play poker online, period. And, I will promote the hell out of honest bitcoin poker sites like Betcoin.ag....I don't care what all the pro-regulatory shills have to say about it. I need an honest place to play poker without third party interference and Betcoin.ag is the only site that meets those requirements.

Red Font added by me in the above for brevity.

EDIT: To combine responses for brevity.

I would like the forums opinion on whether I should have won the jackpot. -snip-

Of course did you win the Jackpot!

Your original bet was a max bet. Then you won 4 max bets with the 3 airplanes on 2 paylines and each of the 4 free spins are technically a max bet.

The slot do not run without a bet and whether you paid directly or won the 4 max bets does not play any role for to be eligible for the Jackpot.



-> "Jackpot cannot be multiplied" confirms that Jackpots are eligible during free spins. They can not be multiplied, but they are clearly eligible!

Betcoin.ag is of course saying that BetSoft is to blame.  Who can I dispute this with?

Did you sign a contract with Betsoft? If not, then betcoin.ag would be your contract partner.

If you buy a car, the seller is your contract partner and not the producer or software provider!

I said betcoin.ag would be your contract partner, because there is no juridical valid contract between you and the domain betcoin.ag or however they call it. So from a juridical point of view, you can consider everything you get from Betcoin as a gift.

If you would know who the operator of Betcoin is, then you could sue them in the applicable jurisdiction...  

This guy is manipulating the truth again.  The image above is not associated with the game in question....He is lying!  The game in question was called "The Glam Life" and if you look closely, you'll find that there is no "Elfania sign"  in the "The Glam Life."

[actmyname]

I would like the forums opinion on whether I should have won the jackpot. -snip-

Of course did you win the Jackpot!

Your original bet was a max bet. Then you won 4 max bets with the 3 airplanes on 2 paylines and each of the 4 free spins are technically a max bet.

The slot do not run without a bet and whether you paid directly or won the 4 max bets does not play any role for to be eligible for the Jackpot.



-> "Jackpot cannot be multiplied" confirms that Jackpots are eligible during free spins. They can not be multiplied, but they are clearly eligible!

Betcoin.ag is of course saying that BetSoft is to blame.  Who can I dispute this with?

Did you sign a contract with Betsoft? If not, then betcoin.ag would be your contract partner.

If you buy a car, the seller is your contract partner and not the producer or software provider!

I said betcoin.ag would be your contract partner, because there is no juridical valid contract between you and the domain betcoin.ag or however they call it. So from a juridical point of view, you can consider everything you get from Betcoin as a gift.

If you would know who the operator of Betcoin is, then you could sue them in the applicable jurisdiction...  

This guy is manipulating the truth again.  The image above is not associated with the game in question....He is lying!  The game in question was called "The Glam Life" and if you look closely, you'll find that there is no "Elfania" symbol in the "The Glam Life."

Instead of double posting for the campaign, why not edit the two into one post?
Ah, but that's right! You need those precious cents!

EDIT: Looks like you've finally followed some advice!

The fact of the matter is not the game. That's irrelevant. They don't include the exclusivity rule of jackpots on max bet there. In fact, the red message in there means that the jackpot can be won in the Free Spins mode, as it's under that topic.

Hence their Terms of Service conflict with that very reality: "Only real money rounds qualify for the jackpot bonuses."
http://archive.is/XcDrD

You can see yourself. Please, tell me why this would happen. After all, you're so knowledgeable.

[cjmoles]

I would like the forums opinion on whether I should have won the jackpot. -snip-

Of course did you win the Jackpot!

Your original bet was a max bet. Then you won 4 max bets with the 3 airplanes on 2 paylines and each of the 4 free spins are technically a max bet.

The slot do not run without a bet and whether you paid directly or won the 4 max bets does not play any role for to be eligible for the Jackpot.



-> "Jackpot cannot be multiplied" confirms that Jackpots are eligible during free spins. They can not be multiplied, but they are clearly eligible!

Betcoin.ag is of course saying that BetSoft is to blame.  Who can I dispute this with?

Did you sign a contract with Betsoft? If not, then betcoin.ag would be your contract partner.

If you buy a car, the seller is your contract partner and not the producer or software provider!

I said betcoin.ag would be your contract partner, because there is no juridical valid contract between you and the domain betcoin.ag or however they call it. So from a juridical point of view, you can consider everything you get from Betcoin as a gift.

If you would know who the operator of Betcoin is, then you could sue them in the applicable jurisdiction...  

This guy is manipulating the truth again.  The image above is not associated with the game in question....He is lying!  The game in question was called "The Glam Life" and if you look closely, you'll find that there is no "Elfania" symbol in the "The Glam Life."

Instead of double posting for the campaign, why not edit the two into one post?
Ah, but that's right! You need those precious cents!


EDIT: Looks like you've finally followed some advice!

The fact of the matter is not the game. That's irrelevant. They don't include the exclusivity rule of jackpots on max bet there. In fact, the red message in there means that the jackpot can be won in the Free Spins mode, as it's under that topic.

No....the red message means that the "jackpot cannot be multiplied" because that's what it states but, again, that is not even the same game that was played.

Hence their Terms of Service conflict with that very reality: "Only real money rounds qualify for the jackpot bonuses."
http://archive.is/XcDrD

Why, do you think that play money rounds should qualify for jackpot bonuses?

You can see yourself. Please, tell me why this would happen. After all, you're so knowledgeable.

It is relevant.  It is not truthful to pretend that the rules for one game ("Greedy Goblins") apply to another totally different game ("The Glam Life") which has its own rules.  The fact is that only max bet spins qualify for the jackpot as was specified in the rules of the real game played "The Glam Life" and free spins are not max bet spins because "maximum" and "free" have antithetical definitions.  Maximum: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/maximum  Free: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/free

See, when one knowingly bases their own information on information that is demonstrably false, then their own conclusions are already demonstrably false.  

[actmyname]

It is relevant.  It is not truthful to pretend that the rules for one game ("Greedy Goblins") apply to another totally different game ("The Glam Life") which has its own rules.  The fact is that only max bet spins qualify for the jackpot as was specified in the rules of the REAL game "The Glam Life" and free spins are not max bet spins because "maximum" and "free" have antithetical definitions.  Maximum: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/maximum  Free: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/free

See, when one knowingly bases their own information on information that is demonstrably false, then their own conclusions are already demonstrably false. 

"Only real money rounds qualify for the jackpot bonuses" was Betcoin's phrasing to attempt to solidify their argument of "free spins do not award jackpots".

They have that in the sentence prior: "Bonus round and free spins do not qualify for the jackpot bonuses"

So, if the terms don't coincide with the game rules, then certainly there's a problem. Which one takes precedence?

My arguments have had nothing to do with Glam Life, by the way. I was only arguing about the Terms of Service and the game information. By linking these two, you clearly haven't fully understood what I was stating.

[game-protect]

It is relevant.  It is not truthful to pretend that the rules for one game ("Greedy Goblins") apply to another totally different game ("The Glam Life") which has its own rules.  The fact is that only max bet spins qualify for the jackpot as was specified in the rules of the REAL game "The Glam Life" and free spins are not max bet spins because "maximum" and "free" have antithetical definitions.  Maximum: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/maximum  Free: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/free

See, when one knowingly bases their own information on information that is demonstrably false, then their own conclusions are already demonstrably false.

The spins were free for him because he won them, but they were still max bets, otherwise he would have not get the 1000 credits...

This guy is manipulating the truth again.  The image above is not associated with the game in question....He is lying!  The game in question was called "The Glam Life" and if you look closely, you'll find that there is no "Elfania sign"  in the "The Glam Life."

This is because you do not know what logic is! If Elfania free spins qualify for the Jackpot, then The Glam Life or any other similiar spin game qualify as well for it. It is as simple as that.

As I already explained to you, Betcoin has no juridical valid Terms of Service, but now we have at least a picture that confirims that free spins are eligible for Jackpots.

[TwitchySeal]

What information was inaccurate? Betcoin's, right? Because they only implemented the rule about max bets after jasonort began to complain.

No, Twitchy lied to you there too....

Please stop making shit up about me.

The max bet rule didn't change. 
They added the following to their terms:

"Bonus round and free spins do not qualify for the jackpot bonuses pursuant to casino software provider rules. Only real money rounds qualify for the jackpot bonuses."

These "software provider rules" that disqualify Jackpots during bonus rounds and freespins are not made public and likely don't actually exist.
Of course, it's tough to prove this when Betcoin ignores anyone who asks and Betsoft has a policy of not communicating with players.
I suspect whoever wrote this new term doesn't realize that many of their progressive jackpots can only be won during a bonus round.

Betcoin altered the ToS without changing the "Last updated" date to try and stealthily sneak in some rules. That's a serious problem.

The complaint was already submitted, recorded, and was being negotiated so there was no retroactive manipulation.  The rules needed to be clarified so that nobody else would think that "maximum" meant "free."  

JasonOrt satisfied all requirements for the progressive jackpot according to the rules at the time.
They changed the rules retroactively and did not pay him the jackpot.

Maximum means the greatest or highest amount possible.  JasonOrt bet highest amount possible for the denomination specific jackpot.  In other words, he bet the maximum.

I don't have all this free time to engage in weird debates, gamble, and do whatever I feel like because I'm dumb and poor....

Just because you're dumb and poor now doesn't mean you will be forever.  I believe you are capable of creating a less dumb future for yourself where you enjoy a less poor lifestyle.  I hope you do.


https://www.casinolistings.com/forum/gambling/online-casinos/28043/questioning-betsoft-jackpots?page=1

"Good Girl, Bad Girl" is designed to function within those distribution frequencies

When you make a claim like this, you should explain how you know it to be true.   Otherwise, it would be silly for anyone to believe you.

....If you dig a little deeper, you'd realize that it's not like other games....the jackpots are mutually exclusive by design.

Each denomination has 2 independent jackpots.  You can't win them both in a single spin.  This means they are mutually exclusive.
Is that what you meant?  I think you might be confused.

It's really nothing unique for a game to offer multiple proggressive jackpots.  Most of the time, these jackpots are "mutually exclusive". It's just another way of saying you can't win more than one jackpot in a spin. 

At the copa offers 3 progressives.  You can't win more than one in a single spin. They are mutually exclusive.
PartyPoker offers "The BigOne" slots.  It's 5 independant progressives.  You can't win more than one in a single spin.  They are mutually exclusive.
Any time you see a "Mini" "Medium" "Max" type progressive game, they are almost always mutually exclusive.

 Here look at the game: http://casinogamesonnet.com/?game=good-girl-bad-girl&id=742 THE JACKPOTS ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE BY DESIGN!

lol^^^

[cjmoles]

It is relevant.  It is not truthful to pretend that the rules for one game ("Greedy Goblins") apply to another totally different game ("The Glam Life") which has its own rules.  The fact is that only max bet spins qualify for the jackpot as was specified in the rules of the REAL game "The Glam Life" and free spins are not max bet spins because "maximum" and "free" have antithetical definitions.  Maximum: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/maximum  Free: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/free

See, when one knowingly bases their own information on information that is demonstrably false, then their own conclusions are already demonstrably false.  

"Only real money rounds qualify for the jackpot bonuses" was Betcoin's phrasing to attempt to solidify their argument of "free spins do not award jackpots".

They have that in the sentence prior: "Bonus round and free spins do not qualify for the jackpot bonuses"

So, if the terms don't coincide with the game rules, then certainly there's a problem. Which one takes precedence?

My arguments have had nothing to do with Glam Life, by the way. I was only arguing about the Terms of Service and the game information. By linking these two, you clearly haven't fully understood what I was stating.

The terms state: "Bonus round and free spins do not qualify for the jackpot bonuses pursuant to casino software provider rules. Only real money rounds qualify for the jackpot bonuses."  This--> "Bonus round and free spins do not qualify for the jackpot bonuses" and this -->"Only real money rounds qualify for the jackpot bonuses" are not opposing clauses.

Free spins never qualified for the jackpot, in "The Glam Life;" otherwise, the jackpot would have dropped when the combination was hit on the free spin. If free spins don't qualify, shouldn't that be clarified for the player who doesn't understand the difference between "max" and "free" and the mechanisms that link the two to avoid future confusion?  

Look: "only max bet spins qualify for the jackpot."  "Only," is a big word in law and logic.  However, this is what the affiliate shills are trying to demonstrate that clause means: "only max bet spins, but sometimes free spins, qualify for the jackpot," but the word "only" actually really means "only"....it is exclusionary, not inclusionary.

But, this is my point....the affiliate shills, the competitor shills, and the pro-regulatory shills are manipulating the truth, confusing the facts, and recruiting the ignorant to  further their own perverted agendas.

It is relevant.  It is not truthful to pretend that the rules for one game ("Greedy Goblins") apply to another totally different game ("The Glam Life") which has its own rules.  The fact is that only max bet spins qualify for the jackpot as was specified in the rules of the REAL game "The Glam Life" and free spins are not max bet spins because "maximum" and "free" have antithetical definitions.  Maximum: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/maximum  Free: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/free

See, when one knowingly bases their own information on information that is demonstrably false, then their own conclusions are already demonstrably false.

The spins were free for him because he won them, but they were still max bets, otherwise he would have not get the 1000 credits...max "award" and max "bet" are opposites.

He bet nothing on the spins that were "free" that's what "free" means, costs nothing, no risk, no bet.  A "max bet" implies a max risk, thus the word "bet."  There is no risk in something that is free.  That's why the rules stipulated that "only max bet spins qualify for the jackpot"....it literally meant that "only max bet spins qualify for the jackpot."  It is not hard to understand for most that "maximum" and "free" have opposite meanings.  If the spins didn't cost anything then he wasn't betting anything and, therefore, he couldn't lose anything because it was not a bet.

This guy is manipulating the truth again.  The image above is not associated with the game in question....He is lying!  The game in question was called "The Glam Life" and if you look closely, you'll find that there is no "Elfania sign"  in the "The Glam Life."

This is because you do not know what logic is! If Elfania free spins qualify for the Jackpot, then The Glam Life or any other similiar spin game qualify as well. it is as simple as that.

Hah! I don't know what logic is?  Shut up stupid! Stop trying to cover up your obvious attempt at deception by appealing to logic.  Why do the games have different rules, then? Do you really think that your lies are being believed....You guys aren't going to find too many people to rip-off here because I would hope that this group is a little more intelligent than those you're used to scamming.


As I already explained to you, Betcoin has no juridical valid Terms of Service, but now we have at least a picture that confirims that free spins are eligible for Jackpots.

The only thing confirmed here is that you are a sorry example of a scam artist.

Red font added by me in the above for brevity.

[actmyname]

The terms state: "Bonus round and free spins do not qualify for the jackpot bonuses pursuant to casino software provider rules. Only real money rounds qualify for the jackpot bonuses."  This--> "Bonus round and free spins do not qualify for the jackpot bonuses" and this -->"Only real money rounds qualify for the jackpot bonuses" are not opposing clauses.

Free spins never qualified for the jackpot, in "The Glam Life;" otherwise, the jackpot would have dropped when the combination was hit on the free spin. If free spins don't qualify, shouldn't that be clarified for the player who doesn't understand the difference between "max" and "free" and the mechanisms that link the two to avoid future confusion? 

Look: "only max bet spins qualify for the jackpot."  "Only," is a big word in law and logic.  However, this is what the affiliate shills are trying to demonstrate that clause means: "only max bet spins, but sometimes free spins, qualify for the jackpot," but the word "only" actually really means "only"....it is exclusionary, not inclusionary.

But, this is my point....the affiliate shills, the competitor shills, and the pro-regulatory shills are manipulating the truth, confusing the facts, and recruiting the ignorant to  further their own perverted agendas.

Yet again you fail to see my point. The game rules for Greedy Goblins shows that the jackpot can be won with a freeroll. There is the sentence, "Note: JACKPOT CANNOT BE MULTIPLIED" under the freeroll section. The terms of service, however, state that, "Bonus round and free spins do not qualify for the jackpot bonuses". Hence, the game rules are contradictory with the Terms of Service. What is so hard to understand about this?

[ajareselde]

The terms state: "Bonus round and free spins do not qualify for the jackpot bonuses pursuant to casino software provider rules. Only real money rounds qualify for the jackpot bonuses."  This--> "Bonus round and free spins do not qualify for the jackpot bonuses" and this -->"Only real money rounds qualify for the jackpot bonuses" are not opposing clauses.

Free spins never qualified for the jackpot, in "The Glam Life;" otherwise, the jackpot would have dropped when the combination was hit on the free spin. If free spins don't qualify, shouldn't that be clarified for the player who doesn't understand the difference between "max" and "free" and the mechanisms that link the two to avoid future confusion?  

Look: "only max bet spins qualify for the jackpot."  "Only," is a big word in law and logic.  However, this is what the affiliate shills are trying to demonstrate that clause means: "only max bet spins, but sometimes free spins, qualify for the jackpot," but the word "only" actually really means "only"....it is exclusionary, not inclusionary.

But, this is my point....the affiliate shills, the competitor shills, and the pro-regulatory shills are manipulating the truth, confusing the facts, and recruiting the ignorant to  further their own perverted agendas.

Yet again you fail to see my point. The game rules for Greedy Goblins shows that the jackpot can be won with a freeroll. There is the sentence, "Note: JACKPOT CANNOT BE MULTIPLIED" under the freeroll section. The terms of service, however, state that, "Bonus round and free spins do not qualify for the jackpot bonuses". Hence, the game rules are contradictory with the Terms of Service. What is so hard to understand about this?

Glam life != Greedy goblins, but you have a point , the rules around everything should be much more airtight, but that's far from justifying the shill attacks,
and 1001 same threads that serve no other purpose other than to bash and redirect gambling traffic to certain other sites.

[cjmoles]

The terms state: "Bonus round and free spins do not qualify for the jackpot bonuses pursuant to casino software provider rules. Only real money rounds qualify for the jackpot bonuses."  This--> "Bonus round and free spins do not qualify for the jackpot bonuses" and this -->"Only real money rounds qualify for the jackpot bonuses" are not opposing clauses.

Free spins never qualified for the jackpot, in "The Glam Life;" otherwise, the jackpot would have dropped when the combination was hit on the free spin. If free spins don't qualify, shouldn't that be clarified for the player who doesn't understand the difference between "max" and "free" and the mechanisms that link the two to avoid future confusion? 

Look: "only max bet spins qualify for the jackpot."  "Only," is a big word in law and logic.  However, this is what the affiliate shills are trying to demonstrate that clause means: "only max bet spins, but sometimes free spins, qualify for the jackpot," but the word "only" actually really means "only"....it is exclusionary, not inclusionary.

But, this is my point....the affiliate shills, the competitor shills, and the pro-regulatory shills are manipulating the truth, confusing the facts, and recruiting the ignorant to  further their own perverted agendas.

Yet again you fail to see my point. The game rules for Greedy Goblins shows that the jackpot can be won with a freeroll. There is the sentence, "Note: JACKPOT CANNOT BE MULTIPLIED" under the freeroll section. The terms of service, however, state that, "Bonus round and free spins do not qualify for the jackpot bonuses". Hence, the game rules are contradictory with the Terms of Service. What is so hard to understand about this?

First, the statement "Note: JACKPOT CANNOT BE MULTIPLIED" means that the jackpot cannot be multiplied....whatever other assumptions one insinuates from that clause is just an assumption and in noway a statement of fact.  Second, "Note: JACKPOT CANNOT BE MULTIPLIED" is not contradictory to "Bonus round and free spins do not qualify for the jackpot bonuses."  In fact, they are complementary statements.

This is actually what the terms state:

"Bonus round and free spins do not qualify for the jackpot bonuses pursuant to casino software provider rules. Only real money rounds qualify for the jackpot bonuses."  http://archive.is/XcDrD (Text bolded by me)

Yes, it may be confusing to some when you omit information, but when you re-insert the omitted information, then it unsurprisingly makes sense again.  Notice the bold in the above....omitting that information changes the clarity of the argument.

What information was inaccurate? Betcoin's, right? Because they only implemented the rule about max bets after jasonort began to complain.

No, Twitchy lied to you there too....

Please stop making shit up about me.

The max bet rule didn't change.  
They added the following to their terms:

"Bonus round and free spins do not qualify for the jackpot bonuses pursuant to casino software provider rules. Only real money rounds qualify for the jackpot bonuses."

These "software provider rules" that disqualify Jackpots during bonus rounds and freespins are not made public and likely don't actually exist.
Of course, it's tough to prove this when Betcoin ignores anyone who asks and Betsoft has a policy of not communicating with players.
I suspect whoever wrote this new term doesn't realize that many of their progressive jackpots can only be won during a bonus round.

Betcoin altered the ToS without changing the "Last updated" date to try and stealthily sneak in some rules. That's a serious problem.

The complaint was already submitted, recorded, and was being negotiated so there was no retroactive manipulation.  The rules needed to be clarified so that nobody else would think that "maximum" meant "free."  

JasonOrt satisfied all requirements for the progressive jackpot according to the rules at the time.
They changed the rules retroactively and did not pay him the jackpot.

Maximum means the greatest or highest amount possible.  JasonOrt bet highest amount possible for the denomination specific jackpot.  In other words, he bet the maximum.

I don't have all this free time to engage in weird debates, gamble, and do whatever I feel like because I'm dumb and poor....

Just because you're dumb and poor now doesn't mean you will be forever.  I believe you are capable of creating a less dumb future for yourself where you enjoy a less poor lifestyle.  I hope you do.


https://www.casinolistings.com/forum/gambling/online-casinos/28043/questioning-betsoft-jackpots?page=1

"Good Girl, Bad Girl" is designed to function within those distribution frequencies

When you make a claim like this, you should explain how you know it to be true.   Otherwise, it would be silly for anyone to believe you.

....If you dig a little deeper, you'd realize that it's not like other games....the jackpots are mutually exclusive by design.

Each denomination has 2 independent jackpots.  You can't win them both in a single spin.  This means they are mutually exclusive.
Is that what you meant?  I think you might be confused.

It's really nothing unique for a game to offer multiple proggressive jackpots.  Most of the time, these jackpots are "mutually exclusive". It's just another way of saying you can't win more than one jackpot in a spin.  

At the copa offers 3 progressives.  You can't win more than one in a single spin. They are mutually exclusive.
PartyPoker offers "The BigOne" slots.  It's 5 independant progressives.  You can't win more than one in a single spin.  They are mutually exclusive.
Any time you see a "Mini" "Medium" "Max" type progressive game, they are almost always mutually exclusive.

Here look at the game: http://casinogamesonnet.com/?game=good-girl-bad-girl&id=742 THE JACKPOTS ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE BY DESIGN!

lol^^^

Okay...I'm going to ignore the misquotes because I know that you cannot help yourself and it is second nature for you to fabricate information to suite your argument.

However, in the study conducted by casinolistings.com their regression studies only considered Betsoft progressives and they treated the two jackpots on that same game, in that study, as though they were independent events, then they concluded that something must be wrong with the software because some jackpots weren't won at all while others were won at higher frequencies. Do you know why?  Because the mother fuckers were mutually exclusive!  If you're playing for one, it is impossible to win the other!  But, no, they didn't consider that fact, so they concluded:

"Firstly, jackpots on certain games and specific coin sizes are never won at all at Bovada, despite being won many times a week at Slots.lv, even though the numbers show that the amounts being wagered and contributed to these jackpots are much higher at Bovada. It does indeed look as if some of these jackpots are "locked" or unable to be won. The odds of this just being random luck are astronomical."  (https://www.casinolistings.com/news/2016/06/warning-avoid-all-betsoft-slots-and-casino-games)

LOL....Really?  Isn't it funny that the only game he found in his study that demonstrated such behavior is the only game in his study that is designed to demonstrate that behavior?  They're "locked" because people are playing in "Bad Girl" mode!  <--- Look at the data!

And, the difference between the other games on the other sites you mention (which weren't included in casinolisting's study, I might add) is that "Good Girl, Bad Girl" let's the players decide which mode to play....it's not random!  That means that it is not only mutually exhaustive, but it is also collectively exhaustive in most modes!

Do you understand what that means, or are you just totally incompetent of rational thought altogether?

[TwitchySeal]

https://www.casinolistings.com/news/2016/06/warning-avoid-all-betsoft-slots-and-casino-games
LOL....Really?  Isn't it funny that the only game he found in his study that demonstrated such behavior is the only game in his study that is designed to demonstrate that behavior?  They're "locked" because people are playing in "Bad Girl" mode!  <--- Look at the data!

And, the difference between the other games on the other sites you mention (which weren't included in casinolisting's study, I might add) is that "Good Girl, Bad Girl" let's the players decide which mode to play....it's not random!  That means that it is not only mutually exhaustive, but it is also collectively exhaustive in most modes!

Do you understand what that means, or are you just totally incompetent of rational thought altogether?

The default is to play both the good girl and the bad girl at the same time.
Players have the option to switch to only good or only bad also.  
I had a real life lol when I realized you've covninced yourself that everyone must just be switching from both to just the "Bad Girl" mode.

They're "locked" because people are playing in "Bad Girl" mode!  <--- Look at the data!

Okok, let's look at the data.  I'll explain it to you.

These are all from Nov till Feb

Here we have the .1 denom "Good Girl" from Bovada.
The average jackpot is $840 and it appears to be getting hit regularly.
After Feb 13th it doesn't get hit and grows to over $4,000


Same thing except on Slots.lv
Average Jackpot is close and clearly there is less action on this site.


Now lets look at the .1 denom "Bad Girl" Jackpot at Slots.lv
Clearly this jackpot offers more variance.  Only 16 winners but the average jackpot is about twice a much as "good girl"
(also note: no winner after Feb 13th)


Finally the .1 "Bad Girl" Jackpot On Bovada
It was already over $350k because nobody had ever hit it.
Nobody hit it during this time period while it increased by nearly $100,000


The .05  and .25 denoms had nearly identical graphs see:?
Bovada Left, Slots.lv Right
Good Top, Bad Bottom



Bovadas Bad Girl Jackpot was locked for all the denominations above.
It was unlocked for the .02 denom though, see:


Notice that out of all the graphs I've walked you through, not a single jackpot was hit after Feb 13th?

[cjmoles]

https://www.casinolistings.com/news/2016/06/warning-avoid-all-betsoft-slots-and-casino-games
LOL....Really?  Isn't it funny that the only game he found in his study that demonstrated such behavior is the only game in his study that is designed to demonstrate that behavior?  They're "locked" because people are playing in "Bad Girl" mode!  <--- Look at the data!

And, the difference between the other games on the other sites you mention (which weren't included in casinolisting's study, I might add) is that "Good Girl, Bad Girl" let's the players decide which mode to play....it's not random!  That means that it is not only mutually exhaustive, but it is also collectively exhaustive in most modes!

Do you understand what that means, or are you just totally incompetent of rational thought altogether?

The default is to play both the good girl and the bad girl at the same time.
Players have the option to switch to only good or only bad also.  
I had a real life lol when I realized you've covninced yourself that everyone must just be switching from both to just the "Bad Girl" mode.

They're "locked" because people are playing in "Bad Girl" mode!  <--- Look at the data!

Okok, let's look at the data.  I'll explain it to you.

These are all from Nov till Feb

Here we have the .1 denom "Good Girl" from Bovada.
The average jackpot is $840 and it appears to be getting hit regularly.
After Feb 13th it doesn't get hit and grows to over $4,000


Same thing except on Slots.lv
Average Jackpot is close and clearly there is less action on this site.


Now lets look at the .1 denom "Bad Girl" Jackpot at Slots.lv
Clearly this jackpot offers more variance.  Only 16 winners but the average jackpot is about twice a much as "good girl"
(also note: no winner after Feb 13th)


Finally the .1 "Bad Girl" Jackpot On Bovada
It was already over $350k because nobody had ever hit it.
Nobody hit it during this time period while it increased by nearly $100,000


The .05  and .25 denoms had nearly identical graphs see:?
Bovada Left, Slots.lv Right
Good Top, Bad Bottom



Bovadas Bad Girl Jackpot was locked for all the denominations above.
It was unlocked for the .02 denom though, see:


Notice that out of all the graphs I've walked you through, not a single jackpot was hit after Feb 13th?

Dude...STFU!  Anybody with half a mutant brain cell would choose the mode that had the highest jackpot....Especially those who are spending thousands of dollars in max bets to hit the jackpot.  If you had a choice to spend 5 to win 10, or 5 to win 5000.....would you still choose to spend 5 to win 10? (<--nevermind, don't answer that---I'm assuming you have at least half a mutant brain cell which I'm seriously reconsidering)  And, if you had the intelligence to understand the data, then you you'll notice that is exactly what happened....people were playing in "Bad Girl" mode because the jackpots were higher.  There was no "unlocking" and "locking" like you guys suggest....LOL....Players had the choice to play in the mode which they thought would be most profitable to them and when they did that it excluded the possibility that the other event could occur because it is not only a mutually exhaustive event, but it's also a collectively exhaustive event.  It is a design specific to that game which you guys insist is faulty among all the other Betsoft games that were being tracked because it displays "odd" behavior compared to the other games!  The data only demonstrates that the behavior is not, in fact, "odd" but that the game is working exactly how it was designed to work!  LOL  You guys are just stooopid, that's all!

And....pages and pages of spewed bullshit doesn't make the bullshit any more valid!  It's still just a bunch of spewed bullshit used to dilute the truth.

[marlais]

Dude...STFU!  Anybody with half a mutant brain cell would choose the mode that had the highest jackpot....Especially those who are spending thousands of dollars in max bets to hit the jackpot.  If you had a choice to spend 5 to win 10, or 5 to win 5000.....would you still choose to spend 5 to win 10? (<--nevermind, don't answer that---I'm assuming you have at least half a mutant brain cell which I'm seriously reconsidering)  And, if you had the intelligence to understand the data, then you you'll notice that is exactly what happened....people were playing in "Bad Girl" mode because the jackpots were higher.  There was no "unlocking" and "locking" like you guys suggest....LOL....Players had the choice to play in the mode which they thought would be most profitable to them and when they did that it excluded the possibility that the other event could occur because it is not only a mutually exhaustive event, but it's also a collectively exhaustive event.  It is a design specific to that game which you guys insist is faulty among all the other Betsoft games that were being tracked because it displays "odd" behavior compared to the other games!  The data only demonstrates that the behavior is not, in fact, "odd" but that the game is working exactly how it was designed to work!  LOL  You guys are just stooopid, that's all!

And....pages and pages of spewed bullshit doesn't make the bullshit any more valid!  It's still just a bunch of spewed bullshit used to dilute the truth.

The graphs look pretty damning to me. So you're suggesting that after February 13, all the players of this particular game simultaneously switched their playing style to one where they couldn't possibly hit the jackpot? Seems a little far fetched.

If you can't make a cogent point without resorting to ad hominem attacks, you should just stop, because you have already lost the argument.

[TwitchySeal]

Dude...STFU!  Anybody with half a mutant brain cell would choose the mode that had the highest jackpot....Especially those who are spending thousands of dollars in max bets to hit the jackpot.  If you had a choice to spend 5 to win 10, or 5 to win 5000.....would you still choose to spend 5 to win 10? (<--nevermind, don't answer that---I'm assuming you have at least half a mutant brain cell which I'm seriously reconsidering)  And, if you had the intelligence to understand the data, then you you'll notice that is exactly what happened....people were playing in "Bad Girl" mode because the jackpots were higher.  There was no "unlocking" and "locking" like you guys suggest....LOL....Players had the choice to play in the mode which they thought would be most profitable to them and when they did that it excluded the possibility that the other event could occur because it is not only a mutually exhaustive event, but it's also a collectively exhaustive event.  It is a design specific to that game which you guys insist is faulty among all the other Betsoft games that were being tracked because it displays "odd" behavior compared to the other games!  The data only demonstrates that the behavior is not, in fact, "odd" but that the game is working exactly how it was designed to work!  LOL  You guys are just stooopid, that's all!

And....pages and pages of spewed bullshit doesn't make the bullshit any more valid!  It's still just a bunch of spewed bullshit used to dilute the truth.

The graphs look pretty damning to me. So you're suggesting that after February 13, all the players of this particular game simultaneously switched their playing style to one where they couldn't possibly hit the jackpot? Seems a little far fetched.

If you can't make a cogent point without resorting to ad hominem attacks, you should just stop, because you have already lost the argument.

He's hoping that those who quickly skim through this mess of a thread will only take note of his above average vocabulary/decent grammar and assume he must be making some sort of valid point. 

#cjmoled

[game-protect]

First, the statement "Note: JACKPOT CANNOT BE MULTIPLIED" means that the jackpot cannot be multiplied....whatever other assumptions one insinuates from that clause is just an assumption and in noway a statement of fact.  Second, "Note: JACKPOT CANNOT BE MULTIPLIED" is not contradictory to "Bonus round and free spins do not qualify for the jackpot bonuses."  In fact, they are complementary statements. -snip-

"JACKPOT CANNOT BE MULTIPLIED" = FREE SPINS QUALIFY FOR THE JACKPOT BONUSES within the FREE SPINS MODE description is of course contradictory to the by Betcoin hand written "Bonus round and free spins do not qualify for the jackpot bonuses."

Only a brainless would be not able to realize this...

[cjmoles]

Dude...STFU!  Anybody with half a mutant brain cell would choose the mode that had the highest jackpot....Especially those who are spending thousands of dollars in max bets to hit the jackpot.  If you had a choice to spend 5 to win 10, or 5 to win 5000.....would you still choose to spend 5 to win 10? (<--nevermind, don't answer that---I'm assuming you have at least half a mutant brain cell which I'm seriously reconsidering)  And, if you had the intelligence to understand the data, then you you'll notice that is exactly what happened....people were playing in "Good Girl" mode because the jackpots were better valued.  There was no "unlocking" and "locking" like you guys suggest....LOL....Players had the choice to play in the mode which they thought would be most profitable to them and when they did that it excluded the possibility that the other event could occur because it is not only a mutually exhaustive event, but it's also a collectively exhaustive event.  It is a design specific to that game which you guys insist is faulty among all the other Betsoft games that were being tracked because it displays "odd" behavior compared to the other games!  The data only demonstrates that the behavior is not, in fact, "odd" but that the game is working exactly how it was designed to work!  LOL  You guys are just stooopid, that's all!

And....pages and pages of spewed bullshit doesn't make the bullshit any more valid!  It's still just a bunch of spewed bullshit used to dilute the truth.

The graphs look pretty damning to me. So you're suggesting that after February 13, all the players of this particular game simultaneously switched their playing style to one where they couldn't possibly hit the jackpot? Seems a little far fetched.

If you can't make a cogent point without resorting to ad hominem attacks, you should just stop, because you have already lost the argument.

No, that's what YOU'RE saying.  Maybe read it a couple more times or something....I don't know...Maybe the words I used were too big?....I don't know why you're confused....I wrote it in English so I don't know how you can interpret me saying anything such as what you asserted, but I guess that's your style....if you guys can't figure it out, then just make something up, right?

You know, lying and being deceptive isn't going to help you increase your player field at SwC because it's only proving what type of people you have playing there....But, maybe all eight of you can get together and teach each other how to palm cards, or something when action's slow; I don't know.  I heard that another collusion crew was discovered playing there a few weeks back....Maybe if you spent more time trying to stop the collusion on your own site instead of making false stuff up on other sites, then maybe you could increase registration honestly....you guys are something else!

[marlais]

The graphs look pretty damning to me. So you're suggesting that after February 13, all the players of this particular game simultaneously switched their playing style to one where they couldn't possibly hit the jackpot? Seems a little far fetched.

If you can't make a cogent point without resorting to ad hominem attacks, you should just stop, because you have already lost the argument.

No, that's what YOU'RE saying.  Maybe read it a couple more times or something....I don't know...Maybe the words I used were too big?....I don't know why you're confused....I wrote it in English so I don't know how you can interpret me saying anything such as what you asserted, but I guess that's your style....if you guys can't figure it out, then just make something up, right?

You know, lying and being deceptive isn't going to help you increase your player field at SwC because it's only proving what type of people you have playing there....But, maybe all eight of you can get together and teach each other how to palm cards, or something when action's slow; I don't know.  I heard that another collusion crew was discovered playing there a few weeks back....Maybe if you spent more time trying to stop the collusion on your own site instead of making false stuff up on other sites, then maybe you could increase registration honestly....you guys are something else!

Perhaps your points would be clearer if you could dial it back for a minute and drop the sarcasm, conspiracy theories, and personal attacks. You have only succeeded in derailing your own half-baked argument.

[cjmoles]

The graphs look pretty damning to me. So you're suggesting that after February 13, all the players of this particular game simultaneously switched their playing style to one where they couldn't possibly hit the jackpot? Seems a little far fetched.

If you can't make a cogent point without resorting to ad hominem attacks, you should just stop, because you have already lost the argument.

No, that's what YOU'RE saying.  Maybe read it a couple more times or something....I don't know...Maybe the words I used were too big?....I don't know why you're confused....I wrote it in English so I don't know how you can interpret me saying anything such as what you asserted, but I guess that's your style....if you guys can't figure it out, then just make something up, right?

You know, lying and being deceptive isn't going to help you increase your player field at SwC because it's only proving what type of people you have playing there....But, maybe all eight of you can get together and teach each other how to palm cards, or something when action's slow; I don't know.  I heard that another collusion crew was discovered playing there a few weeks back....Maybe if you spent more time trying to stop the collusion on your own site instead of making false stuff up on other sites, then maybe you could increase registration honestly....you guys are something else!

Perhaps your points would be clearer if you could dial it back for a minute and drop the sarcasm, conspiracy theories, and personal attacks. You have only succeeded in derailing your own half-baked argument.

Maybe I was a little harsh, I apologize, I am frustrated...but look at your own tone as well.  Here I will try to explain again without all the extra garbage Twitchy inserts to confuse the point.  My reference was to this data found at the casinolistings website quoted in the blue text below:

Statistically improbable progressive jackpot results

After being alerted to potentially "locked" Betsoft jackpots that are seemingly unable to won by a member of our forum, BlackjackAA, back in September of last year, we set out to monitor and record the values of multiple Betsoft jackpots using our jackpot tracking software. We chose Bovada and Slots.lv to be our test subjects as they have a large customer base and a full collection of Betsoft games. After almost nine months of recording jackpot values we can say with certainty that there is something seriously wrong with these games. In a comparison between Bovada and Slots.lv we have identified two major issues.

Firstly, jackpots on certain games and specific coin sizes are never won at all at Bovada, despite being won many times a week at Slots.lv, even though the numbers show that the amounts being wagered and contributed to these jackpots are much higher at Bovada. It does indeed look as if some of these jackpots are "locked" or unable to be won. The odds of this just being random luck are astronomical.  (https://www.casinolistings.com/news/2016/06/warning-avoid-all-betsoft-slots-and-casino-games)



You can play the game for free here: http://casinogamesonnet.com/?game=good-girl-bad-girl&id=742

The problem is that this game is designed such that the player has the option of choosing which jackpot to play which also eliminates the possibility that the other jackpot could be won.  And, if one or the other jackpot is such that it has a higher expected return than the other, then that's the one that will be chosen.  Once it's chosen, the other jackpot cannot be won. This game is different than the other games because it is not a randomly distributed jackpot but rather a jackpot that is based on human choice which is motivated by non-random factors and incentives.  That's why the author concludes, "the odds of this just being random luck are astronomical."  He's right, it's not "just random luck" but that's not because the game is crooked, it's the way the game is designed. When those numbers came out, I don't believe he realized that that was the way the game was designed, so of course it's going to look aberrant....if it was any other game then it would have been aberrant.  It's not surprising that this game was the only game that demonstrated that astronomically improbable behavior.

I also have issues with the other points the author makes, but I have made no reference to them thus far.  All the graphs that Twitchy spewed all over my argument are totally unrelated to this one simple point that I tried to demonstrate. But, in general, there are no references to player populations, no parameters for demographics, no tolerances for market trends, no current event considerations....etc.  You know, college grants and loans were issued in January....no significance?

See....I wrote this again....and again it's going to be diluted with all this other unrelated stuff to obscure the point I made....so forgive my frustration beforehand....I'm just trying to present an honest evaluation and it's constantly being derailed.  I've never cheated anybody, never scammed anybody, and I try my best to state things the way I see them....that's all.
 

[TwitchySeal]

The problem is that this game is designed such that the player has the option of choosing which jackpot to play which also eliminates the possibility that the other jackpot could be won.  And, if one or the other jackpot is such that it has a higher expected return than the other, then that's the one that will be chosen.

Cjmoles thinks that everyone decided to try and win the $350k+ Badgirl jackpot on the right (which nobody ever won) instead of the much smaller Goodgirl Jackpot on the left (which was hit over 100 times)

[cjmoles]

The problem is that this game is designed such that the player has the option of choosing which jackpot to play which also eliminates the possibility that the other jackpot could be won.  And, if one or the other jackpot is such that it has a higher expected return than the other, then that's the one that will be chosen.

Cjmoles thinks that everyone decided to try and win the $350k+ Badgirl jackpot on the right (which nobody ever won) instead of the much smaller Goodgirl Jackpot on the left (which was hit over 100 times)

-snipped senseless TwitchyTroll trash for brevity.

Twitchy, you know I meant to say "Good Girl" instead of "Bad Girl" and your just trying to misrepresent the case again as usual!  But, that's beside the point, you can see the numbers, you can look at the game, and you can read the data, then you can ask a friend to explain the data to you if you don't quite understand what you're reading.  If you would spend more time trying to be truthful and honest instead of a multi-accounting, lying, photo shopping, scam recruiting, East Coast pro-regulatory shill that talks to himself then maybe you could find a place to play.  It's not my fault that you got kicked out of the poker room....it's your own fault.  Start trying to be honest and you might find somebody to play with you.

[TwitchySeal]

The problem is that this game is designed such that the player has the option of choosing which jackpot to play which also eliminates the possibility that the other jackpot could be won.  And, if one or the other jackpot is such that it has a higher expected return than the other, then that's the one that will be chosen.

Cjmoles thinks that everyone decided to try and win the $350k+ Badgirl jackpot on the right (which nobody ever won) instead of the much smaller Goodgirl Jackpot on the left (which was hit over 100 times)

Twitchy, you know I meant to say "Good Girl" instead of "Bad Girl" and your just trying to misrepresent the case again as usual!  But, that's beside the point, you can see the numbers, you can look at the game, and you can read the data, then you can ask a friend to explain the data to you if you don't quite understand what you're reading.  If you would spend more time trying to be truthful and honest instead of a multi-accounting, lying, photo shopping, scam recruiting, East Coast pro-regulatory shill that talks to himself then maybe you could find a place to play.  It's not my fault that you got kicked out of the poker room....it's your own fault.  Start trying to be honest and you might find somebody to play with you.

I didn't even notice you mixed them up to be honest.

You're theory is that everyone chooses the option to go for the bigger jackpot and nobody chooses to go for the smaller.

How do you explain the smaller jackpot (the one nobody is choosing) is getting hit over 100 times while not a single person wins the jackpot that everyone is choosing?

[cjmoles]

The problem is that this game is designed such that the player has the option of choosing which jackpot to play which also eliminates the possibility that the other jackpot could be won.  And, if one or the other jackpot is such that it has a higher expected return than the other, then that's the one that will be chosen.

Cjmoles thinks that everyone decided to try and win the $350k+ Badgirl jackpot on the right (which nobody ever won) instead of the much smaller Goodgirl Jackpot on the left (which was hit over 100 times)

--snipped unrelated TwitchyTroll trash--

Twitchy, you know I meant to say "Good Girl" instead of "Bad Girl" and your just trying to misrepresent the case again as usual!  But, that's beside the point, you can see the numbers, you can look at the game, and you can read the data, then you can ask a friend to explain the data to you if you don't quite understand what you're reading.  If you would spend more time trying to be truthful and honest instead of a multi-accounting, lying, photo shopping, scam recruiting, East Coast pro-regulatory shill that talks to himself then maybe you could find a place to play.  It's not my fault that you got kicked out of the poker room....it's your own fault.  Start trying to be honest and you might find somebody to play with you.

I didn't even notice you mixed them up to be honest.

You're theory is that everyone chooses the option to go for the bigger jackpot and nobody chooses to go for the smaller.

How do you explain the smaller jackpot (the one nobody is choosing) is getting hit over 100 times while not a single person wins the jackpot that everyone is choosing?

No, that's not my theory.  Here, again in quotes, is my point I made earlier:

"The problem is that this game is designed such that the player has the option of choosing which jackpot to play which also eliminates the possibility that the other jackpot could be won.  And, if one or the other jackpot is such that it has a higher expected return than the other, then that's the one that will be chosen.  Once it's chosen, the other jackpot cannot be won. This game is different than the other games because it is not a randomly distributed jackpot but rather a jackpot that is based on human choice which is motivated by non-random factors and incentives.  That's why the author concludes, 'the odds of this just being random luck are astronomical.' He's right, it's not 'just random luck' but that's not because the game is crooked, it's the way the game is designed. When those numbers came out, I don't believe he realized that that was the way the game was designed, so of course it's going to look aberrant....if it was any other game then it would have been aberrant.  It's not surprising that this game was the only game that demonstrated that astronomically improbable behavior."

And here it is said differently:

If it were a game that followed a RANDOM distribution model then the authors conclusion that "the odds of this just being random luck are astronomical" would be a valid observation.  However, it isn't a game that follows a random distribution model so the analysis is invalid.  TO BE CLEAR, WHICH JACKPOT IS WON IS NOT A RANDOM EVENT AS ASSUMED, BUT INSTEAD AN EVENT WHICH IS EXCLUSIVELY AND COLLECTIVELY DETERMINED BY HUMAN CHOICE MOTIVATED BY THE INCENTIVE TO MAXIMIZE PROFIT. It's not a random event so it can't be interpreted as a random event, then juxtaposed into a normal distribution frequency, classified deviant, and still be a sound argument.  When he states "the odds of this just being random luck are astronomical," he's right because they weren't random luck at all.

[TwitchySeal]

the player has the option of choosing which jackpot to play which also eliminates the possibility that the other jackpot could be won.  And, if one or the other jackpot is such that it has a higher expected return than the other, then that's the one that will be chosen.  Once it's chosen, the other jackpot cannot be won.

CJmoles thinks the reason one jackpot is never won is because everyone chooses to play for the other jackpot instead.

Anybody with half a mutant brain cell would choose the mode that had the highest jackpot....Especially those who are spending thousands of dollars in max bets to hit the jackpot.  If you had a choice to spend 5 to win 10, or 5 to win 5000.....would you still choose to spend 5 to win 10? 

people were playing in "Bad Girl" mode because the jackpots were higher. 

Players had the choice to play in the mode which they thought would be most profitable to them and when they did that it excluded the possibility that the other event could occur

He thinks everyone just picked whichever mode had the highest jackpot, resulting in the other mode never hitting.

Cj, How do you explain the smaller jackpot (the one nobody is choosing) getting hit over 100 times while not a single person wins the big jackpot that everyone picks?



My theory is that most people both ways, good and bad, at the same time and contribute to both jackpots with every spin.
When the bonus is triggered, sometimes they choose bad, sometimes they choose good. 
Someone who's up a lot of money is more likely to choose bad, someone who wants their money to last is more likely to choose good.
Most players will check it out each, "just to see"

It's pretty funny to see all the different ways you try to defend a casino that doesn't even bother trying to defend themselves. 

Any thoughts on the whole "this issue is between the player and a business that refuses to communicate directly with players and nobody knows who runs it or owns it? 
Wouldn't it be funny if it was the same people that owned Betcoin?

[cjmoles]

the player has the option of choosing which jackpot to play which also eliminates the possibility that the other jackpot could be won.  And, if one or the other jackpot is such that it has a higher expected return than the other, then that's the one that will be chosen.  Once it's chosen, the other jackpot cannot be won.

CJmoles thinks the reason one jackpot is never won is because everyone chooses to play for the other jackpot instead.

Anybody with half a mutant brain cell would choose the mode that had the highest jackpot....Especially those who are spending thousands of dollars in max bets to hit the jackpot.  If you had a choice to spend 5 to win 10, or 5 to win 5000.....would you still choose to spend 5 to win 10?  

people were playing in "Bad Girl" mode because the jackpots were higher.  

Players had the choice to play in the mode which they thought would be most profitable to them and when they did that it excluded the possibility that the other event could occur

He thinks everyone just picked whichever mode had the highest jackpot, resulting in the other mode never hitting.

Cj, How do you explain the smaller jackpot (the one nobody is choosing) getting hit over 100 times while not a single person wins the big jackpot that everyone picks?

--snipped TwitchTroll trash for brevity--

My theory is that most people both ways, good and bad, at the same time and contribute to both jackpots with every spin.
When the bonus is triggered, sometimes they choose bad, sometimes they choose good.  
Someone who's up a lot of money is more likely to choose bad, someone who wants their money to last is more likely to choose good.
Most players will check it out each, "just to see"

It's pretty funny to see all the different ways you try to defend a casino that doesn't even bother trying to defend themselves.  

Any thoughts on the whole "this issue is between the player and a business that refuses to communicate directly with players and nobody knows who runs it or owns it?  
Wouldn't it be funny if it was the same people that owned Betcoin?

"Cj, How do you explain the smaller jackpot (the one nobody is choosing) getting hit over 100 times while not a single person wins the big jackpot that everyone picks?"  That is very strange, indeed, if nobody picks it, yet it is won over 100 times! It doesn't seem like it should be won at all if it wasn't played....Something's obviously wrong with that data too.
But, I do know that the smaller jackpot has a much higher probability of hitting than the larger one, by design, because I read the rules before I played.

1)  Playing both ways costs twice as much to play, so it wouldn't make sense to throw away money on propositions that have a minimum expected return when one can get twice as many spins at the proposition that provides the greatest possible expected value for the same price.

2)  Choosing which mode to play is independent of any bonus round...(It's a Betsoft game, not the RTG version)(play it free here: http://casinogamesonnet.com/?game=good-girl-bad-girl&id=742)

3)  Nobody likes arguing with trolls, so why would they open up a dialogue with them?

4)  Wouldn't it be funny if it was owned by casinolistings.com who's getting tons of clicks for their affiliate program from this negative publicity while still receiving money from affiliates who provide Betsoft software?

Having addressed your points, I will re-iterate my point for clarity.  My point is that no valid conclusion can be attained from data that comes from a non-random source if it is treated as though it were random.  To say that same more loosely: One cannot logically say, "Look at this non-random data; it doesn't appear to be random at all; therefore, it must be faulty."  The study was seriously flawed and if the people conducting it are actually qualified enough to make that determination, then they will quickly perceive the error....If they are qualified and they don't perceive the error, then they may be motivated by some other factor rather than truth.

[TwitchySeal]

That is very strange, indeed, if nobody picks it, yet it is won over 100 times!  It doesn't seem like it it should be won at all if it wasn't played....Something's obviously wrong with that data too.

You're on the right track Cjmoles!  Finally!

Something is obviously wrong.

One possibility is that the data was faked not accurate due to human error.

If the data is accurate though, then there is a serious issue with Betsoft software.

Have you seen this article?  I somehow missed it.

I think the author did a really great job of articulating Betcoins ethical responsibility in the "WHO PAYS?" section.

[cjmoles]

That is very strange, indeed, if nobody picks it, yet it is won over 100 times!  It doesn't seem like it it should be won at all if it wasn't played....Something's obviously wrong with that data too.

You're on the right track Cjmoles!  Finally!

Something is obviously wrong.

One possibility is that the data was faked not accurate due to human error. <---(smile) data source citation?

If the data is accurate though, then there is a serious issue with Betsoft software. <--- (smile again) or the data source.

Have you seen this article?  I somehow missed it.

I seen the article....It is obviously using secondary sources such as the flawed statistical analysis provided by casinolistings.com and the bitcointalk thread which is untruthful.

I think the author did a really great job of articulating Betcoins ethical responsibility in the "WHO PAYS?" section. <--of course you do

But, the jackpot wasn't actually won as claimed in the bitcointalk thread....the dispute was whether or not the terms were clear....The jackpot never dropped and Betcoin did, immediately, pay the 1000 credits that were won. Who's responsible for interpreting the intent of the code....a random TwitchyTroll or the software provider?

For reference, here's case law on who has responsibility in similar cases: http://caselaw.findlaw.com/la-court-of-appeal/1080167.html#footnote_ref_1  Footnote 1 reads: "A progressive slot machine is a machine that is linked by computer to similar slot machines in other casinos.  Each linked slot machine contributes money from that machine to a single jackpot, which is called a progressive jackpot.   The progressive jackpot is much larger than any jackpot a single slot machine could pay.   Often the manufacturer of the progressive slot machines is the owner of the machines and is responsible for paying the progressive jackpots that are won.   In the instant case, IGT manufactured and owned the Wheel of Fortune slot machine and was responsible for paying any progressive jackpots won on that machine."


--snipped TwitchTroll trash for brevity--

Above colored text added by me for brevity

[TwitchySeal]

Cj, How do you explain the smaller jackpot (the one nobody is choosing) getting hit over 100 times while not a single person wins the big jackpot that everyone picks?

That is very strange, indeed, if nobody picks it, yet it is won over 100 times!  It doesn't seem like it it should be won at all if it wasn't played....Something's obviously wrong with that data too.

Do you think there's any possibility that these two graphs are accurate or no?

[cjmoles]

Cj, How do you explain the smaller jackpot (the one nobody is choosing) getting hit over 100 times while not a single person wins the big jackpot that everyone picks?

That is very strange, indeed, if nobody picks it, yet it is won over 100 times!  It doesn't seem like it it should be won at all if it wasn't played....Something's obviously wrong with that data too.

Do you think there's any possibility that these two graphs are accurate or no?  I have no idea what those graphs are, or where they came from because you do not cite a source; therefore, I cannot give you an opinion on the accuracy of the data.

---snipped TwitchyTroll trash because sources not cited----

Red text in the outside quote above added by me for clarity.

Where in the data does it demonstrate that the jackpot was won while nobody was playing?  It is an impossibility for that to occur, and I haven't seen any study that made that claim.  See, it's not the data that is wrong....it's the source of information that is wrong. So, find the person who is claiming that the smaller jackpot was won over 100 times while nobody was playing, and ask him to present the data and cite the source.  

And, the odds against hitting the "Bad Girl" jackpots are much greater than the odds against hitting the "Good Girl" jackpots; that's why the smaller, "Good Girl," jackpots were hit most often.  Furthermore, nothing in the data demonstrates that everybody was playing for the larger jackpot; in fact, the data shows quite the opposite; there were MANY people playing for the smaller, much easier to trigger, "Good Girl" jackpots, and fewer players playing for the larger, much harder to trigger, "Bad Girl" jackpots.  See Table Below

[actmyname]

And, the odds against hitting the "Bad Girl" jackpots are much greater than the odds against hitting the "Good Girl" jackpots; that's why the smaller, "Good Girl," jackpots were hit most often.  Furthermore, nothing in the data demonstrates that everybody was playing for the larger jackpot; in fact, the data shows quite the opposite; there were MANY people playing for the smaller, much easier to trigger, "Good Girl" jackpots, and fewer players playing for the larger, much harder to trigger, "Bad Girl" jackpots.

Nothing proves the chance for hitting the "Bad Girl" jackpots are lower. In fact, you even state, "there were MANY people playing for the smaller... "Good Girl" jackpots". Don't you think that the Good Girl jackpots were hit because they were played more often, rather than the odds being lower?

Furthermore, why are you using information from a source you've deemed wrong? We've already shown the graphs were from Casinolistings, and their data.

Also, you want to notice how Bovada has no recorded wins for 5 cent, 10 cent, 25 cent, and $1? (Like shown on the graph)

Good job switching the topic from Greedy Goblins' contradiction with Betcoin ToS to now just BetSoft issues, which you for some reason are refuting.


Last thing to point out: previously you were saying that people would rather pay for the larger jackpot. Well, then why would it be that the data shows more have gone for the two cent games instead of the higher coin games?

[CL-Ed]

This ridiculous idea that no-one was playing for the jackpots that were not being won at Bovada is so mind bogglingly wrong that it needs to be set straight.

If no-one was playing for those jackpots (i.e. picking Good or both Good/Bad modes) then their contributions from each wager would not be going to the jackpots and the jackpots would not be increasing, and the graphs would have flat horizontal lines. Playing in "Bad" mode does not make a contribution to the "Good" mode jackpot and vice versa. Playing at a 5c coin size does not contribute to the 10c jackpot and so on. They are all independent. So we know at a minimum that people were playing in both those modes (some at the same time) and at all coin sizes because all the graph lines were heading upwards (and down when they were won).

Players playing in both modes contribute to both jackpots and can choose their jackpot when the bonus round comes. If that is the case then you could reasonably expect them to pick the higher jackpot. If so, as soon as that one is won and it reverts to its seed value, you would expect most players to pick the other jackpot next time as it would now be higher. Thus you should expect to see a reasonably similar distribution of jackpot wins between good and bad at the same casino as the jackpots alternate between being biggest. And that is what we see at Slots.lv. But not at Bovada where several of the jackpots were huge and never won in bad mode compared to good.

Sticking to that theory, if the bad jackpots were much higher you would expect to see the good jackpots rarely won as presumably people would not elect to shoot for them when playing in both modes. Yet people kept winning the good mode jackpots. Perhaps the winners were exclusively playing in good mode despite the bad jackpots being thousands of times bigger. That still doesn't explain why no-one won the bad jackpots. In fact this suggestion makes the evidence all the more damning as the logical conclusion is that more people would have been going for the bad jackpots.

In addition, given the long history of data we have it is obvious that something changed when those jackpots that were being won several times a day suddenly stopped being won. And then a few weeks later they all reverted to their previous behaviour at the same time.

So then the only comeback is that our data is no good which has been suggested, again without any evidence to prove otherwise. Seeing as we recorded the data directly from Betsoft's servers after authenticating and getting a session token, we were receiving the exact same data that Betsoft was sending to its players while they were playing the game. So either our data is correct, or it is all wrong and therefore every player who was playing the games at the same time was being supplied with wrong jackpot data, which would be due to Betsoft incompetence. People can put their fingers in their ears and scream all they want about the data being no good because it doesn't support their predetermined conclusions or agenda that they are trying to push (sounding like a climate change denialist) but back in reality, Bovada's reaction says all you need to know about whether the numbers were right or not.

I'll quote Michael Bluejay (someone I have never met or spoken to before this) who wrote this after seeing the data:

3. Looking at the data of when the Slots.lv jackpots hit (and the Bovada denominations that don't exhbit the problem), I conclude that the odds of hitting the Bad Girl jackpot are about 1 in 20,000.  But Bad Girl 5¢ at Bovada has been played around 5.6 million times without hitting.  If the jackpot odds are 1 in 20k (which all evidence suggests), and if I've done my math right, the chances that it hasn't hit are 1 in 17,600,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,
000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000.  That's more than the number of atoms in the universe. (More on the jackpot odds.)

4. In February 2016, several Bovada slots went from routinely hitting about once a day to not hitting at all for weeks, then all the slots were suddenly winnable again.  If that happened for even one slot machine that would be extremely suspicious, but the fact that it happened on multiple machines, with the dates that they went unwinnable and then became winnable again corresponding exactly, tells us unequivocally that this is a smoking gun.

[TwitchySeal]

I have no idea what those graphs are, or where they came from because you do not cite a source; therefore, I cannot give you an opinion on the accuracy of the data.

Oh.  You should really read this thread where they discuss the details of how they figured out the Betsoft Jackpots are rigged.

I assumed you had educated yourself on casinolistings.com


Over a month ago I told you:

If you want to understand the whole story, read this entire thread, all 3 pages, where a user brought the issue up, and how the owner went about investigating it :https://www.casinolistings.com/forum/gambling/online-casinos/28043/questioning-betsoft-jackpots
Also, before questioning the integrity of the investigation, take a look into the history of CasinoListings.com

Your response made it seem like you probably didn't read it yet, so I asked again:






Then you didn't respond at all, so I reminded you again:

CJ, i put a lot of effort into responding to you, hoping you would read it.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1236667.msg15575734#msg15575734
Did you?  

You really should have done more research.
Did you know that they track over 700 online progressive jackpots? https://www.casinolistings.com/jackpots/progressives
That they have been in the business for 10+ years and seem to be pretty respected within the online casino industry?

Edit: Hi Ed

[CL-Ed]

Oh.  You should really read this thread where they discuss the details of how they figured out the Betsoft Jackpots are rigged.

Yes please do. If you do you'll see I was initially skeptical.

In fact reading it back now to my eternal shame I sounded a bit like cjmoles at the time. How embarrassing!  

[jasonort]

Cj, How do you explain the smaller jackpot (the one nobody is choosing) getting hit over 100 times while not a single person wins the big jackpot that everyone picks?

That is very strange, indeed, if nobody picks it, yet it is won over 100 times!  It doesn't seem like it it should be won at all if it wasn't played....Something's obviously wrong with that data too.

Do you think there's any possibility that these two graphs are accurate or no?  I have no idea what those graphs are, or where they came from because you do not cite a source; therefore, I cannot give you an opinion on the accuracy of the data.

---snipped TwitchyTroll trash because sources not cited----

Red text in the outside quote above added by me for clarity.

Where in the data does it demonstrate that the jackpot was won while nobody was playing?  It is an impossibility for that to occur, and I haven't seen any study that made that claim.  See, it's not the data that is wrong....it's the source of information that is wrong. So, find the person who is claiming that the smaller jackpot was won over 100 times while nobody was playing, and ask him to present the data and cite the source.  

And, the odds against hitting the "Bad Girl" jackpots are much greater than the odds against hitting the "Good Girl" jackpots; that's why the smaller, "Good Girl," jackpots were hit most often.  Furthermore, nothing in the data demonstrates that everybody was playing for the larger jackpot; in fact, the data shows quite the opposite; there were MANY people playing for the smaller, much easier to trigger, "Good Girl" jackpots, and fewer players playing for the larger, much harder to trigger, "Bad Girl" jackpots.  See Table Below

http://i67.tinypic.com/v8ols2.png

cjmoles

Please look at my first post in this thread.  Look at the screenshots of my spin, of the paytable at the time of the spin, and at the proof that TwitchySeal provided proving that Betcoin adjusted their TOS after the fact to account for the free spins round.  After looking this over answer this question for me:  Should I have been paid the jackpot?  All of this debate about statistics is confusing and can be interpreted a million different ways.  But my spin is simple.  Either it should have won or it shouldn't.  If your answer is that it should have won, then Betsoft is scamming players and stealing their money.  And Betcoin by not standing up for their player and continuing to use this software is complicit in this scam. 

[jasonort]

I posted on Betcoin's forum two days ago asking for an update on the freeroll.  I also included in the post the questions that I have asked them to answer regarding my contested jackpot spin.  They had told me that my questions would be answered.  It has been nearly a month and they have yet to do so.  Within minutes my post had been deleted, and the 200 chips I had put towards the freeroll had been refunded to my account.   I jumped on player chat to confront Betcoin William about this.  He condescendingly said that I am dwelling on the past and I should move on.   He did claim that they will do the freeroll at some point in the future.  I won't hold my breath.  And of course I am dwelling on the past.  I was cheated out of a 1,000,000 credit jackpot.  It is quite clear to me that they just want me to go away.  They do not want attention drawn to the fact that I was cheated out of a jackpot on their site. And the fact that they will not answer questions about how this occurred tells me that they are complicit in what amounts to theft from their players by allowing this to happen and doing nothing about it.  For anyone reading this play at your own risk.  Betcoin will not back you up if you have a problem with one of the software providers.

[game-protect]

It is relevant.  It is not truthful to pretend that the rules for one game ("Greedy Goblins") apply to another totally different game ("The Glam Life") which has its own rules.  The fact is that only max bet spins qualify for the jackpot as was specified in the rules of the REAL game "The Glam Life" and free spins are not max bet spins because "maximum" and "free" have antithetical definitions.  Maximum: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/maximum  Free: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/free

See, when one knowingly bases their own information on information that is demonstrably false, then their own conclusions are already demonstrably false.  

"Only real money rounds qualify for the jackpot bonuses" was Betcoin's phrasing to attempt to solidify their argument of "free spins do not award jackpots".

They have that in the sentence prior: "Bonus round and free spins do not qualify for the jackpot bonuses"

So, if the terms don't coincide with the game rules, then certainly there's a problem. Which one takes precedence?

My arguments have had nothing to do with Glam Life, by the way. I was only arguing about the Terms of Service and the game information. By linking these two, you clearly haven't fully understood what I was stating.

The terms state: "Bonus round and free spins do not qualify for the jackpot bonuses pursuant to casino software provider rules. Only real money rounds qualify for the jackpot bonuses."  This--> "Bonus round and free spins do not qualify for the jackpot bonuses" and this -->"Only real money rounds qualify for the jackpot bonuses" are not opposing clauses.

1) The casino software provider rules do not state: "Bonus round and free spins do not qualify for the jackpot bonuses"

2) "Bonus round and free spins do not qualify for the jackpot bonuses" is a construct by the Betcoin scam artists, added to their alleged Terms of Service, after Jasonort won the Jackpot!

3) "Only real money rounds qualify for the jackpot bonuses" is in contradiction to the casino software provider rules, which state "5 jackpot symbols on max bet wins the JACKPOT!

-> there is a huge difference between "real money" rounds and "max bet" rounds  

Free spins never qualified for the jackpot, in "The Glam Life;" otherwise, the jackpot would have dropped when the combination was hit on the free spin. If free spins don't qualify, shouldn't that be clarified for the player who doesn't understand the difference between "max" and "free" and the mechanisms that link the two to avoid future confusion?

1) When you interact with scammers, then a Jackpot not dropping, does not necessarily mean you did not win it!

2) According to the software provider rules, on-reels bonus games qualify very well for the Jackpot, otherwise they would have excluded it in the rules.

3) There is no difference between "max" bet and "free" bet. If you won "max" bets, then they are "free" for you, but they are still "max" bets, if you won them based on a "max" bet.

To be able to understand this, though requires to have a brain.  

Look: "only max bet spins qualify for the jackpot."  "Only," is a big word in law and logic.  However, this is what the affiliate shills are trying to demonstrate that clause means: "only max bet spins, but sometimes free spins, qualify for the jackpot," but the word "only" actually really means "only"....it is exclusionary, not inclusionary.

1) While "only" indeed means only, the word only is not mentioned in the casino software provider rules! To be able to discuss this stuff, requires to be able to read.

I would be very concerned about a gambling company paying an army of promoters for nonsense posts.

2) According to the casino software provider rules, max bet on-reels bonus games always qualify for the Jackpot and not only sometimes, as suggested by you.

But, this is my point....the affiliate shills, the competitor shills, and the pro-regulatory shills are manipulating the truth, confusing the facts, and recruiting the ignorant to further their own perverted agendas.

Yes. We already understood very well that you are manipulating the truth, confusing the facts (or at least try to) and try to recruiting the ignorant to follow your perverted agenda.

[Limpitz]

Guys, relax.

1. The graphs are accurate.
2. The bad girl was clearly locked/unwinnable no doubt about this.
3. There are still tons of sites where the jackpots are locked (so Betsoft is as active as ever with their scam), check this one out for example: https://www.7red.com/games/good_girl_bad_girl : Good Girl is 115k Bad Girl is 116k, never won.

I have a question about jasonort though.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but as I see it:
1. The forum and community backed jasonort up and helped him against the casino to get his jackpot winning.
2. jasonort in silience agreed on a deal with them, letting the crooks go free.
3. jasonort then silenced himself and didn't want to contribute anymore to the forum since he already got what he wanted.
4. jasonort is having another problem and now comes back for help?

Sorry if I'm wrong here, but if these points are true, I feel that jasonort have played all his cards. I can't understand his guts to come back as if nothing happened and ask for more help when he fu**ed the community in the first place.

[CL-Ed]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but as I see it:
1. The forum and community backed jasonort up and helped him against the casino to get his jackpot winning.
2. jasonort in silience agreed on a deal with them, letting the crooks go free.
3. jasonort then silenced himself and didn't want to contribute anymore to the forum since he already got what he wanted.
4. jasonort is having another problem and now comes back for help?

1. That depends on what you mean by "his jackpot winning". He was not paid the jackpot. If you meant a tiny payoff that was nowhere near the full amount then carry on.

2. Agreed but I'm sure he felt that he was in a no-win situation where he could take the payoff or get nothing. I don't think any of us should judge him unless you have been in the same situation.

3. He definitely did not get what he wanted which was the jackpot that he legitimately won. The fact he has posted more recently suggests to me that the payoff has cleared and they cant hold anything against him now to keep him quiet and/or keep up the happy charade they made him play.

4. I don't see him asking for help. It appears to me that he is just trying to warn people about these crooks.

I do agree that Jason has played his cards for better or for worse. Maybe he was too quick to accept the payoff, or maybe he had no other choice. There is nothing he can do now other than to warn people. He's never going to see that jackpot money.

[Limpitz]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but as I see it:
1. The forum and community backed jasonort up and helped him against the casino to get his jackpot winning.
2. jasonort in silience agreed on a deal with them, letting the crooks go free.
3. jasonort then silenced himself and didn't want to contribute anymore to the forum since he already got what he wanted.
4. jasonort is having another problem and now comes back for help?

1. That depends on what you mean by "his jackpot winning". He was not paid the jackpot. If you meant a tiny payoff that was nowhere near the full amount then carry on.

2. Agreed but I'm sure he felt that he was in a no-win situation where he could take the payoff or get nothing. I don't think any of us should judge him unless you have been in the same situation.

3. He definitely did not get what he wanted which was the jackpot that he legitimately won. The fact he has posted more recently suggests to me that the payoff has cleared and they cant hold anything against him now to keep him quiet and/or keep up the happy charade they made him play.

4. I don't see him asking for help. It appears to me that he is just trying to warn people about these crooks.

I do agree that Jason has played his cards for better or for worse. Maybe he was too quick to accept the payoff, or maybe he had no other choice. There is nothing he can do now other than to warn people. He's never going to see that jackpot money.

Thank you for your reply.
I agree with all your points, too bad it had to go down this road.

[game-protect]

-snip-

2. jasonort in silience agreed on a deal with them, letting the crooks go free.

-snip-

Jasonort doubtless won the jackpot legitimately:

Features

5 jackpot symbols on max bet wins the JACKPOT!

www.betsoft.com/games/the-glam-life

-> the terms do not differentiate between directly paid max bets and won max bets

-> if on-reels bonus games would not qualify for the jackpot, they would have definitely excluded them in the "Features" terms

On the final spin I get five Yachts on the payline which in my opinion should have triggered the jackpot. Instead I was paid 1000 credits. This I believe this is evidence to the fact that it was a max bet according to the pay table. 5 yachts = 200 credits x Number of bets per line. Five bets per line is the maximum. Based on them paying me 1000 credits they're essentially stating that I bet the max amount.

1) Jasonort let the crooks go free, because he has no interest to claim and enforce the jackpot he won


2) The deal Jasonort agreed is juridically not valid, because

a) A deal requires to state the deal partners and the applicable jurisdiction

b) Jasonort was extorted to accept the deal, because the operator hide his identity and he was not able to enforce his basic right to go to a court


3) Jasonort still has the right to enforce his claim at a court of the applicable jurisdiction. But this would logically require to know it.


4) I did not make any research so far, but there are possibly traces that could lead to the identity of the operator

a) The Winning Poker Network in Costa Rica

b) Their software provider(s) like Betsoft in Malta

c) And so on

[TwitchySeal]

1) Jasonort let the crooks go free, because he has no interest to claim and enforce the jackpot he won

I think Jason was very interested in claiming the jackpot.

I think after weeks of fighting he realized they had no intention of paying the jackpot to him, or anyone.  It's pretty obvious to me with the Casino Listings data + Bodogs reaction + the fact that theres tons of tiny sites that anyone can start up and they each have their own progressives worth millions of dollars that these jackpots are a fucking scam.  Nobody will ever win a glam life jackpot unless they decide to reset them.  

We don't know what Jasons life is like or how much they offered him.  Before anyone gives him shit for accepting less than the jackpot should ask themselves what would you do if they offered 10k, 20k or 30k USD. (My guess is the number was in that range)  You could take the money or tell them to fuck off and probably never see a dime. [/quote]

2) The deal Jasonort agreed is juridically not valid, because

a) A deal requires to state the deal partners and the applicable jurisdiction

b) Jasonort was extorted to accept the deal, because the operator hide his identity and he was not able to enforce his basic right to go to a court

I agree.  After I got paid I'd be posting the NDA and whatever else I wanted all over this place.  Jason shouldn't post it unless he's comfortable though.  I know a lot of people stress out big time over that kinda thing,

3) Jasonort still has the right to enforce his claim at a court of the applicable jurisdiction. But this would logically require to know it.

There are no rules or regulations that Betsoft has to follow.  No terms or conditions.  Literally none.  They answer to nobody.  The only motivation a site has to not rob their players is they might damage their reputation - which is why they sites like Betcoin and FortuneJack are spending thousands a months "advertising" on this forum yet don't spend a penny on advertising anywhere else.

4) I did not make any research so far, but there are possibly traces that could lead to the identity of the operator

a) The Winning Poker Network in Costa Rica

b) Their software provider(s) like Betsoft in Malta

c) etc...

Look into this person:


https://www.linkedin.com/in/ellisbrandi

http://www.betsoft.com/dam/jcr:286ee740-101d-4d5d-9600-61d5659fda7f/Digital_Software_Limited_RNG__Certificate.pdf

A company like Caesars would be in very big trouble with NJDGE and NVGC to put any resources into a business like Betsoft that illegally provides online gambling in NJ and NV.



In other news, I'm pretty confident we've all been misinterperting the Betsoft Jackpot tickers.  I think they are all in mBtc, not credits. (1,000 mBtc = 1 Bitcoin = $580 at the moment for the btc noobs)




It's a big deal and not a big deal at the same time since nobody is going to win them.  But technically, I think Jason's jackpot would of been BTC1,007 instead of 1,007 [.5 credits] (BTC504)

It also makes sense that since the USD versions of Betsoft Progressives list the jackpots in USD, not credits.

[CL-Ed]

In other news, I'm pretty confident we've all been misinterperting the Betsoft Jackpot tickers.  I think they are all in mBtc, not credits. (1,000 mBtc = 1 Bitcoin = $580 at the moment for the btc noobs)

I agree and I pointed this out somewhere a while ago. He should have won more than even he thought.

[jasonort]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but as I see it:
1. The forum and community backed jasonort up and helped him against the casino to get his jackpot winning.
2. jasonort in silience agreed on a deal with them, letting the crooks go free.
3. jasonort then silenced himself and didn't want to contribute anymore to the forum since he already got what he wanted.
4. jasonort is having another problem and now comes back for help?

1. That depends on what you mean by "his jackpot winning". He was not paid the jackpot. If you meant a tiny payoff that was nowhere near the full amount then carry on.

2. Agreed but I'm sure he felt that he was in a no-win situation where he could take the payoff or get nothing. I don't think any of us should judge him unless you have been in the same situation.

3. He definitely did not get what he wanted which was the jackpot that he legitimately won. The fact he has posted more recently suggests to me that the payoff has cleared and they cant hold anything against him now to keep him quiet and/or keep up the happy charade they made him play.

4. I don't see him asking for help. It appears to me that he is just trying to warn people about these crooks.

I do agree that Jason has played his cards for better or for worse. Maybe he was too quick to accept the payoff, or maybe he had no other choice. There is nothing he can do now other than to warn people. He's never going to see that jackpot money.

Correct on all counts CL-Ed.  I have pretty much given up any hope of seeing another dime from my lost jackpot.  Just wanting to warn others of the bad behavior of betcoin.ag and BetSoft.

[jasonort]

Guys, relax.

1. The graphs are accurate.
2. The bad girl was clearly locked/unwinnable no doubt about this.
3. There are still tons of sites where the jackpots are locked (so Betsoft is as active as ever with their scam), check this one out for example: https://www.7red.com/games/good_girl_bad_girl : Good Girl is 115k Bad Girl is 116k, never won.

I have a question about jasonort though.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but as I see it:
1. The forum and community backed jasonort up and helped him against the casino to get his jackpot winning.
2. jasonort in silience agreed on a deal with them, letting the crooks go free.
3. jasonort then silenced himself and didn't want to contribute anymore to the forum since he already got what he wanted.
4. jasonort is having another problem and now comes back for help?

Sorry if I'm wrong here, but if these points are true, I feel that jasonort have played all his cards. I can't understand his guts to come back as if nothing happened and ask for more help when he fu**ed the community in the first place.

I have said it to many who have helped me, but let me extend my thanks to the community.  I truly do owe a debt of gratitude to many people who helped me publicize my case.  Without their help I would have gotten nothing.  I'm not asking for anyone's help currently.  I am trying to help others avoid the issues that I went through.  The fact that you think you and the community are somehow the ones who got fu**ed here is laughable.  I'm pretty sure I'm the one who was fu**ed.

[TruthBeTold]

I have said it to many who have helped me, but let me extend my thanks to the community.  I truly do owe a debt of gratitude to many people who helped me publicize my case.  Without their help I would have gotten nothing.  I'm not asking for anyone's help currently.  I am trying to help others avoid the issues that I went through.  The fact that you think you and the community are somehow the ones who got fu**ed here is laughable.  I'm pretty sure I'm the one who was fu**ed.

Let me just leave this here (says much about your integrity)

I want to thank Betcoin.ag staff for helping me come to a resolution with BetSoft on the matter of my spin on "The Glam Life". I have said in my forum posts on bitcointalk.org and other places that my issue was with BetSoft and not Betcoin. Andrew and the staff at Betcoin.ag have always been good to me, and have continued to support me in this matter with BetSoft. They were unfortunately caught in the middle of this situation as the BetSoft slots are played directly on BetSoft servers, and they not Betcoin.ag decide the payouts for the slots. Andrew has helped to connect me with BetSoft, and today we have come to a mutually agreed upon settlement. This settlement is confidential, so please don't ask the details. I will continue to play with Betcoin.ag, and hold no ill feelings towards them, quite the contrary. I look forward to continuing my relationship with Betcoin.ag and feel very good about their actions in helping me to resolve this matter.

Jason you are as two faced as it gets. But please do continue crying .

[actmyname]

I have said it to many who have helped me, but let me extend my thanks to the community.  I truly do owe a debt of gratitude to many people who helped me publicize my case.  Without their help I would have gotten nothing.  I'm not asking for anyone's help currently.  I am trying to help others avoid the issues that I went through.  The fact that you think you and the community are somehow the ones who got fu**ed here is laughable.  I'm pretty sure I'm the one who was fu**ed.

Let me just leave this here (says much about your integrity)

I want to thank Betcoin.ag staff for helping me come to a resolution with BetSoft on the matter of my spin on "The Glam Life". I have said in my forum posts on bitcointalk.org and other places that my issue was with BetSoft and not Betcoin. Andrew and the staff at Betcoin.ag have always been good to me, and have continued to support me in this matter with BetSoft. They were unfortunately caught in the middle of this situation as the BetSoft slots are played directly on BetSoft servers, and they not Betcoin.ag decide the payouts for the slots. Andrew has helped to connect me with BetSoft, and today we have come to a mutually agreed upon settlement. This settlement is confidential, so please don't ask the details. I will continue to play with Betcoin.ag, and hold no ill feelings towards them, quite the contrary. I look forward to continuing my relationship with Betcoin.ag and feel very good about their actions in helping me to resolve this matter.

Jason you are as two faced as it gets. But please do continue crying .

Let me just highlight this:

Andrew has helped to connect me with BetSoft, and today we have come to a mutually agreed upon settlement. This settlement is confidential, so please don't ask the details.

Do you know what that means? It means he was paid to shut up and back up Betcoin (until now). He took the settlement because realistically, that was all he would have been able to get from them. And now that he is able to publicize the reality of it, he does.

Correct on all counts CL-Ed.  I have pretty much given up any hope of seeing another dime from my lost jackpot.  Just wanting to warn others of the bad behavior of betcoin.ag and BetSoft.

Well, truth be told, ignorance is bliss. So is youth.

[workharder00]

OP, how much did betcoin compensate you? Is this satisfied? I hope betsoft would pay you but they are the source, should blame betsoft

[TwitchySeal]

OP, how much did betcoin compensate you? Is this satisfied? I hope betsoft would pay you but they are the source, should blame betsoft

[game-protect]

In other news, I'm pretty confident we've all been misinterperting the Betsoft Jackpot tickers.  I think they are all in mBtc, not credits. (1,000 mBtc = 1 Bitcoin = $580 at the moment for the btc noobs)

-snip pictures-

It's a big deal and not a big deal at the same time since nobody is going to win them.  But technically, I think Jason's jackpot would of been BTC1,007 instead of 1,007 [.5 credits] (BTC504)

It also makes sense that since the USD versions of Betsoft Progressives list the jackpots in USD, not credits.

But what does this "Coin Denomination 0.50" mean? Does it mean 1,007 x 0.5 = 504 BTC?

http://imgur.com/a/hx7Ht

[mat420]

In other news, I'm pretty confident we've all been misinterperting the Betsoft Jackpot tickers.  I think they are all in mBtc, not credits. (1,000 mBtc = 1 Bitcoin = $580 at the moment for the btc noobs)

-snip pictures-

It's a big deal and not a big deal at the same time since nobody is going to win them.  But technically, I think Jason's jackpot would of been BTC1,007 instead of 1,007 [.5 credits] (BTC504)

It also makes sense that since the USD versions of Betsoft Progressives list the jackpots in USD, not credits.

But what does this "Coin Denomination 0.50" mean? Does it mean 1,007 x 0.5 = 504 BTC?

http://imgur.com/a/hx7Ht

yes you are correct say 0.02 X 30lines x 5 coins per line max bet would be 3mBtc per spin
0.50 X30lines X 5 coins per line would be 75 mBtc per spin
1000 mBtc = 1 Btc

[game-protect]

OP, how much did betcoin compensate you? Is this satisfied? I hope betsoft would pay you but they are the source, should blame betsoft

Based on what should Betsoft pay Jasonort?

What is the agreement between Betcoin and Betsoft? Betcoin state only a juridical not valid agreement between victims and the domain betcoin.ag, not one word about Betsoft.

The licensing rule usually says:

A website which allows the player to begin gambling is offering the service. A web page may source it’s games from a variety of providers.

[cjmoles]

And, the odds against hitting the "Bad Girl" jackpots are much greater than the odds against hitting the "Good Girl" jackpots; that's why the smaller, "Good Girl," jackpots were hit most often.  Furthermore, nothing in the data demonstrates that everybody was playing for the larger jackpot; in fact, the data shows quite the opposite; there were MANY people playing for the smaller, much easier to trigger, "Good Girl" jackpots, and fewer players playing for the larger, much harder to trigger, "Bad Girl" jackpots.

Nothing proves the chance for hitting the "Bad Girl" jackpots are lower. In fact, you even state, "there were MANY people playing for the smaller... "Good Girl" jackpots". Don't you think that the Good Girl jackpots were hit because they were played more often, rather than the odds being lower?

Furthermore, why are you using information from a source you've deemed wrong? We've already shown the graphs were from Casinolistings, and their data.

Also, you want to notice how Bovada has no recorded wins for 5 cent, 10 cent, 25 cent, and $1? (Like shown on the graph)

Good job switching the topic from Greedy Goblins' contradiction with Betcoin ToS to now just BetSoft issues, which you for some reason are refuting.


Last thing to point out: previously you were saying that people would rather pay for the larger jackpot. Well, then why would it be that the data shows more have gone for the two cent games instead of the higher coin games?

Greedy Goblins has nothing to do with anything here.  The game in question was the "Glam Life."  Somebody else (I wonder Who) is the person who switched the topic to "Greedy Goblins" in an attempt to manipulate the facts.  The terms associated with "Greedy Goblins" has nothing to do with the "The Glam Life."

And, no I didn't say people would play for the "larger jackpot," I tried to say that intelligent people will play for the jackpot that has the best value....the best return for their investment.  If the lower paying jackpot has better expected value (EV) then intelligent people will play that mode and vice versa.  It's math.


And, data and interpretation of data are two different things....I don't have any evidence that the data is wrong; in fact, I actually trust casinolistings motivations....I have a problem with the interpretation of the data and the methodology employed in the study.  I'm not sure, but I am surmising the data was collected by scraping the jackpot figures from a user account and then importing them into graphing software....Now, that may be practical but it's far from perfect because there are factors such as downtimes, lags, unknown contributions, ...etc which the graphing software has to extrapolate to maintain a smooth graph.  So, while I don't doubt the integrity of the casinolisting's data, nor their motivation (per se), I do have a problem with the conclusiveness of the interpretation because there are too many unknown factors that are adjusted for by assumption.

--snip--

cjmoles

Please look at my first post in this thread.  Look at the screenshots of my spin, of the paytable at the time of the spin, and at the proof that TwitchySeal provided proving that Betcoin adjusted their TOS after the fact to account for the free spins round.  After looking this over answer this question for me:  Should I have been paid the jackpot?  All of this debate about statistics is confusing and can be interpreted a million different ways.  But my spin is simple.  Either it should have won or it shouldn't.  If your answer is that it should have won, then Betsoft is scamming players and stealing their money.  And Betcoin by not standing up for their player and continuing to use this software is complicit in this scam. 

I don't pay any attention to TwitchySeal's proofs unless the sources are cited and referenced because he has a tendency at photo-shopping evidence and manipulating facts. 

But, to answer your questions: Betcoin changed their terms to comply with the terms that Betsoft clarified to negate future misinterpretations....They didn't change them to screw you out of your claim which you had already made and recorded; they didn't have to give you anything.  Should they have not clarified the rules so others could fall subject to the same conflict?  Your claim was that you should've won the jackpot on the "freespin" because they never said that it wasn't possible.  The "real" question here is whether or not a "freespin" can be interpreted as "maximum bet spin."  It is obvious that "freespin" wasn't intended to imply "max bet spin" because it wasn't coded into the software or the jackpot would've dropped.  Your problem was with the interpretation of the rules....not that you had won the jackpot and they didn't pay you.  Betcoin has to comply with the rules of the Betsoft game; they don't have the power to change Betsoft's rules, even if they wanted to change them.  You didn't win the jackpot but they paid you something out of their own pocket because of the confusion.  That jackpot is not the casino's to give away, it belongs to the players who contributed to it and it would've been wrong for them to give it to you because everybody else who contributed to it, and played by the rules, would've been wronged and could've made their own claim.

There are numerous reasons why "freespin" and "max bet spin" have different meanings.  One has to do with the contributions the two add to the jackpot, another has to do with how taxes are kept and reported, and so forth.  Should you pay taxes on free things?  Should non-contributing spins qualify....etc.  All of these factors must be taken into account when deciding if the term "free" is synonymous with the term "maximum."  The rules clearly stated that only "max bet spins" qualify....and "freespin" does not fall under the definition of a "max bet spin."

Yes, I can see how it can be confusing because the "freespin" was triggered as the result of a "max bet spin" and that's why they clarified the language, but considering all the factors involved in differentiating the two terms, it's obvious that "freespin" was never meant to be interpreted as a "max bet spin."

[TwitchySeal]

I have no idea what those graphs are, or where they came from because you do not cite a source; therefore, I cannot give you an opinion on the accuracy of the data.

Oh.  You should really read this thread where they discuss the details of how they figured out the Betsoft Jackpots are rigged.

I assumed you had educated yourself on casinolistings.com


Over a month ago I told you:

If you want to understand the whole story, read this entire thread, all 3 pages, where a user brought the issue up, and how the owner went about investigating it :https://www.casinolistings.com/forum/gambling/online-casinos/28043/questioning-betsoft-jackpots
Also, before questioning the integrity of the investigation, take a look into the history of CasinoListings.com

Your response made it seem like you probably didn't read it yet, so I asked again:






Then you didn't respond at all, so I reminded you again:

CJ, i put a lot of effort into responding to you, hoping you would read it.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1236667.msg15575734#msg15575734
Did you?  

You really should have done more research.
Did you know that they track over 700 online progressive jackpots? https://www.casinolistings.com/jackpots/progressives
That they have been in the business for 10+ years and seem to be pretty respected within the online casino industry?

[TwitchySeal]

the player has the option of choosing which jackpot to play which also eliminates the possibility that the other jackpot could be won.  And, if one or the other jackpot is such that it has a higher expected return than the other, then that's the one that will be chosen.  Once it's chosen, the other jackpot cannot be won.

CJmoles thinks the reason one jackpot is never won is because everyone chooses to play for the other jackpot instead.

Anybody with half a mutant brain cell would choose the mode that had the highest jackpot....Especially those who are spending thousands of dollars in max bets to hit the jackpot.  If you had a choice to spend 5 to win 10, or 5 to win 5000.....would you still choose to spend 5 to win 10?  

people were playing in "Bad Girl" mode because the jackpots were higher.  

Players had the choice to play in the mode which they thought would be most profitable to them and when they did that it excluded the possibility that the other event could occur

He thinks everyone just picked whichever mode had the highest jackpot, resulting in the other mode never hitting.

Cj, How do you explain the smaller jackpot (the one nobody is choosing) getting hit over 100 times while not a single person wins the big jackpot that everyone picks?

I don't pay any attention to TwitchySeal's proofs unless the sources are cited and referenced

Note: all the data I've provided says "Casinolistings.com" on it.

[cjmoles]

I have no idea what those graphs are, or where they came from because you do not cite a source; therefore, I cannot give you an opinion on the accuracy of the data.

Oh.  You should really read this thread where they discuss the details of how they figured out the Betsoft Jackpots are rigged.

I assumed you had educated yourself on casinolistings.com


Over a month ago I told you:

If you want to understand the whole story, read this entire thread, all 3 pages, where a user brought the issue up, and how the owner went about investigating it :https://www.casinolistings.com/forum/gambling/online-casinos/28043/questioning-betsoft-jackpots
Also, before questioning the integrity of the investigation, take a look into the history of CasinoListings.com

Your response made it seem like you probably didn't read it yet, so I asked again:






Then you didn't respond at all, so I reminded you again:

CJ, i put a lot of effort into responding to you, hoping you would read it.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=1236667.msg15575734#msg15575734
Did you?  

You really should have done more research.
Did you know that they track over 700 online progressive jackpots? https://www.casinolistings.com/jackpots/progressives
That they have been in the business for 10+ years and seem to be pretty respected within the online casino industry?

Twitchy....I did the research...I just don't trust your screenshots because I know for a fact you photo-shop images so I don't even look at them. If you would cite the source that would be different.  You still didn't cite the source that demonstrates that "over 100 jackpots were won while nobody was playing them"....That is just a blatant fabrication and your information cannot be trusted.  And, if you're claiming that casinolisting's is making that claim then reference that source so that I can look at the data that supports their claim.

EDIT:  And see there you go spamming your garbage, bumping nonsense posts, to manipulate the truth....Whatever dude....you guy's are too much.  Why dilute the truth?  Why not use reason instead of lies?

[TwitchySeal]

Oh.  You should really read this thread where they discuss the details of how they figured out the Betsoft Jackpots are rigged.

Thats where the data is posted.

[cjmoles]

Oh.  You should really read this thread where they discuss the details of how they figured out the Betsoft Jackpots are rigged.

Thats where the data is posted.

You are lying....I read that and it does not demonstrate that over 100 jackpots were won while nobody was playing.  You are lying again.

[TwitchySeal]

Oh.  You should really read this thread where they discuss the details of how they figured out the Betsoft Jackpots are rigged.

Thats where the data is posted.

You are lying....I read that and it does not demonstrate that over 100 jackpots were won while nobody was playing.  You are lying again.

I am not lying.  I haven't claimed it demonstrated that.  Again, I am not lying.

[cjmoles]

Oh.  You should really read this thread where they discuss the details of how they figured out the Betsoft Jackpots are rigged.

Thats where the data is posted.

You are lying....I read that and it does not demonstrate that over 100 jackpots were won while nobody was playing.  You are lying again.

I am not lying.  I haven't claimed it demonstrated that.  Again, I am not lying.

No?

Cj, How do you explain the smaller jackpot (the one nobody is choosing) getting hit over 100 times while not a single person wins the big jackpot that everyone picks?

That is very strange, indeed, if nobody picks it, yet it is won over 100 times!  It doesn't seem like it it should be won at all if it wasn't played....Something's obviously wrong with that data too.

Do you think there's any possibility that these two graphs are accurate or no?

^^^^^^^
Couldn't delete this one?

[TwitchySeal]

Oh.  You should really read this thread where they discuss the details of how they figured out the Betsoft Jackpots are rigged.

Thats where the data is posted.

You are lying....I read that and it does not demonstrate that over 100 jackpots were won while nobody was playing.  You are lying again.

I am not lying.  I haven't claimed it demonstrated that.  Again, I am not lying.

No?

Cj, How do you explain the smaller jackpot (the one nobody is choosing) getting hit over 100 times while not a single person wins the big jackpot that everyone picks?

That is very strange, indeed, if nobody picks it, yet it is won over 100 times!  It doesn't seem like it it should be won at all if it wasn't played....Something's obviously wrong with that data too.

Do you think there's any possibility that these two graphs are accurate or no?

^^^^^^^
Couldn't delete this one?

The graph does not demonstrate that over 100 jackpots were won while nobody was playing - and I didn't claim it did.

[TwitchySeal]

Pehaps you should ask Ed to explain it to you...again.

[TwitchySeal]

Oh.  You should really read this thread where they discuss the details of how they figured out the Betsoft Jackpots are rigged.

Yes please do. If you do you'll see I was initially skeptical.

In fact reading it back now to my eternal shame I sounded a bit like cjmoles at the time. How embarrassing!  

[cjmoles]

But, to answer your questions: Betcoin changed their terms...

You are lying...

Betcoin has no legally binding agreement, as I already explained to you several times!

Betcoin has also no Terms of Service, because the contract partners and the applicable jurisdiction is missing.

...to comply with the terms that Betsoft clarified

You are lying...

Betsoft has no terms, there are no terms stated at their website.

to negate future misinterpretations....

You are lying...

There are no misinterpretations possible!

It is clearly stated:

betsoft.com

Features: 5 jackpot symbols on max bet wins the JACKPOT!

...they didn't have to give you anything.

You are lying...

They owe him the jackpot!

Should they have not clarified the rules so others could fall subject to the same conflict?

Rules of a slot have to be stated directly at the paytable of that game. Stating rules of a certain game in the juridical not valid general Terms of Service section is not in accordance with consumer protection laws.

Your claim was that you should've won the jackpot on the "freespin" because they never said that it wasn't possible.  The "real" question here is whether or not a "freespin" can be interpreted as "maximum bet spin."

You are lying...

The only relevant question is, was it 5 jackpot symbols on max bet?

It is obvious that "freespin" wasn't intended to imply "max bet spin" because it wasn't coded into the software or the jackpot would've dropped.

You are lying...

There is nothing stated that implies that "freespin" max bets would be not considered as max bets!

If you interact with anonymous criminals, a jackpot not dropping means nothing at all.    

Your problem was with the interpretation of the rules....not that you had won the jackpot and they didn't pay you.

You are lying...

The rules are clearly stated: 5 jackpot symbols on max bet wins the JACKPOT!

He 100% sure and clear won the jackpot. There is no way Betcoin or Betsoft would win this case at a court.

Betcoin has to comply with the rules of the Betsoft game; they don't have the power to change Betsoft's rules, even if they wanted to change them.  

This is correct. The rules of the game are stated in the paytable and as the Betsoft games are running on the Betsoft servers, Betcoin can not change them, even if they wanted to change them.

You didn't win the jackpot...

You are lying...

He 100% sure and clear won the jackpot. See above...

...but they paid you something out of their own pocket because of the confusion.

Ahh, good to know that Betcoin or Betsoft pay something out of their pocket, as soon as there is confusion. So instead of trying to win, simple create confusion to fill your pockets. LMAO    

That jackpot is not the casino's to give away, it belongs to the players who contributed to it...

You are lying...

As soon as a player made the bet, he is no longer the owner of the contribution. If, according to your lie, the contributions would still belong to them, then they could demand them back at any time...

...and it would've been wrong for them to give it to you because everybody else who contributed to it, and played by the rules, would've been wronged and could've made their own claim.

It is wrong to give the jackpot to the winner? But it is correct to put the jackpot into the pockets of the criminal operators, right?

There are numerous reasons why "freespin" and "max bet spin" have different meanings

You are lying...

The paytable did not differentiate between max bet and "freespin" max bet!

One has to do with the contributions the two add to the jackpot,...

How much do "freespin" max bets add to the jackpot? And where is the proof of how much they contribute?

 

...another has to do with how taxes are kept and reported, and so forth.

You are lying...

Anonymous criminals do not pay taxes, especially Bitcoin only sites. LMAO  

Should non-contributing spins qualify....etc.

Where is it stated that "freespin" max bets do not contribute?  

All of these factors must be taken into account when deciding if the term "free" is synonymous with the term "maximum."

Yes, If you won max bets, then they are synonymous with the term "maximum".

The rules clearly stated that only "max bet spins" qualify....and "freespin" does not fall under the definition of a "max bet spin."

You are lying...

Max bet "freespins" of course fall under the definition of "max bet spin". They are "free" for you because you won them, but they are still max bets, obviously.

Yes, I can see how it can be confusing because the "freespin" was triggered as the result of a "max bet spin" and that's why they clarified the language, but considering all the factors involved in differentiating the two terms, it's obvious that "freespin" was never meant to be interpreted as a "max bet spin."

You are lying...

The rules are clearly stated: 5 jackpot symbols on max bet wins the JACKPOT!

And there was no differentiation of the kind of the max bets.  


I would not deposit one cent to a site that pays liars to lie!

Dude, you're a thief and liar....nobody would want to play with you anyway.  And, if your university taught you that "max" and "free" were synonyms, then I'd start thinking about suing them instead of burning honest people out of their income.

"The rules are clearly stated: '5 jackpot symbols on max bet wins the JACKPOT!'"  <--- where does that clearly state that 5 jackpot symbols on a freespin wins the jackpot?  I think that it states that "5 yachts on a max bet spin wins the jackpot."  So, who's lying?  "Free" does not have the same meaning as "maximum."

[cjmoles]

Dude, you're a thief and liar....

How much I have stolen and from whom?

nobody would want to play with you anyway.

I do not offer to play with me. You probably meant nobody want to play with the Betcoin scam...

And, if your university taught you that "max" and "free" were synonyms, then I'd start thinking about suing them instead of burning honest people out of their income.

The contract laws taught me that a max bet is either a direct bet or a won bet.

LMAO, please explain how you could sue an anonymous operator like Betcoin?

"The rules are clearly stated: '5 jackpot symbols on max bet wins the JACKPOT!'"  <--- where does that clearly state that 5 jackpot symbols on a freespin wins the jackpot?

Nowhere! Because it is irrelevant...

The key point is 5 yachts on a "max bet" and this totally independant of whether you won the "max bet" or you paid the "max bet" directy.

But as you lie about "freespin", you obviously do not speak about the game "the Glam Life", because there it is called:

Features: "the Glam Life"

3 or more Match bonus symbols on an active payline awards the on-reels bonus game

I think that it states that "5 yachts on a max bet spin wins the jackpot."  So, who's lying?  "Free" does not have the same meaning as "maximum."

It does not play any role what liars think, however, the word spin and the word "Free" are not mentioned:

Features: "the Glam Life"

5 jackpot symbols on max bet wins the JACKPOT!

-> your creation of "max bet spin is a lie, as well as your creation of "Free" a lie is 


What a shame of a site that has to pay liars to lie, in an attempt to draw customers in!

How could anybody take anything you say seriously.....you are about as dumb as a box of rocks!  You aren't educated dude....STFU....LOL

[TwitchySeal]

Jasonort didn't win the jackpot....jasonort's claim was that he should have won the jackpot because it wasn't clarified anywhere that "freespin" wasn't equivalent to "maxbet spin" on a bonus round.  If the jackpot was won, it would have dropped....it didn't because "freespin" does not equal "max bet" in the coding.  Claiming that he did win it is a misrepresentation of the facts because the argument was that he should have won it because it wasn't explained that "freespins" didn't qualify as a "max bet."  Try to think about this objectively: what if there was a similar instance in one of the games at moneypot where a player claimed he should have won the jackpot because the rules were ambiguous....should the investors pay the player anyway based on the player's subjective interpretation, even though the event wasn't coded into the software?  If the terms were ambiguous enough to create conflict, should the moneypot investors request the terms be clarified to avoid similar conflicts in the future?  Either way one slices it...."free" and "maximum" are antonyms and not synonyms....so the interpretation was more of a reach than not.

I disagree with most of the things you wrote there. I could go through and reply line by line but I've seen others attempt to do that and it doesn't work out well.

I'll dip my toe in the water with your most obvious incorrect statement:

> "free" and "maximum" are antonyms

The antonym of "maximum" is "minimum". You really cannot believe that those two words are antonyms. Can you?

Twitchy misrepresented the facts by mixing terms associated with other games (Greedy Goblins) into the argument with the game in question (The Glam Life)....that's deception.  He also photo-shops images....that's also deception....he consistently trolls and manipulates the facts to meet his agenda.  Are we trying to be truthful and objective here or are we bandwagoning to suit our interests?

I don't think Twitchy ever claimed that the rules for one game were the rules for another game. If he did, perhaps you could quote the post where he did so. Making all these accusations with nothing to back them up adds nothing to the argument. You say he multi-accounts, he says "only to chat and post", you let the thread drop, but go back to accusing him of multi-accounting. It's the same with each of your accusations. You accuse, he defends, you ignore his defense and go back to step 1. Try harder.

I've had good experiences with betcoin. I'm something like 10 BTC up there and didn't have any trouble withdrawing my winnings.

I've also had bad experiences with betcoin. Their customer support is among the worst I have ever experienced. Tickets go ignored for months at a time.

[TwitchySeal]

https://www.betcoin.ag/files/betcoin/assets/video/trailer.mp4

The video that now runs full window backround on betcoin.ag homepage^^^
(it's a bunch of clips from BetsoftGaming slots with hype music)https://www.betcoin.ag/

Saw everything from all the games except the yacht symbol.

[TwitchySeal]

So I noticed Betcoin recently added a new game to their collection.  For some reason they didn't spam the big news like they normally would...I wonder why?

Oh, maybe because it's basically just glam life part 2.

MEGA GLAMLIFE!


In this game you can win a big jackpot in a bonus round, even if it's triggered by free-spins.

Come out Cjmoles.  You've been hiding long enough.


Come out Cjmoles.  You've been hiding long enough.

[actmyname]

So I noticed Betcoin recently added a new game to their collection.  For some reason they didn't spam the big news like they normally would...I wonder why?

Oh, maybe because it's basically just glam life part 2.

MEGA GLAMLIFE!


In this game you can win a big jackpot in a bonus round, even if it's triggered by free-spins.

[img]

Come out Cjmoles.  You've been hiding long enough.

What's likely to happen is that the response would be, "they are different games so they must have different rules" and then there would just be nonstop ad hominem and character attacks that lead to nothing but more payments for him...

That is, if he were to come back and argue for Betcoin. I doubt it, though. Unfortunately, people still play at Betsoft even now because of the entertainment value... even though slots are the worst games to play, and doubly so when they're run by scammers.


Regardless, wasn't it already defined that Betcoin had lied about the ToS update date, changed the rules, and Betsoft had the game rules changed as well just to avoid paying out? There's nothing more to discuss, apart from trying to convince people to stop advertising the website.

[game-protect]

Who owes the jackpot?

A) betcoin.ag crystal clear owe the jackpot, because

1) The operator of betcoin.ag is the contract partner of the players

2) Player logged in and played with the betcoin.ag casino client

3) Jackpot winner deposited money to betcoin.ag

4) The juridical not valid Terms of Service on betcoin.ag website do not state one word about that Betsoft scam collect the jackpot contributions and is responsible for payment

B) The Betsoft scam also owe the jackpot, because

1) They cooperate with the publicly proven betcoin.ag scam = criminal offense. And when you cooperate with criminals, then you are liable for the damage occured

2) Progressive jackpots usually run in all online casinos connected to Betsoft scam gaming software. Hence Betsoft collect the “the Glam Life” jackpot contributions from all connected casinos. If the jackpot hit in casino XY, then Betsoft send the money to XY and XY give the money to the winner.

[game-protect]

ThePogg declared the exorted and juridical not existing "settlement" as a resolved case. I informed them, with all relevant info, that this case is not resolved, but they did not publicise my post and they did not use my info to rework their statement.

http://thepogg.com/complaint/betcoin-ag-progressive-jackpot-was-not-paid-for-winning-spin/

[revv]

I just want to share my experience with playing at Betcoin.ag I was playing live roulette and bet a little over 1 BTC on BLACK and the ball landed on BLACK but I lost and when I told support about it they said everything was fine and basically ignored me, I asked for proof but didn't give me any and shortly after this they took down live casinos and later on brought them back...

I still cannot believe something like this actually happened very disappointed they owe me 2+btc

[game-protect]

ThePOGG false and misleading advised Jasonort to either take the 50 BTC offered or get nothing!

But Game Protect offers to enforce the remaining 450 BTC on a 50:50 no cure no pay basis!

So Jasonort either will get another 225 BTC or everything will remain like it is.

Do you think Jasonort should give it try?

[yahoo62278]

ThePOGG false and misleading advised Jasonort to either take the 50 BTC offered or get nothing!

But Game Protect offers to enforce the remaining 450 BTC on a 50:50 no cure no pay basis!

So Jasonort either will get another 225 BTC or everything will remain like it is.

Do you think Jasonort should give it try?

I think you should stop bumping 2+ year old topics man. This topic has ran its course and needs locked.

[game-protect]

I think you should stop bumping 2+ year old topics man. This topic has ran its course and needs locked.

I did not ask if you think the thread should be locked!

I asked if you think Jasonort should join the 50:50 no cure no pay collection?